High End Luxury Cars

anthonyp

Although I am looking forward to your review of the lexus, and knowing how you feel about the bmw, I really can`t imagine you falling for the M45....Just a different culture.. Tony

blkhemi

That statement actually came from the top man himself(Doc Z) on Detroit Autoline on Speed the other day. I didn't really think that MB was actually going to let anyone pass them on this technology.

dewey

other words, Lexus vehicles aren't "better-handling" than BMWs, they are "better-handling" than previous Lexus vehicles . . . which he further explains makes them something to be aware of.

Good interpretation!

If Lexus will produce a car that can serious handle and perform like a BMW I would be a very happy camper!
I am hoping that my next car will not be a BMW. Not that I dislike BMWs but I do like novelty and change when I buy new cars.

blkhemi

Please tell me that you were just nipping at Tag when you said the A8 will take the BMW's place.

The A8 is still built with the most technology available in it's class. And not just i-Drive.......

lexusguy

The Lexus 450h came in dead last in an absolutely scathing review-nothing good was said about this vehicle.

Yeah the last thing the GS needs is more weight and a lifeless transmission to go along with its lifeless steering. The GS350 with its hydraulic rack is a much smarter choice than the 450h. Its essentially just as fast, with similar mpg.

Next year's Infiniti will be the same as this year's Infiniti. It will be refreshed for the '09 MY, which should mean a change to white gauges, more power for the V6 and possibly a displacement bump for the V8, and an updated interior.

dewey

Based on that Businessweek article I think Munich has not a clue ?

While you sleep, your BMW will scour the Net -- via Wi-Fi and other connections -- collecting, say, 15 minutes of new jazz followed by a 10-minute podcast on the energy industry. It may sound far-fetched, but

Is BMW trying to out-search Google? Are they trying to out-Pod Apple?

BMW appears to be going a bit off tangent. Geographically Munich is not Silicon Valley. Industry-wise BMW is in the auto industry and not in the Silicon Valley industry of high-tech :confuse:

hpowders

You are probably correct, my friend.

I did drive the M45 last year and at that time I was not impressed. The car felt heavy compared to the 545, the engine had a roar to it that would prove annoying over time, the steering felt a little phony and I couldn't find a comfortable fit for my left foot. I also didn't care for the wood-looked too thin-almost see-through. That center stack looked kind of weird too. Also the rear tail lights at night make the vehicle look like a pimp mobile. It's more of a younger person's car-35-45 years old max. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the styling. And the gas mileage is SUV-like.
However, the brakes were terrific-better than the BMW's.
Needless to say, all criticisms of the M45 were absent regarding the 545, a true masterpiece, seriously flawed only by the iDrive.

But the M45 keeps winning the comparos, so I will grudgingly take another look next year.

Looking forward to driving the LS and seeing for myself if any of the criticism I have read are valid. Would like to spend a lot of time with the LS. Perhaps they will let me drive it twice, if it's not too busy, and I tell them I came from far away. (If they read some of my previous posts, they may think that may be a different galaxy!)

May bypass the GS450h. C&D absolutely tore this vehicle apart in its latest issue. Pretty much what I felt about the GS 430. ( but not the GS 300, which I liked. )

hpowders

There has been such a snowballing of criticism regarding the iDrive.
Since sales of the 5 Series have been up big time, BMW doesn't have to listen to the uproar.
If sales slowed down to a crawl, they would listen real well.

dewey

Please tell me that you were just nipping at Tag when you said the A8 will take the BMW's place
The A8 is still built with the most technology available in it's class. And not just i-Drive

I honestly dont know what it will be? Whichever car provides the best "drive" and not neccessarily the best idrive or mmi system?

hpowders

Regarding the GS 450h, C & D couldn't stand the constant clatter as the car noisly switched between gas and electric modes-what C & D refers to as a "sonorous racket"-in addition to the usual suspects-the brakes, the steering, the lack of sportiness. What C & D refers to as "Dismal Dynamics."
Add the practically useless 8 cu ft. trunk to this horrid mix, and I see this vehicle being withdrawn faster than you can say "Accord Hybrid."

This was as bad a review as I have ever seen on a vehicle from an upscale manufacturer.

