High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Sometimes I just don't want to draw attention with the 545, such as in certain parking lots where kids hang out.

    You do know that the Accord is the most stolen car in the U.S.? You have a better chance of your 545 still being where you parked it than you do with the Accord! :P
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    I was thinking more on the lines of malicious vandalism such as (gulp!) keying.

    If folks can steal a vehicle equipped with alarm and engine immobilizer from a high-traffic parking lot with security cars riding around, more power to 'em, I say.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Never underestimate a common thief.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I once got in to it with the guys on the Subaru board as I found it a little ridiculous that I was denied a test drive of an STI.

    Very brand-loyal over there, like some of the Lexus loyalty we see, maybe moreso.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    yes "brand loyal" is a good term"
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Common thieves I'm not too worried about.
    I'm much more concerned with some of today's fine young scholars auditing the parking lots during school time armed with keys!
    Would be tragic to deface my Bangle 545 with its breathtakingly unique, aggressive lines that even Lexus currently seeks to copy.
    I can only guess that some folks don't have an eye for beautiful architectural design.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    J.D. Power estimates that diesel sales will triple to 9% of the U.S. market by 2013, compared with a projected hybrid share of 5%.

    This is interesting, as Toyota and Lexus move forward with hybrids, it would seem that diesels are getting poised to clobber them.

    I'm good with that . . . very good.

    Good article here:

    The Axis of Diesel

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Like I've already said, I'm so tired of reading rave reviews about BMW's in British journals, only to see a "d" after the model number letting me know I can't ever have one.

    The emergence of lawful cleaner diesels in the USA should create a sensation in several years, and should render the hybrids to deserved obsolescence. These diesels will be cheaper to buy than hybrids and get much better mpg. Sounds like a no-brainer.

    A great link. Very exciting stuff! :)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Hopefully, you can get an Accord diesel in a year or so. If there is a waiting list I want on it. What a great everyday driver that would make.

    But... maybe before you buy any Accord you should at least check out the Hyundai Sonata. I have never driven one but they look great, I have read great things about them, the price is right, and they have best warranty around. Maybe your prediction will come true. They might pass Toyota and Honda!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Yes. My brother rented a Sonata recently for a weekend and he raved about it.

    I stick by my prediction. Hyundai will surpass Toyota in a few years. Honda would be a lot tougher.

    Very excited about the cleaner diesel potential: better mpg than hybrids with a nice big trunk. Imagine diesels beating the tough new EPA emission standards. What's not to like?

    Yes. I can see it now. The 2008 Honda Accord EXD, 31 city/44 highway, featuring manual lumbar support for the driver. :P

    2008 thesaurus look up of "hybrid": "obsolete."
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    And that estimate of 9% may prove a little on the conservative side, as automakers now are making alliances on improving and innovating new ways of making diesel the renewed source for internal combustion.

    On one side, you've got automakers that now have conjured up ways to get even cleaner diesel engines without the need of urea tanks. Thanks to piezo injectors(these are used in the race-versions of diesels), the atomazation of the diesel fuel is delivered to the cylinder more precise, thus elimanating back-burn, which causes the high Nox levels and the lovely aroma of SOOT!!!

    And then on the other side, the automakers have actually been able to keep costs down, even tho this new technology does cost major bucks to be mass-marketed. You've got Audi, MB, and now BMW all making clean diesel some way or another. MB just announced that they had good reason on holding off on the urea tank for the Bluetec, they've found a way to get the clean stuff without it.

    Audi recently announced that the new TDI's will meet EVERY emission requirements in the world(altho most countries don't have them). The new 5.0L TDI V10 will be twin-turbo'd and has been tested for durability over 500k miles.

    And of course everyone knows what BMW is doing with the diesel-electric.

    This thing has just began....
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Nissan's stocked surged 3% yesterday as the company has halted 3 months worth of talk with GM in hopes of forming an alliance.

    Well, honestly, I didn't think that was going to work. As I've eluded to before, that company isn't even out of the dark yet, as witnessed by the many quality woes that still plague their American made vehicles.

    And Renault? Need I say anything about the absolute most unreliable mass-marketed brand.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The emergence of lawful cleaner diesels in the USA should create a sensation in several years, and should render the hybrids to deserved obsolescence. These diesels will be cheaper to buy than hybrids and get much better mpg. Sounds like a no-brainer.

    A great link. Very exciting stuff!


    Glad you liked it!

