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This morning New Yorkers on their way to work were greeted with Audi's Park Avenue parade that marked the R8's first official drive on U.S. soil and the opening of the company's new Audi Forum located at 250 Park Avenue. Autoblog reader Ahmed M. was on hand and armed with a camera phone. He sent us these pics of the R8, R10 Le Mans racer and 1938 Auto Union Type D Silver Arrow, the latter of which was one of the world's first mid-engined racecars. NYC mayor Michael Bloomberg was reportedly on hand to deliver the R8 to the Forum, which is not a dealership but rather a brand awareness space that will educate New Yorkers on the Audi experience and can also host events up to 150 people.
Source
M
They've got a lot of work to do. Diesels don't run out of power when driven hard, they actually work on the highway, and they don't get their trunk space chopped in half. If the GS450h can only beat a 550i by 3mpg, its going to get crushed by a 535d. Until Toyota can fix all of those issues, pass.
M
If it wasn't for the promised pate, the vintage vino and most importantly, the tranquilized German Shepherd attack dogs, it would be a good bet that I would be a no-show.
However, after all the hype and mixed reviews, I am a bit curious to try the LS for myself.
I do want to check out the rear and see if it's any less ugly than its cousin, the ghastly Camry.
I am also waiting on the first diesel wave and wondering what the EPA will do to try and stop it. I am sure they will come up with something. I can't wait to get my hands on an Accord diesel for an every day driver.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I do want to check out the rear and see if it's any less ugly than its cousin, the ghastly Camry.
More accurate would be mixed "previews", as the C&D article used that word rather prominently.
It certainly is less ugly than the S550.
Few cars have been more complimented in their renewed styling than the new Camry. Well, except for the Next LS!
DrFill
The same can be said about your car company Lexus. Why does every IS I see is an IS250, not the much better IS350? Because that particular car represents a much better value over it's more expensive variant. The same with Audi. The little 200hp 2.0T hooked with DSG beats out most 6 cyl. cars in it's class(save for the 3.5L Lexus and the new 3-Series Turbo) and it gets 34 mpg, so Doc, it's a no-brainer.
Wonder why Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus offer no 4-bangers?
The IS has two sixes, so I don't know why you brought it up.
Audi is on pace to sell about 40k A4s, less than 30k would be 4-bangers. Many under $30k transcation price. Nothing to crow about, thur.
Americans aren't paying $30k plus for 4-bangers. That's not a good long term strategy. :sick:
DrFill
I do love the little extras.
One BMW staffer who has worked with the new CEO Reithofer says he "never spoke about Mercedes. He was always looking over his shoulder at Toyota.
Over the next decade, BMW expects Lexus and Infiniti brands to set up plants in Europe and then hire German engineers to work on building cars with BMW-like handling. Within five years, predicts Reithofer, it could be "Lexus that we will be most busy competing with.
Fascintating stuff! In other words the BMW CEO thinks Lexus and Infiniti will threaten BMW by raiding its staff of German engineers to work on cars that can out-handle BMWs.
Isn't that what is happening now in Detroit? Are not some of the best American engineers, designers and management moving to Japanese companies?
The key driver to BMW's success is their brilliant engineers. Once Lexus and Infiniti starts stealing their engineers then BMW will have no advantage over their Japanese competitors. In this case the CEO of BMW has every right to be worried.
And remember this threat is not only restricted to BMW. Porsche, MB and VW/Audi may end up with the scenario of trying to keep their engineers from leaving to Japanese car makers. Unfortunately Toyota and to a certain extent Nissan have the financial resouces to pay for the best engineers in the world. Unfortunately the same cannot be said about the more financially constrained German marques. BMW and Porsche are generating amazing profit margins but both marques are not big enough in terms of size to compete with the Japanese marques.
Enjoy your amazing car.
There also appears to be a possible error in that Businessweek article. A AWD coupe is currently available in the form of a BMW 328xi coupe. I think what Businessweek meant is a four door coupe from BMW that will compete with the MB CLS during 2008.
Personally I think Jaguars would look best in the form of a four door coupe. Especially in burgundy.
The A4 is the only car currently in it's class that offers 4cyl, V6, and V8 engines with DSG, 5 and 6 speeds and the choice of 2 or AWD in the US. ALL other makes(save for the IS) come in 4 cylinder versions in their respective homeland. Even the Chinese CTS has a corporate Ecotec under the hood as the standard engine.
