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If I recall correctly, when Lexus did a face-lift of the LS about two years or so ago, I believe they added a 6-speed auto to the drivetrain, which was at or near the same time (maybe sooner) Benz introduced their 7-speed.
syswei- I do think the conti spur is a rebadged phaeton. I think any time a car is sharing parts from another brand, it takes away from what makes a premium or super premium car special, whether it's the example given, or a volvo S40/mazda3/ford focus. I couldn't own the bently without thinking about the fact that a similar car (DNA-wise) flies a VW from the front of it. BMW (except for the RR/7) and Mercedes-benz still build their own car. I am well aware that the chrysler crossfire is a 170 SLK, and the 300/magnum are using some components from the 210 E-class, but that's only because mercedes isn't selling those cars anymore.
MB added another gear, going to 7 in 2004, when Lexus added another going to 6.
I heard someone say comically that Mercedes did it for redundancy reasons, so you'd have 6 when one wasn't working for some reason ;=).
This is one of the worst PR insertions I have ever seen. I could have a field day with this one - it's that bad, but I'll keep it simple.
In effect it says - "So let's see - you dropped $90K on one of our cars before my watch. Too bad - you bought one of our problem legacy cars. We make them a lot better today now that I am in charge. But rest assured I will repair your legacy car to the standards we now have in place - but only if they force me to recall them. But don't worry - when you buy a new Mercedes it will be built to the standards that your old car should have been. Trust me it will never happen again as we have completely fixed all the problems we had." Yeah, right!
Man - if I dropped $50-100K on an MB in the past few years and read I had a legacy problem of theirs on my hands and in my garage I'd be one P'D off customer. I had hopes for this guy but he comes across just as arrogant and ignorant of his customers as the others. Who the heck is in charge of MB public relations? When will MB ever get it??
-syswei - since you guys are so google-rific, I would LOVE to hear of one case of death inside a Mercedes-Benz automobile where SBC was the cause of an accident, and failed to protect it's occupants. Haven't heard of one.
-If you're going to compare an LS sedan and an S-class sedan in a 0-60 drag race, the fair comparison would be lexus' biggest car, with it's biggest engine vs. benz' biggest car with it's biggest engine... flagship vs. flagship, right? Let's hedge it a bit and keep it to 8 normally aspirated cylinders though, to be "fair." Now, what was that S500 stat?
-Hybrids, hybrids, hybrids, that's great if you like granola, but you can't just beat this one thing to death....what else you got??? A rear-view video camera.
Mercedes' "reliability problems" are nothing more than electrical quirks and other minor things anyway items of importance have proven to be rock solid All of the safety systems introduced by the Germans have worked flawlessly from day one.
Care to back your sweeping claim up with some proof? When a claim is that broad it only takes an anecdote or two for me to prove you wrong.
Like the MB manufacturing defect that caused brake failure and at least one death:
http://english.people.com.cn/200205/24/eng20020524_96350.shtml
Or the failure of a brand new S’s airbag to deploy, costing the driver his left arm:
http://www.injuryboard.com/view.cfm/Article=1371
Or the family that met its death after their MB broke down and they were rear-ended by a truck:
http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/3709872/detail.html
(though in fairness we aren’t told why the MB was disabled possibly it was a flat or something unrelated to reliability)
And as for your claim that MB’s brake reliability issues (reported in CR) were just due to excessive pad wear and had nothing to do with safety:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/mercedes_recall.html
the article suggested that 1300 or so MBs required greater than normal distances and greater than normal force applied in order to stop. Doesn’t that mean safety to you?
Can you respond with even ONE instance where the lack of rollbars on the SC, or the lack of rear door airbags on other Lexi, has resulted in a death or serious injury?
in the email they sent me they said they use a minimum sample size
of 100 responses.
"I see you haven't let go of the "rebadging" theme. Let me ask you, is the Bentley Continental Flying Spur a "rebadged" Phaeton? Should we judge it as being a lesser vehicle because of its ancestry?"
....if i were a Bentley customer i would feel short changed. even if both the Phaeton and the Flying Spur were both judged as terrific vehicles. the price difference between the two would diminish the value and uniqueness of the Flying Spur. why pay more because it is a Bentley? when it is actually a VW. this is consistant to how i feel about many Lexus vehicles.
the links posted above are garbage and completely worthless. referencing recalls on commercially used vehicles is ridiculous. as for the family who died when they were rear ended......how is the car or MB at fault? this idiotic notion that MB's are less safe or so prone to failure that they endanger their occupants is laughable.
