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Comments
Bob
http://cars101.com/
This has been long rumored. Spitz is usually a very good Subie source, so if he says so, most likely it's true.
Bob
They have been doing it to me since '05. First dropped manual wagon GT, now dropping wagon altogether...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I also expect higher content—and I'm really "hoping" for much improved NVH. My biggest complaint of my '06 WRX Limited wagon—by far— is excessive road noise. That needs to be seriously addressed!
Bob
Subaru's really alienated a core base of its fans with this move.
Does subaru break out the number of Legacy wagons sold? Is it really that low?
Subaru Legacy recorded sales of 84,442 units, of which the Subaru Outback posted 59,262 units for 2006.
That means that only about 30% of those sales were the Legacy, and thats not breaking it down between wagon and sedan.
Mark
Mark
I'm a little bummed that I have to say I have a Legacy wagon from the last model year of manufacture.
CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT - THE FOLLOWING IS COMPLETE CONJECTURE
Perhaps the Legacy and the Outback will now follow different paths in the future? The Legacy could become a more focused sports sedan and the Outback could become even more focused on utility.
They've got Toyota money now so why not?
John
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I can tell you that the rumored lack of a Legacy GT wagon for 08, along with the modest changes to the Outback for 08, played a role in my decision to buy an Acura RDX yesterday. While I think the Outback is much better for utility overall, I have been wanting better/sharper on-road handling and more interior room/comfort. Subaru is not offering any of that in a wagon for 08. I got a great offer on my 05 XT, and a sub-invoice deal on the RDX with low financing, and that was enough to finish making my decision (which I have mulled for months, so this wasn't really sudden).
I am not disgruntled with Subaru in any way, but I think they have room to improve the current formula, especially in interior packaging and efficiency. I have $2K in Subaru bucks, still growing, that I will be happy to bring back to the brand if they have a future product that fits the bill. I think they need a roomier Legacy/Outback wagon/CUV with good handling, solid performance, and decent fuel economy to lure me back (unfortunately the Tribeca is a little too big and ponderous for my tastes, looks notwithstanding).
Craig
BTW, 2 grand subaru bucks is maximum, as yearly maximum is $500 and they expire afte 4 years.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Back on topic, I agree with you that the writing has been on the wall with respect to the Legacy wagon and that Subaru needs to make some hard decisions as a small car company. I think Subaru came out generally strong with the 2005 models with the exception of some key features like VDC. Unfortuantely, I don't see them keeping up with the rest of the industry in terms of features.
Needless to say, I'm not sure if my next purchase will be a Subie with no more LGT wagon.
Ken
One thing I love about the RDX is the way the cargo cover just lays flat on the cargo floor when not needed. When it's on the floor it looks perfectly natural—as if if it were designed that way, which of course it was. Acura and Honda still lead as masters of details...
Bob
As for the 08 updates, I think the Legacy looks slightly better and the Outback looks slightly worse. I say the latter because you can tell it was face-lifted, i.e. not designed that way from a clean sheet.
I don't dislike it, but there wasn't anything wrong with the current model, so if I were shopping for one, I think I'd seek an 07 before they run out. I can understand them wanting to differentiate it more, though.
The Legacy looks great.
Outback sedan sold fewer units than the Baja, so I understand that. But no Legacy wagon? That seems crazy. They sold plenty of those.
Subaru always makes hints at their direction, and in highsight I think the 07 Outback Basic was a hint that this new lower-priced Outback wagon would replace the Legacy wagon.
I also agree with Bob, that the new Outback grille will hint at the new Tribeca. I just hope it's integrated nicely with the overall look.
-juice
My wife and I both get them, since we have two of the Subaru Mastercard accounts. So I imagine we could max out at $4K of coupons. However, we could still only spend $2K on any single vehicle purchase. That doesn't stop us from getting a pair of Subarus, however, or a Subaru and a butt-load of accessories after the sale! I am thinking I will buy some Subaru gear, clothing, etc with the coupons if they expire before we get to use them (at least a couple years away). They can also be used to buy tires through a Subaru dealer using TireRack.
