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High End Luxury Cars

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    sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Fair enough and I wasn't aware of some of that, but Nissan only went as high as a 3.5-liter, 2WD version.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    No, not you...it is never you it was other Lexicans...!

    And I hope you'll admit that going to effectively infinite gear ratios as in the CVT of the LS600 is a "bigger" jump from MB's 7-speed than MB's 7-speed was versus its competition at the time of introduction.

    Possibly after it comes to market, but CVTs don't feel normal to me and they're pretty much no fun at all IMO. I suspect that is one reason (along with new power levels) that the LS600's CVT is dual-mode or whatever they're calling it.

    M
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    sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Dual mode, two-stage, whatever, they haven't explained what that might mean.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I suspect it will be something to counteract the normally lifeless feel/operation of a normal CVT with an extra mode for high-speed, big-hp driving that this car will no doubt be capable of.

    M
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    sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    That makes sense, a "normal" and "power" setting.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    that makes it double tough to speculate on 600 prices!

    As I've said before, I expect the 460 to be just under $65k, and $80k loaded. Add $5k for LWB.

    And the 600 would probably be $90-95k.

    I would get right under $100k, personally. I don't see it being more than $5k more than the most expensive 460.

    DrFill
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    They did that several years ago an dhad to develop a lot of technology on their own to do even that.

    They do a 3.5 liter AWD now in the murano although that is a transverse engine and transmission mount.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I Vote B.

    I'll have a little more fun and guess the base price will be: (drumroll)

    $91,350.

    If it ends up coming in less than 90K, I'll nickname the car "The Predator" . . . cause that would be predatory pricing, no doubt.

    TagMan
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    a diesel hybrid is going to be a mightly expensive car. I mean Mercedes can sell one at the S-Class level, but at the E-Class level it would be ridiculously priced out of the E's market segment making it pointless IMO.

    Good point. Heck, even the AMG version of an E can put it into questionable territory, IMO, at a tad over $82K.

    merc, BTW, the official pics of the new C are very encouraging. And, believe it or not . . . it's NOT a clone. Mercedes will have a good volume car in the new C, without a doubt. It seems to me MB is on track. :)

    TagMan
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That's why I said it's a free market research period. But the problem here is that in order to judge the interest accurately one needs to give some bandwidth on price.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    That's why I said it's a free market research period. But the problem here is that in order to judge the interest accurately one needs to give some bandwidth on price.

    Yes, but unless the price is a shock, the bandwidth is assumed by those signing up. The vast majority would have the confidence that the price will be appropriate enough, and will pay whatever it ultimately turns out to be.

    Further, once the price is announced, the pre-order list will solidify.

    Hey, are you on a Blackberry or something?

    TagMan
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    If the car is at the price level you think (sub $85K) then they might as well forget making the LS460L and make about 35K of the LS600H models because they'd have no problem selling that many. Common business sense says this car is at least $95K and more likely $100-105K. You need to think this out - you already have a SWB ultra priced at $72K. They are going to add a more powerful engine plus a hybrid on top of that, a LWB, AWD, a bunch of added tech gizmos, a plusher car etc etc - for $10-12K? Forget it - no chance on earth.

