Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
The Lexus is clearly the leader in reliability and dependability. How much that is important to you in a luxury sedan is a personal decision, but I know of many MB loyalists who are less and less enthusiased with what they perceive is the decline in the marquee over the past few years.
Unless you step up to the S55, the performance difference and driving dynamics are only slightly in favor of the S class, IMO. I agree with sv7887, neither are designed with the enthusiast in mind.
The LS430 probably isn't going to steal sales from the S-class among those who find the S the standard of projecting personal success. Take that for better or worse.
I briefly considered the S55 18 months ago, but ended up with an M5. I don't need the extra room of the S class and prefer a crisper handling car. But I never thought I'd end up with a substantially more reliable car to boot. Total number of unscheduled maintenance trips in 18 months: 1 for a check engine light that came on by mistake the 1st week I owned the car. None in 32k miles since.
So, is the S class worth the premium over the LS430? Perhaps to some. But to others, the LS430 is a heck of a good car that is unlikely to frustrate you with more trips to the dealer than you really want to make.
I thought I remember reading last year that the average age of all car buyers for BMW was 49, MB was 53 and Lexus was 54.
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp
IMO, it is a waste of time trying to argue which is better. These are all fine cars. More importantly, no mind will be changed in the debate. Just enjoy your LS's and be happy.
YES!!!
:-)
Where did I get my information from? Go back and read my post #2974 where I give my source as Microsoft Carpoint not MB executives.
Also you state "People making $125k can't so easily afford an LS430. " Read that post again. I didn't say that they made 125 K. I said that they made 186 K. That would make the Lexus less than 1/3 of their yearly income. My source for this contention (once again) was MS Carpoint.
I really think you're making to broad of a statement when it comes to the press. They do care about price. Haven't you noticed where a Mercedes gets knocked for costing too much more than it's competion. If not check out the comparo in Road and Track (I think two months ago) in which the SL500 came in forth, behind a Cadillac, Jaguar and a Porsche...due to price. Clearly the car would have ranked much higher if weren't for it's 98K price, the number tally confirms this, as the only place the SL really got dinged was in the value equation. They even stated that the SL500 was probably the best all-arounder and best car for everyday, in the test. You seem to equate a comparison test with only being a track meet, and that simply isn't so. How can they talk about reliability when they only have the cars for a few days, or a week? In order for them to include that into their deliberations they'd have to keep all 5 cars for a months and months. Not feasible. Their tests are to gauge a cars abilities, and yes they do drive the cars out in the real world. It just appears by the posts in this thread that when they slam an Audi A8 they're so right, but when a Lexus gets knocked for not being anything special to drive they don't know what they're talking about, or at least they aren't being through enough. Thats a double standard. The best example of this is the SC430 vs the segment.
Yes I'll wager about the 7-Series, because I'll be shocked if such a overcomplicated car wins any of the inevitable comparisions between the new LS, S, A8, and XJ. We should start seeing these next month, I'd say. Seriously, I'd be shocked if it does win, the car is a ergonomic mess. If they put it over simply because it handles better your point will be made, at least with that publication.
Also, check out some of the British mags take on the 7-Series. (I don't know if anyone here reads magazines like CAR, Topcar or EVO, but I think anyone that doesn't is missing the best automotive writing to be read today.) Anyway, I don't think I've seen the 7-Series win yet in one of their tests, its either the S-Class, XJ or A8 that come out on top, most of the time. Now I already see the A8 loosing over here, at least in a C&D comparo since they've pretty much said that they don't care much for the car because of it's ride. MT has a comparo of the XJ8 and the A8L in their Nov issue, btw.
I disagree with you on the demographic between the S and LS. They are not the same. Their has to be a difference between the average LS (55-60K) sold and the average S-Class (73-85K) sold. There is no way this is the same exact group of people. A lot of people that like the LS430 are stepping up from GS and RX models and the S-Class is hardly ever mentioned due to it's starting price. I realize you can "take" a loaded S500 later this morning if you choose, but from what I've seen that isn't the case with *most* LS430 buyers.
No I didn't get to attend the AMG event, it was sold out. There is always next year huh?
syswei,
You're talking about a car that isn't sold here for one, the S280. Next up, who is doing all the comparing between the LS430 and the S500, Lexus is. Lexus is the one billing the LS430 as the S-Class competitor so the imaginary comparison with a S280 is really pointless.
