High End Luxury Cars

stroudman · March 2005

"...or add more useless gears to their automatic transmissions."

If I recall correctly, when Lexus did a face-lift of the LS about two years or so ago, I believe they added a 6-speed auto to the drivetrain, which was at or near the same time (maybe sooner) Benz introduced their 7-speed.

syswei- I do think the conti spur is a rebadged phaeton. I think any time a car is sharing parts from another brand, it takes away from what makes a premium or super premium car special, whether it's the example given, or a volvo S40/mazda3/ford focus. I couldn't own the bently without thinking about the fact that a similar car (DNA-wise) flies a VW from the front of it. BMW (except for the RR/7) and Mercedes-benz still build their own car. I am well aware that the chrysler crossfire is a 170 SLK, and the 300/magnum are using some components from the 210 E-class, but that's only because mercedes isn't selling those cars anymore.

syswei · March 2005

I guess I can see your point of view on rebadging...you seem to be saying that feeling you've bought something unique is important to you. I guess on this issue (like many other issues discussed) it is a personal preference. My own personal preference is more along the lines of what a car IS or OFFERS rather than how unique it is. To each his own.

footie · March 2005

Yep,

MB added another gear, going to 7 in 2004, when Lexus added another going to 6.

I heard someone say comically that Mercedes did it for redundancy reasons, so you'd have 6 when one wasn't working for some reason ;=).

ljflx · March 2005

"Mercedes chief Eckhard Cordes, who said earlier this year that his drive to resolve the quality problems would hit this year's earnings, said the cars Mercedes makes now are of high quality and that the recall addressed legacy problems."

This is one of the worst PR insertions I have ever seen. I could have a field day with this one - it's that bad, but I'll keep it simple.

In effect it says - "So let's see - you dropped $90K on one of our cars before my watch. Too bad - you bought one of our problem legacy cars. We make them a lot better today now that I am in charge. But rest assured I will repair your legacy car to the standards we now have in place - but only if they force me to recall them. But don't worry - when you buy a new Mercedes it will be built to the standards that your old car should have been. Trust me it will never happen again as we have completely fixed all the problems we had." Yeah, right!

Man - if I dropped $50-100K on an MB in the past few years and read I had a legacy problem of theirs on my hands and in my garage I'd be one P'D off customer. I had hopes for this guy but he comes across just as arrogant and ignorant of his customers as the others. Who the heck is in charge of MB public relations? When will MB ever get it??

syswei · March 2005

Well this is only the opinion of 1 magazine, but the May issue of Automobile puts 8 sports sedans to the test...top 3 according to them were 1. A6 4.2, 2. GS430, 3. E500...ahead of the 545i and M45. About the GS they wrote that it "drives with captivating enthusiasm. The GS should finally get Lexus the respect that it deserves"....lets see if it gets any respect from the germancarfans.

garyh1 · March 2005

Are you sure you weren't reading the article backwards-- or at least the chart upside down????

stroudman · March 2005

- since some of us like to split hairs 'round heah, let's pat Mark Levinson on the back for his stereos, not Toyota. They are fabulous sound systems, indeed, but...(I gotta say) the Harmon Kardon systems in the benz cars ain't chopped liver, either.

-syswei - since you guys are so google-rific, I would LOVE to hear of one case of death inside a Mercedes-Benz automobile where SBC was the cause of an accident, and failed to protect it's occupants. Haven't heard of one.

-If you're going to compare an LS sedan and an S-class sedan in a 0-60 drag race, the fair comparison would be lexus' biggest car, with it's biggest engine vs. benz' biggest car with it's biggest engine... flagship vs. flagship, right? Let's hedge it a bit and keep it to 8 normally aspirated cylinders though, to be "fair." Now, what was that S500 stat?

-Hybrids, hybrids, hybrids, that's great if you like granola, but you can't just beat this one thing to death....what else you got??? A rear-view video camera.

syswei · March 2005

Here is a post I made from 3 weeks ago:

Mercedes' "reliability problems" are nothing more than electrical quirks and other minor things anywayitems of importance have proven to be rock solidAll of the safety systems introduced by the Germans have worked flawlessly from day one.

Care to back your sweeping claim up with some proof? When a claim is that broad it only takes an anecdote or two for me to prove you wrong.