    Tagman - absolutely hate the blackberry.
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    sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    OK, Toyota/Lexus is only the first to use a CVT with a mass-production 5-liter engine, and first to use a CVT with a hybrid powertrain (1997 Prius), so it is more of an evolutionary ionnovation.
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    2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    I was just on Lexus Canada website looking at the pricing of the 450h. Guess what, the MSRP is about CAD 77K loaded to the hill. The MSRP of a fully loaded GS430 can go as high as CAD 88K with no noticeable difference in equipments (base = 74K). I was real surprise since I read almost everywhere that hybrid is suppose to cost more than the comparable regular ICE.
    Perhaps, the LS600 pricing will also be close to the LS460l +- AWD costs.
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Apples and oranges. The GS hybrid is a V6 and the GS 430 is a V8. The LS hybrid is the LS460 + Hybrid + AWD + plus items that won't be available on the LS460 or 460L. There may not even be an option available on the car as it's likely every conceivable item is included in one price. Finally there is no V6 LS so any comparative to the GS pricing schemes fail. Now if you had a V6 LS and added hybrid then I could see the price issue you raise. But this car is touted as one of the most technologically advanced cars on earth. It's not going to cross the finish line a nose ahead of a loaded LS460L. If that was the case than why bother building the latter.
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    2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    I almost agree with you here, but if you looked at it from the hp angle, the 450h has more than the current 430 and would easily kick b*tt in straight line...
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'll bet you a lot that the GS450H is a bandaid car. The real GS hybrid will use the V8 once the LS debuts. There was no way that Lexus was loading up that GS hybrid as it's techno marvel and big power car. That was always LS territory and a car like that has to be your powerhouse car. Once the LS paves the way the GS hybrid will join the party in a different form than you have now. That will also fix the pricing issues on the GS. Eventually the current GS hybrid engine will find its way into the ES IMO.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tagman - absolutely hate the blackberry.

    I was curious. I don't use one, either. About a month ago I was getting these messages from one of the coaches of an NBA team, because it turned out that his son is on the Little League Team that I am manager of. He said he was using a Blackberry and I was amazed at the way it seemed to communicate. So, I was wondering if you were posting to the forum on a similar mobile unit or something to that effect, as opposed to the usual computer. Thanks.

    So, you think my prediction of $91,350 base price is too low?

    TagMan
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    It's right in the ballpark with mine at $95K. But it's a function of what's standard and what's optional. If there are no options than I see it at or just over $100K. If it comes in base plus options then more likely a price as low as yours or mine plus the options. But if they tweak it to 500+ horses than it's north of $110K and could go to $120K. But it most certainly is not going to be an $82-85K car vs a $77-78K loaded LS460L. If that was the case it'll sell at 10-15K over sticker from the demand and the dealers rather than Lexus makes the money on a limited production car. That one makes zero business sense.
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    tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I find myself thinking there won't be too many options, otherwise with so few units built, it would be too restrictive from a manufacturing standpoint.

    More importantly, I don't think the car would get much above a $100K base, no matter how many ponies they squeeze out of it, but again, you could be correct. I think Toyota/Lexus would not want to indicate that hybrid technology is THAT expensive, no matter what the HP outcome, IMO, because they will be making so many hybrid vehicles available across the board over the next years.

    In addition to selling this LS hybrid, which will be a slam dunk, IMO, Toyota/Lexus will have a dual role of sorts . . . as they take on a commanding, but nonetheless challenging, position of continuing the sales pitch on hybrid technology itself . . . which will not be the same slam dunk. So, using this vehicle as a contributing means to that end, will likely result in some important price constraint, IMO.

    In other words, I just can't see it being in Toyota/Lexus's best interest to represent hybrid technology as all too expensive, regardless of HP. I do, however, see them representing it as an awesome technology, to spawn greater interest across the board, and this upcoming LS600hL will do just that . . . and do it with spades.

    TagMan
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    All valid and excellent points. By and large most of us see prices between 90-100K it seems.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    BTW, Lexus execs let out after the Press Conference that they expect the car to get about 22 MPG, combined.

    I don't see a way many dealers will adjust prices upward ("Market Adjustment") either, without butchering their SSI scores.

    I doubt Lexus wants to overprice any Hybrids. They want to put the most attractive spin they can on any Hybrid they produce. A $100k+ base price is highly unlikely.

    Any dealer jacking-up the price of a Hybrid will have Hell to pay from Corporate! :mad:

    The only way around that is go "Pimp My Ride" style, and stuff the car with many extras that have some value, but may turn off some buyers, a way of balancing supply and demand. Also unlikely and short-sighted, but possible.

    "Vinyl Roof Pkg." - $4995

    "Strobe Light Enhancement" - $1495

    DrFill
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    But if a car has 450-500HP the issue becomes whether you are selling a hybrid or whether you are selling a powerful car. All Lexus corp. talk leads with the latter and plays in the green benefits of the former. I think looking at this or analyzing it as a pure hybrid sale is one huge mistake.