Let's stop all this hybrid foolishness and bring on the cleaner diesel vehicles to market as quickly as possible.

merc1

While I believe that Lexus has BMW in their sights, I only see them going so far with it. This isn't easy to explain, but a Lexus just isn't built like a BMW. BMW's suspension, steering and penchant for manual gearboxes will see to that. Lexus has proven that they'll only go so far in their quest to compete with BMW with the IS350. The car has a killer engine, but fall flat in the chassis and gearbox areas. Ditto (even worse) for the GS vs. the 5-Series. Now since "sport" isn't as important at the 7-Series level they can make more progress against BMW there. If this IS500 does come to be a reality, I highly doubt it will have a stick shift to compete with the next M3 and the RS4, it will be more a C63 AMG competitor than anything else. Lexus can chase BMW in flair and styling and what not, but those core values that make BMW drivers put up with idrive and sometimes wierd styling are safe from Lexus, IMO.

Lexus simply put just isn't going to build a machine as hardcore as Sport packaged, manual tranny BMW. Also, I really don't seem them making something like an M3 or M5 when it comes to track work. Lexus' reason for being is Mercedes-Benz and it will stay that way IMO. BMW is a different thing all together and they've proven so far that they aren't really serious about tackling BMW.

What Lexus will do however is pull some BMW intenders or wannabes, not their traditional fan base, unless they make some fairly radical changes to what they think a peformance car should be. This would shop Infiniti (G35s specifically) before Lexus. Guys like Habitat, Blueguydotcom and others on the ELLPS board. You should check out that board, they're a lively group. Ask Habitat who steered him in the right direction concerning his 911.

M

merc1

read in Autoweek that Audi, VW and BMW agreed to use MB's Blutec system in order to accomplish selling cars that can pass tough emissions standards like that in California.

Isn't this grand! The more things change the mroe they stay the same, Mercedes-Benz showing the way!!!

M

lexusguy

Let's stop all this hybrid foolishness and bring on the cleaner diesel vehicles to market as quickly as possible.

I agree, this is just another nail in the coffin for the whole "performance hybrid" idea. The 450h managed just 20mpg, 3 better than the big German 8s. I think trunk space, handling, and a proper transmission are worth the extra few dollars at the pump. The electric motors and batteries add more than 400lbs of weight and a $10K price hike to the GS350, for just 37 extra horses, no increase in fuel economy, and no significant increase in performance. Not to even mention that the steering, brakes, transmission and handling are ruined in the process. That's a terrible deal, any way you slice it.

C&D's harsh review was completely deserved. The car makes no sense.

maxhonda99

"That's why even though the LS review from C&D has been especially disappointing,..."

Disappoiting? Are you sure you read the article at all? It seems you basically took 2 negatives and spin it round and round to try and make it as if C&D wrote the LS460 is a disappointing product. Considering the ending summary basically says "with new levels of luxury and attention to detail and a more robust lineup, the LS seems poised to stay on top.". That is hardly a *disappointing* review.

Leave it to the spin doctors to manufacture reviews!

hpowders

Disappointing in the sense that the braking was 30 feet worse in the new LS than they found in the old LS 430. The word they used to describe the LS 460 brakes was "pitiful."
Disappointing in the sense that a 0-60 mph time of 6.0 seconds is unacceptable for a sedan with a big V-8.

Powerful braking and quick acceleration are important to me, and they should be a given for anyone spending in excess of 60 large.

tagman

While I believe that Lexus has BMW in their sights, I only see them going so far with it. This isn't easy to explain, but a Lexus just isn't built like a BMW.

No explanation is necessary. I understand. Of course, BMW has its own unique, and special, build-quality and performance attributes.

It's been a while now since I first brought attention to the reality of Lexus placing BMW in their crosshairs. There has definately been a greater acceptance of this now on this board, but there is a need for clarity.

You might as well get used to the fact that Lexus will continue to strive to compete with BMW, as well as Mercedes, of course. While Audi and others are in the arena, I do not believe that Lexus has directly targeted them as they have Mercedes and now more recently BMW.

Lexus is certainly not BMW, and with regards to all my posts about this topic, I think this needs to be clarified. I have never said, nor am I saying that Lexus is equivalent to BMW in any way. Lexus has their own credits, and they are different than BMW's.

While I maintain that Lexus is not equivalent to BMW, I do think they could close the gap, over time. And, Lexus will take some increased market share from those buyers that are not as brand loyal, and from those that do not fully appreciate the special nature of BMW vehicles.