Like the MB manufacturing defect that caused brake failure and at least one death:
http://english.people.com.cn/200205/24/eng20020524_96350.shtml

Or the failure of a brand new Ss airbag to deploy, costing the driver his left arm:
http://www.injuryboard.com/view.cfm/Article=1371

Or the family that met its death after their MB broke down and they were rear-ended by a truck:
http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/3709872/detail.html
(though in fairness we arent told why the MB was disabledpossibly it was a flat or something unrelated to reliability)

And as for your claim that MBs brake reliability issues (reported in CR) were just due to excessive pad wear and had nothing to do with safety:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/mercedes_recall.html
the article suggested that 1300 or so MBs required greater than normal distances and greater than normal force applied in order to stop. Doesnt that mean safety to you?

syswei · March 2005

I think I've shown that MB's reliability issues can indeed become safety issues.

Can you respond with even ONE instance where the lack of rollbars on the SC, or the lack of rear door airbags on other Lexi, has resulted in a death or serious injury?

denaliinpa · March 2005

consumer reports finally responded to my question regarding sample size.
in the email they sent me they said they use a minimum sample size
of 100 responses.

"I see you haven't let go of the "rebadging" theme. Let me ask you, is the Bentley Continental Flying Spur a "rebadged" Phaeton? Should we judge it as being a lesser vehicle because of its ancestry?"
....if i were a Bentley customer i would feel short changed. even if both the Phaeton and the Flying Spur were both judged as terrific vehicles. the price difference between the two would diminish the value and uniqueness of the Flying Spur. why pay more because it is a Bentley? when it is actually a VW. this is consistant to how i feel about many Lexus vehicles.

the links posted above are garbage and completely worthless. referencing recalls on commercially used vehicles is ridiculous. as for the family who died when they were rear ended......how is the car or MB at fault? this idiotic notion that MB's are less safe or so prone to failure that they endanger their occupants is laughable.

syswei · March 2005

as for the family who died when they were rear ended......how is the car or MB at fault?

The family died after their E broke down...it was motionless on a bridge. We don't know why it broke down...possibly it was a flat tire. Or possibly it was a reliability issue.

this idiotic notion that MB's are less safe or so prone to failure that they endanger their occupants is laughable.

Tell that to the guy whose arm was ripped off when his MB's airbag failed to deploy. Think he's laughing? That case was found in a federal court to be MB's fault.

syswei · March 2005

-If you're going to compare an LS sedan and an S-class sedan in a 0-60 drag race, the fair comparison would be lexus' biggest car, with it's biggest engine vs. benz' biggest car with it's biggest engine... flagship vs. flagship, right? Let's hedge it a bit and keep it to 8 normally aspirated cylinders though, to be "fair." Now, what was that S500 stat?

Maybe that's fair where you come from. On the planet where I'm from, in a Indy or F1 or any other sort of motorsport governed by rules, the cars are in a certain class and have to abide by very specific specs, such as engine displacement, to ensure a fair race. On the planet where I'm from, in olympic weightlifting there are rigid weight classes for the competitors, and 250 pound guys don't compete againt 200 pounders.

Go ahead, you're free to look at the 0-60 time of an S600 or S500 vs an LS430 and think that the S-Class somehow accelerates better than the LS.

If Lexus came out with a 7-liter V8, then according to you it would be perfectly fair to pit an LS700 against a S500, right?

denaliinpa · March 2005

like i said earlier....pure nonsense. from the information you provided
there is no way anyone on this board can conclude that MB automobiles
are unsafe. if there were repeated instances of system failures then you
might have a an argument but with the idiotic links you provided all you
have proven is your obivious bias against Mercedes Benz automobiles.

i did some googling myself. here is a link that is interesting.

http://groups.msn.com/ToyotaOwnersUniteforResolution/mytoyotalemon1.msnw

i hardly feel it condemns Toyota and Lexus of rapant poor quality. it
only goes to show that every automaker....even Lexus has
there problems. not just with the product they sell but also
in how they service and treat their customers. no automaker is perfect.

ljflx · March 2005

I wouldn't defend MB too much on a day that 1.3mln cars are recalled for some apparently serious issues. Better to let it pass off for awhile as the news speaks a lot more volume than anything you can post. It's a bit ironic that this news happens at the same time that Kia and Hyundai announce recalls.

stroudman · March 2005

Never made an accusation against toyota, the sc, or lack of rear airbags. If you search far and wide enough, you will find failures in anything built by humans. I would be surprised if there weren't a single failure or mishap involving a Benz car through the ages. Buy an armored car if you want to get past that. Never made a case about excessive pad wear on the brakes...must've been someone else. The recall everyone is clamoring about involves cars with the sensotronic brake control system, a bosch product. Longer, more strenuous braking distances notwithstanding, is there a reliable story about SBC and its issues contributing to the death of the occupant of a mercedes-benz vehicle?