    Price - if 10,000 people show up to buy 2,000 cars the price is going up fast and the worries of dealing with the beauracracy of corporate honchos that may be upset about it will be dealt with later. This is the ordinary law of supply and demand and it's universal. People that buy these cars are not dumb - they know how business works when something is over-demanded and under-supplied. One thing I've also learned is never underestimate the power of a retailer. Several NY/NJ dealers sold the ultra at $5k over sticker in 2001 and none of them slipped in rank. In fact all of them are bigger and more important to Lexus today.
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    designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I think the LS hybrid could be priced anywhere from $85-125k considering what it brings to the table and depending on Lexus’ marketing strategy. No doubt, this is a leading edge car that comes from methodical hands.

    What I want to know more about is the market demand. Hybrids are virtually nowhere except for Prius. Accord failed and the others are languishing. Do you hear the song that hpowders keeps singing? It seems to the voice of the market. The majority do not want hybrids right now. Hybrid is synonymous with fuel economy and clean air, not performance. No one has to convince me of Toyota’s accomplishments but the public isn’t buying it yet. I wonder why—price.

    Toyota/Lexus was about bargains. It ain’t the case anymore with hybrid, and there’s no denying this. Even if the LS600 sells 10K off the bat, regardless of whether it is priced at $75K or $150K, it won’t mean squat to the masses.

    The Camry hybrid is showing good performance/fuel economy numbers but is not in the economic range for buyer desire. Camry will be a telltale and if it can’t emulate the come-hither appeal of Prius, the hybrid market is going to move at a glacial pace. You know how the cost of memory and storage came down? Well, damn it, when is going to happen? It’s been 9 years since Prius hit the market.

    Don’t mind me. NYIAS is Cinco de Mayo. Just gimee a shot of Cuervo and get on with the lilt of that Lexican Hat Dance. I know a good party when it’s happening.

    ;-)
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    oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The more you examine the LS600hL, the more you come to realise that it could very well be 1989 all over again. Imagine the level of details/features on this car and the promises made by Lexus:

    - quietest car in the world
    - lowest NVH car in the world
    - world's first with LED headlights
    - four-setting climate control including body scanning
    - hybrid (V8)-AWD (may also have an LSD ?)
    - 2-stage CVT/8-speed tranny (another first)
    - pedestrian avoidance feature (another first)
    - self-park feature
    - full leather-stitched dashboard (very nice)
    - while traditional V-12 cars lead to gaz-guzzler tax, this car gives you tax credits with hybrid :)
    - with over 400HP and yet rated at SULEVII, one of the cleanest breathing car in the world !!!
    - delivers sub-5s 0-60, and mpg in the low-20s range !!!
    - over 30 new features in this car.... just incredible...

    This car is wickedly nice !!!

    Would hybrid sell ? YES, absolutely... Gas is going to creep up as we get into the summer driving. Geo-political events may excarbate gasoline price, and people will be scooping up these mid-level gas-efficient cars - Camry, Civic. Already a survey of the public showed 40% say they are concerned enough about high gas prices to replace their current car with a hybrid or better gas-saving car. When gas hits $4/gallon, watch the stampede...

    At the top-tier of the HELM space, a hybrid-AWD super luxury sedan brings a lot of things into play. The car has gobs of power, gobs of torque, speed at your pleasure, superior refinement, luxurious, build quality, NVH, and electronic gizmos seemlessly integrated, performance and handling, and you get a great mpg to boot. People buying at the $100K price range want it all, and this car offers them everything they'd want in a car, except self-drive itself :)

    Like Tagman, I predict a super success for hybrid in the NA market, and the Prius is driving the $25K market (bottom-rung) and the 600hL will drive the top-tier $100K market. Everyone else just need to scramble for the middle which the GS, Camry, Civic, Highlander, Escape, soon to come Tundra, and others will fill nicely.

