Those downsized Caddys with the good engine can be attractive cars. Also one year bustleback with the old style engines, although I suppose an 81 would do.
That Cutlass has at least had paint I'd say, if not taken a hit in the back, because the "Oldmobile" script was never installed on the soft bumper there; it was on the decklid.
While on this subject, I'd still very-much like a '79 or '80 Eldorado or '77-79 Fleetwood Brougham, with the tapered B pillar I hated back then but now like as distinctive.
re: Vigor, I still see them around every blue moon or so, I think they sold well enough here.
I don't know how things have changed since then, but I remember, from an old 1984 Consumer Guide auto issue that I had, for GM's intermediates in general, the 1978-79 models were actually the best of the bunch! They tended to rate average to better in most respects, and not that many black marks. But for 1980, they slipped a bit, and moreso for 1981, and even worse for 1982-83.
But, times do change. And, I'd imagine that even back then, they were comparing the reliability of the '78-79 GM intermediates to other '78 and '79 cars that they got owner responses for. So, a car that was good, compared to other 1978 cars might still have been worse than, say, a 1981 model that was rated worse than other 1981 cars.
I've always heard that the 1981-82 models, in general, were the worst, mostly because those computer controls were particularly troublesome in these early years. I think they were also having trouble adapting to ever-tightening emissions standards. But, my own personal experience might be tainting my views, as I had an '82 Cutlass Supreme that crapped its 231 around the 73,000 mile mark. In those years they also severely curtailed the use of any engine in the 300 CID range, leaving the coupes and sedans to deal with under-sized 260 CID range V-8s, or the Buick 252 V-6.
For some reason though, it seemed like something changed for 1983. Almost overnight, they dropped the 260 and 267 (the Pontiac 265 left us after '81). And they started offering 305 and 307 V-8s across the board, and even some high-output models, such as the Olds Hurst and the Monte Carlo SS. I can't remember though...did emissions/economy standards get relaxed for '83, or did the automotive technology just happen to improve, somehow?
I think '83 was also the year Ford dropped that under-sized 255 V-8.
While on this subject, I'd still very-much like a '79 or '80 Eldorado or '77-79 Fleetwood Brougham, with the tapered B pillar I hated back then but now like as distinctive.
For some reason though, it seemed like something changed for 1983. Almost overnight, they dropped the 260 and 267 (the Pontiac 265 left us after '81). And they started offering 305 and 307 V-8s across the board, and even some high-output models, such as the Olds Hurst and the Monte Carlo SS. I can't remember though...did emissions/economy standards get relaxed for '83, or did the automotive technology just happen to improve, somehow.
I think '83 was also the year Ford dropped that under-sized 255 V-8.
I think by then the tech had advanced enough that they could meet the CAFE standards with a 300c.i. (+/-) engine versus a 260c.i. one.
What were they thinking with the 4100 in those cars?
No wonder Lincoln really took off in the mid-80s. Multiport Fuel Injected 302 (after 85) and 4spd auto OR a 4100. HMM, tough choice there.
I think much of it was that Cadillac knew those cars were cash cows, and people would buy them, no matter what. The typical buyer didn't really care that they were slow, just that they looked good, were roomy, and luxurious. In the long run, I think they should have just kept the 368, and paid the CAFE fines...probably would have done more for their image, in the long run. FWIW, the 368, did stay around in limousines through 1984. I can't remember if it still had the cylinder deactivation or not. It used the beefy THM400 automatic, and was EPA-rated at 10/14. In a non-limo application, they might have been able to get away with the THM350. I guess the THM200-R4 might have even been plausible...after all, it was used in the Cutlass-based Hurst/442, the Grand National, and GM wagons with the 307.
FWIW, here's how the EPA city cycles fared for the Deville, over those dark years:
1979: 425-4bbl: 14, 425 Fuel Injection: 12 1980: 368-4bbl: 15, 252-4bbl V-6 (credit option): 17 1981: V-8-6-4: 15 (I'm guessing you saw real gains on the highway though), 252-4bbl: 18 (it started using the 4-speed OD transmission instead of the 3-speed) 1982: 4.1/249 V8 fuel injection: 17 (it used the 4-speed), 252-4bbl, 18.