Everything eventually breaks.

I've never sold a Benz to anyone who needed one. Wanted. Yes...

You're identifying a post YOU made three weeks ago, but then confronting me about a sweeping claim I made. If I made such a "sweeping claim" I must be losing it, because I don't remember making such a post as that. I'll be the first to admit how biased I am, but I'll reiterate that any mechanical or electrical item made by humans is prone to failure, albeit to different degrees, but I don't believe for one second that ANY car is genuinely bulletproof. (and any time a lawsuit is involved, with monetary awards, you've lost me already). The link says they settled before the case went to trial, and yet there was a monetary judgment against Daimler? That's confusing...

-C'mon...how about that S500 stat?

stroudman · March 2005

Not a good analogy. On the planet I'm from, motorsport racing is about the mental skill and experience of several drivers, using tempered, equally powered vehicles in order to determine a winner without an advantage in gear. This is a mostly subjective discussion about brands, and which brand is deemed superior. Again, if you wish to pit lexus against mercedes, biggest against biggest, then it would really be ls430, toyota's biggest car, with the biggest motor it can offer, against the same from the benz brand. In that case, it would be the 12 cylinder. Oh, that's right, toyota doesn't offer a specialized tuner division where one person builds the engine start to finish to appeal to a small group of folks who like that sort of thing. So the liberal side of me felt I should make it V8's.(no good deed goes unpunished). If toyota suddenly became really dumb and built a 7 liter V8, and it beat the S500 in a 0-60, then good for them. If that's the biggest motor they offer, Godspeed!

merc1 · March 2005

"I wasn't referring to the copying - I was referring to the last part of the sentence"

Got it. But haven't I admitted Mercedes' mistake before? I'm pretty sure I have, and I gave a detailed list of what I thought they were at the time no?

M

merc1 · April 2005

"MB has certainly innovated in 120 years far more than Lexus has in 15. The more relevant question imho is how innovation compares over the past 5, 10, or 15 years, and given the importance of hybrid to the industry the answer is less clear."

This is where you and I will have to agree to disagree because you keep mentioning one thing - hybrids. While being a major innovation, it is but one innovation.

"MB has more safety features but I have yet to see anyone convincingly demonstrate that this outweighs the safety impact of MB's reliability issues. For instance, how many people have died due to the SC's lack of rollbars, vs how many have died due to MB's brake reliability issues?"

I'm sorry this to be ridiculous because there is no widespread case of either MB's safety equipment not working or anyone getting killed by a Lexus not having a roll bar. The point is what at least Mercedes does have the safety equipment in place. Yes it works. You can find isolated incidents about any make or model under the sun, just like I did about the RX330 in a previous post. It is being investigated for brake failures. The fact remains airbags, roll over protections, ABS and others work as advertised almost all of the time, no car is perfect though. These things have been adopted by the entire industry, yet Mercedes is implied to be the only one that has a problem with them. There are other brands that score even worse in the precious surveys, yet I see no one here saying that their most basic safety equipment doesn't work. This is a bogus claim.

I meant 0-60 times in general, not the same old LS430 vs S430. I mean when one mentions cars like the E55 or SL55 and then we get the pointless gripes from the Lexus camp, yet when Lexus build a hi-po car it all becomes relevant because it will save some fuel. Very hypocritical imo.

Handling- yes it is better in a Benz, but I never said it was the ultimate thing, otherwise I'd want a BMW.

M

merc1 · April 2005

"the article suggested that 1300 or so MBs required greater than normal distances and greater than normal force applied in order to stop. Doesnt that mean safety to you?"

Then likewise this is a safety problem also:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?article_id=1966&section_id=14&page_number=1

Looks like to me the oh-so perfect RX330 has the same problem.

About that broken down E-Class you wrote:

"The family died after their E broke down...it was motionless on a bridge. We don't know why it broke down...possibly it was a flat tire. Or possibly it was a reliability issue."

Then why are you hyping it up when you don't even know the full story? This is not usually your style of post. I can't believe you'd actually try to pass this off as some type of reliability issue without all the facts!

You and ljflx and others act as though Lexus is incapable of having a problem of any type. Yet Toyota recalled some vehicles in the same day.

"Can you respond with even ONE instance where the lack of rollbars on the SC, or the lack of rear door airbags on other Lexi, has resulted in a death or serious injury?"

Totally ridiculous. For one how is anyone to know that? You'd have to examine a far more serious accident to get the evidence on that - roll over protection. Secondly, no one (well at least I didn't) even suggested that a death would result from a Lexus not having a roll bar or side airbags, but I know which convertible I'd feel safer in. Survivial in roll over crash is already nill in a convertible so having some type, hell any type of roll over protection is better than none at all.