    I have been seriously considering a hybrid myself, but my little Matrix is OK (for now) at 25mpg.... At $65 a fill-up for my LX470, and 11mpg (ouch !), I can easily see how someone like me may be interested in a hybrid car. I know the 600hL is way above my pay-grade, that's the only reason I am not buying, not bcos I don't want one :)
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Both of us have statements on record. Unfortunately we have one year to wait.

    Lets see who is proven right.

    I can already smell a home run for me here, he he he
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    and is trying to forecast a downturn, but the numbers they provide don't back them up.

    They list the days supply as follows:

    Prius - 8 days

    Civic - 12

    Highlander 34

    Rx400h - 34

    Escape - 61

    Accord - 90+


    What I was taught was 60 days was considered average supply, so Accord is the only one really missing the target.

    Sales reports say Toyota/Lexus are selling about 4k hybrid SUVs a month. At prices starting near $40k for a HLH, those numbers would pop my cork! :D

    DrFill
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Dr. Fill

    This is not the proper thread for your analysis, although you are right. As far as high end luxury marques go read this new report from Luxury Institute.

    The ranking of most prestigious brands is:

    1. Porsche
    2. Benz
    3. Lexus
    4. BMW
    5,6-13 others including volvo, jaguar, saab, cadillac lincoln, acura, infiniti, audi etc.

    http://www.luxuryinstitute.com/doclib/doclib_popup.cgi?file=88-8b6c254c900fe1b8b- - e9685d0e0c78c6d.pdf
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    In North America Yes, it will do it in spades. But in Europe, it will be much tougher.

    Lexus has been a disaster so far in Europe. Their lack of diesel expertise (No V6, no V8 and V10) only one I4.

    Among the three 100 million + mature markets. Lexus is successful in only one.

    1. North America: Hit
    2. Europe: Disaster
    3. Japan: Struggling.

    You cannot say Lexus has arrived unless it less similar volumes compared to BMW in Europe. On their home turf!
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    When Lexus swings for the fences in Europe and if it misses then you can use the disaster word. So far they've attempted nothing more than a bunt. There have been numerous stories now about Lexus building plants in Germany and other European cities. When they do that, rest assured they will have no problem gaining market share. If you know anything about Euroope you'll know that if you don't build it there it won't sell unless of course the Europeans don't build it. Europe is extremely nationalistic and isn't changing anytime soon. It's why you need 95% of all shareholders to vote yes on an acquisition of a European company. So think about that - if the founding fathers keep a 6% share of the original stock they can prevent what 94% of the shareholders want. Does that make any sense other than nationalistic and fatherly pride?
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Industry experts are all zeroing in on a $100K price tag.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/15/automobiles/autospecial/15luxury.html
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    blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    dr phil, the above data are distributed bimodally, few days (34 or fewer) and many days (60 days and way above). Because of this abnormal distribution, you should look at at the median (the mid point where 50% of the cases are above and 50% are below). Median point for the above data is 34. My conclusion is that everything is fine except for Honda and Ford.
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    lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It will be interesting to see what happens to RX400h sales when the RX350 is readily available. I dont get Toyota's thinking on this one at all. It will be as fast, or faster than the RX400h, with better handling, and cheaper. Real world reports on the RX400h's mileage arent so great. Edmunds averaged something like 22mpg with their tester. If the RX350 gets 17-20mpg, where is the business case for the RX400h?
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The RX400h will quietly go away for a little while and come back as the RX450h.
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Lexus building plants in germany and European Cities?

    Thats totally insane speculation.

    Even in North America, lexus built first plant for lexus in Canada after 15 years and that too after reaching a 200,000 plus volume.

    Its business madness to make a plant in Europe. Thats not the reason why Lexus is not selling.

    Besides Europeans may be nationalistic but there are a dozen major and dozen minor european nations. You cannot build plant in every nation. Thats absurd.

    The real reason is that Europeans are much more set in their ways and much less inquisitive and daring and experimental.

