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Please don't mention anything factual like that because all you'll get is a bunch of garble about leases. Don't you know that buyers who finance and/or pay with cash don't exist anymore?
M
If you cannot discuss the ins and outs, ups and downs, plusses and minuses of the cars and the marques without stomping all over someone else, you need to not post at all.
Chill out and get back to the productive and interesting discussion that you are all capable of and all deserve, please.
A new S-Class isn't going to sell with a discount and even if it did it isn't going to sell at a discount big enough to put in the same price range as a Lexus LS. For the record I'm talking about the 2007 model not the out-going 6 year old 2006 model.
The Maybach isn't meeting its sales targets and is a new segment and brand for that matter so a dealer advertising such a discount on a car is to be expected.
The S-Class is a proven product. You aren't going to see any such large discounts (if any at all for the first year at least) on the brand new S-Class. Period.
M
I need to ask you not to post pictures that are wider than about 500 pixels. A picture too wide pushes the text out under the right sidebar making the first few messages on the page impossible to read. Very wide pictures can make the page have to be scrolled from left to right for folks to read every single line on the page that the picture appears.
You need to either edit the pictures to the correct width (as I mentioned, no more than 500 pixels) or just post a link to the pictures instead of actually displaying them.
Also, when you do post links, depending on their length, they can mess up the display in the same manner. To keep that from happening, you should use the URL button under the post box.
For that, all you have do is click the button, paste in the URL, type a name for your link over the words "link title" and click the button again.
If you have questions about any of this, just drop me an email. Thanks for your cooperation.
1. By the looks of the new LS, the new S-class is obsolete on arrival;
2. We do not even know how much the new LS will cost, so there is no basis to your claim regarding whether they will sell in the same price range at all. IMHO, those who think new LS will have an MSRP under $60k are dreaming, unfortunately (as much as I would like to share that dream myself).
I maintain that for LS/S/7/A8/XJ buyers saving $15-20,000 is a big consideration.
Fewer cars in this price range are leased relative to entry level luxury cars.
From the today's Wall Street Journal:
BMW spokesman Robert Mitchell says the German car maker sees more competition from Nissan Motor Co.'s Infiniti and Volkswagen AG's Audi, which have long offered sporty, youthful cars. "Lexus has their work cut out for itself if it's going to try to convince BMW owners to look at something else," Mr. Mitchell says.
Couldn't possibly disagree with you more. I'd estimate that 75-85% are leased.
Fortunately there is more to a BMW then its Bangle looks.
On paper at least the LS460 makes the S450, 750, A8 and XJ all seem pointless, but the proof is in the driving and real world evaluations...
There are core MB, BMW, Jag, Audi buyers regardless of what the other competition is doing. However, its the swing buyers that can really impact this sector's leadership. Seemed like we do agree tho' that the LS will likely retain its crown in the NA market.
Now here's a question for you: Do you seriously believe that the reason the LS is the leader of this pack is bcos it is cheaper ?
I seriously would question who is using your ID if anything from Lexus didn't win you over.
Hmmmm..... The current Gen 3 LS430 didn't win me over, that's why I still own the Gen-2. Ditto the ES, RX, & SC. Only the '06 GS, '06 IS, LX, and marginally GX (only the swing rear gate is my issue with this truck) are my favorites in the Lexus lineup. Of course, the '07 LS is already a winner in my books. Lexus may NOT win styling, but it more than makes up for it in the total package of its product - pricing, features, and customer care. That is a sign of a great product. If the Germans understand that, they'd be more successful against Lexus, imo.
This LS460 is a winner in this market. Packed with all of these features, with a drive that will be dream-like, I am expecting perfection, and I think they will deliver the ride and handling. The rims are 19", and the suspension will be there to handle all of that powertrain. I drove the IS350 non-sport, and the 330i SP, the latter drove marginally better, but I will need an apples-to-apples drive before I can give the crown to the Bimmer. However, the '06 GS300 I drove didn't do it for me. Smooth yes, driveable, no. But the GS350/460 are only a year away, so maybe they'll re-tune these cars for better performance and handling, and maybe a kill switch for VDIM.
This is pathetic. No matter how good the LS might turn out to be in its own right, the new S-Class will deservedly be a successful vehicle for Mercedes, and you can bank on that.
Let's all be clear about this. The LS is going to sell well, but it is RIDICULOUS to spin it into something it is NOT.
Go to dewey's post 12721. That is the TRUE story that requires NO WORDS. The Bimmer was already a done deal. The "new" LS looks like a carbon copy by COINCIDENCE? What's "new" about this that should make the TRULY new S-Class obsolete? TOTAL BALONEY.