Additionally, Lexus will market itself to be more of a performance vehicle than it really is. We already see these types of commercials with racing Lexus vehicles and slogans like "you can't lose". There should be no doubt that people will be swayed. I am concerned about some of these commercials, as I find them on the border of misrepresentation. The slogan "you can't lose" is very clever, and almost misleading, IMO.

None of this makes a Lexus as good as a BMW, IMO. It just means that Lexus can improve the performance of their vehicles enough to satisfy a segment of the market and increase their share.

The future concern is that Lexus could decide to invest in greater performance, especially if they see themselves making serious inroads into BMW territory. Also, there is the risk, but unknown yet, that BMW will take their latest technology direction too far down another iDrive-type path, and frustrate too many purists with overly complicated technology.

I never underestimate Lexus, and try not to overestimate them either. For BMW, Mercedes, and others, it would be foolish to ever turn their back on Lexus, however. It would also be foolish to let Lexus overly distract or derail them (BMW, Mercedes, etc.) from their own directions.

Overall, I have very strong faith and confidence in BMW, and I was glad to read that Reithofer keeps a concerned eye on Lexus, as he should, but mostly has his eye on the future of BMW, where it truly belongs. Let's just hope his vision of BMW's future is 20/20.

TagMan

scottphillip

So far, I am loving the Audi. It rides a little stiffly, but not for a performance car. Also, the V10 is quieter than I expected. It lacks the rumble of the AMG cars. I posted photos of the Audi in Car Space.

designman

Nice, enjoy! I like the water sleds in the background too ;-)

petrie3

That's interesting since I understand the Bluetec isn't yet available in CA since it hasn't met CA emissions standards! :confuse: (this is according to the mbusa.com website).

dewey

They should arrive in California . Although timing is not yet definite. At least dont expect any within a year.

dewey

OK Tagman your posts are getting far too hard to disagree with.

Cant really argue with any of your points.

dewey

The more things change the mroe they stay the same, Mercedes-Benz showing the way!!!

Ok, Merc dont let it get to your head.

Remember there is also a company called Honda that has solved the bladder problems that MB is currently afflicted with

tagman

OK Tagman your posts are getting far too hard to disagree with.

Cant really argue with any of your points.

There's always the "other" board, if you're looking for trouble. (Of course, I'm just kidding, but someone could think otherwise, as you know.)

BTW, blkhemi did respond to my question about whether or not BlueTec was recently improved enough to eliminate the need for the urea additive (in the 5 most restrictive states, including California, where I reside).

I believe he indicated that he heard it on a car show on the Speed channel, and inferred that Doc Z (Dieter Zetsche) himself provided the information.

I have been trying tried hard to corroborate that, but so far I can not find anything whatsoever to support that.

I hope it is true. If you come across something that can verify the accuracy of that information, that would be cool, as I know you are also interested in this.

Otherwise, as you indicated, Honda will have the edge, while MB will be stuck with "bladder problems".

TagMan

ivan_99

While I maintain that Lexus is not equivalent to BMW, I do think they could close the gap, over time. And, Lexus will take some increased market share from those buyers that are not as brand loyal, and from those that do not fully appreciate the special nature of BMW vehicles.

I see the inverse happening.

With new technologies such as adaptive suspension, new tire compounds, variable rim sizes etc, I see BMW taking sales away from Lexus (eventually).

If you can have a BMW hand like BMW's do, but at slow speeds (or when the desired) have a soft mushy luxury ride...why not choose it over the Lexus

Once you have developed a solid vehicle that handles superbly...I see it being an “easier” task to make it luxurious than making a mushy car sporty.

The only problem with this theory is it assumes that the “mushy” people care at all about the sporty side.

houdini1

I don't believe Lexus is targeting BMW any more than BMW is targeting Lexus. BMW is not even a blip on the Lexus/Toyota radar screen when it comes to sales of cars.

The name of the game is INCOME for the manufacturers and their stockholders. Why would Lexus/Toyota want to be like BMW and sell fewer cars? On the other hand I can well see why BMW would want to be as successful as Lexus/Toyota.

hpowders

I agree. BMW will be surging ahead while Lexus, as I see it, has already begun its sad decline.

Let's look at the obvious:

The GS 450h is an absolute disaster. It got one of the worst write-ups I have ever seen in Car & Driver.

