Synthetic motor oil

ruking1

..."Subaru recommends that the engine oil and filter be changed every 3,750 miles"...

Being used to 25,000 miles OCI's (turbo diesel), that would certainly be cause enough for me to skip a turbo charged (gasser) Subaru.

ralph1970

- - The above statement is basically true in North America; not so in Europe.

What is the definition of synthetic oil in europe?

- - To narrow your brush stroke a bit for the VW/Audi world, only the 1.8T motor is known to make sludge (and only when non-502.00 certified oils are used). As for the Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep world, the only one of their engines that is a known slugger is the 2.7 liter V6.

My point is that you can not have the same extended OCI for all cars. You need to consider the car, how you drive, and the oil used. I believe that all cars can produce sludge and some of the engines of cars I listed have been reported to be prone to having problems with sludge.

Some I understand even had problems with the OEM oil. Did any have problems with synthetic oil? I don't know.

These cars need have oil changes at regular drain intervals established by the OEM to reduce the likelihood of sludge formation, and to insure the OEM honors any extended warranty.

ralph1970

--Being used to 25,000 miles OCI's (turbo diesel), that would certainly be cause enough for me to skip a turbo charged (gasser) Subaru.

I have heard that some owners are just removing the screen. We are trying a 15K extended OCI with 100% synthetic oil and a good oil filter.

In the future to meet government fuel economy and emission standards, I think more engines will be turbo. I consider all turbo engines as severe service and would not exceed 15,000 miles a year without an UOA.

shipo

"What is the definition of synthetic oil in europe?"

In Europe (and elsewhere), the oil must be a Group IV or Group V classification to be legally considered a synthetic oil.

"Some I understand even had problems with the OEM oil. Did any have problems with synthetic oil? I don't know."

I'm familiar with the VW 1.8T issue, and have yet to see a single documented case where an owner ran the recommended 502.00 oil for the recommended 5.000 mile OCI, and had a sludge issue. That said, many-many dealerships and quick lube places completely ignored VW's 502.00 recommendation and used bulk conventional oil (Quaker State and Pennzoil seemed to be common). In those cases, when owners with sludged engines showed documentation of timely oil changes, especially in the dealership service department, they got a new engine.

Regarding the Chrysler 2.7 and the Toyota engines, I've never seen a documented case of sludging when synthetic oil (even a Group III wannabe synthetic) was used. FWIW, both my mother and my mother-in-law have Toyotas with engines that are known sludgers, and in both cars I use oil that meets the VW 502.00 oil specification, and in both cases, the engines are clean as the proverbial whistle under the valve covers.

Best regards,
Shipo

krzyss

Clogging of 'banjo filter' in oil path to turbocharger is a direct cause of turbo failure but I am not sure this is root cause of the problem.
You see, you need stuff to block it first (like sludge) for it to be a problem. Removing filter will only let the clogging develop somewhere else, IMHO.

I believe that primary issue is that SOA is recommending underspecified oil, similar to using non 502.00 oil in VW engine. Yes it may work when you cut OCI in half (this is what SOA solution to problem is) but better oil may let you use original OCI (7500).

Krzys

jeffyscott

"Subaru recommends that the engine oil and filter be changed every 3,750 miles or 3-3/4 months"

3-3/4 months, that seems excessively precise. Not 4 months, but 3.75...really?

shipo

Given that VW is now recommending OCIs of 10,000 miles here in North America on their turbocharged models (with the required 502.00 oil), and closer to 20,000 miles in Europe (their models use Oil Life Monitors so the OCI varies) where VW calls for the new(ish) low SAPS 506.xx and 507.xx oil, it stands to reason that Subaru should simply require oil that is certified to meet the VW standards and go back to a more reasonable 7,500 (or even 10,000) mile OCI. If Subaru doesn't want to make it appear like they're riding on VWs coattails, they can do what BMW and Mercedes-Benz have done and publish their own oil specifications that effectively mimic the VWs standards.

Best regards,
Shipo

colloquor

I either still own, or owned, two of the marques listed as prone to sludge - Dodge and SAAB. The Dodge was a '94 Grand Caravan ES w/3.3L V6 using Mobil 1 5W-30. Absolutely no sludge at the 164K mile point when I sold it. The '85 SAAB 900 w/2.0L non-turbo engine using Valvoline 10W30 dino oil. Also, no sludge at the 312,000 mile point, and it's still going like the Energizer bunny. 3K OCI's on both.

shipo

"The Dodge was a '94 Grand Caravan ES w/3.3L V6 using Mobil 1 5W-30. Absolutely no sludge at the 164K mile point when I sold it."