It's not Mercedes' fault that Lexus tries to cover two different segments with the LS430, which by the way is a wise strategy in most respects. None of the full size luxury cars are the same in price as the LS430, not the A8, 7 or S. Only the base XJ8 is in the same ballpark.
My point about the Automobile Magazine award is that the price cutoff it way too low because you can't get a S-Class, 7-Series or LS430 for anywhere near 40K.
"There are probably some MB fans who are thinking, "if they didn't pick the S, Automobile
Magazine's criteria must be flawed"
Not hardly, I'd suggest you read back to their 2000 issue in which they picked the S-Class for that very same award. Didn't say their criteria is wrong, just that the price cutoff is misleading.
sv7887,
Now I've said a lot of things, but I don't recall ever saying that the LS is no competition for the S-Class, that must be an actual owner saying that. Lets just say that if you think the LS' design is "original" I'll just cut this short by saying that I completely disagree with that. I don't see anyone complaining about the LS430 having an "overly smooth" ride. What I do see people complaining about is the control of the body and the handles that results from that compared to a German car. Who is going to complain about a smooth ride if the handling is up to snuff, that doesn't make sense. You're saying that suspension feel doesn't matter? You're kidding right? That is what makes a car "drive" the way it does. German cars have this in spades, hence their following. Nobody is saying that any of these cars have "Indycar" handling. You're blowing it out of proportion. If feel didn't matter then Lexus owners wouldn't harp about how smoothly their cars ride. In all these cars, from Audi to Mercedes to Cadillac and Infinfi, "feel" is what people look for in their first test drive. The ideal ride/handling mix is what will be debated forever, I personally just like Mercedes' take on the question. Just like Jaguar, Audi, BMW and Cadillac have their own definition of this.
Styling and design are personal things and it's easy for a Lexus owner to dismiss these as a grip because that is what the car is least good at. Just like MB fans don't see surveys as being the bible.
I'm not sure what the ratio is between the S430 and the S500, since 2002. Now before that, especially upon it's debut in spring of 1999, they sold almost equally. I do know that the previous S500 outsold the S420 by a pretty good margin from 1992-1999.
M
I disagree !
One (looks and styling) is subjective (personal opinion); the other (surveys) is objective (many opinions)
Think about how developed countries conduct business, politics, policies, etc. Many decisions are based on formal and informal surveys. For example, there is incontrovertible evidence that smoking leads to lung cancer ! How do we know ? Bcos a vast amount of data and records (statistical surveys) exist that show a correlation of long years of smoking to emphysema (?) and other lung diseases. That you and other Merc fans choose not to accept surveys that cast your brand in a weak position is only ignoring the obvious. OTOH, DCX is quite concerned about its current lack-lustre reliability issues with 300+ repairs per 100 cars over 3 years (2000-date). That ain't something to be proud of especially if you are behind the likes of Ford in this area. Yikes!
I wasn't accusing you of saying a LS was no match for the S class. That accusation was meant for someone else. I haven't said anywhere that the LS design is original. However, I did say the newest Lexus designs seem to be. I'm using examples of the RX330, ES, and GX. The pictures of the new GS seem to corroborate my point.
"What I do see people complaining about is the control of the body and the handles that results from that compared to a German car. Who is going to complain about a smooth ride if the handling is up to snuff, that doesn't make sense. You're saying that suspension feel doesn't matter? You're kidding right? That is what makes a car "drive" the way it does. German cars have this in spades, hence their following."
Question is, do LS owners complain about this? Using your argument, it can be said that the LS followers in fact DO like their smooth rides. I think it's the German followers who have a problem with it, not the LS owners.
I'm not a suspension expert, but I'm going to guess that you probably sacrifice the smoothness of a ride when you go for sharper handling. (Correct me if I'm wrong) You make it sound like the LS handles like the 747 while the German cars handle like a F-22. Having driven both cars, the difference is perceptive, but not especially drastic. I really think this whole Handling issue is greatly blown out of proportion. I've said this repeatedly, those seeking a superb performance car would probably opt for a M5 or XJR. Also, unless you plan on racing these cars, it's just a pointless argument.
As for Demographics..The avg price of a LS isn't 55-60K. Even the typical base model is $58K. The common midrange one will cost around $65-67K. (I'm sure these prices have changed somewhat since I bought mine in '02). At $67K it's not that big of a step to an S430. Those paying $73K probably can step up to the base S500. That's all that I was trying to accomplish.