With the new LS, Lexus has managed to "evolve" this vehicle backward. Compared to the outgoing LS 430, it takes the new LS 460 thirty more feet (!!) to stop the car from 70 mph, according to Car & Driver-a performance they referred to as "pitiful."
Why, Lexus can't even get its act together on providing accurate acceleration data, as the 2 numbers provided by Lexus to the aforementioned magazine were both "faster" by more than 0.5 seconds! Pretty embarrassing stuff.

I ask, where's the rebuttal from Lexus?

Not to worry, BMW 7 Series, Mercedes Benz S-Class, or Audi A 8.

Meanwhile BMW keeps rolling along with new world class vehicles that do the company proud, like the exciting 335i coupe and will soon unveil an incredibly beautiful Hanes Brief-twisting dynamic 5 Series sedan.

I have never seen a BMW review in any reputable auto magazine where the BMW company had to be embarrassed by providing off the wall data as Lexus recently was.

Yes, If I were a BMW board member or stock holder, I would be having very pleasant dreams.

If I were a Toyota Motors stock holder or board member, I would be going to Walmart and stocking up on that $4 generic Ambien.

blkhemi

"BMW is not even a blip on the Lexus/Toyota radar screen when it comes to sales of cars."

Surely you're talking total company sales, as the 3-Series currently outsells the IS 5-1, and the 5-Series compared to the GS, well it's really not even a comparison in sales...

"The name of the game is INCOME for the manufacturers and their stockholders. Why would Lexus/Toyota want to be like BMW and sell fewer cars? On the other hand I can well see why BMW would want to be as successful as Lexus/Toyota."

I bit more than bragging, uh? BMW is one of the most profitable companies(behind Porsche), period, in any industry. This company is the envy of just about any company. What company you know makes styling blunders such as Bangle and infuse their cars with so much technology that an MIT grad will need to go back to finish a course just to learn the basics, yet still has the best y-o-y returns in it's class. NOBODY.

If Toyota does anything remotely close to this, everyone on this board would be driving an MB, BMW, or Audi as Lexus would be non-existant. And they know this as witnessed by there restraint and carefulness in their designs.

If status-quo is what you think BMW is wanting, then you're definetely barking up the wrong tree. But if you think that with the next 7-Series comes a new 750 with a new 4.6L. V8 hooked to 8-speed tranny only to hope to hang with it's competitors, then you may be on to something. Highly unlikely..

lexusguy

With new technologies such as adaptive suspension, new tire compounds, variable rim sizes etc, I see BMW taking sales away from Lexus (eventually).

I doubt that. Lexus' core strengths are the RX and ES. BMW will not do cars like that. They would take down the entire brand if they did. Also, ride quality is not the sole reason people buy Lexus over another brand. BMW may eventually catch Lexus when it comes to reliability and service. However, as long as they keep "improving" their cars with things like iDrive, I don't see them swaying too many Lexus shoppers. At least not ES, RX, and LS shoppers.

hpowders

As long as a lot of folks continue to purchase and lease BMW vehicles that have the iDrive, BMW will unfortunately, continue to provide it.

houdini1

Overall, Lexus has been the top selling luxury brand in the U.S. for about 7 years running. That is the Holy Grail and you can spin all you want but Lexus has it.

drfill

When looking for "off the wall", HP, just read you posts!

I agree. BMW will be surging ahead while Lexus, as I see it, has already begun its sad decline.

With the new LS, Lexus has managed to "evolve" this vehicle backward. Compared to the outgoing LS 430, it takes the new LS 460 thirty more feet (!!) to stop the car from 70 mph, according to Car & Driver-a performance they referred to as "pitiful."
Why, Lexus can't even get its act together on providing accurate acceleration data, as the 2 numbers provided by Lexus to the aforementioned magazine were both "faster" by more than 0.5 seconds! Pretty embarrassing stuff.

I ask, where's the rebuttal from Lexus?

Not to worry, BMW 7 Series, Mercedes Benz S-Class, or Audi A 8.

Too many points, so little time!

As has been explained hundreds of times, accelerations times vary WILDLY, from venue to venue, tire to tire, one climate or elevation to another. I've seen an LS430 tested at 5.9, and I'm sure Lexus would know if the new car was slower than the old car. The seem pretty confident, and forgive me if I'm more confident in their assessment than yours.

You mention the Germans as some type of Final Solution to the Lexus Situation.