I ran our 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.8 for 170,000 miles with Mobil 1 0W-40 and ten to twelve thousand mile oil change intervals, and when I sold it, the engine was as clean inside as it was the day I drove the van off the showroom floor. Say what you will about the Dodge, that engine (the 3.3 and 3.8 twins) was and still is seriously robust.

Best regards,
Shipo

xwesx

I'll second that. The 3.8L is a fantastic engine!

krzyss

3 and 3/4 is precisely 1/2 of 7.5 that was required before change.

Krzys

wtd44

And this engine is running great in our 2007 Jeep GC. From the anecdotes I see above, I don't think I have any reason to worry. Our 2009 Pontiac Vibe, with the Toyota 2.4 I4-- Should I worry? :confuse:

ralph1970

The problem with the Lexus/Toyota was with the 1997-2002 3.0L V6 (IMZ)

ralph1970

The Saab problem I read was the 2.0L 4-cyl Turbo 2000-2003 and 2.3L 4cyl Turbo 1999-2003.

shipo

Ummm, I'm trying to figure out what TSB 09-05-00 has to do with oil sludge. FWIW, that TSB deals with a leaking intake manifold pan gasket, a failure that is often caused by failure to service the PCV valve, which in turn can cause the crank case and valve covers to pressurize. Once a leak in the gasket starts, then the air/fuel ratio is altered and detonation can result.

Long story short, the 3.9, 5.2 and 5.9 liter engines (which are a very old and very-very durable design dating back to the mid 1960s) are not known sludgers, even when abused with poor service.

Best regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

I guess subaru is just odd that way then. I had never before heard of time based OCIs like their's...7.5 months, 3.75 months. I have only ever seen 3, 4, 6, or 12 months.

ruking1

I hope I am not covering old ground for the non turbo owner types, but turbos mated to gassers have their own unique heat dissipation issues, non sludging oil being a very important part.

On the other hand, turbos mated to diesels (TDI's) seem to have a more harmonious time of it, if my 25,000 miles OCI's are a reflection. Sump refill size is app 4.5 qt including cartridge filter change (steel casing is part of the engine)

Mr_Shiftright

a turbo, a diesel and an automatic transmission are a marriage made in heaven, if you wanted to pick out the best possible combination of compatible characteristics, IMO.

ruking1

For the longest time, I thought the loss of mpg with an automatic transmission (on your above) that combination was a deal breaker. In fact, when it came time to buy an 03 TDI with automatic transmission, I bought a (gasser) 04 Honda Civic instead.

F/F (6 MY's) to the 6 spd, DSG (2009 VW JETTA) or direct shift gearbox and now I agree with your assessment !! There still is maybe 1 to ...2 mpg max LOSS, but it is far better than the "slush box" es losses.

Mr_Shiftright

I would think that most drivers of stickshift diesels, unless they are particularly skillful or aware, burn up more gas than automatics by over-revving the diesel past its optimum power range.

beancountant

I've read all the benefits of Synthetic Oil, Now I could'nt buy Mobil 1 since it was out of stock, my question is: Does the Valvoline "SuperSyn" 5w-20 or full synthetic protect your engine up to 10K miles just as good as the Mobil1, without resorting to a Oil analysis?? Also, how does Pennzoil Platinum or Synthetic and the Walmart Synthetic (it's only made in 5W-30 & 10w-30) Brand compare. One Manager said that the W :confuse Walmart brand is probably Valvoline made or Mobil, he says they switch among manufacturers. :confuse:

ruking1

Assuming all 5w20 offerings meet those specifications, the shorter answer is... absolutely YES.

5w20 specifications are actually a set of more robust specifications than the 5w30 & 10w30 (overall) . For my .02 cents if I had a 5w20 specified for the car, I would used it (I actually interchange 0w20 also) and NOT 5w30 and/or 10w30.

The house brand (SuperTech) WalMart is run in the lowest bidder format. It is probably awarded among different manufacturers. So it very well could be Valvoline or Mobil (Exxon Mobil makes more conventional oil than synthetic, or... or.

the_big_al

It may have changed, but when I worked at Wal-mart years ago and made a trip to Bentonville, Arkansas, I participated in some training pertaining to their Tire and Lube Express Centers. I think it was there that I discovered that the house brand Super-Tech is made by Quaker-state/Pennzoil. That was for the dino oil. I would assume that the synthetic is also, but who knows?? It could have also changed since then as this was several years ago (like 2003 I think).

wtd44

Aaaaaaaaaaah... The savings possibilities...

ruking1

This might be off topic of synthetic oil and its benefits, but I have no issues at all using SuperTech oil filters, which up until I bought the last batch was made by Champion Labs.

wtd44

Uuuuuuuuuuuh oh!

