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2006 titled “Night View Assist”.
The 450h is indeed faster than the 430, but Lexus has the 460 lined up for 2007. It will match or exceed the 450h's performance, without the tiny trunk penalty. Making the 450h AWD would at least give it a reason to exist other than being a "feel good" vehicle with very questionable mpg benefits.
BTW, Peugot Citroen plans on launching a diesel hybrid in 2010 according to R&T. Also, I read elsewhere that Toyota is indeed developing diesel hybrid. Pardon me if this was already discussed and I missed it. I imagine Toyota/Lexus fans and diesel fans would have picked up on that already.
TagMan
link title
What do you guys think and what do you normally do? Go the full monty with Acura or find a good local garage and have them do the work for half price?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
M
So for a 1 to 1 an LED may be cheaper than a bulb, but when you buy 15 (est) for one side the price goes up .or not.
1990 LS400 --> 4.0L V8, 250hp: this engine ran for 10 years (1990 - 2000), and only a marginal tweak to 278hp for the Gen-2 LS (1998 - 2000).
2001 - 2006 --> 4.3L V8, 278hp: this engine was re-bored to get an additional .3L displacement, but no real dynamic change in output.
2007 LS460 --> 4.6L V8 380hp: wow !!! Lexus goes from 4.3L to 4.6L and increases output >100hp !!! To wring out 380hp from that little displacement is outstanding, especially considering it takes almost 1L extra displacement for MB to come up with the same 380hp in the new S550. Props to Lexus and their engineers for this marvel of enigneering....
Now imagine if Lexus had a tuner division, what could they do to these fine engines in the IS (3.5L 306hp) and LS (4.6L 380hp) ! In the IS350, the displacement/hp ratio of ~90 is only matched or exceeded by Porsche. In the LS460, it blows away the 750i and S550's motor performance which requires a 5.0L or higher displacement to compete with Lexus' 4.6L motor.
The new 5.0L V8 in the LS600h must have close to 450hp (~90*5L ~ 450), although Lexus will detune it for luxury and performance with the hybrid. That's why it is difficult to imagine a 430hp in the LS600h which includes two batteries! I daresay, this engine will see a lotta work in future upgrades of the LS, and we can expect within a few years to see an LS500, with outputs exceeding 400hp, with a concomittant upgrade of the LS600h to >500hp. Yum !
Depends. If you've got a mechanic or private import service shop or two in the area that are reputable and that you KNOW you can trust, it can definately be BETTER then the dealership sometimes, but it really depends on your connections and experience. Price difference matters, but peace of mind has a value, too.
Also, those items that they "check" beyond the service, that you were asking about, are nothing that a private mechanic can't also "check", and they are typically just glances at fittings, fluid levels, brakes, tire wear and tear, wipers, and bulbs. It's usually an opportunity for the dealership to find something else to service. Heck, bring the list of items to your private mechanic and ask him to "check" them out as well, if you think they are important.
Hope the car has been good for you.
TagMan
Nice little chart you made up there. Interesting. I'm thinking that the increase in 102 ponies is due to MORE than just a .3L displacement increase. Don't you think?
TagMan
M
So yes, the compact engines do have plenty of advantages. They're usually lighter, have more technology bestowed in them, and are very happy in the rev range. But the big-bore MB motors are a hoot to drive. These engines get more and more American-like with every iteration, in terms of sound and raw power.
P.S.- As for BMW, squeezing 360-hp out of only 4.8L is a huge accomplishment itself. And with Audi bumping hp numbers up to 365hp with the '07 A8's 4.2L engine(thanks to a switch to direct injection among other things), this hi-po compact engine craze is on the rise.
I would say 100 hp/Liter for even regular cars will become more common every year.
Acura has a turbocharged 4 cyl 2.4L producing 240 hp, 260 lbs of torque, so you cannot say they are low on torque.
With turbocharging you can do wonders.
Interestingly, the RDX will break with Honda tradition, using a (gasp!) turbo, and making more torque than horsepower.
It's very impressive that Audi is able to keep their 4.2L V8 competitive without having to increase displacement. They're going to have to do something soon with the "3.2" V6 though, because the A4 is being left in the dust by the IS350, G35, C350, and 335i.
I heard that the new VQ-II's will move to 3.8L with over 300hp in base trim. The next gen Z and Infinti Coupe(Skyline-based lets hope) will boast close to 400-hp. Who needs a V-8 when the Japanese are making V-6's outpace them?? I know, I know, us burly Americans want have it any other way.
But with the major shift to direct injection, car companies are able to squeeze out every ounce of potential performance from these engines. Just look at VW/Audi, which of whom are spearheading Germany's introduction into this amazing technology. Their 3.2L V-6 makes 250hp in both hp and torque yet returns 20/30 mpg in A6 form, w/AWD. And with the LS460 expected to gain 25% in average mpg because of DI, despite a fair amount of weight gain, makes this technology more than worth it. Now let's just get the diesel ball rolling.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=108988
M
Lexus LS is the car to beat in US, but Lexus is not a global brand which means they do not drive 20-30% sales from all the three major markets (North America, Europe and Asia Pacific).
Asia Pacific would include Japan, Korea, China, Australia, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and Thailand at least.
That is the barrier Lexus has to overcome. In other words if Lexus has to become the global gold standard they will have to sell at leas 25% of their cars in Europe and another 20% in Asia Pacific. The rest may come from N.A.
Also, although I accept that its silly to mention but Lexus LS 460L is still 2 inches shorter than S550.
Moreover it does not have high end models to compete with S65 AMG which costs 180,000 but that might change.
The LS 600hL is the first production Japanese car "EVER" to feature more than 400 hp and it took them 40 years. I am not sure if they will ever exceed 500 hp. They will instead focus on fuel economy.
