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We need to get back to the broader subject of the High End marques. And it would be reaaally nice if we could talk about some of the really high end marques instead of just the two maufacturers we get so stuck on in here ...
Interesting post. What is the number or reference to your earlier post on US driving habits on the Lexus board. I'd like to read it.
One reason why you don't see many very high end cars on the road is that these are the couple's third or fourth car and they get driven only on weekends while at their country place. They just aren't taken on long road trips for a variety of reasons although I don't think cost is one. This summer I did though see a Maybach with NY plates parked in front of the Ritz in Montreal while the owners checked in. The four digit, low mileage on three and four year old very high end cars amazes me.
I have a theory about the ownership of very high end cars that I'd like to try out. By the time someone can realistically shop for a very high end car (i.e., above 200K), that purchase is probably competing with a light twin plane, a sport fishing boat, or even the second vacation home. IMHO people with the means to buy an above 200K car are not the motorheads like us or that they perhaps once were. They have moved on to bigger and better toys. (The reason for the 200K cutoff is that it strikes me that a moderately successful working couple--maybe a JD/MD, DDS/CPA, anyone really who files a joint return north of 180K-- could scrape up the money to get into a Bentley Continental or a MB S and use it as a daily driver.)
The people in Lambos are often trustfunders.
Those Econo boxes sure can be fun to drive. I took delivery of my Corolla two days ago. It's a nice enough car. I sure can't complain about the gas mileage. Sure it lacks the power and comfort of my LS400 and 430 but hey, it's easier to drive around town.
My Lexus dealer is really starting to get on my nerves. As some of you know, they billed me $2100 to repair the front suspension. They didn't fix the problem, (Creaking when manuvering at low speeds) and now I'm getting the royal run-around trying to get it back in and fixed at their expense. I refuse to be billed for taking the suspension apart again and realigning it. I think it would be fair to pay for parts. I told them I want a diagnostic approach taken...Without a doubt you'll find plenty of things to replace on an old car, but is it relevant to the problem?
Replacing parts blindly isn't going to do it!
I left the service manager a message today. If he doesn't get back to me, I'll have the credit card company halt the $2100 payment, and file a complaint with the Mass Attorney General's office. It isn't so much the bill (I told them to fix it properly no matter the cost the first time!) it's the shoddy service I've received that's making me angry..How has everyone else dealt with these sort of behavior from their dealers?
SV
The dealer is Lexus of Watertown in MA...I just got off the phone with the Lexus Corporate Folks...As usual they want to "mediate.." I told them I plan on taking legal action if they don't resolve it on their own. Here's the whole history:
The car was hit in an accident two years ago. The Insurance company paid over $6K to fix it..The majority of the damage was on the Left Front. They replaced the entire LF Suspension Assembly and Lower Ball joints on both sides. Ever since then it has been making this Creaking noise when you make turns at low speeds. (Say about 10-15 MPH) I took it back to Lexus and they replaced the front bushings. Then I took it back again and they said it needed Strut Rod Bushings. I declined the repair as I was heading to London, so I didn't need the car..
So a few weeks ago, I sent it in to get this done...I get a call from the dealership saying it needed $4K in work, mainly suspension. Some of you may remember my very annoyed post at the time...So I went to the dealership and spoke to the mechanic. He also seemed to be at odds with the amount of work the Service Advisor said it needed...
He denied the Strut Rod Bushings needed replacement and told me the RF Upper Control Arms were the issue. In fact he insisted, it was a safety issue. This time I even took him on a test drive and was able to duplicate the problem...Low and behold I pick it up four days later and it's STILL making the same noise. I was especially ticked off with the service consultant who seemed to take issue with my questioning her estimates. Today was the last straw..I called them on Friday telling them to pick up the car and diagnose it..The Asst Service Manager (Who is a great guy) told me it would be done on Monday. I call today and he's not there (Unavailable until Thursday) and no one seems to know what's going on...I've left messages with the Service Manager and General Manager of the Dealership...So far no returned calls...