    My initial enthusiasm for gas/hybrid technology has faded away fast.

    I am 100% behind the re-emergence of the diesel, as many of you know by now, and I look forward to purchasing a diesel powered vehicle in the near future.

    I agree with you that it has been frustrating to read the great reviews, only to discover that they won't ever be hitting our shores.

    Well, all that's about to change, my friend, and it's about time.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    that estimate of 9% may prove a little on the conservative side

    This thing has just began


    Absolutely.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Nissan's stocked surged 3% yesterday as the company has halted 3 months worth of talk with GM in hopes of forming an alliance.

    Today's news reported that they have now turned towards Ford. What do you know about this?

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This is supposed to be, check the title, a discussion about High End Luxury Marques. Could we drop the Hondas, Nissans, Fords, Hyundais, etc. and get back on topic?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Getting back on topic, but first I'll answer your question. I don't know much about it, but I do know that they had a better chance with GM. Maybe they're trying to get a bargain English deal on Aston, Jag, and Range.

    More to the point: Today, I actually for the first time attracted a crowd at the local Mobil filling station. It seems there is a huge fan base for Audi's S cars, particularly the new S6 and S8.

    One guy was driving a pristine previous generation RS 6, and I ended up making small talk with him over why so many people look over Audi's big car. Conversely the A4 and A6 do very well here.

    Long story short, here in the NE at least, these cars are highly desireable as you can't even get a Sport-pkg equipped A4/A6 3.2 because of the dealers are out. And the RS 4? fuggadoboutit. S6? Fat chance. S8? Better luck in '08..

    But I did here that Audi is really serious about getting the 550hp RS 6 over here next year, as it has just overthrown the M5 in a 3 way G'car comparison test between them and the E63 in a recent German pub.... And Audi is now talking with the big folks(VW) about bringing the A8L TDI in time for the eventual MB S320 CDI.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Pat, here is my theory on why this forum strays off topic from time to time. Most of the folks here are VERY knowledgable about cars...all cars. So, when a regular here has a question or a bit of interesting info about an off topic subject or auto, etc., they come here because they value the opinions here. So thanks for letting it stray from time to time.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Finally, there is a Mercedes-Benz in my garage! Tuesday I picked up a 2003 CLK430 Cabriolet. It is Brilliant Silver over Ash (grey) with an Ash top.

    Four things come to mind when driving it over the last couple of days; fast, comfortable, stylish and solid. Everything clicks and thunks, from the doors being closed to the windows doing their little drop down/raise up routine everytime a door is opened. The doors on this car are so heavy and the controls all thack and click when used. The ride is of the magic carpet variety, it isn't a sports car and speed is deceptive. I've found myself doing 90 mph when I thought I was doing about 75 at best - dangerous $$$. Handling is also deceptive too, sometimes the car feels as if it isn't going to handle a corner to well, but once you take a set it does just fine and the body doesn't lean as much as you feel it would. If that makes sense. In short there is no BMW-like turn-in here, but it isn't unresponsive either. When you actually push it you find that it can handle, it just doesn't relish the task like say a BMW does. I should have some pics up shortly.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Mercedes-Benz CL63 AMG:

    image

    Lexus LS600hL:

    image

    Jaguar XKR:

    image

    BMW M6 Convertible:

    image

    Audi R8:

    image

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Let me be the first here to say, CONGRATULATIONS, Merc1!!!!!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, I'll be second then, since syswei beat me out by just a hair. ;)

    That's terrific, merc - great to hear! Hurry with the pics!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Best of luck to you with the CLK!

    There's nothing quite like good heavy doors that thunk with some real authority!

    Looking forward to the photos! :)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Great! I knew this day would come. Congrats, enjoy!
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    yeah, good luck getting or even finding a manual V6 Accord!

    The V6 Camry does have a EPA of 22/31. Check Toyota's own website, EPA figures 22/31 for V6 SE.

    Huh...let's see 3.5L 268bhp V6 vs. 3.0L 240 bhp V6. Which one is going to hustle more?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "Huh... let's see 3.5L 268hp V6 vs. 3.0L 240 hp V6. Which one is going to hustle more?"

    In short, the Honda stick!!! The Toyota may have more power, but it's immediately sapped by it's horrid power-to-weight ratio, something Honda does very well, and that's why the Acuras will probably never have a V8(except perhaps the new NSX V10).