The family died after their E broke down...it was motionless on a bridge. We don't know why it broke down...possibly it was a flat tire. Or possibly it was a reliability issue.
this idiotic notion that MB's are less safe or so prone to failure that they endanger their occupants is laughable.
Tell that to the guy whose arm was ripped off when his MB's airbag failed to deploy. Think he's laughing? That case was found in a federal court to be MB's fault.
Maybe that's fair where you come from. On the planet where I'm from, in a Indy or F1 or any other sort of motorsport governed by rules, the cars are in a certain class and have to abide by very specific specs, such as engine displacement, to ensure a fair race. On the planet where I'm from, in olympic weightlifting there are rigid weight classes for the competitors, and 250 pound guys don't compete againt 200 pounders.
Go ahead, you're free to look at the 0-60 time of an S600 or S500 vs an LS430 and think that the S-Class somehow accelerates better than the LS.
If Lexus came out with a 7-liter V8, then according to you it would be perfectly fair to pit an LS700 against a S500, right?
there is no way anyone on this board can conclude that MB automobiles
are unsafe. if there were repeated instances of system failures then you
might have a an argument but with the idiotic links you provided all you
have proven is your obivious bias against Mercedes Benz automobiles.
i did some googling myself. here is a link that is interesting.
http://groups.msn.com/ToyotaOwnersUniteforResolution/mytoyotalemon1.msnw
i hardly feel it condemns Toyota and Lexus of rapant poor quality. it
only goes to show that every automaker....even Lexus has
there problems. not just with the product they sell but also
in how they service and treat their customers. no automaker is perfect.
Everything eventually breaks.
I've never sold a Benz to anyone who needed one. Wanted. Yes...
You're identifying a post YOU made three weeks ago, but then confronting me about a sweeping claim I made. If I made such a "sweeping claim" I must be losing it, because I don't remember making such a post as that. I'll be the first to admit how biased I am, but I'll reiterate that any mechanical or electrical item made by humans is prone to failure, albeit to different degrees, but I don't believe for one second that ANY car is genuinely bulletproof. (and any time a lawsuit is involved, with monetary awards, you've lost me already). The link says they settled before the case went to trial, and yet there was a monetary judgment against Daimler? That's confusing...
-C'mon...how about that S500 stat?
Got it. But haven't I admitted Mercedes' mistake before? I'm pretty sure I have, and I gave a detailed list of what I thought they were at the time no?
M
This is where you and I will have to agree to disagree because you keep mentioning one thing - hybrids. While being a major innovation, it is but one innovation.
"MB has more safety features but I have yet to see anyone convincingly demonstrate that this outweighs the safety impact of MB's reliability issues. For instance, how many people have died due to the SC's lack of rollbars, vs how many have died due to MB's brake reliability issues?"
I'm sorry this to be ridiculous because there is no widespread case of either MB's safety equipment not working or anyone getting killed by a Lexus not having a roll bar. The point is what at least Mercedes does have the safety equipment in place. Yes it works. You can find isolated incidents about any make or model under the sun, just like I did about the RX330 in a previous post. It is being investigated for brake failures. The fact remains airbags, roll over protections, ABS and others work as advertised almost all of the time, no car is perfect though. These things have been adopted by the entire industry, yet Mercedes is implied to be the only one that has a problem with them. There are other brands that score even worse in the precious surveys, yet I see no one here saying that their most basic safety equipment doesn't work. This is a bogus claim.
I meant 0-60 times in general, not the same old LS430 vs S430. I mean when one mentions cars like the E55 or SL55 and then we get the pointless gripes from the Lexus camp, yet when Lexus build a hi-po car it all becomes relevant because it will save some fuel. Very hypocritical imo.
Handling- yes it is better in a Benz, but I never said it was the ultimate thing, otherwise I'd want a BMW.
M
Then likewise this is a safety problem also:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?article_id=1966§ion_id=14&page_number=1
Looks like to me the oh-so perfect RX330 has the same problem.