Who's making them now? :confuse:

ruking1

I would assume the same. But I have several more years left on shelf. :shades: They were like $2.12 per unit?

wtd44

I just hope that Champion Labs still have the filter contract for house brand oil filters at Walmart. Their standards for quality have long impressed me.

ruking1

I hope by now we have taken some of the "voo doo" and fear and myths out of synthetic oils.

beancountant

Mr. Shipo, I need your shoulders to cry on (sob,sob). I shared w/ a car salesman friend that I'm switching my cars to Synthetic oil because of the protection and economy after doing research with 6-7 websites incl. forums. He said he sticks to dino for whatever reason he says.
This leads me to a situation where late model cars, newer Hondas and Pontiac G6 (GM requires 7500 OCI) have a meter that says how many miles before a change oil is required or how much % before such car needs an oil change. Well w/ Synthetic, will the meter be the same 7,500 OCI or Not. Will the meter state a longer OCI?? :confuse: Since reading your former advise to me about 10K to 15K Syn OCI, what should you do if you own such late model cars. Other Oil experts pls. feel free to post your valued advise/ recommendations.

shipo

At this point in time, Oil Life Monitors (OLMs) are not smart enough to distinguish between the ultra cheap oil and high quality synthetic. They are programmed to assume that you're using an oil of a certain grade and quality, and that is what it will report on. Said another way, if your car comes with an OLM that is programmed to recommend an oil change after say, 7,500 miles of "average driving", and you do in fact drive it "averagely" but have a high quality synthetic oil in the engine, it will still recommend an oil change every 7,500 miles.

As for what I would do (and am doing with my new car), is to use synthetic oil and then, for the duration of the warranty, stay within the oil change guidelines as outlined by the manufacturer. During that time I can have a few UOAs run at my leisure and be ready to extend the time between changes accordingly when the warranty expires.

Best regards,
Shipo

beancountant

This is Astounding!! I viewed the technical specs of top rated motor oils 5w-20 and 5w-30 Synthetic and Regular oil and the Viscosity Index 150-160 for reg., 160-170 for Syn.,flash point was 390's -440's for reg., Noack was 13-15 for reg., same for Syn., TBN was 8 for reg. same for Syn., HTHS and CCS was identical !!

I went to http://themotoroilevaluator.com/ website (feel free to go to the website),
to view the ratings of almost all motor oils sold. Does this mean that Regular Oil is as good as Synthetic oil?? Or, for some specs. like the Viscosity Index, its taken when oil is new but degrades over time, such that both may have close specs when new but Synthetic is far going to outlast regular oil after 7k, 8k or 10k miles, hence the choice of motor oil for each persons use. I welcome any input on this for the benefit of everyone.

imidazol97

Why does it keep going to an Amsoil dealer form? is the site put out by Amsoil?
Not going to be very unbiased in that case.

beancountant

Yes, but Amsoil has a person that performs the test independent of Amsoil. Having some regular oil compete w/ synthetic oil does not help Amsoil's case (mainly sells synthetic) but is only the truth. If the Amsoil comes out, just click the back button and try the site again, you'll be prompted to register.

shipo

Given Amsoil's deceptive marketing practices and their abhorrent marketing model, I long ago came to the conclusion that any shred of information that was even remotely associated with the Amsoil name, was highly suspect and easily dismissed.

In my mind at least, Amsoil = Scamzoil. :P

beancountant

I'm not a fan of Amsoil too, but don't throw the Baby out with the bath water. If regular oil technical specs. such as Viscosity Index, Flashpoint, TBN, Cold crank stimulator, Noack Volatility test, etc. comes close to synthetic oil, what does that mean?? Does it mean that if your OCI is less than 5k, you can use Regular oil, and over this you should use Synthetic. or If your OCI is 10K or less then you can use Regular oil? Perhaps my first question should be, do you think the Tech. specs of regular oil comes close to Synthetic oil is correct?? We're not talking of Amsoil here only between Regular and Synthetic.

shipo

"I'm not a fan of Amsoil too, but don't throw the Baby out with the bath water. If regular oil technical specs. such as Viscosity Index, Flashpoint, TBN, Cold crank stimulator, Noack Volatility test, etc. comes close to synthetic oil, what does that mean??"

What does it mean? Other than the Noack (which I'm surprised about), nothing at all. New conventional oil of any given grade will have virtually identical properties as new synthetic oil. That said, if you test them 5,000 miles later, the results will tell a much different tale.