Nothing to "crow" about maybe, especially since the IS light has dimmed considerably, no doubt on anticipation for the new twin-turbo 335i sedan and new '07 320-hp A4 3.2
Why market AWD in the SunBelt?
Why market a Cabriolet in the state of Maine in January?
Why show the first 3 row SUV in your lineup without any seats being utilized, and making it worst, driving down an urban street without anyone on the street?
Point is, the public is mostly unaware of Audi's product north of the A4. Most have latched on to the ultra-posh A6, but the A8 has been left out in the cold. And at the rate they're going, the Q7 to the public looks like yet another SUV in this crowded field.
They have to seperate themselves from VW much the way MB does from Chrylser and Lexus does with Toyota. This goes for styling options, marketing, dealers, and even some engineering that was once exclusive to Audi, altho on that one, they're on the right track developing cars that will be Audi only.
Doc posted:
If you've read any of Merc's posts over the past 5 years or so, you'd see what is wrong with Lexus'/LS' image/perception.
My reply:
Doc, to be honest with ya, I know very well about the Lexus image and some of the truth it is based upon . . . I'm just glad to see you would admit that there is an image problem with the Lexus. :P
And it is certainly nice to see you using Merc's posts to substantiate your perspective. Fascinating that you suddently agree with Merc.
Well, according to some of those past posts made by Merc, which you refer to and indicate you agree with, part of the Lexus perception/image problem is that they look too much like Toyotas.
Perhaps the two of you are right about that.
TagMan
Dewey, I think that's highly unlikely. All the development engineering, even for vehicles sold exclusively outside Japan like Tundra and Titan, is done in Japan. Very unlikely many German engineers speak Japanese or want to relocate to Japan.
But apparently Infiniti can make BMW caliber cars using its own engineers.
The G's revised 3.5-liter V6 makes an impressive 306 hp and 268 lb-ft of torque. But those numbers only tell part of the story. The rest becomes clear as the G's tach needle blasts straight past its old 6600-rpm redline on its way to a genuinely usable 7500 rpm. Those extra 900 revs allow the true enthusiast some serious involvement that would never happen with a lesser engine. Like, say, the 3.0-liter straight-6 in BMW's 330i.
And the G will hold its own against the 3 in any handling showdown — our slalom tests show only 0.3-mph difference between the two in the slalom. Heck, I even prefer the G's chassis over the legendary Bimmer. And that just doesn't happen very often.
-- Edmunds editor Jacquot
This brings up an interesting tidbit. Ferdinand Piech, who is an outstanding engineer , a grandson of Ferdinand Porsche, and is now the chairman of VAG, told the story that when he was young, he wanted to work for Honda and wrote them a letter. But he never heard back from them. History would've changed if he had made to the top at Honda!
To respond to you let me repeat exactly what was posted previously:
Over the next decade, BMW expects Lexus and Infiniti brands to set up plants in Europe and then hire German engineers to work on building cars with BMW-like handling. Within five years, predicts Reithofer, it could be "Lexus that we will be most busy competing with.
Lexus and Infiniti may be moving to Germany and if that is the case they are going to be hiring non-Japanese-speaking German engineers from BMW, MB, Audi and Porshe. These engineers will continue living in their houses in Germany and will not be required to fight Nagoya or Tokyo traffic on their way to work. In terms of automotive engineering the Japanese are still not up to German standards. In other respects the Japanese are ahead.
Also there is not one comparison review between the new G35 and dated BMW330i that indicated the G35 is an overall superior car. Now the new Infiniti G35 will have to compete with a superior BMW335i. I think it is very easy to predict which car will end up being a first choice.
It's about time that the ES and LS have a handsome distinctive look of their own.
Otherwise people like me will constantly be banging away that Lexus vehicles are nothing more than Toyotas with some upgrades.
In the November edition of C&D, the fav. mag to be talked about around here, has said that the BMW coupe's chassis doesn't feel quite as planted as the old 330i sedan, thus making it have a slight ponderous feel. The front tires no longer bites into apexes like before and give up traction way to early. The 0-60 times of both cars in manual transmission-equipped models may be identical, especially when the new G-Coupe gets here, as it will be lighter than the BMW.
But this is not to say it won't retain it's crown. Just not easily so like some would have it, particularly with an onslaught of new competition from Audi, Caddy, and MB.