About that broken down E-Class you wrote:
"The family died after their E broke down...it was motionless on a bridge. We don't know why it broke down...possibly it was a flat tire. Or possibly it was a reliability issue."
Then why are you hyping it up when you don't even know the full story? This is not usually your style of post. I can't believe you'd actually try to pass this off as some type of reliability issue without all the facts!
You and ljflx and others act as though Lexus is incapable of having a problem of any type. Yet Toyota recalled some vehicles in the same day.
"Can you respond with even ONE instance where the lack of rollbars on the SC, or the lack of rear door airbags on other Lexi, has resulted in a death or serious injury?"
Totally ridiculous. For one how is anyone to know that? You'd have to examine a far more serious accident to get the evidence on that - roll over protection. Secondly, no one (well at least I didn't) even suggested that a death would result from a Lexus not having a roll bar or side airbags, but I know which convertible I'd feel safer in. Survivial in roll over crash is already nill in a convertible so having some type, hell any type of roll over protection is better than none at all.
The point that tag_m5, I and others were trying to make is that having these things surely wouldn't hurt. You guys blast Mercedes and other German brands about their stereos/navs systems (trivial bs imo) because Lexus does these things better and because a Benz should be better at these things because of their prices right? Yet a 63K SC430 doesn't have a simple safety feature that 25K VW Beetle Convertible and every other German brand convertible on the market has - rollover protection. Amazing. If Mercedes didn't have a Nav system it would be seen as a major oversight right?
Classic case of a dismissal because Lexus doesn't offer the item in question.
M
So on balance you are talking about small numbers versus small numbers, and as a result I personally would not feel safer in an MB vs a Lexus....it is a question of the safety impact from reliability issues vs the safety impact from lack of incremental safety features. If someone could prove that MB's reliability issues occur only when the car is parked, and not moving, maybe I'd change my mind!
Even in my personal experience (2 Lexi and before that 1 Toyota) it hasn't been 100% trouble-free and the service experience hasn't been perfect. But it is precisely for that reason that I'll probably buy an LS not an S next...when problems do occur, I positively hate it, and statistically I can expect more problems from an S.
Why stop at 12 cylinders? If comparing a 5.0-liter or 6.0-liter car to a 4.3-liter car is apples to apples to you, why stop there? Why not compare Gulfstream's or Boeing's or Airbus's "best and biggest" against MB's? Doesn't that comparison prove that Gulfstream, Boeing, and Airbus are superior brands as compared to MB?
BTW the Ford GT does 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, faster than any MB...does that make Ford a superior brand compared to MB?
A much more germane question (though probably O/T) to ask is: Is a WRX 5 times better value, due to it's price to performance ratio vs the GT? :P
-airplanes??? C'mon...
-If toyota made an LS330, biggest car but with smallest available motor, that would be the car to compare to an S430. There are several ways to slice the cake, so again we can agree to disagree, b/c the scale and positioning of lexus' products is not always identical to mercedes anyway. I'll stand by my original rationale.
-This hybrid issue that you guys keep hammering on is nearly exhausted, for this thread.
-The initial claims of mpg had to be adjusted DOWN once these vehicles hit the market(prius)
-The premium price paid for these cars over a comparable gas burner takes years to pay for itself. If people are willing to wait for, pay a premium for, and in many cases pay additional dealer mark-up for a hybrid, they should really factor that into the cost-per-mile to drive these cars. It will take years longer to pay for itself.
High end luxury cars are about excess, indulgence, and vanity much more than they are about economy, so if you care about emissions ratings, or the novelty of it, that's one thing. But otherwise, if you're paying say $5k more for the engine,(a corolla would do just fine over a prius, they're about the same size, but the prius costs a lot more), no incentives on those cars to exploit, then the dealer marks it up another several hundred or thousand dollars because of the demand, how have you saved anything mpg-wise compared to the gas burner?
However your post seems to have missed the point that hybrid offers a simultaneous increase in economy and performance. Both hp and torque get bumped up, all while saving fuel....just try to name another recently-developed technology that does the same. For instance, Lexus rates the RX400h at 7.3 sec, 0-60, compared to 7.8 for the RX330. Car and Driver tested the 400h at 6.9 sec, so the actual improvement may be greater than Lexus suggests.