I preach about JDP and CU assessment b/c they consider the practical aspects of owing the car. I've always found that the testing criteria of Car and Driver and others to be unrealistic. Like I'm really going to take corners at 100+ MPH..
Does anyone know what percentage of these cars are leased and financed?
SV
They rate the Lexus # 1 with the Mercedes a close 2nd. BMW is last. What is more interesting is their comments on the highs and lows of each.
The Lexus gets high marks for "ride,quietness,powertrain refinement,fit and finish,reliability,turning circle and ergonomics" and lows in "agility" with a comment that "body lean in corners is pronounced,steering lacks feedback and while the car was secure in our emergency-handling tests it didn't shine." I would say that these are the negatives I have found when test driving the car in the past. If the Euro tuned suspension makes as large a difference as posters on this board have indicated I will try one with an open mind.
The Mercedes highs were "ride,handling,quietness,rear seat" and lows were "reliability and cup holders". CR would not recommend the Mercedes because the predicted reliabilty was poor (solid black circle). I think this last issue is crucial for Mercedes to address and will be the determining point for me for future Mercedes purchases.
Someone asked about finance vs cash - I think here in Silicon Valley I am the last of the dying breed of people who buy cars cash. I only know *one* other friend who did - he got a BMW 330Ci, even though he could easily wing a new Bentley Continental. Moderation seems to be "in" for cash buyers these days. :-)
Since we are trying to categorize, me and my friends are very much into watches, and one is a very successful Jaguar sales associate, whi has the following theory: for te most part, Lexus owners don't give a hoot about good watches, MB owners are brand conscious but have a high percentage of quartz owners, and Jag owners tend to be mechanical watch people. True watch afficionados tend to also be collectible car fans. Just advanced the theory for what it's worth and as an entertaining side note. Note: I do collect mechanical watches. Buying a good watch every 1-2 years is one of my old traditions. :-)
With few exceptions, and contrary to what the Lexus enthusiasts seem to think is fair and proper, MB cars are sold out. You can't get an SL, CL class without an 18 month wait or sold used above MSRP. Look at the E class board where the '04s are sold out through March of next year before they have even hit dealer showrooms. The S class will not sell as briskly but still does well considering that it is in its last year of this production cycle with a new model coming out in '05.
Lexus should be so fortunate as to have these "problems."
Now with these surveys. There is a reason why European car owners/fans don't see them as the bible. Right here on Edmunds I can read about Acura TLs having one transmission problem after another. Also on here I can find more than a few people complaining about the ES300's transmission. What I really want somone to answer is how BMW managed to place 5th(?) in one these surveys, when the 7-Series by all accounts was the most bug ridden car of the year. None of this is reflected in these precious surveys. Why is that? But yet I can read on how Mercedes' have brake dust problems, how Minis have a bad ride and how a Hummer has bad gas mileage. My point is that these surveys are not conclusive to a point to assume that Mercedes' are breaking down at the side of the road. There is a lot of detail missing, especially with JDP data. There is no way I'm going to blindly accept these as gospel ever, because they simply don't tell the whole story. Yes, a Lexus is more reliable than a BMW or Mercedes, but how much so is the questionable part.
sv7887
You're still missing the point about the handling of these two cars. Nobody is trying to make it seem like what you're saying when comparing a 747 to a F-22. Where has anyone said that the difference is that drastic? I don't know how else to explain to you. If you can find me one road test comparison of luxury sedans in a U.S. magazine that actually said one car was better than another simply because it could take a curve at a 100 mph better than the next car, I'll eat that issue. That simply is an exagerration of whats been said here.
Demographics. Ok so the average LS430 leaves out the door for 58K or even 68K, thats still about a 15K difference between it and a S500, there is no way everyone going for the Lexus can afford the S500. My point is here is that there is a different demographic for the S and LS, they aren't nearly the same, the only place where they would be is in the case of the S430.
pathdoc,
They actually knocked the S430 for it's predicted reliability, of which they don't know squat about yet due to the car being facelifted for 03', and for it's cupholders. How ridiculous.
Can any Lexus fan tell me why I'm reading in here that an Acura is a "upscale Honda" and a Lexus isn't an upscale Toyota?