The point that tag_m5, I and others were trying to make is that having these things surely wouldn't hurt. You guys blast Mercedes and other German brands about their stereos/navs systems (trivial bs imo) because Lexus does these things better and because a Benz should be better at these things because of their prices right? Yet a 63K SC430 doesn't have a simple safety feature that 25K VW Beetle Convertible and every other German brand convertible on the market has - rollover protection. Amazing. If Mercedes didn't have a Nav system it would be seen as a major oversight right?

Classic case of a dismissal because Lexus doesn't offer the item in question.

M

syswei · April 2005

My point isn't that thousands of people have died because of MB reliability issues. Surely the number is very small. The point is that the safety items that Lexus lacks are essentially at the periphery (i.e., that 9th airbag isn't as important as the 1st or 2nd airbag), and the number of people that have died as a result of the lack of such items is also likely very small (and could even be zero). I mean, how many SCs even get into rollover accidents?

So on balance you are talking about small numbers versus small numbers, and as a result I personally would not feel safer in an MB vs a Lexus....it is a question of the safety impact from reliability issues vs the safety impact from lack of incremental safety features. If someone could prove that MB's reliability issues occur only when the car is parked, and not moving, maybe I'd change my mind!

syswei · April 2005

My apologies, I should have made clear that the post was simply copied and pasted from the earlier post, and that the earlier post was not directed at you.

syswei · April 2005

I have never claimed that Lexi are 100% problem free, and it is clear from the "precious surveys" that they aren't. They only have fewer problems than MBs.

Even in my personal experience (2 Lexi and before that 1 Toyota) it hasn't been 100% trouble-free and the service experience hasn't been perfect. But it is precisely for that reason that I'll probably buy an LS not an S next...when problems do occur, I positively hate it, and statistically I can expect more problems from an S.

syswei · April 2005

WSJ notes that in 2004, "provisions for addressing quality problems with delivered cars" cost MB $1.55 billion. Wonder if that might effect R&D budgets?

ljflx · April 2005

MB finance is also getting killed because a high majority of leased cars aren't worth what lease residuals assumed and the weakness of the dollar makes them worth even less. You can trace the first one to two things - trying to uphold MSRP as high as possible and to the reliability issues. Lease folks are fine because they avoided the risk and buyers who hold the cars are fine. But anyone selling after 3 or 4 years will take a hit and will have paid the freight for MB.

syswei · April 2005

This is a mostly subjective discussion about brands, and which brand is deemed superior. Again, if you wish to pit lexus against mercedes, biggest against biggest, then it would really be ls430, toyota's biggest car, with the biggest motor it can offer, against the same from the benz brand. In that case, it would be the 12 cylinder.

Why stop at 12 cylinders? If comparing a 5.0-liter or 6.0-liter car to a 4.3-liter car is apples to apples to you, why stop there? Why not compare Gulfstream's or Boeing's or Airbus's "best and biggest" against MB's? Doesn't that comparison prove that Gulfstream, Boeing, and Airbus are superior brands as compared to MB?

BTW the Ford GT does 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, faster than any MB...does that make Ford a superior brand compared to MB?

kdshapiro · April 2005

"BTW the Ford GT does 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, faster than any MB...does that make Ford a superior brand compared to MB?"

A much more germane question (though probably O/T) to ask is: Is a WRX 5 times better value, due to it's price to performance ratio vs the GT? :P

stroudman · April 2005

You can make this discussion as broad as you wish, but I would imagine sooner or later a host is going to bust in and put us back on track. I thought this was a thread focused on high luxury marques(cars). The GT is an exotic sports car, but if you want to make it part of the discussion, that's fine. I'd still prefer the SL, because it still has a luxury element to it, and is a practical, daily driver to a much larger degree. Faster isn't necessarily better. And in making the case with S vs. LS for 0-60 times, I'm not trying to make that point, although I do believe if all you do is drive in a straight line and want complete isolation from the road, the LS is the car to do it in.

-airplanes??? C'mon...

