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Comments
550i $58,500. auto tran is an option. LS $61,000
750i $71,800
750Li $75,800
LS $61,000
LS/lwb $71,000
E550 MSRP $59,775. LS $61,000
S550 $86,175.
Will MB use the V8 from the GL450 for a possible S450?
blkcadillac - the problem witth your reasoning is you won't find a $61K SWB car or a $71L LWB car. Those are prices that are set for marketing purposes of stripped cars that they never make.
Bottom line is the prices are up 10% (55K to 61K for those unavailable cars) but you get a lot more car with extra features for that 10% price increase. Great strategy as they cover a much greater bandwidth of buyers than does MB and for all intent and purposes a comparably equipped LWB LS car is now at price parity, maybe even higher than a 7-series. I know the S450 is out there but I'll bet that cannibalizes S550 or even high end E sales rather than hurts LS aales.
TagMan
To some extent true, but generally if the buyer is comfortable with the S550 price, he's going to get the S550. Therefore the high end E might lose out a bit, but truly there will some LS460L (remember, lj, we're talking long wheelbase here) sales that would be lost to an S450, assuming it would be priced in the sweet spot, as well as the upcoming BlueTec S-Class, assuming also that the price is in the sweet spot.
It's the same market share perspective that we talked about earlier, but we don't want to get too deep into a discussion about. My main point is, with the right product at the right price (which is the S450 and possibly the diesel variant) the loss of sales is a two-way street. Even the mighty LS460L can lose sales to Mercedes Benz, and it will.
Of course, I have little doubt that the LS460 & LS460L will do very well with these announced prices.
I would be interested in an LS460L price, configured to match an S550, comparibly equipped as close as possible, to see just what the real-life difference would be.
I think it is more likely that an upcoming S450 would be perceived as a "value" for the S-Class, and would be a true competitor to the LS460L, and not just a cannibal within the ranks of MB.
len - would you PLEASE have this discussion with me on the HELM forum, as I am balancing on the fence here in this LS forum when it comes to appropriate comparison discussions. It's difficult, and while I genuinely want to have a discussion with you, I also know that it should be in the appropriate forum, out of respect for all the other posters and the hosts, as well. That's fair, isn't it?
TagMan
Wouldn't you think an S450 is restrained by prices of the old S430. If they price it too low they hurt the residuals of S430's in the future.
Re the LS460L - sure I see the market share issue and I wouldn't for a second say a low priced S450 wouldn't attract an LS460L buyer. But my feeling is MB would have to walk a fine line here and I think in the end the greater risk is canabilization. I think the possibility is also greater that it takes away a would be LS customer much more so than an existing customer. Remember the LS460L is set up more to start to take away share from LWB German buyers than it is for existing LS buyers. So I think an aggressive price move by MB on the S450 is defensive rather than offensive.
Wouldn't you think an S450 is restrained by prices of the old S430. If they price it too low they hurt the residuals of S430's in the future.
Only with regards to lease residuals perhaps, but otherwise I see no legitimate restraint. Looking forward is the direction that MB really needs to stay focused upon, and I see them having taken good leadership position, with the timely introduction of the new S-Class, which I still see as the benchmark, although it will have a tougher competitor than ever before.
It would be in MB's future interest to price an S450 in the sweet spot, without an over-concern for the older S models, IMO. This is not to infer that I think it should be too cheap, because I wouldn't want that perception to ever accompany Mercedes. With all respect, leave that to Lexus.
But "value" (which doesn't mean "cheap") can be perceived even for a Mercedes, and that is what I would hope for with an upcoming S450.
TagMan
My complaint about diesels with low sulphur fuel was based on the following assertion by Green Car Congress:
Improperly fueling a 2007 or later model with low sulphur diesel can damage the emissions system
link title
Unfortunately in my case I misunderstood their low sulphur terminology. In fact low sulphur diesel is high sulphur diesel when compared to ultra low sulphur diesel. New 2007 engines are designed for ultra low sulphur diesels and not for low sulphur diesels.
In other words I am wrong.