M
I saw that demo on Lexus in microsoft car point and found out that it is from a census they take. I've bought Lexus vehicles since 95 and now that I think about it I've never been asked nor have i ever provided them my age. They did ask for a bracket of what age group I'm in though - if that counts.
I looked at some of the reviews at carpoint and the inconsistency is something. They say the 7 loses value quickly and the S and LS don't but then they rate the 7 as a higher percentage (70-60 if I remember right in the scoring to the other two). They praise the LS' interior quiet and jump on MB a bit for not being as quiet then score them the same way. I don't think there is any bias there (the scoring was unfair to all three cars in different instances), just a general inconsistency (the two I gave are just references - there are plenty more amongst the three cars) and when i see that I don't take the data seriously as no one is checking what is printed. I mean if I catch such mistakes with a 5 minute (if that) review than its obvious no one is edit checking them for a living.
So let's see - now we are up to 80 yrears old. Within a day or two we should crack the century mark. Your predjudice against Lexus is beyond reproach and I will no longer respond to it.
M
The rare NEW SL you will see at dealers is typically an SL55 which goes for 130 big ones. The market for these cars is small, almost as small as Ferrari.
The marketplace has basically spoken. I have never seen used Lexus vehicles go for MSRP. I have never heard of an 18 month waiting list for a Lexus.
On another point my comment about 80 year olds drving Lexi was clearly hyperbole and intended as a joke. Clearly, however, the demographics of a Lexus buyer is different than an MB: he's older and less affluent. There's nothing wrong with that but it helps to explain Lexus' marketing strategy. I think Lexus' main competitor is Cadillac and not Mercedes. <JOKE>Who else would want to drive a car that looks like a coffin (and when your time comes you don't even have to get out of the car! )</JOKE>
Incidentally, studies have shown that people spend about 4 months gross salary on a new car. With this perspective Carpoints stats are right on target (which makes me believe their demographic data is accurate): So for an average yearly income of 186 K Lexus buyers purchase a 60 K car (4 months income). At an average income of 286 K MB (S 500) buyers pay about 90 K (again 4 months income).
I think it would be nice if someone made a blind-spot checking system to warn of potential collisions when a driver intentionally changes lanes.
As for the 7 placing fifth in a survey, I didn't happen to see this. But it may have been a JDP survey that doesn't measure quality. There is one such, I can't remember what it's called.
Does that, in itself, show that it is a worse car or something?
SL buyers probably have lower average incomes than Ferrari buyers, does that mean that the SL is a worse car for the money?
"While Japanese-branded vehicles continue to dominate in terms of long-term vehicle quality, the Europeans have lost their edge over the U.S. domestic-branded vehicles...
The 2003 study, which measures problems reported by original owners of 2000 model-year vehicles at three years of ownership, finds that although there is near parity between U.S. Domestics and Europeans in terms of initial quality, substantial quality gaps appear between the Domestics and the Europeans in long-term durability. On average, models by domestic automakers outperform the Europeans by 49 problems per 100 (PP100) vehicles at three years of ownership.
"Conventional wisdom said that dependability was the property of the Japanese and Europeans," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates. "While that’s still true for automakers like Toyota and Honda, it’s no longer the case for many of the Europeans. Porsche, Jaguar, Saab and BMW perform well above the industry average in dependability, but many other European brands are bought based on a reputation for long-term quality and fall far short of even the average. This is in stark contrast to the results of the first VDS, conducted in 1990, when Mercedes-Benz led the industry.""
To see the full press release, go to http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/releases/index.asp?catid=1 and click on Acura, and then click on the blue icon in the upper right of the grid (i.e., 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study / Press Release).
Personally I had no idea that MB fared so well back in 1990 (they are well below average now). If they can get back to number 1 status, I'll certainly consider them very seriously for my next purchase.
That said, the demographic generalizations being made above suggesting an older, less afluent Lexus buyer don't hold true within my circles. Examples: A 45 year old business school classmate of mine sold his company in March, 2001 and personally cleared $440 million. Drives: LS430. A 65 year old real estate executive with 6,000 apartment portfolio - S430; his 41 year old son, S500. I could go on.
My former classmate with the LS430 also has a 911 Turbo in the garage which is his "fun to drive" car. His opinion, the LS430 is 90%+ the luxury auto of the S500, with 0% of the maintenance headaches and hassles. He values his time very highly and if he's going to have hassles, it will be over a sports car like the 911 rather than his daily driver luxury sedan. In spite of his success, he has no apparant ego need to flaunt it.