As for what should one do if they're using short OCIs, most individuals who are conversant on the subject, myself included, recommend that for folks running three to five thousand mile OCIs, they should stick with conventional oil, using synthetic is simply a waste of money (unless they have some other need like it being required for the car or if there are severe environmental conditions such as extreme heat or cold).

ingvar

a turbo, a diesel and an automatic transmission are a marriage made in heaven
Turbo and a slush box are big no-no for me. Turbo and manual are a marriage made in heaven!!!

wtd44

I have owned a turbo with an automatic transmission, and found it exhilarating to say the least. I would suspect a turbo plus standard tranny would be harder to manage (the power curve) than the turbo+auto. :confuse:

beancountant

When I went to the website, Motor oil evaluator.com, I noticed that for 5W-20 grade Synthetic, Valvoline was rated higher than Mobil 1 and for 5W-30 Synthetic, Pennzoil Platinum was rated higher then Mobil 1. What surprised me was that Castrol Syntec was rated at close to the bottom both for Synthetic and Regular oils. Is Mobil 1 being the first to produce synthetic resting on their laurels and not thinking of the competition? Are there other tests for motor oils out there? Do you care to comment on what I just mentioned?

wtd44

It must all depend on how far back in the history of synlube one goes, to determine which was first. My remembrance is that in the late '70's/early '80's, the hype was on diester (agricultural sources) as the basis of the new-to-automobiles synthetic engine lubricants. Polyol ester base stocks came later, and were rather more expensive. And if this is sequentially correct, then Mobil 1 was a latter day product beyond that. As to which are better than which: I continue to suspect that the ester products, both diester and polyol ester based are technically the very best-- and in the reverse order in which I listed them. I accept fully that my view is not necessarily very popular at this point in time! Don't most pundits now push the idea that nothing is superior to the polyalphaolefins? Should any of us really care? After all, cost effectiveness does count for a lot, and the esters are more expensive.

beancountant

I've read of posts here before that the timing belts normally lasts longer than the 60K the Owner's Manual requires. I now have 85K since my last change of timing belt.
My Question is: Should I have it changed now, if not, when can I have it changed. Usually, when I have it changed, I also have the A/c belt, P. Steering and the Fan belt changed ( the labor cost is the same). Appreciate your input in this.

wtd44

If you have an interference engine, you are at risk of serious damage to your engine if the belt breaks while the engine is running. If you have a noninterference engine and the belt breaks, your engine will stop running until you replace the belt. There is an expensive difference between the alternatives! :P

I had a Toyota 1600cc I4 engine in a 1997 Geo Prizm, and as I recall the belt was not due for routine replacement until about 100K miles. I'd bet the same is true for the slightly larger 1800 engine.

jeffyscott

You can check if it is an interference engine by looking it up in "timing belt replacement guide" at: http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=2256&location_id=3487

xwesx

Many times the actual service life of belts (timing belt is no exception) has a lot to do with the conditions in which it is used and the age (rather than mileage) of the belt. The replacement interval recommended by the manufacturer is a safe point at which they would expect no belts to fail.

If you drive the car in extreme heat or cold, or it is the original belt, it may be better to replace it sooner rather than later at this point. If it is non-interference, all a broken belt will do is leave you stranded. Otherwise, you are out an engine.

obyone

What's a couple of bent valves?

Wrong topic anyway.

beancountant

Mr. Shiftright,
When I went to the website, The Motor oil evaluator.com, I noticed that for 5W-20 grade Synthetic, Valvoline was rated higher than Mobil 1 and for 5W-30 Synthetic, Pennzoil Platinum was rated higher then Mobil 1. What surprised me was that Castrol Syntec was rated at close to the bottom both for Synthetic and Regular oils. Is Mobil 1 being the first to produce synthetic resting on their laurels and not thinking of the competition? Are there other tests for motor oils out there? Do you care to comment on what I just mentioned?

Mr_Shiftright

My impression, without having any real academic credentials about it all, is that these websites are splitting hairs----in the sense that they are talking about levels of efficiency that most modern automobiles, given how they are driven, will never need anyway.

In other words, if you are not racing bats to the wall, or towing redwood trees out of forests, or operating in extreme conditions in Alaska or Death Valley, or not adhering to the rigid demands of an automaker (who cannot in fact, demand that you use a particular brand of oil, only the "specs" of that oil), none of this really matters. Think about how the average car, running on oil bought in a convenience store, and driven by most negligent American drivers, routinely last 9-10 years anyway.

Anyway, since you asked, that's what I think---significant in absolute terms, but not important in relative terms.

mattcrowe

Mobil 1 was not the first. Amsoil was. http://www.amsoil.com/

shipo

Bwaaa-haaa-haaa, believeing anything from the Scamzoil web site. Long story short, Amsoil wasn't the first synthetic oil by something like three decades. :P