So, realistically, going from even the 425 to these tiny engines really didn't save THAT much. Personally, given the choice I'd take the 425 and just deal with the 3-4 city mpg loss compared to those under-sized, and unreliable engines. But, at the time, fuel was scarce and expensive, and even if the buyers of these cars could afford it, there was always the risk of the gas stations running out, and you didn't know when you could fill up again. I don't know if they actually rationed gas during the second fuel crunch like they did during the first, but I do remember stations running out from time to time. And, those auto makers would sell their soul to the devil if if would save them a few bucks per car in EPA fines, so they were willing to take the risk with those smaller engines.
It would have been nice though, if Cadillac had continued to improve upon the 368. Or, perhaps come out with a smaller-displacement version around 300 CID, like Chevy did with the 305, or Olds with the 307. Just don't do it like Pontiac did with the 301
For some reason, my gut is telling me that Cutlass Supreme has the 231, even though it's the Brougham model. Don't ask me what's tipping me off...just intuition.One way to tell, if you know how to decode these things, is I believe the code for the Olds 307 was either a "W" or a "Y". But, it looks like that for sale sign might be covering the VIN.
Those VINs could get confusing, too, because sometimes they'd recycle letters. For instance, in the late 70's, "Y" was the code for the dreaded Pontiac 301. I forget how GM handled it in the years when they had both the 301 and the 307? Maybe that was when they used "W" for the 307?
Another way to narrow it down, somewhat, is if the transmission was a 4-speed automatic, it would have been the 307. The 231 only used the 3-speed automatic. However, the 307 did also offer the 3-speed, just with ridiculously tall gearing to offset lack of overdrive. Confusing times!
Oh, and in another forum, I found out that "9" is the code for the High-output 307 used in the Hurst/442. "Y" is the code for the mainstream 307. Or, as they referred to it in the forum, the "sucky" 307...
Oh, and in another forum, I found out that "9" is the code for the High-output 307 used in the Hurst/442. "Y" is the code for the mainstream 307. Or, as they referred to it in the forum, the "sucky" 307...
I have just learned that Canadian-built Cutlasses of this era commonly used the Chevy 305. Would at least make a swap to a different/larger engine down the road easier!
At $4500USD and about 50K miles, this one doesn't seem to be a bad buy on the surface, but as with any vehicle this old around here, would need a thorough inspection.
Hard to believe the early Coyote engine only put out 210HP. Drop a current Mustang GT engine in that baby!! :laughing:
I seem to remember the numbers 190 and 210 thrown around a lot for the Panthers back in the early days? I wonder if 190 was with the single exhaust and 210 was with the dual?
Back in the 80's, there was a common package on the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis, and I'd presume the Town Car as well, that gave you dual exhaust, a quicker axle ratio, wider rims, and limited slip. My 1985 Consumer Guide has a test of a Crown Vic with the package, and they said it only added something like $227 to the price. I think the axle changed from a 2.73:1 to a 3.55:1. Oddly, it got better fuel economy than the Grand Marquis they tested in that issue, which had the 2.73. The hp was listed the same for both...140 hp, which I thought was odd. I figured the dual exhaust would boost hp a bit. But, I guess it's possible that Consumer Guide mis-printed it? Or maybe Ford just under-rated the dual exhaust version?
That yellow Caddy is gorgeous, but one small detail has me suspicious:
The "Touring Suspension" emblem on the trunk is above the "Cadillac" script? I can't say I remember seeing one specifically, but I've never, and I mean never, seen any emblem above a Cadillac script.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
That yellow Caddy is gorgeous, but one small detail has me suspicious:
The "Touring Suspension" emblem on the trunk is above the "Cadillac" script? I can't say I remember seeing one specifically, but I've never, and I mean never, seen any emblem above a Cadillac script.
He addresses that in the write-up. There was originally a dealer emblem there that the trunk lid was drilled to receive which he hated, but not wanting to repair/repaint the trunk lid he found that the Touring emblem fit the holes and installed it.