Couple that with the emissions reduction, further increases in gasoline prices (imho), expected cost reductions as hybrid technology matures, an eventual erosion in dealer markups, and further technology improvements (i.e., the LS600h should offer better performance improvements than the RX400h), and you will have a major major technology. There is a reason that car companies other than Honda and Toyota are falling all over themselves trying to address this technology.
-Where a hybrid drivetrain really matters in the current market, IMHO, is in for example the silverado full size truck. They really guzzle gas, and aren't regulated for emmissions, so they really need a solution such as this. These days, new cars burn very clean, and even though the hybrids are greener, I still question their tremendous leap in value given the spike in initial purchase cost.
Hybrid, as I've said before, is a major advance in the world of powertrains, and I don't mean for a second to dismiss it's merits. I just don't see how it continues to dominate the subject matter of a high-end luxury marques thread...
Like any new technology - price will decrease with volume. Using today's price differential in assessing the future is dead wrong. It's like thinking Intels current top of the line chip maintains the current price difference.
Just today I saw my first CLS500 on the road. Striking car, I must admit, but the low roofline and sloping coupe-like design and the high belt-line makes it a No-No in my book. I don't see this car succeeding in the NA market, but who knows ? OTOH, I saw the CLK55 today as well (lucky me there are so many rich folks out here in San Diego), and that car looked great, small and compact.
Current MBs are in general really beautiful cars. Its just a pity they have this reliability and quality issues hanging over them. All MBs, from C-class to S-class have pretty nice stance, with wider tires. The tires on the comparable Lexus cars are so wimpy. I mean, look at the 16" or 17" rims on the LS, and compared to the 17" on the E350, not even comparable.
I am already encouraged judging by the 2006 GS and IS twins that Lexus is giving us much better riding sedans, with nice 18" performance tire setup. Hopefully it migrates to the LS as well.
Funny how the MB website proclaims about the new-generation M-Class, "A New Era of Power Begins"...yet the 2006 ML350 still trails the archaic RX330 by .4 sec, 0-60, and the RX400h by .9 - 1.3 sec.
I always find it amusing when germancarfan "enthusiasts" downplay acceleration times. Somehow I imagine that if Lexus edged MB in handling, but trailed in 0-60 times, the germancarfans would be downplaying handling and emphasizing 0-60 times.
Do you sell MBs for a living? How do you sell your customers on an S430 instead of a S350, or a S500 instead of an S430, or an S600 instead of a S500? Adjusting for equipment other than the engine, MB is still asking for $thousands for each jump up, and $tens of thousands for the jump to the S600. Yet this is ok in your eyes (and I assume you do your best to encourage customers to pay up for the hp and torque)...and somehow its not ok to pay for the performance and fuel economy of a hybrid?
I'm not the type to pay msrp or higher and I won't be buying a hybrid until the next LS comes out, but hybrid is definitely worth some premium over a plain ICE...just as an S500 is worth more than an S430.
-first and foremost, make no assumptions about me based on the fact that I sell mercedes for a living. I've been biased towards this brand since I was 17 years old, I've been selling them for 5 years.
-the S350w hasn't actually hit the market yet, here in the states.
When a client I've never worked with before comes to me with their eyes on an S-class, I take them directly to my 430. I show them the car. They drive the car. If they want ALL the information, I give them all of it, but the car usually sells itself. If they say they want 27 more horses, nappa leather, BiXenons, and heated seats, I ask them if they think it's worth the extra $8-9k the factory charges for it, and if so, they can bump themselves up to the 500. Not fast enough? S55/65. Still need more balls? 600. I myself am not an excessive person, and most folks I work with find the 430 to be enough car.
-I tend to discourage people from purchasing the really big motor stuff, unless they're just gearheads who will buy it anyway. Unless you plan to keep those cars forever, you really take a bath on them in trade. A used S-class buyer is usually buying used b/c they can't afford new, and they won't be apt to pay the gap for the bigger motors, so the $1000's paid on the front are lost. And I make sure the prospect is well aware of that before I ask for the order.
-most of my work day consists of taking care of the clients I already have, not trying to "encourage customers to pay up."
-for the last time...it's not about 0-60 times, or handling, or stereo's. It's about the whole package, and whether that package meets your wants and needs most. I'd love to have a car that brought together the ride and style of a mercedes with the grip of the bimmer and the maytag reliability of the Japanese products, but from where I'm sitting that car does not exist, so...I have my favorite, and you have yours.