-If toyota made an LS330, biggest car but with smallest available motor, that would be the car to compare to an S430. There are several ways to slice the cake, so again we can agree to disagree, b/c the scale and positioning of lexus' products is not always identical to mercedes anyway. I'll stand by my original rationale.

syswei · April 2005

My point was that your rationale makes no sense...it is a rationalization contrived because you are desparate to show MB in a better light. You have 2 cars that are both available with 4.3 liter engines...isn't that the fairest comparison? Because if you think that it is somehow more fair to compare a 4.3 to a 5.0 (rather than 4.3 vs 4.3), you might as well go compare the car to an airplane.

syswei · April 2005

So when Porsche comes out with hybrid vehicles based on Toyota technology, I guess you guys won't consider them because of the Toyota (yuck!) heritage...

syswei · April 2005

The new issue of Automobile mentioned that the Toyota dealers they've spoken with have received cash deposits for 2 to 3 years worth of hybrid Highlander deliveries. They predict that the Highlander hybrid will be an even hotter ticket than the RX400h....cost difference is about 10k.

stroudman · April 2005

Yes, if a porsche hits the market with a toyota derived engine, I personally won't view it in quite the same light. My feelings towards toyota aren't 'yuck.' I think toyota makes a fine product that fulfills a need in the market.

-This hybrid issue that you guys keep hammering on is nearly exhausted, for this thread.

-The initial claims of mpg had to be adjusted DOWN once these vehicles hit the market(prius)

-The premium price paid for these cars over a comparable gas burner takes years to pay for itself. If people are willing to wait for, pay a premium for, and in many cases pay additional dealer mark-up for a hybrid, they should really factor that into the cost-per-mile to drive these cars. It will take years longer to pay for itself.

High end luxury cars are about excess, indulgence, and vanity much more than they are about economy, so if you care about emissions ratings, or the novelty of it, that's one thing. But otherwise, if you're paying say $5k more for the engine,(a corolla would do just fine over a prius, they're about the same size, but the prius costs a lot more), no incentives on those cars to exploit, then the dealer marks it up another several hundred or thousand dollars because of the demand, how have you saved anything mpg-wise compared to the gas burner?

syswei · April 2005

What you're saying about the EPA mpg figures is correct and also well-known. In fact Lexus wanted to put lower figures in their ads but EPA rules don't allow for that.

However your post seems to have missed the point that hybrid offers a simultaneous increase in economy and performance. Both hp and torque get bumped up, all while saving fuel....just try to name another recently-developed technology that does the same. For instance, Lexus rates the RX400h at 7.3 sec, 0-60, compared to 7.8 for the RX330. Car and Driver tested the 400h at 6.9 sec, so the actual improvement may be greater than Lexus suggests.

Couple that with the emissions reduction, further increases in gasoline prices (imho), expected cost reductions as hybrid technology matures, an eventual erosion in dealer markups, and further technology improvements (i.e., the LS600h should offer better performance improvements than the RX400h), and you will have a major major technology. There is a reason that car companies other than Honda and Toyota are falling all over themselves trying to address this technology.

stroudman · April 2005

My point is exactly that...queing up to a long waiting list, and paying a lot more money for a vehicle that is .5 - .9 seconds faster than it's more archaic clone is not a value to me. Also, I'm sure the 330 drivetrain probably carries an ULE rating already, since it is not considered a light truck, but I'm not positive about that.

-Where a hybrid drivetrain really matters in the current market, IMHO, is in for example the silverado full size truck. They really guzzle gas, and aren't regulated for emmissions, so they really need a solution such as this. These days, new cars burn very clean, and even though the hybrids are greener, I still question their tremendous leap in value given the spike in initial purchase cost.

Hybrid, as I've said before, is a major advance in the world of powertrains, and I don't mean for a second to dismiss it's merits. I just don't see how it continues to dominate the subject matter of a high-end luxury marques thread...

ljflx · April 2005

I'd say the same thing if I had no hybrids to sell. But I think you miss the headline story - that being more power, better fuel economy, newer technology, greener car. You don't think that is going to excite the lux crowd? You've got to be kidding.

Like any new technology - price will decrease with volume. Using today's price differential in assessing the future is dead wrong. It's like thinking Intels current top of the line chip maintains the current price difference.

oac · April 2005

Posted by Designman in post #xxxx seemed like ages ago now.... BTW, designman, I am still researching my answers to yours. Just don't want to give you off the cuff remarks, since yours is always very thoughtful and deserves as much in response.

Just today I saw my first CLS500 on the road. Striking car, I must admit, but the low roofline and sloping coupe-like design and the high belt-line makes it a No-No in my book. I don't see this car succeeding in the NA market, but who knows ? OTOH, I saw the CLK55 today as well (lucky me there are so many rich folks out here in San Diego), and that car looked great, small and compact.

Current MBs are in general really beautiful cars. Its just a pity they have this reliability and quality issues hanging over them. All MBs, from C-class to S-class have pretty nice stance, with wider tires. The tires on the comparable Lexus cars are so wimpy. I mean, look at the 16" or 17" rims on the LS, and compared to the 17" on the E350, not even comparable.