    They do not try new things easily and they have old nostalgia of european superiority. A xenophobia Lite if you will.

    Also its about Lexus products. Lexus is absolutely lousy in diesels.

    The biggest reason however is the cut-rate image of Lexus. This image can sell cars in US but in europe where society is more hierarchical, Luxury and cut-rate dont go well together.

    Luxury means something not attainable, something hard to obtain, and that unattainability makes it more desirable. If you offer value, you are making it the anti-thesis of rarity and unattainability.

    Thats where lexus has done enormous damage to itself. The europeans are not convinced how can a brand offer luxury and value at the same time. Thats the american mentality. The deal. The deal.

    It will not work in Europe. In Europe Luxury and Cut-rate are opposite terms and never the two shall meet. In Europe Luxury means Luxury. Period. No value pricing, cut-rate mass-market luxury or this or that marketing gimmick.

    Thats why all the top brands with $100K+ cars are from Europe and more precisely, Britain, Germany and Italy.

    Think about it. Its psychology. And germans fully understand this.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Good point. Heck, even the AMG version of an E can put it into questionable territory, IMO, at a tad over $82K.

    Well the E55 is allowed considering mind-bending performance you get.

    Yeah I'm excited about the next C also. It will be a crucial car for MB because it is a volume seller as they turn back to updating their sedan lineup.

    M
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Lexus not building cars in Europe is only half the problem, the other is that they don't offer what the European market wants most - diesels. The new IS diesel model is the only one. I order to get with Mercedes/BMW and Audi, yes Audi....a powerhouse head and shoulders above Lexus in Europe, they need a V6 and a V8 diesel in every product they sell. Mercedes, BMW and Audi now sell diesels in some of their convertibles, CLK320 CDI, 330Cd for example. Even the gas/electric hybrids aren't going to put them on the map over there because they're more expensive than the gas versions and nobody buys those to begin with.

    Lexus isn't going to do anything in Europe no matter whether it is a bunt or a swing at the fences until they get with the program (diesels).

    M
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    You are right about diesels. Please read my post #14863. It gives additional reasons.
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Bunt and fences and no amount of hula dance will do here. Lexus will not succeed in Europe unless it gets rid of the cancer of cut-rate mentality.
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Its business madness to make a plant in Europe"

    Why on earth is it business madness to invest in Europe?

    Reports of Lexus planning for European production have been in several business pubs and I even saw one in autospies if the latter matters.

    "Bunt and fences and no amount of hula dance will do here. Lexus will not succeed in Europe unless it gets rid of the cancer of cut-rate mentality."

    Whatever - if that's your feeling I'm not about to attempt business logic here. Just remember we are talking about people who buy cars that are practically stripped down to basics and who also rated Toyota and Lexus as the most reliable brands out there - right in the homeland of Germany. But sure they have a zero percent chance in your book.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't get it. What does being voted most reliable have to do with providing the right products for the right market? All the reliability stuff hasn't meant anything because Lexus doesn't offer the right products to have any real presence in Europe. Now if they bring out a V6 diesel for the GS and LS they'll get somewhere off the back of their already stellar reputation, but until then the reliability angle isn't going to cut it.

    I don't really agree that Lexus doesn't have a chance in Europe, I just don't think they have one with their current engine/product lineup. Diesels are needed, thats all the "business logic" needed. You don't have to be a industry captain or "business expert" to get that.

    M
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    It will be business madness to invest in manufacturing in Europe unless lexus achieves a sizeable volume.

    I never made a blanket statement that "its a business madness to invest in Europe".

    Invest in what? Sales and Marketing and publicity, yes, by all means. But Manufacturing and plants. A clear and unambiguous No.

    Merc has it right. Lexus is in deep trouble without diesels. They are not present in 60% of the market without diesels. I am sure the Toyota execs are smart enough and looking into diesels and working seriously to get those engines asap.

    But cut-rate pricing. I dont know. In Europe its not going to work. Same with Asia where societies are very hierarchical. Luxury means Luxury. No value and cut-rate mess there.
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    Most reliable does not mean instant success in Europe.