Very interesting. I would doubt that the rest of us have used the "ultra" word either, when speaking of the newer ultra-low sulphur diesel fuel.
But, an interesting discussion, nonetheless. And, certainly with any new components that might be a part of these new "ultra-low" sulphur diesel burners, however simple or complex, there is at least some reasonable concern for failure, although I think minimum concern.
Also, your posts have made some of us more aware of the correct terminology when discussing low or ultra-low sulphur diesel fuel in the future. I find that very helpful.
Take care,
TagMan
Otherwise I would of ended up in a hybrid vs. diesel forum preaching erroneously the vices of diesels and the virtues of hybrids .
A Lexus dealer apparently dribbled out some idea of how LS460 and LS460L will come in, and what a well-equipped model would sell for, with prices of incoming cars with certail packages. But it looks like it'll be at least another 10 days before we have detailed equipment information.
But I'll dig for some, and let you know!
One thing I have learned is a fully-loaded LS460L may surpass $90k! :shades:
And a hearty congrats to the NEW YORK YANKEES! WAY TO GO, GUYS!
The $200,000,000 dog now sleeps, in the East River, with the fishes. Rest in peace, Yankees. R.I.P. :sick:
How are my Mets doing again?
DrFill
DrFill
Otherwise I would of ended up in a hybrid vs. diesel forum preaching erroneously the vices of diesels and the virtues of hybrids .
Yeah, we sure wouldn't want that. I have to admit that I remember being foolish enough to go there one time all juiced up on hybrid kool-aid . . . not a pretty picture . . . But, not to worry . . . I'll do everything I can to keep you from going down that mistaken path. (and I'm confident blkhemi would help out if needed.)
TagMan
"As a contender in the big luxury sedan category, the LS 460 is uninspired and laden with pointless, whiz-bang gizmos that left us wondering if the folks at Lexus are out of touch."
"In terms of styling, the new LS is unlikely to attract new buyers and especially any converts from formidable prestige brands such as Mercedes-Benz or BMW."
"According to Lexus Vice President of Marketing Deborah Meyer, 'Our basic philosophy is to build vehicles our customers want.'
Well, apparently the Lexus customer has spoken and what it wants for 2007 is help with parallel parking."
"As far as most people are concerned, nothing screams "old man car" more than a big, overblown sedan with a parallel parking system. Our prediction is that the 2007 Lexus LS 460 will be huge in Florida."
This from "Car and Driver":
"60 mph arrives from rest in 6.0 seconds...more than a half-second slower than what Lexus claims, not to mention what the Mercedes S550 and BMW 750i achieve."
"Start pushing and the all-season tires howl persistently as it leans through turns."
"We measured a pitiful 209 feet in stopping distance from 70 mph, 30 feet longer than an LS 430."
I don't think Mercedes Benz has much to worry about.
Sleeping medicine prescriptions will no longer be required for BMW execs
You know Doc you are the only person I know who gets excited about price inflation.
If I read that BMW or Audi prices will be substantially higher I can assure you I would not use the :shades: icon. Instead I would use this icon
Lexus will have no choice but to apply their usual WalMart pricing when compared to Benzes or BMWs. Otherwise they may end up having many uninspiring autos that have a lot of pointless whizbang gizmos sitting on their lots collecting cobwebs.
Apparently all the prior euphoria about the LS in various forums is beginning to look like a joke. Coincidentally the same euphoria was witnessed with the lacklustre GS and the stickless VDIM IS non-sport sedan.
LOL!
The great appeal of the LS was as an entry-level HELM at a great price.
Once that price approaches S-Class territory, more buyers will be considering the S-Class, as well they should.
The reviews of the S-Class have been ecstatic. Quite the contrary regarding the new LS.
I will be driving the LS460 next month. My expectations are not high.
If you still want a $65k Lexus LS, you can get one, and have the best car in that price range.
And if you want more, you get more. I don't look at it as a price increase, but a coming of age. It puts pressure of everybody else. This vehicle is a quantum leap better than one of the best luxury cars ever built!