It will just have to work harder. I do hope like hell they won't box Active Steering w/ Sport pkg, as this will be a virtual sucide. A 335iCoupe with SportPack, 6-speed, sans i-Drive, black/tan combo all for around $45k? Our car has arrived, as far as coupes are concerned....
The last G35 lost one comparo to the BMW in C&D, but won another on price advantage. The M45 has won every C&D comparo against the 5, on a price equal level and on an equipment equal level, so there can be no more whining about the 530i's unfair loss.
The inevitable G35S vs. 335i test is going to be a very close race, probably decided by 1 or 2 points. If BMW decides to send a car with AS and iDrive, they'll lose. If the BMW comes without them, it may or may not win. It all depends on how much weight C&D puts into the G's interior space advantage, superior NAV, and price advantage.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'd wait for a few more years. There will be a new Z, a new Supra, and a new S2000. Mazda must have something up their sleeve as well, because they won't want to be left out of the new Japanese sports car fight. The only player not likely to return is Mitsubishi.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'm pretty sure thats about where the old NA Supra started. I don't think Toyota will let themselves get beaten by Nissan. Their 3.5L is a great engine, capable of almost as much power as the old Supra TT. If they bring the Turbos back, 400hp would be within easy reach.
(1) lower cost (it often takes a huge pay raise to get people leave home and ship themselves overseas)
(2) in better touch with local taste.
(3) political acceptance
GM and BMW hire a lot of engineers in places like Brazil, China and South Africa. It would be a stretch of imagination to argue that such hirings are proof that "in terms of automotive engineering" the Americans and Germans "are still not up to Brazilian, Chinese or South African standards."
BMW's success if first and foremost the result of very astute marketting over the past three decades. So has Toyota been. Both had been very focused companies until the most recent years. Both are experts at building brand identity. The real danger for both is becoming somewhat of a miniturized (or not so miniturized) GM of yore . . . trying to be good at everything and becoming expert at nothing.
I disagree with your opinion that engineers are like indistinguishable units of labor whose hiring is based mainly on cost, an awareness of local tastes and political considerations.
Personally I think the CEO of BMW has every right to be scared from Toyota and should do his utmost to keep his engineers well compensated and motivated within BMW.
Very true!
But Toyota and BMW are not only excellent companies because of their marketing?
Toyota and BMW are superlative companies in very different ways. One is an amazing mass producer of high quality standardized cars and the other is an amazing producer of smaller volume premium cars.
Is BMW and Toyota vulnerable? You bet they are.
Are they doomed to end up like GM? Not neccessarily.
I am not going to challenge you on this one since I myself did not test drive the new G35. And no 335i buyer is doomed to have idrive or AS. I chose to avoid those options.
In USA the G35 is a bargain. In Canada the only manual tranny sport packaged G35 is sold as a coupe M6 for $50,600 CDN while a BMW 335i with a sport package is sold for 52,400 CDN $. I do not call that a bargain at all.
So we will just have to wait for that inevitable test. Let's just say I am quite confident on which one will win.
Only time will tell.
That doesn't mean Merc' perception isn't reasonable. It may be exactly how many buyers perceive the LS. That could very well be the word on the street. Maybe not.
That's old news, as I say again, Lexus is nobody's stepchild. They're large and in charge!
The Future is here. And it's pretty cool! Let's Dance!
DrFill
Hey Doc aren't you reading my posts?
The CEO of BMW is shaking in his boots when he thinks of Lexus. He doesnt even think about MB no more.
No, Lexus is nobody's stepchild. We know that. You know that. Everybody in the Lexus forums know that. And German CEOs know that.
Any comments welcome.
LOL.
He doesn't take them for granted, true, but shaking in his boots? I don't think so!
Heck, if you read that recent BusinessWeek article I posted (and I know you did) you know that Lexus visits the BMW facility to see how they do things over there. BMW is a rare standard Lexus looks up to!
Lexus has obviously tried to Bangle their newest models, and have clearly targeted BMW as the ones they would like to beat.
Imagine that! Lexus visiting, looking up to, copying, and following BMW!
TagMan
Lexus is at odds with itself about beating BMW. They say they are gunning for BMW, but then they are not willing to make any compromise on ride quality, which ultimately means their cars will always lose objective and subjective handling tests to BMW. I think what was said before is correct, Lexus doesn't want the BMW hardcore group that buys only MTs with the top engines, and sport packages. They want to chip away at the 325i and 525i, non-sport automatic group.