Can you believe this?!
SV
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
As I think someone else has suggested, now is the time to either unload the beast or bring it to an independent to be fixed. It shouldn't be at a $95 +_ per hour big city dealer with service writers who, you guessed it, write.
Thanks for the good advice...Here's another twist to the story..Last night I went over all of my service invoices..Last year I had the front stabilizer bar bushings replaced...Then I looked at my invoice/estimate from last week, which claims the same bushings are in need of replacement! These things have been replaced, and I'm 100% sure there is nothing wrong with them!
This is fraud pure and simple...Also in the quote was a double billing of labor charges for the strut rod bushings and shocks..Both are included in 3 hrs of labor. The S/C charged me 3 hours for each. (I didn't have this done, but they've put it in writing). I'll consult with the MA Attorney General's office today..It's not an issue of money anymore, it's principle.
It's not the car that's the issue. It's a simple creaking noise from the front end, which only started after it was in the accident..Seeing as Lexus of Watertown did all of the repairs, I'm going to hold them accountable to fix it. After spending $8,000 ($5K of insurance) I'm definitely not going to let them get away with it.
I've given these fools 2 years to fix it. It's more of their incompetence than anything. I spoke with the service manager yesterday and they told me that they will have the shop foreman work on the car, and that I don't pay a dime in diagnosing costs. Sounds reasonably fair to me. But why should I trust them at this point? I'll have an independant such as Sears have a look and tell me what they think just to be sure.
The reason for the Dealer Service is this: They know the car the best(Well they are supposed to..) and warranty their work for a year. When they mess up, I have plenty I can do about it..At a small independant what recourse do you have should they make a mistake? People at Sears will often say, "Dealer only" They don't even want to touch the car...Plus I had a great relationship with Lexus of Watertown for over 12 yrs..That's why I am so upset!
SV
Thanks for your posts...It's been the same problem ever since the accident. My issue is with the Lexus mechanics..I work in Engineering and we take a diagnostic approach rather than replace parts blindly..Most of my experience was in England, and we'd never replace parts without being 100% sure it was the problem. I'll have Sears look at it and tell me what they think is wrong with it. The frame is ok as far as I know.
My view is that the Lexus dealer is responsible in a few ways...Two weeks ago I told them to have a look at the front end and tell me what's wrong with it..As you all know I got a laundry list of things. Where my anger comes from is that they wrote that the stabilizer bar bushings need to be replaced..Hmmm, considering it was just done last year, I have a hard time believeing that!! It also had double billings for labor on the Strut Rod bushings and Shock inserts...(The Service manager had already told me they're included in the same 3 hrs of labor!)
My gut instinct tells me the Foreman of the Service Dept will likely figure it out..With all the pressure on them, I'm willing to bet they won't give it back until they are sure they've licked the problem..The issue here is merely $$$..I feel having spent a few thousand, they should diagnose at their expense, and replace the parts that only need it. Once they've figured out what part is at fault, I will happily pay for the replacement.
They essentially want to do most of that, with the exception of charging me for replacing parts at will. I want a methodical approach taken here, with the least expensive parts replaced first. There isn't much left to replace at this point anyway!
Thanks for letting me vent!
SV
On the other hand, you could bring it to the biggest Sears on the North Shore (the Liberty Mall in Danvers?) and leave it out front with a For Sale sign. You'd be out of the car by 5PM.
It wouldn't cost you anything if "they" go after the dealer...
Next possibility is the Local on air consumer protection guy...TV statations always seem to have one.
Good Luck
Thanks so much for your responses. I talked to the Attorney General's office today about the whole issue. They think that a) I shouldn't pay for any further repairs b) That they may be able to get a partial refund for me.