More HELM customers will put the LS on there test drive lists, and may not see a raw performer like the 750i, but will have the chance to see virtues that will compell them to buy a Lexus.
The package is compelling, if not enthralling. Loads more power, more room, more features, more options, and it's good-looking! It's more tasteful than the 750 and S550, after having seen them all in person. It walks the line very well. More attractive, without trying to hard to be attractive, or different. Mercedes wasn't as successful.
Those DESPERATE for a fly in the ointment will call for a engine with more displacment, and I'm sure Lexus will offer a 5.0 V8 for 2010 with more low-end in their mid-gen update.
I would like Lexus to raise prices, to sell less vehicles, and replace market dominance with more prestige and exclusivity. They may be at the point where they can charge more than the competition because the market will pay a premium for a Lexus. Imagine if they sold the endless versions of their vehicles like Benz does?
When the S-Class and LS have been compared previously, the reviews for the LS have been rather "estatic". I'm prepared for more "ecstacy"!
Regarding the GS, it sells with the M35/45, the critically acclaimed best-in-class, just fine. As I've said before, it's not my personal favorite, but it is not the dud you're trying to portray.
And the IS is doing bang-up business, and is in very short supply. They fixed the VDIM issue, and I'm hopeful a Manual is in development for it, and for a future 350HP Toyota Supra! :shades:
Sounds like you're Sleepless in Seattle, but Torrence, CA is awfully sunny these days!
The future's so bright, I gotta wear :shades:
DrFill
Reviews of the S-Class have been overwhelmingly positive.
Reviews of the LS 460 that have concentrated on the car and not the company, have been "polite" to negative.
If anything, given the representative reviews I posted above, it seems that Lexus has fallen even further behind the great German automakers.
Car and Driver, for example, found the stopping power better for the LS 430 than the LS 460. Lexus apparently is going backward!
Why, the higher-ups at BMW, Audi and MB must be LOL big time at a company that puts out a HELM vehicle whose greatest attribute seems to be that it can park itself.
And this they keep "top-secret" until the last minute?
Yes. I do indeed see the future in the HELM realm and it belongs to Audi, BMW and Mercedes Benz. :surprise:
I would be aggressively selling my Toyota stock at this time, not only because of what I have written here, but also because of the real, imminent threat of Hyundai.
Anyone lucky enough to be holding TM since January 2003 has made good money, but the winds, they are a-changin'.
With Porsche engineering help, will Audi, already pretty respectable, finally surpass BMW as the sedan performance leader? I think that's a real possibility!
Report says alliance would jettison Lamborghini and Bugatti, because they're competitors of Porsche. Who would be interested in them, Honda? What'd VAG do with Veyron, after spending tons of money on the world's fastest car?
By the way, I’m surprised no one has brought up the LS460 review in the October Car mag. It is very consistent with the majority performance-biased reviews, that is, that the LS strong points are quality and reliability, applauding the impeccable build process, and that it will appeal to American-luxury tastes. It slams it on driving qualities and styling. It is clear the reviewer prefers typical Euro qualities and gives thumbs up to the S550.
But of course, keeping hitting the tennis ball back and forth over the net. I suppose we all could use the exercise.
;-)
Is it just a coincidence that the rear of the new LS smacks of Bangle BMW influence?
The German vs Lexus debate will continue because Lexus put it into play.
In fact the only handling-oriented marketing comment I recall from Lexus management was a claim along the lines that the new LS would be "the best handling LS ever." They never claimed it would be "the best handling Lexus" or the "best handling in its class".
They are targeting BMW.
So long as Lexus contributes in words or design that it is targeting BMW, the German vs Lexus debate is valid and will continue.
YES . . . This is already widely acknowledged. Clearly Lexus adopted some of the trendy Bangle rear design in the new LS.
And, of course, upon doing so, it increasingly validates BMW as a competitive target . . . from a style standpoint.
Performance targeting of BMW has been primarily delegated to the IS model at this point.
Combined, it proves what I've said for some time now . . . Lexus has clearly gone beyond Mercedes and has now included BMW as well, as a targeted competitor.
This is all pretty obvious at this point.