You forgot that the raggedy old LS430 already beat these cars, rather handily in a 2005 C&D comparison.

Look at it this way, the LS430, on an off day, is as good a car as any German ubersedan, mostly because it's smart enough not to p--- off it's owner, someone the Germans don't seem to care about.

If you see evidence of a "sad decline", and that's your argument, than please tell me what Lincoln is in?

Lexus' main problem is they are getting to popular to fast! And the better they get, the more they sell! Where does it end? How many sales records do they intend to break anyway?

Audi never really got high enough to "decline", did they? Think they wish they has Lexus' problems?

BMW does build World Class vehicles, but if you can't see that Lexus does as well, that says a lot.

I have no problem complimenting Mercedes or BMW. They are rather incredible marques.

You like to lump Auid's A8 in with them, but I haven't seen a wave of agreement here, or in the press.

But...... there's a new Sheriff in town..... :shades:

DrFill

dewey

BTW, blkhemi did respond to my question about whether or not BlueTec was recently improved enough to eliminate the need for the urea additive (in the 5 most restrictive states, including California, where I reside).

I dont know what Dr. Z speech Blkhemi is referring to but it appears the urea bladder is MB's 50 State solution. The EPA had issues with the bladder but now it appears that they have become more leanient and will accept it. Here is a blurb from a current Fortune Magazine:

To pass the strictest air-quality rules, part two of Mercedes' plan involves adding a small tank of urea, an ammonia-like fluid that further neutralizes pollution. The EPA's Oge says that while the agency has been leery of emissions systems that require maintenance, it will back Mercedes' approach.

SOURCE:Fortune

The Honda solution appears superior than the Blutec solution since they will be able to pass the emissions requirement for every State without a urea bladder:

Honda - a company long associated with hybrids - announced a catalytic-converter breakthrough that requires no fluid additives, saying it will deliver 50-state models by 2009.

hpowders

How did Lincoln get into this discussion?

Anyhow, on the decline of Lincoln, we can both agree.
I pray when I get picked up to go to the airport that it will not be one of those dreadfully ostentatious, seedy, stretched to the max Lincolns with 12 bottles of booze staring me in the face at 5AM! But sure enough, it always is!

I hope you are correct in your analysis, and I look forward to reading what some of the other big auto mags say about the braking and acceleration of the new LS. Wish they would hurry up.

Even though I am a BMW man at heart, I want the new LS to succeed since it will force the others to improve and we all benefit. Hence, my frustration concerning the C&D findings.

Let's go, Mets!!!

merc1

Excellent post!

This part:

While I maintain that Lexus is not equivalent to BMW, I do think they could close the gap, over time. And, Lexus will take some increased market share from those buyers that are not as brand loyal, and from those that do not fully appreciate the special nature of BMW vehicles.

Is what I meant by Lexus taking the BMW pretenders or wannabes. Lexus will take some from this group for sure, no doubt so I think we're on the same page here as we are most of the time. Heck even I like the IS350, but would I take it over a 335i? Nope.

I never underestimate Lexus, and try not to overestimate them either. For BMW, Mercedes, and others, it would be foolish to ever turn their back on Lexus, however. It would also be foolish to let Lexus overly distract or derail them (BMW, Mercedes, etc.) from their own directions.

I agree totally, and I think BMW and Mercedes have learned enough in the U.S. market not to blow Lexus off in Europe. Once Lexus gets some serious diesels and creates more European friendly designs they'll gain market share in Europe too, no doubt.

M

dewey

pray when I get picked up to go to the airport that it will not be one of those dreadfully ostentatious, seedy, stretched to the max Lincolns with 12 bottles of booze staring me in the face at 5AM! But sure enough, it always is!

Your lucky! Everytime I get picked up to go to the Airport I end up in the very same non-stretched rusty 1991 Crown Victoria Limousine with a bar that would make any AA member proud.

dewey

Is what I meant by Lexus taking the BMW pretenders or wannabes. Lexus will take some from this group for sure, no doubt so I think we're on the same page here as we are most of the time. Heck even I like the IS350, but would I take it over a 335i? Nope.

In fact I acutally chose a 335i over a IS350.