I have said this ALL DAY yesterday. . .
Lexus designers are snipers with powerful scopes, and they have BMW in their crosshairs. You can quote me on this.
TagMan
Sad to see this distinctive brand wither under PAG management. At 30,000 sales/year Jag is in life support territory.
The XJ is overpriced, IMO.
IIRC Auto Week had an article stating 52% of BMWs were leased as of mid-2005.
Anyone have an accurate source for leasing data?
1) It feels R34 was the fastest point-to-point car on the planet.
2) At its introduction in the late 80's, journalists driving R34 were lapping Nurburgring faster than professional drivers driving Porsche 928. CAR said the 928 drivers were shocked!
Automobile said R34 was the first production car to lap the Ring under 8 minutes. I think now the record is around 7 min. & 45 seconds, probably belonging to a Porsche of some sort. Nissan has said it doesn't care about sprint times and top speed for new GT-R, but does care very much about lap times on the world's most famous courses. I think GT-R R35 most probably will snatch the Ring record back.
As to Japan's other two supercars, Acura NSX & Lexus LF-A, with their fancy V10's, I bet they will be very fast, in a straight line!
Hmmm, Merc1, I wonder if any other manufacturers will be "copying" this in the future?
Parking Assist? This sounds like dumbed down parking to me.
Is Lexus trying to cater to driving/parking challenged people? Is this what is called Lexus luxury?
Maybe so, but then aren't cruise controls and automatic tranmissions examples of "dumbing down" technology? Yet all of your beloved German brands offer those "dumbing down" features, don't they?
Like others here you seem to have an emotional need to criticize Lexus for whatever it does. If BMW had been the one to introduce an auto-park feature, you'd likely be hailing it as a great innovation.
Excellent point. 75 to 85% leased sounds like mere hearsay to me.
Brightness04,
just curious to know what the source of your data is?
I read your past posts about how different the new LS looks compared to the 7 series. But the closer I look the more similarities I see.
Tagman and I must have "styling cue blindness"? But since that sympthom does not exist I highly doubt it?
IMO using cruise control and having auto transmission in a BMW is Big Money Wasted. If BMW invented auto-park then BMW would not be a company focused on drivers. It would be a company I would avoid.
Am I anti-Lexus? Nope. I am just against any technology that removes driver input from the driving experience.
You need to get in tune with real-world 7-series buyers. How many 750s and 760s in this country do you think are sold without cruise controls and automatic transmissions? I believe the car can't be ordered any other way than with those features. So the answer would be ZERO.
IMO I would never buy a BMW 7 series. At that price range I would pick a BMW M5 with a stick. The M5 is my definition of a real BMW.
Regarding the auto-park thing, it reminds me of Lexus's advertisements that boast about heated seats and rain-sensing wipers, as though they are soooooooooooo special and unique to Lexus. Frankly, the auto-park feature is a terrific gimmick with potential "cool factor" to one-up the competition. I would NEVER use it, but I must admit I've seen some pathetic drivers and parkers out there that could use an AUTO-PILOT . . .or better yet a chauffeur.
Auto-park is only one small detail that Lexus would HYPE, but what kind of idiot would base a purchase decision on that one feature anyway? (Answer = an idiot that can't park???)
TagMan
Hey, I’m glad to hear your opinion and try to understand what you’re talking about. But if I disagree as I do in this case, I just treat it like a dubious call by an umpire on a pitch. My knee-jerk reaction is to suggest that the ump get a pair of glasses. Heavens, I would never tell him that though.
;-)
You have shown by ALL of your utterances and posts here that you are indeed anti-Lexus. No doubt. But that is OK, no need to hide the plain truth.
You claim to be against any technology that removes driver input from the driving, eh ? Does your BMW have a slushbox or an MT ? Does your wife's old MB have a slushbox or an MT ? If both have the auto tranny, then you must not have been *driving* all these years... AMong many auto improvements through technology are CVT, SDG, SMG, etc.. to improve driving experience. Would you rather all cars have a 4-speed MT since the most engaging part of driving is rowing your own gears ?
Truth is technology evolves and those who cannot see change and growth as positive end up on the wrong side of history.
I PRINTED the page and then cut the page between the two vehicles. I then placed one on top of the other. Let me just say that if one of them was the key to your house, the other one would open the door with no problem at all.
DEAD MATCH!!!
Coincidence?????????? What are the odds of that?????????
For those of who say the only thing in common is that they are both cars, or that it is the call of an umpire, and more blah blah blah . . . I say print the page and overlay the two images.
Beware the Lexus sharpshooters . . . they are good . . . VERY good.