The dealer is supposed to call me tomorrow. Their initial offer of repairing on my dime was unacceptable. I think to repair at their cost would be fair. 10 years ago when they botched my 30K service on the same car, they refunded my money on the spot...When I bought a Pre Certified 98 LS with all sorts of issues, Lexus of Norwood fired the Salesman, Sales Manager and gave me a brand new '02 LS430 near cost. No other dealer was even willing to give me more than 5% off at the time. The reason for the firings was that they lied on a bunch of issues, and I caught them on paper doing it.
Many of you have told me to sell the car and be done with it. I'd agree normally, but the car was a 50th birthday present for me from my wife. It was a big surprise as I'd never owned such an expensive car before..I'd wanted an LS but couldn't sum up the nerve to buy it..Even though she stole my new LS430 she loves that car. (Admittedly so do I)..Emotions make normally rational beings do strange things...What is driving me the most is the desire to teach them a lesson.
SV
Sentimental reasons are hard to overcome, but don't forget that cars are machines, and they will break down someday and be undriveable.... Better to do it quick than prolong it and make it even harder to do. You will get over it if you give it up and get rid of it now. Just mho....
Thanks for all of your posts. This isn't about money or even the repairs (or lack of) anymore. It's about the principle of not cheating your clients, especially one who has bought five cars from your dealership..Besides, I'm semi-retired these days so it's not like I have anything better to do. (Sure feels good, no kids' college tutition to pay for, and the wife is at work all day) These sort of things don't annoy me, I actually enjoy it.
I emailed Hank Phillipi Ryan at Channel 7..I haven't heard anything yet, but I bet she gets tons of emails like this everyday. I confirmed with an independant mechanic that the stabilizer bushings were practically new and that nothing was wrong with them. He's a suspension expert, and did put his opinion on paper...Now I've got them lying in writing. I'll push for a resolution like the one I got at Lexus of Norwood. In that case, they made a big mistake but at least made amends for it.
This is turning into quite the soap opera. Entertaining though..I talked to the Better Business Bureau. They had a claim filed against them a few months ago, and did settle it to the customer's satisfaction. Like Lexus of Norwood, they were foolish enough to put their lying in writing...I bet they'll rush to settle this one.
SV
I saw a thing on TV a few years back (one of those Buyer Beware on local news) where a person with a hidden camera brought a car into an independent garage for just an oil change... The trick was that the car had previously had most everything replaced prior to going. Of course, they came back with recommendations to replace this and that and the other thing on top of the oil change..... Then they had employees from some other garages speaking in anonymity saying that they are trained and instructed to do work in order to charge "X" amount more for each transaction above and beyond an oil change. Pretty ratty stuff.
I had it happen to me back in 2001. Brought my then 2000 Maxima to a local garage for an oil change. They came back and told me my air filter was really dirty and needed to be replaced. I said, "Hmm, that's funny... I just had that replaced for my manufacturer's scheduled maintenence about 3000 miles ago.... An air filter should last longer than that, right?" All I got was a "Uhh, okay..." in reply.
Good for you for not letting them walk all over you....
I cannot post the pics of the other pics of the rear seats because a membership is needed to view pictures. This picture gives an idea however does not do the car justice.
I think they might have exported the Crown to a few other Asian countries (probably Hong Kong, they are also right hand drive).
What do you think about maybe a '00 or '01 Jaguar XK8? Very luxurious, plenty of legroom, reasonably good reliability, and you can get a low miles V8 convertible for $30K. Try getting a CLK430 cabrio for that price. Also, a Jag XK with the top down turns a lot of heads. A CLK does not.
I couldn't help but notice the renewed talk of MB again...Their electronic gremlins is precisely why I passed on the S430 in December..I was worried that I'd be stranded at a very inopportune time. I'm glad I got my LS430 but would definitely consider the new S should it live up to Mercedes past reputation for durability.