    And power isn't the whole story. Don't you think it's quite odd that the smaller engined GL450 with it's 4.7L 335hp V8 outguns(by almost a full second) the hulkin' Escalade with it's 6.2L 403hp all-American iron V8???
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    CONGRATS Merc!!!! That car has been one of my favorite personal tourers.

    And the new CLK is just as good, especially the new 475hp CLK63.

    I;m jealous. At least until my S600 gets here.. :P ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    merc - A Mercedes in your garage! This is so appropriate, and deserving, IMHO.

    I think I know how much it means to you and just how much you genuinely appreciate it.

    I may be one of the last to congratulate you here, but let me assure you that I am truly glad for you. The CLK430 is a very cool Mercedes, as it represents a terrific combination of some of the best attributes Mercedes is known for
    . . . and plenty of extra F-U-N as well.

    That 430 engine willingly delivers silky smooth performance like a bullet, and at the same time is very generous with its noteable fuel economy.

    Beautiful car! Congratulations again, merc!

    (radar detector needed? ;) )

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Guess that explains why you have been so quiet the last few days. Congratulations and enjoy!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Allright Merc---As you remember my wife had one but not as much power....I personally think the top is the best there is....Happy for you Tony
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks to all for the well wishes!!!

    A few pics:

    imageimageimageimage

    imageimageimageimage

    imageimageimageimage

    M
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I have never paid much attention to this car but I like it. Really like the color and the interior is clean and simple. One of the best interiors I have seen on a Mercedes or any other car for that matter, though the nav screen looks a little low.

    LS board is reporting prices of 07 LS as $61,000 base SWB and $71,000. LWB

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    No need to rely on the LS board for this info.

    Here's the official Toyota press release right here:

    2007 Lexus LS460 and LS460L base MSRP

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Wow! The car is a real looker!

    A Valentine One should be a perfect match for that particular color scheme! ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OK, merc - Since it is on-topic and all . . .

    Because you posted those gorgeous HELM photos, just for fun I'll put those pics in order, based upon appearance, IMHO of course. This won't be easy. They're all good-lookers, but here goes:

    1. Mercedes CL63AMG
    2. Audi R8
    3. Jag XKR
    4. BMW M6 Convertible
    5. LS600hL

    How about the rest of you?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Sorry, but I place the R8 first. After viewing that baby, the other photos sort of became irrelevant to me.
    A truly stunning vehicle.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Merc1,

    this is a beaut!

    Coincidentally I saw a black CLK430 model just like yours with its top down in front of a restaurant while seated outside today(probably the last sunny warm day in Toronto until spring arrives). Both my client and I admired the car while eating.

    Congratulations MercCLK1
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Ok Tagman, the drums are rolling and the audience is sitting very tensely at the edge of their seats while awaiting my rankings of Merc1's HELM pictures:

    Here it its:

    1. Jag XKR
    2. MB CL63AMG
    3 Audi R8
    4 Lexus LS600hL
    5 BMW M6 Convetible

    Oh yes Merc I do think your CLK convertible looks much nicer than the coupe that is ranked number 5.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    This is interesting, as Toyota and Lexus move forward with hybrids, it would seem that diesels are getting poised to clobber them.

    Tagman that is a great post about diesels.

    But in terms of diesels the article below is a wretched fly in the ointment :sick: :

    J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
    Problems with Heavy-Duty Truck Engines Increase as More Manufacturers Employ
    New Emission Standards


    WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.: 5 October 2006 -As manufacturers of heavy-duty truck engines strive to meet government-regulated emission standards by implementing new emission technologies, customers are increasingly experiencing problems with their engines, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2006 Heavy-Duty Truck Engine/Transmission StudySM released today.

    The study, now in its 10th year, measures customer satisfaction with the engines in two-year-old heavy-duty trucks (Class 8) by examining four vital engine factors. They are (in order of importance): engine quality (30%); engine performance (26%); engine cost of ownership (22%); and engine warranty (22%). The study examines engines supplied in 2004 model-year trucks, the second model year impacted by the Consent Decree that raised diesel engine emission standards.

    To meet emission regulations, manufacturers are continuously redesigning engines and employing new technologies, such as redirecting exhaust gas back into the engine to burn off more pollutants.
    Consequently, the average number of reported engine problems has increased to 74 PP100 (engine problems per 100 vehicles)-up from 46 PP100 in 2005.

    I know this article is about trucks and not cars. But diesel cars will have the same challenges as trucks with emissions technology and they may end up being less reliable.