TagMan
What is also clear is the rear end is better than both of the Germans.
I didn't know a copy could be better than the original? :confuse:
DrFill
According to who? Where does it consistently say in the reviews or anywhere for that matter that the LS460 styling is better than the S-Class?
It is consistently indicated that it is an improvement from the last LS430, which it is, thank goodness.
So, what are you talking about here?
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yes this could be a potential threat to BMW. It also could be a serious cannibalization threat to Audis if comparable Porsche sedans are more potent and exciting than Audi sedans. What will be the point of sporty stiff handling Porsche sedans when there already are Audi S/RS sedans?
I read the new entry level Porsche Panamera will have a VW engine. It would not surprise me that a closer Porsche-VW relationship will give birth to Porsche sedans that iare based on a Audi platforms.
Well then, a nice 8-speed luxurious Lazy-Boy recliner on wheels will do just fine. And I'll bet you will be the first to place your deposit! :P
Personally, I am quite certain that performance is one inherent component of a HELM . . . and there ARE models here that have superior attributes in that arena.
TagMan
TagMan
Thanks for the well wishes! Yes that is the house.
M
How's that for diplomacy ? Now if only I could be this diplomatic about soft riding luxury cars
M
the answer to you lack of interest is very obvious.
After painfully trying to make a choice these past years between a MB CLK and a Lexus SC Coupe you finally made your decision. It was a very close call but at least you made your decision and it was a great surprise to all of us in this forum that you chose a Mercedes instead :surprise:
So now after your decision these Lexus vs. MB arguments have little relevance to you
That the LS is better-looking than the 750 or S550.
That's all. :surprise:
Better-bangled than the 7. Not so Humpty as the S. Better taillights, and exhaust. Clear superiority.
IMHO, of course. Don't need a mag to tell me which car looks good.
I can handle that. I'm cool like that!
DrFill
[well they all ready do luxury pretty good IMO] Anywho, let's all keep our heads.
Welcome back any past HELM posters. Let's discuss all HELMS. and stay away from sweeping statements
;-)
By "auto tran", if I decipher your abbreviations correctly, you are referring to the 6 speed steptronic transmission, by stating it is an option is misleading in that every 550i transmission can be ordered at no extra charge: the 6 speed manual, the 6 speed SMG and the steptronic. All the same: no extra charge.
Comparing the 550i at $58,500 to the LS at $61,000, I would have to say the LS is quite over-priced.
IYO of course. The LS460 while much better looking than the LS430 still doesn't have the S-Class' flair and when the S is wearing AMG trim the LS460 looks like a throwback. The shape is so unimaginative. It is too slab sided and carry too many Camry cues to be better looking than a S or A8. Now the 7-Series.....
M
M
M
As hard as it is to get into this comp thing again, I realize that the LS460 is new enough to deserve some discussion and to be put into a proper and realistic perspective.
While I make every effort to be as moderate and respectful about Lexus as possible, there is a disconnection to the truth in your earlier post.
To the typical Lexus "brand buyer", your remarks are exactly as you perceive the situation. But I've gotta tell ya . . . If you step back a notch, it becomes clear that the S-Class in particular had some of the best reviews imagineable . . . consistently I might add . . . and it has already established itself as the benchmark.
The possibility for the LS460(L) to come along and topple the S-Class was very real, but unfortunately for Lexus, it just has not happened.
Now, this next model year will be big for Lexus and the LS460. This is completely predictable, and when you start quoting sales figures, they will be initially skewed, as ljflx has also pointed out.
Comparing the cars themselves, regardless of sales data for the moment, the performance of the Lexus is without any doubt worse than the S-Class. The styling is always subjective, and while the new LS seems to be regarded as an improvement, and I also believe it is an improvement, it is not the level of styling found in the S-Class, IMO.
The whiz-bang technology may have backfired on Lexus, because in reality, the self-park feature is so restricted to more than ideal conditions, that those conditions hardly exist in the real world. Where do you find an open parking spot that is so huge that you could park a delivery truck, and yet at the same time need help getting into it? It's turned out to be laughable, and the reviewers have caught on to this for what it really is . . . a gimmick. It may have been a good idea initially, but the final feature has turned out to have way too many restricitons and limitations to be very useful. Any gradient, for example, is also a no-no.