Are you the type that doesn't want to pay msrp, but when you come back for service expect to be treated like you did?
ljflx - I don't feel the least bit limited by product range by not having a hybrid to sell. Mercedes' diesel car is fast, quiet, efficient, and hardly costs more than its gasburner stablemate. SOME of the lux crowd is sure to get on board with hybrid, but not everyone. The luxury crowd is in a lot of flux right now, so for every driver I lose to the toyotas and hondas and nissans, I'm getting a lot of business from cadillac and bmw, some of whose core folks are getting run off by the changes they've made.
-oac...I'd love to talk about the 4-door porsche...
-mr. jones goes to the same lexus dealer, finds plenty of RX330's in stock, ready to deliver. Finds it costs less on the sticker. Finds the dealer very willing to negotiate the price. Was going to pay cash, until he learned that toyota credit is offering a very attractive rate. Drives home the same day with his RX330.
let's just say, by conservative estimates, that mr. smith payed $5k more than mr. jones, including higher rates, with the hopes of getting a more fuel efficient vehicle. At the end of the day smith has a car that looks the same, does the same things, carries the same amount of stuff. He crosses the finish line almost a FULL SECOND before jonesy, and left the air just slightly cleaner while doing so. Mr. smith is already $5k in the hole before he even goes for his first fillup, so assuming he gets 15%, maybe 20% better mpg than jones, he'll have to drive that 400 a long, long time before they break even.
-mr. jones goes into his mb dealer looking for an s430, and decides to add xenon lighting, nappa leather, and heated seats so that it is just like an s500 except for engine displacement. msrp, incuding $3020 of options: $80,990.
For only $5780, mr. smith gets to go an amazing 0.8 seconds faster than mr. jones, and has a '500' rather than '430' on the back of his car, to show off to the neighbors. But mr. smith uses more gasoline, not less, so he never breaks even...and in fact just keeps paying more and more for his 0.8 seconds, every time he visits the gas station. And he pollutes the environment more than mr. jones, not less.
Do you get it, now? Think of hybrid as offering the equivalent of a bigger engine or more cylinders. Unlike conventional ICE, where for a bigger engine you pay more up front and more over time (for gas), with hybrid you pay more up front but -eventually- recover that investment through gasoline savings.
it seems to me that comparing a long wheel base S class that is available with 4 different engines, awd or rwd to a short wheel base ,one engine, one drive train Lexus is a bit of self serving. the Lexus myopic should be asking themselves why isn't AWD, LWB, or the choice of different engines available in the car they so love much by the company they so dutifly follow? say what you will about MB quality(because i know you will!) but at least they offer the upscale buyer numerous choices. many of you want to think that comparing the LS430 to the S's, 7's, Jags, and A8's is an equal comparison but it is not. the Germans and the Brits offer many more configurations and options which in the end affect the selling price. no matter what anyone will post on this board....it is all about price and what people can afford. the people who purchase the LS430 think they are getting the equivalent of the German offerings when in the end they are buying a nice car that fit their budget. PRICE is everything.
same is true when it comes to the hybrids but for different reasons. when it comes to the hybrids it is about the simple economics of the price of gasoline, the miles you will drive, and extra cost of the hybrid vehicle. this differs from the vehicles in the topic of this thread because the RX hybrid and non hybrid are the exact same vehicle...no differences in size, ability, and utility. the cost difference between the two RX's should be scrutinized by each individual buyer to see if the hybrid warrants the price difference. you have to drive a lot of miles to make up the price gap.
so compare the S430 to the LS 430 and try to convince yourselves that it is an equal comparison to justify your purchase but realize this.....even the lowest price S is a larger more comfortable automobile with the availability of having AWD if you wish as a no cost option. so when you go" to show off to the neighbors" your new S.....let them know about all of the choices that MB made available to you and why the car you purchased fit your needs exactly. then ask yourself....why do so many people who drive Lexus vehicles have the distorted and bitter view that people who drive MB's only do it so they can "show off to the neighbors"? it sounds like envy and maybe some projection taking place.