    This is a big issue especially for MB, Audi and BMW. These three marques are already struggling to improve their quality/reliability rankings in North America. Their new low emission diesels will be more complex and are likely to be more vulnerable to malfunctions.

    Based on CR and JD Powers hybrid cars are top ranked. There appears to be no major reliability issues with hybrids. This in itself can be considered an advantage for Lexus hybrids since as we all know the perception of reliability is an important factor for many buyers.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    My opinion is I'm pleased with the LS460L pricing, and the SWB should be near $65k, so it does indeed represent incredible value, especially against cars like 750i.

    The LS460L is aggressively priced, and is right on top of the 750iL. This may add feul to Tag's fire on that note.

    I don't think Lexus is after BMW customers any more or less than they are after Mercedes customers. I believe Lexus' priority is to replace Mercedes as the preeminent luxury marque in the US.

    With that in mind, I would price the 600 right on top of the S550, and see what shakes out.

    This would increase market awareness and brand image, and maybe Lexus will sell more than 2-3k hybrids. It's as good a time as any to find out if this luxury hybrid class has legs or not.

    If Lexus can sell more than 3k 600h a year, than the model is a success, IMHO.

    Considering I predicted a 10/15 launch date, and a 10/2 price release date, I'd say I was accurate enough.

    The LS460L is VERY well-equipped, and the 750i is in for a long 2007. Std NAV makes the spread $10k. A novel approach, since it is extremely rare for NAV to be standard on any car, HELM or not.

    Considering the low price on the SWB, 30k sales is a low-ball estimate. 40 is more accurate, and 45-50k is not out of the question in '07!

    Regarding this best-dressed list, move the LS up to #2, behind the Jag!

    Germany makes many cars better looking than these! But my favorite will always be the 1995 BMW 740/750iL. :) And the current SL is pretty sweet!

    But Lexus is learning how to style-and-profile!

    There goes the neighborhood! ;)

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
    Problems with Heavy-Duty Truck Engines Increase as More Manufacturers Employ New Emission Standards


    Dewey, there is one significante difference . . . up until several days ago, October 1st, the sulphur in diesel fuel was a major component, but is now reduced to somewhere around 5%.

    Previous generations of emissions control had to work around all that sulphur, which is no longer the case.

    New ballgame. Say hello to BlueTec and the future of diesels.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Dewey, there is one significante difference . . . up until several days ago, October 1st, the sulphur in diesel fuel was a major component, but is now reduced to somewhere around 5%.

    The lower sulphur content may do wonders for our environment but it will not neccessarily be good for a diesel engine. This article I linked relates to trucks but is also relevant for autos (HELM and non-HELM). The Europeans luxury marques and Honda/VW are not only developing complex emissions technologies but also developing complex technologies to avoid engine damage. This added complexity in diesel engines may make them more vulnerable to malfuncitions. Whether that is the case or not we will have to wait and see (in a few years we will see MB Blutec reliability stats):

    Trucking fleets around Australia are reporting a rash of fuel-related seal failures linked to the recent introduction of diesel fuel with a lower sulphur and aromatics content. The seals in question are fuel injection and throttle-shaft O-rings and gaskets made with a rubber compound. Some of these seals are reportedly failing after as little as 3 weeks exposure to the new low sulphur diesel fuel. Engines with rotary injector pumps use diesel for lubrication, as contrasted with in-line pumps which use crankcase oil. As a result, engines with rotary pumps are, at this time, the hardest hit.
    The problems are apparently an unexpected result caused by the fuels mandate which has taken effect. On 1 January 2000, Western Australia became the first state in Australia to achieve “Euro II” (Low Sulphur) standards in diesel fuel and to eliminate lead from petrol.


    link title
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Nice. Joke, 268bhp and about 3200lbs. You call that "horrid power to weight ratio"?? So tell me oh wise one, what is the 0-60 of the Accord V6 coupe with manual?? I bet you it's only a few tenth's of a second quicker than the Camry SE V6, which is 6.1.

    BTW, you do realize this is the wrong forum? unless the Accord and Camry all of a sudden became high end lux marques.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    As you say, it is indeed the wrong discussion, so let's drop it, okay?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    dropped.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OK, now I see what you are saying.

    I am a bit suspicious about the article that you linked, as it was authored by the B100 product company that markets the solution to the "problem" that they are focusing on.

    But, if true, then there are clear measures that can be taken, both in the manufacturing methods of the engines, with regards to sealant properties and composition, and also with the fuel itself.