I am already encouraged judging by the 2006 GS and IS twins that Lexus is giving us much better riding sedans, with nice 18" performance tire setup. Hopefully it migrates to the LS as well.

syswei · April 2005

paying a lot more money for a vehicle that is .5 - .9 seconds faster than it's more archaic clone is not a value to me

Funny how the MB website proclaims about the new-generation M-Class, "A New Era of Power Begins"...yet the 2006 ML350 still trails the archaic RX330 by .4 sec, 0-60, and the RX400h by .9 - 1.3 sec.

I always find it amusing when germancarfan "enthusiasts" downplay acceleration times. Somehow I imagine that if Lexus edged MB in handling, but trailed in 0-60 times, the germancarfans would be downplaying handling and emphasizing 0-60 times.

Do you sell MBs for a living? How do you sell your customers on an S430 instead of a S350, or a S500 instead of an S430, or an S600 instead of a S500? Adjusting for equipment other than the engine, MB is still asking for $thousands for each jump up, and $tens of thousands for the jump to the S600. Yet this is ok in your eyes (and I assume you do your best to encourage customers to pay up for the hp and torque)...and somehow its not ok to pay for the performance and fuel economy of a hybrid?

I'm not the type to pay msrp or higher and I won't be buying a hybrid until the next LS comes out, but hybrid is definitely worth some premium over a plain ICE...just as an S500 is worth more than an S430.

stroudman · April 2005

sigh......

-first and foremost, make no assumptions about me based on the fact that I sell mercedes for a living. I've been biased towards this brand since I was 17 years old, I've been selling them for 5 years.

-the S350w hasn't actually hit the market yet, here in the states.

When a client I've never worked with before comes to me with their eyes on an S-class, I take them directly to my 430. I show them the car. They drive the car. If they want ALL the information, I give them all of it, but the car usually sells itself. If they say they want 27 more horses, nappa leather, BiXenons, and heated seats, I ask them if they think it's worth the extra $8-9k the factory charges for it, and if so, they can bump themselves up to the 500. Not fast enough? S55/65. Still need more balls? 600. I myself am not an excessive person, and most folks I work with find the 430 to be enough car.

-I tend to discourage people from purchasing the really big motor stuff, unless they're just gearheads who will buy it anyway. Unless you plan to keep those cars forever, you really take a bath on them in trade. A used S-class buyer is usually buying used b/c they can't afford new, and they won't be apt to pay the gap for the bigger motors, so the $1000's paid on the front are lost. And I make sure the prospect is well aware of that before I ask for the order.

-most of my work day consists of taking care of the clients I already have, not trying to "encourage customers to pay up."

-for the last time...it's not about 0-60 times, or handling, or stereo's. It's about the whole package, and whether that package meets your wants and needs most. I'd love to have a car that brought together the ride and style of a mercedes with the grip of the bimmer and the maytag reliability of the Japanese products, but from where I'm sitting that car does not exist, so...I have my favorite, and you have yours.

Are you the type that doesn't want to pay msrp, but when you come back for service expect to be treated like you did?

ljflx - I don't feel the least bit limited by product range by not having a hybrid to sell. Mercedes' diesel car is fast, quiet, efficient, and hardly costs more than its gasburner stablemate. SOME of the lux crowd is sure to get on board with hybrid, but not everyone. The luxury crowd is in a lot of flux right now, so for every driver I lose to the toyotas and hondas and nissans, I'm getting a lot of business from cadillac and bmw, some of whose core folks are getting run off by the changes they've made.

-oac...I'd love to talk about the 4-door porsche...

stroudman · April 2005

-mr. smith goes to his lexus dealer, puts down his deposit on an RX400. The lexus dealer immediately begins earning interest on mr. smith's cash. Let's say he's near the middle of the pack, so he can expect to get his car in 18 months. That's 18 months that the lexus dealer runs the juice on his money. When his RX400 is delivered he pays a non-negotiable msrp, standard rates if he finances, and quite possibly a dealer markup. But it's worth it for all that gas money he'll save, says he.