Kdshapiro Thanks for the link. Perhaps there is historical conflict on the origins of hybrid cars. Indeed, web info cannot always be trusted. Also, maybe the pundits question the exact nature of the technology. Anyway, here are some references for Ferdinand Porsche as the alleged "first" to develop a hybrid auto in collaboration with the Jacob Lohner company which was Austrian.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/10/porsche_conside.html
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/tw/hybrid-history.htm
And here is the hybrid 1900 Lohner-Porsche which predates the Piper patent. The electric motors are integrated in the wheel hubs.
The Porsche vehicle may have been "first" in the world.
But at any rate we are seeing that either the Germans or Americans pioneered hybrid vehicles a 105 years ago, but the Japanese re-decided it was an idea whose time has come.
I'm with Stroudman on this. Hybrid is not having your cake and eating it to. Hybrid is pay more, have marginally more cake with less calories. You could take the same 5-10K premium and dump a supercharger and other performance mods into your vehicle. This way you can have the whole pie.
Let me deal with the logic item:
MB charges 9K more for an S500 than for an S430. The S500 throws in about $3000 of optional items that the S430 lacks and the rest is for a 28HP bump. So you're out $6000 for that more powerful engine. Now Lexus comes along and gives you a new technology that gives you a greater HP bump than that S500 increment plus a lot better gas mileage and less polution. The cost is also less than you would pay for the bump from an S430 to an S500. Yet the Lexus hybrid buyer needs to do a break-even calc on the added cost?? As if gas mileage is the ony thing he is getting. Tell me - what does the S500 buyer do - see a pyschiatrist?? He just paid a lot more for a lot less than any Lexus hybrid buyer ever will.
As for all these firsts - who cares. Some of these lead times are 6-12 months or less usually debuting only with a new model. You can't handle the hybrid but in any business the most important item to be first on is a ground breaking new technology. That's the big dollar item. The rest of the stuff is pennies. Who originally thought it up is meaningless. Who brings it to market successfully is what counts - in any business. Sooner or later everyone offers the new technology - whether they are the groundbreaking dollar ones or the ho hum penny ones - and buyers couldn't give a damm who was first. But that groundbreaking technology lead will bring a bump in customers and that bump is usually permanent if the cars continue to be made as well as Toyota, Lexus and Honda make them.
YES...I expect to get the best price on my car and the absolute best service...I am shocked to learn that some customers are discriminated against at the Mercedes Dealership...
HE HAS, No $80,000....No pretty car to drive....But no problem...His neighbor has a clean burning, hybrid LS, Great Gas milage ...A very Green car...With a tremendous sound system, and ultra comfort, And it always works...
Like all Lexus owners, he is also very nice and willing to give Mr. Smith a Ride to work whenever he needs it.
Do you want to be Mr. Smith or his neighbor.
-boy, are there some double standards around here...
Two things.... the most expensive Mercedes S is not as reliable as the LS 430, and the cheapest S class is more expensive then an LS ultra...and not nearly as reliable or Green.....or as fast for that matter...Nor does it have the luxury features of an LS ...And it may not even be as safe because they don't put all their safety features into it and the safety features they do put in...LIKE BREAKS...sometimes don't work properly.
Food for thought.
I do, they changed the world like the old AT&T and made billions from it. Do my kids who use an HP computer care? Probably not.
Two things.... the most expensive Mercedes S is not as reliable as the LS 430
So what? A $70K Rolex is not as reliable as a Timex. With a hybrid one is paying for technology costs and they know it. People see two identical vehicles, one with a hybrid drivetrain and one without. There is a marginal gain for a lot of money. Similiary to the S430 and S500. Marginal gain for a lot of money. People will buy it because they can, not because the difference is anything meaningful. But don't try to tell someone buying a hybrid is a performance upgrade and gas saver at the same time. Not if I have to spend $5K to save 500 dollars worth of gas.
People will buy it because it's the latest and greatest thing. In the lux goods arena that has an even greater weighting. The fact that it keeps the air cleaner, gets better mileage and adds power are added benefits. If we equated the cost of these cars to lesser cars the way you want to equate a gas to a hybrid engine then none of these marquee names would exist. On top of all that you are caught up on the thought that the hybrid will always be a $3-4K higher cost. Give it a year or two and it will be less than $1500. When it gets to that point everyone, well almost everyone, will want it.