The Lexus dealer, having been clearly caught in the act, has volunteered to do the following things:
a) Pick up the car from my house and take it to the dealer
b) Diagnose it at their expense. The Shop Foreman will be exclusively working on the car
c) Whatever repairs are needed will be done. The cost will deduct from the total $5000 I have spent. So hence I shouldn't have to pay anything unless the work exceeds $5000...Since the work is being done on their dime, I highly doubt this will occur.
They'll get it on Tuesday. Hopefully they'll get it right this time.
Thanks for all your posts,
SV
http://shows.autospies.com/gallery/auto-show-photos.asp?imageId=15095&galleryId=23
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I'll definitely have to head to the Audi dealer once they've got A8s on the lot with this system
Congradulations for hanging in there and getting these guys to do the right thing.
I understand why you care so much about the car...
Hopefully your hanging in there will help the rest of us and that dealer will be a little more carefull next time....YOU DID A PUBLIC SERVICE...THANKS.
I own two Lexus cars and the Jag. The Jag cant come close to my wife's RX or my LS430 in terms of a spotless record, but compared to what I've been hearing from friends who have recent MB Es or SLs, its been fantastic. I think as long as you are very careful about making sure the car has been well cared for by its previous owner and is thoroughly checked before you buy, you should be ok.
I wouldnt recommend the 740i, those are just as bad as the Benz. If you want a BMW, a 540i is a much better choice.
Gee, I don't know what papers you read, but what I read is that Jag is something like Number 1 in its J D Powers category for initial quality, there is none of the chronic whining like there is with MB electrical problems, the i drive on the 7 Series, etc. etc. Jag seems to have its act together. The problem is that no one knows it because of lousy marketing and so sales are slow.
I’ll respond with Porsche’s announcement that it will be developing its own hybrid system in partnership with VW which is slated for Cayenne 2010. As mentioned before I expect to see it in or at least considered for Panamera which, if executed properly, will be an awesome sports sedan to begin with. You won’t see hybrid in an early Panamera, but in the general scheme of things, I think they will need to put a lid on fleet emissions and fuel efficiency over the long run. And there has been speculation that Panamera will be the Cayenne sedan so I would think it adds up.
One of the rags did a realistic rendering of the Panamera sketch released by Porsche. It has an elemental, rugged, down and dirty Porsche look to it. Low slung with the brake rotors and calipers bulging, kind of like a heavyweight boxer’s muscles when he’s dressed in a tuxedo, jacket off and slung over his shoulder. Among the elegant, gentlemanly vehicles in a high-end class that is mostly about business acumen and civilized luxury, Panamera will be like a young Mike Tyson showing up at the wedding.
What I don’t understand is how Porsche will be able to finance development of both a hybrid system and new vehicle in Panamera, even if Panamera doesn’t have a hybrid version. They are still a small company and both these ventures seem high-ticket. Were the Boxster and especially Cayenne sales that good over the past 9 years to provide an ample piggy bank? Maybe the CFO of this thread, Ljflx, would be kind enough to share his wisdom and give an opinion. Get out of that bunk soldier!
;-)
Porsche could be on cloud-9 with all of the irons they have in the fire, like a rube who is still experiencing euphoria from hitting lotto (Cayenne). My sense is that they could be biting off more than they can chew. I would think Toyota could still wind up being their daddy on the hybrid account. Hopefully Porsche will come through.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/13/Autos/hybrid_porsche_cayenne/
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By the way - you've got to realize that many projects qupte a cost but it's not usually an incremental cost. Most of the time it's a reallocation of fixed or existing costs into one project. It's always overstated in Government spending. IE - they say the war in IRAQ costs X dollars per day, But 90% of those x dollars would have been spent anyway. We didn't add 150,000 new soldiers to foght that war. In the casr of cars I'll bet that one of the cost components is lost sales in the last "old" model year, and effecetively that is a real incremental cost. But typically that is made up with the surge of sales in the new model year.
Now I have a separate problem. My wife loves the IS and my son wants it as his first car. Can I send you the bill?