With all due respect, Dewey, I really don't think so.
I think they are more worried about the usual suspects, and now, Porsche, moving a move into sedans.
$89k seems to be a generous discount given the car that you're about to purchase.
What options does it have? For a sticker at 92k, there may not be many, as MB's option pkgs. are stupifyingly expensive. But hey, there is enough standard equipment to keep even me occupied.
As always, I'll tell you like I'd tell anyone else, scramble for the best deal possible. It never hurts to keep juggling numbers. Dealers do it all the time, but this is your money, so take your time and get to the "absolute bottom line".
You're lucky, as I had to bite the bullet and pay full sum for my S600, but rightfully so since it was a special order. At the end of the day, the total for the special order was $151k, as I added the AMG 20" wheels, tri-Coate pearl paint, paint and leather protection, and Sat.TV pre-wiring.
In short, don't let this one get away. I'm pretty sure Merc would tell you the same thing, right Merc?!
Worried about Lexus? Ooh no. BMW became the largest luxury car manufacturer during the rise of Lexus, in spite of Lexus. If anything, BMW should worry about the quality its own judgment as an independent thinker. Perhaps they should also worry about not worrying. iDrive, active steering, run-flat tires, seat belt feeders, styling, SMG, hydrogen ICE questionable “innovations”.
And as the rising tide of automotive sales has lifted many ships, BMWs impeccable branding has provided the buoyancy. This increases almost exponentially with their aggressive platform diversity in recent years. In addition, xDrive AWD was a booster rocket. BMW ain't got nuthin' bothering them, so it seems.
BTW, here's a recent interview with Adrian van Hooydonk of BMW. It gives a little insight into their design process. I question their creative approach and creative results but it's a worthy read:
An Interview with BMW's Chief Designer
And here's some imagination with the Z2 which may appear in 2010. I actually like the styling much better than the Z4 even though it still has a cartoon countenance. I could see myself tooling around in something like this:
BMW Z2 concept
World's leading luxury car mfg.? You sure you don't want to think about that statement? They build some good performance cars but not helms. There is a difference.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Luxury does include premium performance autos. Therefore BMW is the number one luxury car maker in the world.
I know an elder gentleman who thinks Buicks are the best luxury cars today. I guess you and him have similar definitions of luxury which would include Buicks and rebadged Camrys and Highlanders.
In the luxury car division first place was a tie between the Lexus LS 430, Acura RL, and Audi A8. Hard to argue with that. All fine automobiles. Hats off to the retiring LS for still winning with the older model.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
World's leading luxury car mfg.? You sure you don't want to think about that statement? They build some good performance cars but not helms. There is a difference."
Well here, laugh at these. If I have to rethink the statement maybe these sources have to rethink it also. They all refer to BMW as the largest luxury or premium car manufacturer. I guess they’re imagining things and are wrong according to you. By the way, a HELM is the brand, not the car. And if BMW has only “one true luxury auto” how many do you think Lexus has?
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/may2006/bw20060505_131772.htm
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aKYpWhGEZ3hA&refer=germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW
http://www.germany.info/relaunch/business/new/bus_overview_5_19_2006.html
http://auto.consumerguide.com/articles/index.cfm/act/featuredarticles/article/FA- - - - - - - - _DETROIT_2006.html
I don't see "brands" listed for this helm forum. I see individual cars. Led, of course, by the mighty LS. And yes, I am still laughing.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Bingo and checkmate!
Of course, BMW easily qualifies as a HELM, and I can just bet that the Lexus board has got to be laughing as the HELM board argues whether or not BMW qualifies as a HELM and whether or not BMW is shaking in its boots from the threat of Lexus.
Bottom line reality is clear enough. . .
1. BMW is a HELM
2. No shaking boots.
TagMan
However, after reading the Lexus forums and considering all that has transpired over the years in this thread I’ve come to the conclusion that it is less than a handful of Lexus buyers that are infatuated with sales. The others just focus on the cars, reliability and value as they should. It is those few that try whip the others into a frenzy over sales and the fatuous desire for Lexus to increase prices.
Absolutely, d-man. You're comin' in loud and clear.
The typical Lexus buyer is basically very glad about reliability and the "value" of Lexus' luxury/price ratio.
Just imagine, instead, that the vast majority of Lexus buyers were in a frenzy over sales, freaked out about the Lexus image, and insisted that Lexus raise its prices.
TagMan