The price will definately be high for the long wheelbase loaded version, and I can see the justification for consumers with an open mind, to snatch up an S-Class and enjoy the real-world benefits it offers.
So far the S-Class is the acknowledged benchmark. True performance, a purposeful 7-speed tranny (not built as a market ploy to achieve the magic number 8), solid brakes, superior styling (IMO), purposeful features as opposed to gimicktry, and dare I mention the Mercedes prestige.
I believe that there will be a substantial number of neutral consumers that will discover this truth, and not be swayed by marketing or gimmicks, but by the genuine realities of these vehicles.
As I have said, and you know this to be true, the Lexus LS460 is a terrific car, and deserves recognition for its achievements. But when we are talking about comparing it to an S-Class vehicle . . . well . . . at that point, the truth just is what it is.
Hmmm, let's see now . . . similar price . . . LS460L or S-Class?
S-Class, please! :shades:
TagMan
It's as if all it can provide you invalidate as some type of smoke-and-mirrors, "Magic Elixir" hustling, traveling scam show! :confuse:
Lexus quotes a 5.4 time, 0-60, and 19/27 EPA. These are both as good, or better than the S550. From an engine almost 20% smaller. And still acts like a Lexus under all conditions, or maybe just a little better? :surprise:
If you can refute these numbers as inaccurate, let me know. "First Drives" and such have always been informal, and nothing to bet the farm on. I can site many instances when a car had a rather poor "First Drive" or test, or the numbers didn't come out right, and then came up big in a upcoming comparison.
Since the car has not hit production yet, nor has been in a comparison, now is not the time to call the LS on the carpet.
To show that level of alacrity, and efficiency, the 8-speed is a great value, and MUST work as advertised!
A full-blown comparison will show us all what an LS460 can do, and if anyone has learned from history, Lexus should get the benefit of the doubt, which obviously hasn't happened here.
I'd be interested to see how many people on this board have stood next to both cars, at the same time. Not seen them at the same venue, but actually side-by-side?
I have, which brought about my comment. The 7 and the LS were not side-by-side, doh.
If the LS, as you admitted, deserves recognition for it's achievements, than handing over anything to the S-Class is contrary to that statement.
The truth is what it is? The truth is the LS460 maybe BETTER than the S-Class, due to it's value, looks, and impeccable track record.
There really is only one way to find out, and we haven't gotten there, yet.
Betting on Jack Nicholas is always a great bet.
My money's on Tiger Woods. If it ever came down to it.
DrFill
Read your earlier post today. It literally screams for some balance, which I am more than willing to provide. You essentially threw some extreme remarks out into this forum as bait, and we can see the result it had. So, I see the need for some balance.
You basically have stated the superiority of the LS460 as fact. The real fact is that the S-Class has been acknowledged as the benchmark. That everyone should agree on. Until the LS460(L) is determined to have toppled it, the S-Class remains the benchmark. It's that simple.
Perhaps the major comps will come in and will by majority claim that the new LS460(L) is the new standard, having toppled the S-Class, but until that happens, there is no substance to your posting the LS460(L) as the superior vehicle, other than indicating your own early opinion. And if that's all we're talking about, then say so.
Your analogy of Jack Nicholas and Tiger Woods has no place here. The new '07 S-Class is a brand new vehicle, not an old seasoned one. It also happens to be the current heavyweight champion. You may think you have a great contender, as I also believe you do, but until they are actually in the ring, I am going to continue to call the S-Class the heavyweight champion that is is.
That's the balance that I thought was needed here.
TagMan
They continue to criticize this auto because it is not something that it has never tried to be. It is not a Mercedes or BMW. It is a Lexus. It doesn't need or want to be anything else. Just accept that and you will all feel better.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
houdini -
Where's the beef?
You show me those posts that you say spout off that the LS460 is nothing but a piece of crap . . . or quit posting baloney.
TagMan