In my circles, the number of people who buy an LS430 (or Q45) because they can't afford an S500 is less than the number who have drifted away from the Mercedes brand over quality control and reliability issues over the past few years. I'm glad I don't need the size of the S or LS or Q. I'm not sure what I would do.
An interesting calculation: with his net worth of $46b, if we included EVERY LS and S owner in a demographic analysis, Bill would, all by his lonesome, skew the LS average (mean) net worth upward by $230k! (I am assuming 200k LSs on US roads, which is just a guess based on a 2003 run-rate of 20k or so cars. I am also assuming that he no longer owns an MB...I know he once did, before the LS, but don't know if it was an S or if he sold it.)
Steve Ballmer's $12b would skew the LS430 mean upward by another $60k. Steve is another LS driver, though it is conceivable that he also owns an S.
These stats have little to do with who can afford what car. Income should not be confused with wealth, which are two different things.
Somebody may have an income of $300,000 but also have two mortgages, car payments, credit card debt, very little in the bank, etc. They may only be able to afford an Accord. They have a big income but would not be considered wealthy.
On the flip side, somebody may make $100,000 but have no mortgage or any other debt with lots of money saved up. This person could easily buy most any car with cash.
The true measure of what somebody can afford is their wealth (money saved up), not their income.
I think both the Lex and the S (and others discussed here) are the type of car people with high yearly incomes consider, because I think they target primarily business customers - a large sedan seldom is a choice out of passion.
I know my dad had a rule to never spend more than 4 x your monthly salary on an everyday car, which I think a prudent approach. In Europe, where company cars are perks and you get a mix of tax benefits and liabilities with it, there rules are different.
This summarizes my findings when I have tested the LS vs Mersedes S.
They are actually going after an OLDER buyer.
Better credit, higher dollar purchases, etc. etc.
Food for thought.
How many of you guys have disclosed to the F&I guy or to a customer questionaire, what you actually make?
If you are pulling in 500K a year do you tell them? I don't know anybody who would.
I'd tell them enough to get the loan.
And if you paycash, then how do they know?
The demographics are seriously skewed downward on ANY luxury product.
As far as selling new cars it may be true that MBUSA cannot legally compel its dealer network to sell them at or below MSRP they CAN exert considerable "influence" on them by regulating the allocation to each dealership. If this were not the case how can you otherwise explain the shenanigans going on with the SLs where they are sold back to the dealer with 15,000 miles and resold at MSRP? This is a common ccurence with MBs and rare or nonexistent with Lexus. 18 month waiting lists are also unheard of in Lexus country. Buyers selling their waiting list position for cash to more eager buyers is also common with the more popular MB models and would be laughed at by Lexus where you can go into any dealership and buy these cars right off of the lot. There's a reason that MBs are much more desirable than Lexi. Some of us have figured this out already.
I am still waiting for an answer to the question I posed previously: what would happen to LS430 sales if they raised the price of their vehicles to the level of the S class? Would they sell more or fewer vehicles? My guess is that their sales would plummet. Why would that be if the LS430 is as good or better than the S? Because 1) it isn't and 2) given their demographics this would price many current Lexus buyers out of the market.
Prices - more absurdity. If Lexus existed for 100+ years and MB existed for 12 years MB would be the lower price point. That is business pure and simple. It takes a while to build brand equity and what Lexus has achieved in 12 years is stupendous. Plus Lexus builds the cars more efficiently and hence has a lower cost of goods than MB. So any smart business staregy would use that for competitive pricing advantage. Business 101. They've nearly doubled the prices in 12 years while MB has been forced to lower prices. What does that tell you? It tells me that if I was an MB loyalist I would hope Lexus hangs around forever.
What other company besides MB could get away with charging $10,700 for a designo edition (S500) that basically gives you some unusual color choices (unusual for the US, they are apparently standard in some other countries) for exterior and interior, plus a wood/leather steering wheel and shift knob (which are standard on even on the base LS)?
If you slapped a Lexus badge on a G500 it would sell very few, perhaps close to zero, units. Even the car rags suggested such in their reviews...that for the price the G had little to offer except the three-pointed star.
If you put a Lexus badge on the S and tried to sell it at its currently high prices, it would sell fewer units.