-mr. jones goes to the same lexus dealer, finds plenty of RX330's in stock, ready to deliver. Finds it costs less on the sticker. Finds the dealer very willing to negotiate the price. Was going to pay cash, until he learned that toyota credit is offering a very attractive rate. Drives home the same day with his RX330.

let's just say, by conservative estimates, that mr. smith payed $5k more than mr. jones, including higher rates, with the hopes of getting a more fuel efficient vehicle. At the end of the day smith has a car that looks the same, does the same things, carries the same amount of stuff. He crosses the finish line almost a FULL SECOND before jonesy, and left the air just slightly cleaner while doing so. Mr. smith is already $5k in the hole before he even goes for his first fillup, so assuming he gets 15%, maybe 20% better mpg than jones, he'll have to drive that 400 a long, long time before they break even.

syswei · April 2005

-mr. smith goes into his mb dealer and buys an s500. msrp: $86,770.

-mr. jones goes into his mb dealer looking for an s430, and decides to add xenon lighting, nappa leather, and heated seats so that it is just like an s500 except for engine displacement. msrp, incuding $3020 of options: $80,990.

For only $5780, mr. smith gets to go an amazing 0.8 seconds faster than mr. jones, and has a '500' rather than '430' on the back of his car, to show off to the neighbors. But mr. smith uses more gasoline, not less, so he never breaks even...and in fact just keeps paying more and more for his 0.8 seconds, every time he visits the gas station. And he pollutes the environment more than mr. jones, not less.

Do you get it, now? Think of hybrid as offering the equivalent of a bigger engine or more cylinders. Unlike conventional ICE, where for a bigger engine you pay more up front and more over time (for gas), with hybrid you pay more up front but -eventually- recover that investment through gasoline savings.

denaliinpa · April 2005

it is really not that amazing that the one contribution(hybrid advancement) to the automobile that Toyota Motor Company is given credit for is the only one the Lexus crowd wishes to talk about.

it seems to me that comparing a long wheel base S class that is available with 4 different engines, awd or rwd to a short wheel base ,one engine, one drive train Lexus is a bit of self serving. the Lexus myopic should be asking themselves why isn't AWD, LWB, or the choice of different engines available in the car they so love much by the company they so dutifly follow? say what you will about MB quality(because i know you will!) but at least they offer the upscale buyer numerous choices. many of you want to think that comparing the LS430 to the S's, 7's, Jags, and A8's is an equal comparison but it is not. the Germans and the Brits offer many more configurations and options which in the end affect the selling price. no matter what anyone will post on this board....it is all about price and what people can afford. the people who purchase the LS430 think they are getting the equivalent of the German offerings when in the end they are buying a nice car that fit their budget. PRICE is everything.

same is true when it comes to the hybrids but for different reasons. when it comes to the hybrids it is about the simple economics of the price of gasoline, the miles you will drive, and extra cost of the hybrid vehicle. this differs from the vehicles in the topic of this thread because the RX hybrid and non hybrid are the exact same vehicle...no differences in size, ability, and utility. the cost difference between the two RX's should be scrutinized by each individual buyer to see if the hybrid warrants the price difference. you have to drive a lot of miles to make up the price gap.

so compare the S430 to the LS 430 and try to convince yourselves that it is an equal comparison to justify your purchase but realize this.....even the lowest price S is a larger more comfortable automobile with the availability of having AWD if you wish as a no cost option. so when you go" to show off to the neighbors" your new S.....let them know about all of the choices that MB made available to you and why the car you purchased fit your needs exactly. then ask yourself....why do so many people who drive Lexus vehicles have the distorted and bitter view that people who drive MB's only do it so they can "show off to the neighbors"? it sounds like envy and maybe some projection taking place.

designman · April 2005

Oac thanks partner.

Kdshapiro Thanks for the link. Perhaps there is historical conflict on the origins of hybrid cars. Indeed, web info cannot always be trusted. Also, maybe the pundits question the exact nature of the technology. Anyway, here are some references for Ferdinand Porsche as the alleged "first" to develop a hybrid auto in collaboration with the Jacob Lohner company which was Austrian.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/10/porsche_conside.html

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/tw/hybrid-history.htm

And here is the hybrid 1900 Lohner-Porsche which predates the Piper patent. The electric motors are integrated in the wheel hubs.

kdshapiro · April 2005

Web information is definitely suspect at times. But there could be some logical explanations. The 1905 patent could have been the first in the US. This of course could be fully investigated for the motivated. All patents should be on-line somewhere.

The Porsche vehicle may have been "first" in the world.

But at any rate we are seeing that either the Germans or Americans pioneered hybrid vehicles a 105 years ago, but the Japanese re-decided it was an idea whose time has come.

I'm with Stroudman on this. Hybrid is not having your cake and eating it to. Hybrid is pay more, have marginally more cake with less calories. You could take the same 5-10K premium and dump a supercharger and other performance mods into your vehicle. This way you can have the whole pie.

ljflx · April 2005

I really have a hard time understanding you or maybe you don't get hybrids. Your logic is also hard to get or your just not taking enough things into consideration.