    The lower acidity of the newer fuel was noted in the article as a positive attribute, but it seems the major concern is its the lower lubricating properties.

    This is extrememly interesting, however, and the bottom line here is that it does indeed raise the concern level, as you were initially pointing out. Time will tell if the difficulties indicated in the article with regards to heavy duty diesel engines and the use of low sulphur fuel have any real relationship to the auto diesel engines that will be forthcoming.

    Gosh, I sure hope for the best, because if there are failures similar to the ones cited, then the trend towards diesels could essentially be undermined.

    This is worthy of more investigation and discovery, IMO, and if you find any more information about this as it relates to the CAR diesels and the low sulphur fuel, please post it. I, for one, would be most interested.

    At this point, however, I remain very optimistic and excited about the forthcoming diesel engine options that we will be seeing within just another model year or two.

    Thanks for the post!

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The Europeans luxury marques and Honda/VW are not only developing complex emissions technologies but also developing complex technologies to avoid engine damage. This added complexity in diesel engines may make them more vulnerable to malfuncitions.

    More follow up to your post, please.

    Complexity in terms of the technology involved to create the solution? . . . or, are you saying that the engine itself is becoming more "complicated" somehow.

    The reason I am asking is that complex technology could be utilized to create what is ultimately a "simple" or "non-complicated" solution.

    Generally, diesel engines are not all that complicated. So, are you referring to some major complex engine component that is now an inherent part of the engine?

    I mean a new generation particulate filter doesn't strike me as complex even if the technology to develop it is. A new generation of a catalytic exhaust component doesn't strike me as complicated, even it its unique individual manufacturing process is complicated.

    So, what specifically are you referring to that is so complex or complicated that it might be subject to increased failure?

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OK, Doc . . . now that the LS prices are in . . . let me ask you this . . .

    Price out an LS460L (must be long wheelbase to properly comp) with the closest and most similar equipment package you can come up with to an S550.

    Let me see the true difference in price, but similarly equipped.

    I'll be most interested in your calculations.

    Thanks,

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    As you know Tag, I'm pro diesel. It's my slogan for this years mid-term Senate elections :P ;) .

    But seriously, let's disect this conversation a bit. Dewey, yes with new technology comes new problems. That can be said for just about everything. But, when it comes to diesel technology, few(if any) continents do it better than Europe. Low-sulphur equipped diesels have been there for years, with little to no more problems over the old smokin' Joe diesels of only 2 decades ago.

    Some of things that were mentioned in that JD study were a bit misleading to say the least. For one, the whole thing about the maintenance is nothing more than the owners are bit beturbed because they can no longer work on the trucks themselves , which now requires special tools and software to ascertain problems, diagnose, and fix.

    On to the mainstream passenger cars, it now has been proven that the low-sulphur diesel are more durable and have more longevity than a comparable traditional diesel. This can be tossed up due to a dramatically lower NOX level and much better management of fuel, such as those piezo injectors that burn 98.89% of ALL fuel that enters the cylinder wall, compared to a 80% at best for an older diesel.

    And now you have the ultra-quiet diesels that are so deceiving that you'd swear that your in a gas-powered car, as witnessed by the ultra-quiet MB 3.2CDI.

    This all is not yo say that you didn't bring valid points, in which you did, but I don't think that the Europeans are going to drop the ball on diesel and their incredible reliablility anytime soon.

    For me, gas-hybrid technology is just a band-aid to the energy problem that is happening, especially since it has been proven time and time again that they get nowhere near there estimated EPA in most circumstances. And for this, I will definetely be on the diesel side of the fence.....
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As you know Tag, I'm pro diesel.

    You know my position as well. Gas/electric hybric is a viable alternative that is OK as a temporary technology. Unless it provides some unusual breakthrough, I don't expect it to last for the long haul. I'm OK with it in the meantime, however.

    Diesels are a far better answer, without a doubt. And diesel/electric could be something to consider.

    Hydrogen will likely worm its way into our infrastructure, and my crystal ball says it will become the big winner when the dust finally settles.

    But, for the immediate future, I am so anxious to get my hands on a new generation diesel vehicle.

    I expect Mercedes to release the BlueTec in many of their models within the next few years. Even Japan is coming aboard. Toyota will be the lone ranger with their gas hybrids, and I'll bet they finally make the switch, too.

    The market itself will force them to, IMO. Their one big advantage could be diesel/electric hybrids due to their leading experience with the hybrids.

    TagMan
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