Conversely if you slapped a MB badge on a LS without raising the price, it would sell lots more units.
> for 12 years MB would be the lower price point
As we business folk know, stretching 10 year trends to a century is questionable. Many things can happen. It'll be interesting to see which brands are still around in a century. That is speculation.
> what Lexus has achieved in 12 years is stupendous
That, of course, is absolutely true. Lexus is a no-doubt bone-fide luxury player. Globally, though, the MB brand name still carries far more value, and car marketing folk claim it's Merc and Porsche which have the highest global brand equity. And given the mismanagement of Merc in the last 12 years, that is a testament to a powerful brand name and mass psychology...
> Plus Lexus builds the cars more efficiently
> and hence has a lower cost of goods than MB.
I am not sure if it's still the case, but I thought histrocially Merc's margins are way higher than Toyota's. They've both managed to run up huge losses as of late, so for now it's a bit of a moot point.
> MB has been forced to lower prices. What does
> that tell you?
Not a lot, since lowering prices can be done for a variety of stratgic business goals, and MB still has more than enough models that sell at $90k plus - more so than any other vendor. The fact they've managed to hang in competitively despite compromised "design for excellence" benchmarks also says a lot about the other players. It is obvious Merc made a decision to build their core models to a cost point, and no longer to an uncompromised standard, which allowed them to lower prices and benefit from the trend towards "luxury for the masses" which they for a large degree initiated. If there's a brand that knows how to exploit their brand equity, it's MB, no question about it.
End customer perception always lags market reality for a while, and I wonder how long it'll take consumers to realize MB and BMW and others are increasingly creeping downmarket, and when it'll dillute the true luxury perception...
"Toyota reported a net profit of 222.5 billion yen ($1.85 billion) in the April-June quarter, down from a profit of 246.3 billion yen in the year-ago period."
"In the quarter ended June 30" DaimlerChrysler "earned $125 million, or 13 cents a share, compared with $1.27 billion, or $1.27 a share, a year ago.
You consider CR to be the end-all too right? They are probably the most automotive ignorant group of people calling themselves auto testers. They don't even know how to do basic performance testing on cars. All they can do it collect data, which is somewhat better detailed than JDP, but their actual "testing" is a joke.
The last time I checked a wood/leather steering wheel for an S-Class was $840.00 option, not 10K. Please read up on what you get with the Designo package before giving such incorrect information. Designo editions are very much overpriced, absolutely no argument from mere there. They aren't "standard" in other countries either.
There is something to be said about making a wood and leather steering wheel standard and call it an advantage. It says something about whats important to those respective brands.
ljflx,
"Lastly I never thought the S-class had much road feel or driver feedback which is the biggest mis-representation I've ever read on this board.In fact it and the Lexus were very close in every way. That is the biggest joke of all because if you bash the LS you are also bashing the S-class because they are so close in the essence of what they do and do so well."
Couldn't be more wrong, if that were the case the much cheaper LS would have ran the S-Class off the market long time ago. They don't drive the same, nor do look and feel the same. The vast differences of opinion (from owners too) on this board should illustrate that to you. I don't expect anyone from the Lexus crowd to understand anything about chasis dynamics as it's not as important as stereos and nav systems. Yes these two cars are similiar in mission but how they get there is different. And as far as bashing goes, style wise the S doesn't get anywhere near (if any) the bashing the LS does....probably their biggest difference of all, styling.
M
"...Lexus appears to appeal to the same conservative geriatric crowd (thus explaining its uninspired styling) that Cadillac aspires to. Lexus has substantial brand loyalty and that's why most of the trade-ins are from previous Lexus owners. It seems to me that the people who are attracted to Cadillac would also be attracted to the Lexus."
As I said, I'm more in the E-class / 5-series / GS buyer category. But for you to make that claim is particularly funny to me. You make it sound like Mercedes is some "hip" company and Lexus should diversify into the funeral parlor business.
May I point out, Mercedes offers no E-class or above, or AMG cars with a manual transmission to compete with BMW. A E55 6-speed would have great appeal to me, but alas, only the M5 will allow me that option. The $50k+ SLK32 is a cure for insomnia compared to the driving dynamics of my $32k S2000. In my car shopping experiences, I have consistently been told by Mercedes dealers that "we tend to appeal to an older, more conservative demographic, especially here in America". I'm in my late 40's and a Republican. Who the hell are they talking about?