Dad had a 78 Sedan de Ville d’Elegance and mom later had a 78 Olds 98 Regency coupe. The Olds felt significantly quicker with the 403 Olds V8 than the 425 Cadillac V8. The Cadillac V8 was a bit quieter. Both got lousy mpg, 11-12 mpg city and 15mpg or so highway, and this was when the speed limit was 55 and we wouldn’t dare drive over 62 mph, otherwise a speeding ticket was very likely.
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
Not sure where to post this, but I found it interesting - window sticker for a final run (1968 delivery) 230 fintail. For as good as MB owners can be at keeping documents, window stickers before the 70s are quite scarce. I like the $19 destination/delivery charge. Tinted glass is an uncommon option. Notice there's no mention of AC or radio - these were dealer-installed:
And a radio receipt from about 10 years later - that Blaupunkt cost a pretty penny, and apparently is still in the car:
My car got a used Becker Europa TR around 1970, for something like $125. It is also still in the car.
That's a pretty hefty sum for back then. FWIW, the cheapest Cadillac, a Calais, started around $5400 for the hardtop coupe and around $5660 for the hardtop sedan...although even here, stuff we think of as standard in a Cadillac, such as a power seat, windows, any radio at all, and a/c was an option. They even charged $32 for shoulder straps for the seatbelts, at least until the Feds made them mandatory, on 1/1/68, I believe.
Years ago, I spec'ed out my '68 Dart 270 using one of those American Standard catalogs. It had a base price of $2653 with a V8, but by the time you threw on the automatic, a/c, power steering, tinted windshield, radio, it came out to around $3300. My '69 was actually more, around $3600 with just a slant six, but it was better-equipped in other ways...3-speed electric wipers, vinyl roof, and being a GT model. It's funny; the V8 only added $128, in 1968...and that was over the tiny 170 CID slant six! But an AM radio was most likely a more expensive option than that!
Yes, back in those days the most expensive options tended to be A/C, auto transmission, power windows and seats, and any kind of radio/tape player. Optional engines were often very inexpensive unless you wanted a high-output job.
I think my fintail stickered around 5K when it was new a few years before that 230, I assumed it was the same price as a nicely equipped Buick. For the MB, you weren't paying for size or convenience features, but for engineering.
The last stereo I did was my 1985 Colt, which came with no stereo so I had to put one in. Eventually changed the speakers myself. Since then, they stayed the way the factory made them, other than my Odyssey. Had an adapter added so I could plug in an XM roadie unit, and had the shop put new front speakers in at the same time.
I would be terrified to mess with the wiring in any new car now. At least the TLX has no needs for any upgrades
I've only done a stereo in one car, my mom's Tempo. When I was a teen, the original stereo crapped out, so I went to the junkyard and found an identical unit. Plug and play, although it wasn't cheap for a junkyard part ($50, IIRC), as the car wasn't too ancient yet, and it was the fancier version. Of course, 6 months later the replacement crapped out, and I replaced it with a Wally World special Sony that was still in the car when sold several years later.
I did have the original radio in the fintail rebuilt, but it just unscrews from the base and slides out. I also had a Sirius head unit put in my old E55, hidden in the ashtray.
I used to run into a guy from time to time at some local classic car shows who had a '61 DeSoto 4-door hardtop. The base MSRP on that would have been something like $3167. However, his had an MSRP of around $5,000! That was definitely entry-level Cadillac/Imperial territory, although I just checked, and the '61 Lincolns actually started around $6,000 for the sedan, $6700 for the convertible.
By '61, DeSoto was a mere shell of its former self. All the nicer models had been eliminated, and what was left was priced about equivalent to the former Firesweep, which itself was often viewed as a glammed up Dodge rather than a "real" DeSoto. Yet, in '61, stuff like the automatic, power steering/brakes, radio, heater, etc were all still optional equipment. This one also had air conditioning and power windows. I can't remember if it had a power seat/door locks as well, though. I'd imagine air conditioning was around a $400-500 option by then. I recall reading it was around $550 for GM in 1956, and I think for the '57 Mopars it was $484. So, it was one of those items that got cheaper over time, as it became more popular, both in raw dollars and inflation-adjusted dollars. But, I'm sure it was still pretty pricey in '61. I do remember, by the late 60's, it was around $330-350 in a '68 or '69 Dart. By '85 it was up to around $650-750, with the auto-temp styles often running around $900...of course, inflation was what accounted for most of that increase.