TagMan
Of course, the LS implementation could differ.
There are many advances which reduce driver input but are clearly superior (ABS anyone?). While traction control can create problems, it solves more. I love to drive, but when the roads are icy, I certainly don't mind the car choosing to switch from RWD to AWD and kicking in the ESC.
I have never ever bought a slush box and have no intention to. The 83 MB300D slushbox of my wife's is a family heirloom passed on from my father. The slushbox was not my choice and if it was I would have picked 83 MB240D with a stick.
Would you rather all cars have a 4-speed MT since the most engaging part of driving is rowing your own gears ?
No I am a Luddite who likes 6 speed sticks.
Actually, I'm not faulting Lexus for this. It's brilliant strategy. I'm just saying that they see a mousetrap and try to improve it. The Japanese have ALWAYS utilized COPYING and then attempting to IMPROVE as a business model. Stop the denial already. It's what they do!!!!
Sometimes germancarfans are in denial on certain things, and sometimes lexicans are.
Designman though is one of the few here who is relatively unbiased. Plus, he is a design professional. I for one respect his opinions when it comes to styling.
Designman though is one of the few here who is relatively unbiased. Plus, he is a design professional. I for one respect his opinions when it comes to styling.
I second every word of what syswei said here....
A tribute to Chris Bangle's greatness.
My college degree many years ago in advertising taught me plenty about marketing hype, strategy, rhetoric, and good-old-fahioned BS. The advertising company I currently own is deeply involved with graphics design, print production and digital imaging.
I may not be as unbiased or credible as designman in your opinion, and perhaps he is a design engineer of some sort, and I respect all of that, whatever it may be, but his opinion is not more relevant than others. It sounds like it carries a bit more weight with you guys, however, and that's fine with me.
I call it like I see it, no matter what the brand is. I've said that before.
I am convinced that the "Lexus people" have brilliantly targeted first Mercedes Benz and more recently BMW. That's the way I see it.
TagMan
General rule of thumb - the more something costs the more likely it's leased if leasing is available.
Where'd he get that car? KBB price on trade-in for a 2003 745i with no options and 70k miles in Fair condition is $30k.....
TagMan your background is interesting. Except for our opinions of Lexus/BMW styling we have a lot in common. I did some heavy-duty time in advertising years ago as a creative director and art director. Things changed with the ingress of computers, for the better I might add. I hope your business is doing well too.
Graphics departments are full digital workflow, numerous PC and MAC platforms, designers utilizing mostly all Adobe CS at this point (some remaining Quark). Production side is ALL HEIDELBERG (German ) with Xerox providing the on-demand minor digital relationship.
Love it, too.
I guess you don't see the Lexus/BMW style connection that is emerging, but that's OK with me.
TagMan
Hmmm, tagman, I have to say if you take those very small pictures of the side of each of the LS and the 7, and put them next to each other, there is a resemblance. But the small size of the pics (which takes out a lot of the detail) and the particular view chosen can make a lot of cars look similar.
I do think the '07 LS looks more like a 7 than an S, and conversely the previous model LS looks more like an S than a 7. So there may be something to what you are saying.
On the other hand, I think the previous S looks much better than the current LS, but the '07 LS looks much better than a current 7. So whatever Lexus is doing, they're getting better at it!
To my eye, and with the proviso that I haven't seen either of the '07 models in person, I'd rank them in this order for pure exterior styling:
'06 S (the ultimate large car that hides its bulk)
'07 LS (looking extremely well put-together)
'06 LS (nice but plain)
'07 S (can't stand the wheel flares)
'06 7 (can't stand the butt, and the overall chopiness)
Only in your dreams sir.
2. We do not even know how much the new LS will cost, so there is no basis to your claim regarding whether they will sell in the same price range at all. IMHO, those who think new LS will have an MSRP under $60k are dreaming, unfortunately (as much as I would like to share that dream myself).
Well we'll see what it cost, but I bet it isn't going to be more than 65k to start either way.
M
Through all this garble about leasing there isn't a single fact as to how many lease vs buy. One a bet and hunch. So what if they are mainly leased, still doesn't apply to everyone buying one of these cars unless everyone leases.
M
Do you seriously think a 15-20K price advantage doesn't help the LS in being a sales leader? Here is where you other Lexus fans theory about sales starts to fall apart. One minute you point to sales as being the indication as to what the "best" product is in a particular segment, yet when a Lexus vehicle isn't the top seller in its respective class we get all these excuses about production capacity, Lexus being understaffed and what not. That is absurd. One minute sales deterimines the "best" and the next min the "best" is whatever Lexus fan say it is - because they sales theory can't be applied.
M