But I think it is a bit harsh to call Lexus IS drivers BMW wannabes and pretenders. They just have different priorities. A person who wants a fast car like the IS without the harsh ride of a sport packaged 335i is not neccessarily a BMW wannabe. In fact he is more likely to be someone who defines sport/luxury/ride/quality very differently from a enthusiast BMW buyer. MB C Class and Lexus IS drivers have a lot in common to each others. Just as BMW 3 drivers and Infiniti G drivers have a lot in common with each others. Calling a IS driver a BMW 3 wannabe is like calling a BMW 3 driver a MB C Class wannabe. That as you know is not the case at all.

tagman

The only problem with this theory is it assumes that the “mushy” people care at all about the sporty side.

It's a good perspective that has merit, and I like it. But another problem that makes it all difficult is that Lexus so often is the one with the "value" card, as well as being super-reliable. People have made this a big deal . . . too big a deal, IMO.

TagMan

merc1

Nice!!!

M

merc1

Yeah I'm curious to see what Honda has done, but it will likely be a 4-cylinder they're talking about, not a V6??

M

merc1

Well I wasn't calling them wannabes as in they want a BMW, only that they want a sporty car, but aren't ready for a BMW (i.e. a true sporting, or sportier experience).

M

dewey

Fair enough!

That will be my very last defense for Lexus tonight.

tagman

Your latest information regarding the BlueTec's use of the urea additive to be compliant in all 50 states is, therefore, the same as mine. It would seem that there is no corroboration of blkhemi's interpretation of the program with Doctor Z at this point in time.

I've gotta give huge kudos to Honda for their innovation here, in providing a 50-state diesel without the need for additives.

Mercedes should consider paying Honda to use its catalyst technology. But, of course, that won't happen.

TagMan

dewey

A diesel Acura TL V6 SH-AWD would be a very interesting car!

dewey

Below a certain price level I tend to always favor Hondas
Above a certain price level I tend to always favor BMWs.
I guess I like car companies with a motorcycle tradition(although that does not explain my dislike for Suzuki cars)

merc1

A diesel Acura TL V6 SH-AWD would be a very interesting car!

Yes it would. The question then would be, what is the point of the RL? I think many buyers ask that question already, if they haven't they will for 07 with the TL-S sitting on the same showroom floor.

M

tagman

although that does not explain my dislike for Suzuki cars

The reason for your dislike for Suzuki cars is . . . Suzuki cars.

TagMan

dewey

Based on the latest survey from Strategic Vision Inc. BMW ranks as the number one brand in the industry in terms of customer satisfaction.

San Diego-based Strategic Vision surveyed more than 64,000 people who purchased new vehicles from October 2005 to March 2006. Participants were questioned after 90 days of ownership. The study, separate from Strategic Vision's quality survey, tries to capture whether consumers believe they got their money's worth and factors in emotional components.

Overall, BMW AG outperformed all companies, including Honda, but because it sells only luxury vehicles and the Mini sports coupe and convertible, it is not considered a full-line automaker.

As mentioned above the survey focuses on how satisfied a customer is with his/her car and not on how many problems arose with his/her car.

So it appears reliability issues may not affect the satisfaction of car ownership as much as what you would think--- escpecially after reading CR auto surveys. In other words the reliability issues faced by BMW owners are so insignificant that they do not at all affect BMW's highest ranking in terms of ownwer satisfaction .While the stellar non-existent reliability issues faced by Lexus owners does not increase the satisfaction of owning a Lexus as much as you would think it would.

Interestingly Toyota's satisfaction survery rankings are declining relative to Hyundai rankings.

BOTTOM LINE: There is more to owning a car than just reliability.

SOURCE: FORBES

lexusguy

I guess I like car companies with a motorcycle tradition(although that does not explain my dislike for Suzuki cars)

Well, Suzuki cars are awful. I don't think anyone likes them, not even owners. Half of them are actually Daewoos anyway. Suzuki would be better off just staying the motorcycle game with Kawasaki and Yamaha. Kawasaki actually has a faster bike than the Turbo Busa, they can't let that stand.

houdini1

BMW did not win anything because they are not a full line manufacturer. They had some high scores, thanks primarily to the MINI, which has a legendary cult following.

The ACTUAL WINNERS.....Honda first, Toyota second. Nice spin though.

tagman

Based on the latest survey from Strategic Vision Inc. BMW ranks as the number one brand in the industry in terms of customer satisfaction.

Are you aware of any JD Power survey that is similar to the Strategic Vision survey?

TagMan