Let me deal with the logic item:

MB charges 9K more for an S500 than for an S430. The S500 throws in about $3000 of optional items that the S430 lacks and the rest is for a 28HP bump. So you're out $6000 for that more powerful engine. Now Lexus comes along and gives you a new technology that gives you a greater HP bump than that S500 increment plus a lot better gas mileage and less polution. The cost is also less than you would pay for the bump from an S430 to an S500. Yet the Lexus hybrid buyer needs to do a break-even calc on the added cost?? As if gas mileage is the ony thing he is getting. Tell me - what does the S500 buyer do - see a pyschiatrist?? He just paid a lot more for a lot less than any Lexus hybrid buyer ever will.

As for all these firsts - who cares. Some of these lead times are 6-12 months or less usually debuting only with a new model. You can't handle the hybrid but in any business the most important item to be first on is a ground breaking new technology. That's the big dollar item. The rest of the stuff is pennies. Who originally thought it up is meaningless. Who brings it to market successfully is what counts - in any business. Sooner or later everyone offers the new technology - whether they are the groundbreaking dollar ones or the ho hum penny ones - and buyers couldn't give a damm who was first. But that groundbreaking technology lead will bring a bump in customers and that bump is usually permanent if the cars continue to be made as well as Toyota, Lexus and Honda make them.

michael_mattox · April 2005

Stroudman:

YES...I expect to get the best price on my car and the absolute best service...I am shocked to learn that some customers are discriminated against at the Mercedes Dealership...

michael_mattox · April 2005

Poor old Mr. Smith now owns his S450 or S500...BUT...He is sitting at home with his $80,000, once again, sitting in the dealers shop for week after week...

HE HAS, No $80,000....No pretty car to drive....But no problem...His neighbor has a clean burning, hybrid LS, Great Gas milage ...A very Green car...With a tremendous sound system, and ultra comfort, And it always works...

Like all Lexus owners, he is also very nice and willing to give Mr. Smith a Ride to work whenever he needs it.

Do you want to be Mr. Smith or his neighbor.

stroudman · April 2005

"who originally thought it up is meaningless. Who brings it to market successfully is what counts..."

-boy, are there some double standards around here...

ljflx · April 2005

Where's the double standard. I'm making a business case issue here. The company that broke ground with the mainstream PC doesn't even make them any more and got crushed right after the starting point. IF you go online and buy a Dell or an HP do you say thank-you to IBM while you are doing it. Do you even care that IBM started it all. That's my point.

michael_mattox · April 2005

Well....We could talk about Mercedes having dozens of engines to choose from or that they invented windshield wippers or some such.....But there is a new kid in town with perhaps the greatest new innovation in automobiles in the last 50 years...No wonder people want to talk about Hybrids.

Two things.... the most expensive Mercedes S is not as reliable as the LS 430, and the cheapest S class is more expensive then an LS ultra...and not nearly as reliable or Green.....or as fast for that matter...Nor does it have the luxury features of an LS ...And it may not even be as safe because they don't put all their safety features into it and the safety features they do put in...LIKE BREAKS...sometimes don't work properly.

Food for thought.

kdshapiro · April 2005

Do you even care that IBM started it all.

I do, they changed the world like the old AT&T and made billions from it. Do my kids who use an HP computer care? Probably not.

Two things.... the most expensive Mercedes S is not as reliable as the LS 430

So what? A $70K Rolex is not as reliable as a Timex. With a hybrid one is paying for technology costs and they know it. People see two identical vehicles, one with a hybrid drivetrain and one without. There is a marginal gain for a lot of money. Similiary to the S430 and S500. Marginal gain for a lot of money. People will buy it because they can, not because the difference is anything meaningful. But don't try to tell someone buying a hybrid is a performance upgrade and gas saver at the same time. Not if I have to spend $5K to save 500 dollars worth of gas.

ljflx · April 2005

"People will buy it because they can, not because the difference is anything meaningful."

People will buy it because it's the latest and greatest thing. In the lux goods arena that has an even greater weighting. The fact that it keeps the air cleaner, gets better mileage and adds power are added benefits. If we equated the cost of these cars to lesser cars the way you want to equate a gas to a hybrid engine then none of these marquee names would exist. On top of all that you are caught up on the thought that the hybrid will always be a $3-4K higher cost. Give it a year or two and it will be less than $1500. When it gets to that point everyone, well almost everyone, will want it.

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