These days, a/c is pretty much standard on everything. The last time I saw any sort of study done, admittedly a few years ago, they said that a/c on average adds about $1,000 to the price of a modern car. Contrast that to the mid/late 50's, where adjusting for inflation, a/c was the equivalent of $4500-5000!
I suspect AC on an early-mid 60s MB was maybe a $500 option. They were usually under-dash units, not the more elaborate style with rear ducting etc (although I have seen a highline fintail with such a unit). A German brand radio was probably another $200 installed. Power windows/locks/seats simply weren't available yet.
Must have been an early Ford meet in the area today, saw several Model As of varying types, all original (which I greatly prefer to 70s-80s style rods) and a neat ~35 pickup as well.
My father used to talk about when he was out with his dad in their Model A coupe. Seems gramps liked to put it through its paces and flipped it on its side one day.
You GM guys are going to love this. My son in law's dad loves those cushy cruisers. Prior car was an early last gen Lincoln Town Car with Florida package. It got totaled, so now he drives this.
It's a 350 engine, isn't it. I had one as a loaner when my leSabre was in the dealer for some service. I threw golf clubs in the rear and drove country roads to the scruff golf course. It was a steamship on smooth waters over those back roads.
Comments
Those downsized Caddys with the good engine can be attractive cars. Also one year bustleback with the old style engines, although I suppose an 81 would do. re: Vigor, I still see them around every blue moon or so, I think they sold well enough here.
But, times do change. And, I'd imagine that even back then, they were comparing the reliability of the '78-79 GM intermediates to other '78 and '79 cars that they got owner responses for. So, a car that was good, compared to other 1978 cars might still have been worse than, say, a 1981 model that was rated worse than other 1981 cars.
I've always heard that the 1981-82 models, in general, were the worst, mostly because those computer controls were particularly troublesome in these early years. I think they were also having trouble adapting to ever-tightening emissions standards. But, my own personal experience might be tainting my views, as I had an '82 Cutlass Supreme that crapped its 231 around the 73,000 mile mark. In those years they also severely curtailed the use of any engine in the 300 CID range, leaving the coupes and sedans to deal with under-sized 260 CID range V-8s, or the Buick 252 V-6.
For some reason though, it seemed like something changed for 1983. Almost overnight, they dropped the 260 and 267 (the Pontiac 265 left us after '81). And they started offering 305 and 307 V-8s across the board, and even some high-output models, such as the Olds Hurst and the Monte Carlo SS. I can't remember though...did emissions/economy standards get relaxed for '83, or did the automotive technology just happen to improve, somehow?
I think '83 was also the year Ford dropped that under-sized 255 V-8.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
http://www.mcsmk8.com/78-CAD/78-cad.html
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
FWIW, here's how the EPA city cycles fared for the Deville, over those dark years:
1979: 425-4bbl: 14, 425 Fuel Injection: 12
1980: 368-4bbl: 15, 252-4bbl V-6 (credit option): 17
1981: V-8-6-4: 15 (I'm guessing you saw real gains on the highway though), 252-4bbl: 18 (it started using the 4-speed OD transmission instead of the 3-speed)
1982: 4.1/249 V8 fuel injection: 17 (it used the 4-speed), 252-4bbl, 18.
So, realistically, going from even the 425 to these tiny engines really didn't save THAT much. Personally, given the choice I'd take the 425 and just deal with the 3-4 city mpg loss compared to those under-sized, and unreliable engines. But, at the time, fuel was scarce and expensive, and even if the buyers of these cars could afford it, there was always the risk of the gas stations running out, and you didn't know when you could fill up again. I don't know if they actually rationed gas during the second fuel crunch like they did during the first, but I do remember stations running out from time to time. And, those auto makers would sell their soul to the devil if if would save them a few bucks per car in EPA fines, so they were willing to take the risk with those smaller engines.