    Just because you have a loyal girlfriend does not mean you will buy her that favorite necklace instantly.

    She has to have allure, excitement and a certain charm.

    I never said zero percent chance. After all chance is chance. Businesses dont work on chance. They have to work at every opportunity and grab it with passionate hands.

    Those opportunities are the new products in Lexus line-up where now they have the opportunity to price them head-to head with germans.

    And number two an intense focus on diesels and diesel-hybrids as the next evolutionary step on gas-hybrids.
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Ok - you win. They have no chance. I guess they don't even know what a diesel is. Now check back in 5-10 years and we'll see the real story.

    Merc1 - simple - the products they've introduced and are selling in the market lead in satisfaction and reliability.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Merc1 - simple - the products they've introduced and are selling in the market lead in satisfaction and reliability.

    True and they haven't made so much as a dent in the market yet after 15+ years of being in Europe. I'm speaking of Lexus, not the regular Toyotas.

    If you don't see where surveys and reliability will only take you so far then I'm not sure what else to tell you.

    Its like the world's best singer with poor material.

    M
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I dont think so. I am pretty sure the Toyota management and engineers know darn well what a diesel is and what it can do to them (in a good way) in Europe.

    Its a question of priorities and I believe instead of pouring Billions (and I mean literally) in Formula1 trash-can they should use those dollars or euros to accelerate the diesel program.

    And this IS the real story, it doesnt get any more real than this.
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "The biggest reason however is the cut-rate image of Lexus"

    Guess I missed this before. Who are they cut-rate to?? - You.

    "I dont think so. I am pretty sure the Toyota management and engineers know darn well what a diesel is and what it can do to them (in a good way) in Europe"

    If they've been a total failure so far, as you imply (even though you seem to overlook that the gains of Toyota are large ever since they got serious about Europe) than how can they be hurt. Something that has failed can't be hurt.

    Do you honestly think a company as well run as Toyota and with all its financial clout doesn't know what to do or how to succeed? But as I said I'll cede your point. They will fail - now in 5 years or so check back and see the changes in marketshare positions.

    Anyway your taunts are over the top and silly, so this is the last time I bother responding to them.
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    stevekilburnstevekilburn Member Posts: 359
    I thought we were talking about Lexus. I fully agree with you that Toyota has been an okay success so far in Europe. And yes, I agree that they have good vision and financial clout.

    They also know how to succeed as they have attained it in all the major markets. Thats a moot point. I think we both agree on Toyota.

    My reflection was on Lexus' strategy.

    You will have to admit as Merc1 said that Lexus has been in Europe for 15 years. They should have seen it coming during those 15 years that diesel is becoming a much bigger pie than anybody could have imagined. But even a most astute company like Toyota was sufficiently slow in realizing and acting upon it (in European context) that now they are feeling the pinch. Only the IS has diesel and that too 4-cyl.

    Please dont be angry. If you are extremely hurt and undergoing trauma due to my observations I am sorry. Please do not get upset and try to control your precious emotions.

    If you still believe that my comments are taunts and that they are silly and over the top, please go ahead and slam me. But if you think you are different in your judgment and in better control of your emotions now than before, I would be happy to interact with you. And please remember

    Roses are Red Violets are Blue
    O my Lexus where are you
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    killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    I don't get it. What does being voted most reliable have to do with providing the right products for the right market?

    Reliability is a necessary quality for any main stream car. MB and BMW can still sell because they WERE reliable and some of their models are marginally acceptable. But that will not stay static in the face of strong competition.

    All the reliability stuff hasn't meant anything because Lexus doesn't offer the right products to have any real presence in Europe.

    Do you realize that Lexus is a North American brand for many years? Toyota introduced Lexus to Japan itself last year. Of course, you can export the car to any country in the world. But the emphasis is clear.

    The fact that Lexus doesn't offer the right product to you, does not imply that Lexus cannot please the average Joe in Germany. You are not part of that demography, so don't speak for other people.
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's not make this personal ...
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