If you think driving an S-class instead of an LS makes you feel younger, by all means go for it. But your position about the age/appeal issue is pretty funny from my perspective.
As I've said before there is nothing wrong, whatsoever, in appealing to the geriatric crowd. Nothing to be ashamed of. If anything it puts Lexus' styling strategy into perspective.
MB also appeals to the more mature person. For one thing they are so expensive that few young folks can afford them. That doesn't mean that younger people don't aspire to them however. Look at mbworld.org for example. Lots of young people on that board hoping one day to own an MB.
Hey no offence intended. I'm middle aged too.
Hold the Grey Poupon and pass the Dentu-cream and Ben-Gay.
"1 Lexus LS 430
The LS430 is hard to fault, other than for an unexciting character It's refined, comfortable,relaxing,and reliable, and provides effortless performance. Its base price is $55,125. To equip it similarly to the other cars here, we added the optional $12, 485 Ultra Luxury package, which raised the price to $70,447-still the least expensive of this months group."
Also in the same article on page 56.
"The Lexus LS430 was not only the least expensive of the group but also scored the highest and is the only car we can recommend."
ALSO NOTE:..I believe it was the 2003 that was tested and not the 2004....
Finally the reliability rating for the LS was their best rating and the rating for the 745I and the S430 were their lowest.
Lexus won several awards including the #1 nameplate (Porsche was #2 and BMW #3) and the LS 430 was the highest ranked premium luxury car (Mercedes SL was #2 and BMW 7 Series #3).
http://www.chiefexecutive.net/depts/executivelife/192.htm
Notice that quality/reliability is NOT included, but Lexus still places first both as an overall nameplate and in the luxury sedan category.
To see the details, go to http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/releases/index.asp?catid=1, click "Lexus" and then click one of the blue icons under "awardees" or "press release".
"Honda Pilot 9
Mini Cooper 10
Toyota Sienna 11
Mercedes-Benz SL-Class 12
Lexus RX 330 12
Honda CR-V 13
Acura TSX 14
Acura MDX 15
Honda Odyssey 15
Nissan Quest 16
Audi A8/S8* 16
For the month of September. Rankings are based on the number of days vehicles stayed in stock at about 3,000 dealerships around the country, starting with the vehicle that moved the fastest. Models on sale four months or less, or no longer in production, are excluded.
Source: Power Information Network LLC, an affiliate of J.D. Power & Associates"
147 potential problem areas...what makes you "blindly assume" that transmissions are not included? What makes you think that a company that (1) was founded in 1968 and (2) has done the VDS since 1990 and (3) that gets feedback from the auto companies that pay big bucks for its research, feedback that presumably includes ideas for what questions might be included in the standard surveys...
...somehow would be stupid enough not to ask about transmission problems?
The market has indeed spoken. MB, at a higher price point and with worse reliability, has waiting lists for some of their cars.
Lexus does not.
That, in itself, should tell you something about the public's perception of prestige and desirability.
As for the SL, I fully believe that some dealers have 0 stock...but some must have more than 12 days worth, so that the mean works out to 12. And it does say SL Class, so the S55 would be included. I highly doubt that used vehicles are included, but you can check the the PR department at JDP if you want.
If you still doubt the numbers, I guess it is your choice to ignore hard data gathered from a large sample of dealers by an independent and (presumably) unbiased source. It is your choice to ignore facts that aren't in agreement with your preconcieved view of the world.
If the SL has a 12 day supply - how does it have a waiting list? Shouldn't a waiting list mean a negative figure of some sort??
This analysis turned out the be easier with the S600, since the S600 is already outfitted to a very high degree. On the S600, for $8900 spent on the designo package, as far as I can tell the only things you get are:
- different color exterior
- different color interior (leather color and different wood...elm or poplar, neither of which is an expensive wood)
- steering wheel and shift knob have nappa leather rather than regular leather (nappa leather seats and interior trim are already standard on the S600)
- leather trim on floor mats
A total ripoff.
My source for the above was http://autos.msn.com/advice/pricereport.aspx?modelid=3384
As far as the designo colors being available standard in other countries, I swear I saw something on the MB site that implies this, but I can't find it now. But if you go to MB's UK site, you will see that ALL the colors offered there are available standard (i.e., no extra-cost colors). Unfortunately, the color names are different and the color samples are too small to really compare to the US designo colors.