It would have been nice though, if Cadillac had continued to improve upon the 368. Or, perhaps come out with a smaller-displacement version around 300 CID, like Chevy did with the 305, or Olds with the 307. Just don't do it like Pontiac did with the 301
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
And then I googled "LG4" and found a reference to the Chevy 305-4bbl from the late 70s/80's... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_small-block_engine#LG4
Oh, and in another forum, I found out that "9" is the code for the High-output 307 used in the Hurst/442. "Y" is the code for the mainstream 307. Or, as they referred to it in the forum, the "sucky" 307...
He has an awesome collection. His tastes also practically mimic mine so it's fun to dream, lol.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
http://www.mcsmk8.com/92-P75/92-P75.HTM
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
He also likes some MBs, and I agree with his tastes:
Amazing car:
http://www.mcsmk8.com/98-S600/98-S600.html
Ultimate R129 configuration:
http://www.mcsmk8.com/97-SL74/97-SL74.html
At $4500USD and about 50K miles, this one doesn't seem to be a bad buy on the surface, but as with any vehicle this old around here, would need a thorough inspection.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Back in the 80's, there was a common package on the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis, and I'd presume the Town Car as well, that gave you dual exhaust, a quicker axle ratio, wider rims, and limited slip. My 1985 Consumer Guide has a test of a Crown Vic with the package, and they said it only added something like $227 to the price. I think the axle changed from a 2.73:1 to a 3.55:1. Oddly, it got better fuel economy than the Grand Marquis they tested in that issue, which had the 2.73. The hp was listed the same for both...140 hp, which I thought was odd. I figured the dual exhaust would boost hp a bit. But, I guess it's possible that Consumer Guide mis-printed it? Or maybe Ford just under-rated the dual exhaust version?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The "Touring Suspension" emblem on the trunk is above the "Cadillac" script? I can't say I remember seeing one specifically, but I've never, and I mean never, seen any emblem above a Cadillac script.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-plymouth-barracuda-18/
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And a radio receipt from about 10 years later - that Blaupunkt cost a pretty penny, and apparently is still in the car:
My car got a used Becker Europa TR around 1970, for something like $125. It is also still in the car.
Years ago, I spec'ed out my '68 Dart 270 using one of those American Standard catalogs. It had a base price of $2653 with a V8, but by the time you threw on the automatic, a/c, power steering, tinted windshield, radio, it came out to around $3300. My '69 was actually more, around $3600 with just a slant six, but it was better-equipped in other ways...3-speed electric wipers, vinyl roof, and being a GT model. It's funny; the V8 only added $128, in 1968...and that was over the tiny 170 CID slant six! But an AM radio was most likely a more expensive option than that!
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Subs, Amps and the latest and greatest head units.
The system I had in my 93 Taurus would rival many home systems.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I would be terrified to mess with the wiring in any new car now. At least the TLX has no needs for any upgrades
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I did have the original radio in the fintail rebuilt, but it just unscrews from the base and slides out. I also had a Sirius head unit put in my old E55, hidden in the ashtray.
By '61, DeSoto was a mere shell of its former self. All the nicer models had been eliminated, and what was left was priced about equivalent to the former Firesweep, which itself was often viewed as a glammed up Dodge rather than a "real" DeSoto. Yet, in '61, stuff like the automatic, power steering/brakes, radio, heater, etc were all still optional equipment. This one also had air conditioning and power windows. I can't remember if it had a power seat/door locks as well, though. I'd imagine air conditioning was around a $400-500 option by then. I recall reading it was around $550 for GM in 1956, and I think for the '57 Mopars it was $484. So, it was one of those items that got cheaper over time, as it became more popular, both in raw dollars and inflation-adjusted dollars. But, I'm sure it was still pretty pricey in '61. I do remember, by the late 60's, it was around $330-350 in a '68 or '69 Dart. By '85 it was up to around $650-750, with the auto-temp styles often running around $900...of course, inflation was what accounted for most of that increase.
These days, a/c is pretty much standard on everything. The last time I saw any sort of study done, admittedly a few years ago, they said that a/c on average adds about $1,000 to the price of a modern car. Contrast that to the mid/late 50's, where adjusting for inflation, a/c was the equivalent of $4500-5000!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport 2020 C43 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My son in law's dad loves those cushy cruisers.
Prior car was an early last gen Lincoln Town Car with Florida package.
It got totaled, so now he drives this.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,