But germans will probably break the 1000 hp barrier in not too distant future (discounting the Veyron, which is not a mass-produced car).
Imagine a S-class with 1000 hp roaring down the street with 6 mpg = city and 12 mpg = highway. Now wouldn't that be fun. It will strike terror in the hearts of prius drivers. :P
High rev engines in sedans will be a hit but they have make them silent.
Its pure passion. 10-cyl and 12-cyl is even better.
M5 with 500 hp V10 is as passionate as it gets, but the quality and health sucks.
BMWs and Benzes are not very healthy cars. They are like sick children on steroids.
S550 vs. LS600hL, or LS600hL vs S600, S550 vs. LS460L
I wonder which it will be?
M
Dare I ask what you mean by this?
M
I still think that one reason MB might be holding off on an S450 might be to force the auto rags to use the S550 in comparos...so that MB has a better chance of winning.
Infiniti could be another matter though. The M is much more "Germanic" than the GS, and could very conceivably have over 400hp in a few more years. I dont see Lexus using their V-10 in any of their sedans, but the GT-Rs upcoming 450+hp, 3.8L twin turbo engine could show up in an Infiniti product.
Is there a point to posting this?
Thanks for the laugh! :P
Its pure passion. 10-cyl and 12-cyl is even better.
IMO, I think there is a word for it:
TORQUE
What is horsepower without it's dear friend torque? Oh yes . . . Horsepower + Torque = [fill in the blank], and everyone say amen.
TagMan
Yeah I've thought about that one too. I really don't blame them if they are because all this talk about the LS beating the S-Class has been incorrectly hyped for years when the LS has only beaten one member of the "S-Class", the S430. It has never (that I've seen) beaten the S500, but I have seen the S500 beat the LS430 in MT when the LS430 and S500 were fairly new.
Everything I've read at other MB sites suggests that with around 25K sold so far (worldwide) this year that production is at full capacity so an entry-level S isn't needed right now. The S450 was to be a U.S. only model and it isn't needed now obviously. I suspect we'll see a S450 after MB goes direct-injection on all their petrol engines which will be in 2008 so it we be more competitive hp wise.
M
M
;-)
I do have some reservations about it though. IMHO, I think that the engineers could've spent more time focusing on the front-end of the car as it is not befitting of a Jag nor the $70k(est.) asking price, more so a Ford convertible, not Jag. The powertrain, while still refined, want stir up any debates. With only 300-hp(sounds like a lot, but this car ways over 2 tons), it's just not competitve anymore. I know there will be the XKR(and later the XKR-R), but those are forced-induction cars. And with companies like Mercedes switching back to normal aspiration, it seems unnecessary for superchargers and more or less like not spending time or money to develop hi-po sophisticated engines(long ago, this used to be a Jag strong point). And it still has a cloth top, with most every high-luxury switching/ed to hard/steel top. Maybe it's tradition, as Porsche refuses to conform to steel Cab models also(huge performance issue).
But those are small squables. The new XK should be a very good replacement for it's predecessor. Let's just hope they've increased headroom in this one.
Since the development of the small block Chev V8 in 1955, we have seen an abundance of high revving, oversquare (larger bore than the length of the stroke) V8s. These were developed for HP and packaging reasons, not low end torque. The torque monsters though tend to have longer strokes and are usually in-line sixes. Most Class 8 rigs run big in-line sixes for low end torque and longevity (there is room for more surface area for the rod bearing when you aren't cramming 8 rods in a Vee configuration onto a crankshaft). Have you ever seen an Army Duece and a Half with a V8? No, they want grunt, not revs. On the other hand, many modern V6s are often oversquare because they are literally just a V8 with two cylinders lopped off, eg. the recent Chev and Ford V6s.
You are right. But if reviewers start from the basic fact that these cars are "luxury-full-size-sedans", then it makes the S and LS already ahead of the pack. I'd wager that if you pack an 8-speed tranny with a 380HP/370IBft motor, and do a 0-60 in under 5.5s, you'd expect some real performance from the new LS460. If it has any underpinnings like in the new IS, then it should fare well in the comparo. The new S550 is a truly nice and beautiful car, excellent reviews befitting this car, but it has yet to go head-to-head against the competition. There is where we'll see how truly great these cars are.
Lexcuses, you say ? We'll see who would be doing this.... What would Merc1 have to say if the S550 doesn't win out over the LS460L ? I guess you can always use the 8-speed tranny in the LS as an excuse, eh ? But like Lexusguy, the LS460 already won in my garage, as I am biased towards buying this car. But, my wife currently has her sights on the 750i.. Huh ??? I don't get it... I guess we'll see soon enough...
M
No where near as many excuses given by Lexicans when a Lexus (IS350, SC430 etc.) doesn't win a comparo.
Some Lexus fans were already crying foul just because MT's speculation about the new LS (before they got the correct info) had incorrect hp and gear numbers. That was clearly a warmup for excuse making if MT doesn't put the LS460 on top.
M
They did mention that the new S-Class is one of the finest in the world but a little short on "sport."
For me, not surprisingly, for these kind of serious bucks, I would go with the 750 Li, a perfect compromise between luxury and sport in the HELMREALM, IMO.
Well I think you and Lexusguy have pretty much summed up how it will go. It will all depending on who is doing the testing and how big the inevitable price difference will matter.
M
They did mention that the new S Class is a technological marvel but a little short on "sport."
I think they're waiting until they can test all the new entries at once because they're only one of the 4 major magazines that hasn't tested the S550 yet. Even the non-testers at Automobile have had a more through writeup on the new S already.
M
Probably sometime in the Fall.