Ken: I am not sure why the OB XT had such high value at CarMax, but it was $3K more than the best trade offer I saw at Acura dealers, and only $500-700 less than I was going to ask for private sale to a coworker. Even more interesting considering the car was in average condition for the miles and age, and needed new tires soon. This has been, by far, the best resale value of any car I have owned. On the flip side, the RDX has all of those features I added to the OB XT as mods, so I can play with some other stuff now! (I do have a bunch of accessories to install this weekend).
Had Subaru offered a more sigificantly refreshed Legacy GT wagon for 08, that probably would have been on my list (remember I was debating between the XT and GT back in 04). But I still would have been looking for VDC and more passenger room. For a vehicle that is smaller in several key dimensions than the Legacy/Outback, the RDX is significantly roomier inside for the driver and passengers. Just seems like a better allocation of space, something Honda has always been good at.
Bob: as I have been looking at the RDX since August, I have a lot of mental notes on how it compares to the XT, and maybe I can do a writeup at some point. The RDX and XT (and Leg GT wagon) are very much in the same category in my mind and share a lot of similarities right down to the turbo-4. I have mixed feelings on the RDX cargo shelf, and kind of prefer the rollup "shade" type cover on the XT for stowage and utility. I can see how the shelf would be hard to deal with if you already had a load in the cargo area and wanted to deploy or stow it. The shade, on the other hand, can't really get trapped by cargo for the most part, and is easy to hide somewhere if it needs to be removed. I also whacked my head on the RDX shelf tonight when loading up my gear for skiing tomorrow, and decided to ditch it for now! (maybe I need to start wearing my ski helmet when loading the car).
Juice: if you get a chance to test drive the RDX, I think you will have fun -- coming from Subarus, there is plenty to observe on the RDX -- good and bad. The RDX is weaker on utility than the Leg/OB wagons, but the handling and overall road feel is quite good -- about the best I have experienced. If I could have a vehicle with the utility of the Outback with the road manners of the RDX, it would be a home run.
Craig
I posted this over at nasioc. Not very professional, but it's my quickie interpretation:
I do wish the Legacy/Outback was more "space-efficient" on the inside. It seems bigger on the outside than the inside, and that's made it a bit of a squeeze for a family of four. Little things, like how small the glovebox is, how small the front side pockets are, no side pockets in the rear doors, a tiny center console (the JDM one helps a bit, but not much). Some of this is due to the vehicle's width, ring structure, etc. but it can be inconvenient at times.
I'd still buy it over a bigger, more family-oriented Camcord, though.
EEEESSSSHHHH!!
It looks like an Impala mated with the Tribeca!!">
Sounds like you got an excellent deal. I would rather sell to a third party than have to deal with the potential hassle of a private sale at that price difference. Now your entire garage is by Honda Motor Corp, isn't that right?
It is really too bad that Subaru ended up taking out the LGT wagon in 08. I also am left wondering if there will be Subaru with my next purchase too. For us, we are planning on getting a larger vehicle to replace my wife's Jetta so I still forsee a need for a Legacy wagon sized vehicle in our fleet. I'm not particularly interested in the OB and my wife isn't very fond of the Tribeca (she likes the MDX but that's a different topic). Slim pickings right now.
Anyway, I hope you stick around the forums. I'm interested to hear your early impressions of the RDX, perhaps over in the Subaru Crew Cafe. Out of curiosity, was the Forester XT even an consideration?
Ken
-mike
It wouldn't take much (really) to give us just a tad more size in certain areas.
John
Honda and Toyota have sold 2 seperate models for years, the bigger one for the USA.
I'm not saying Subaru should mimick them, but a big sedan and a minivan (or roomier Tribeca) couldn't hurt.
-juice
I like the new MDX -- the interior is nice, and it rides/handles well. But it's too big for me and too much of an SUV. And I have zero use for a third row seat and no real need for a big V6 or towing capabilities. Plus $40K is out of my comfort zone for a car. If your wife likes the MDX, the RDX is worth a look, especially if you don't need that third row seat. Passenger space is about the same between the two in the first two rows. I feel like the base RDX is a very good value at the $30K street price.
I will definitely stick around. Hopefully I can do an RDX writeup at some point. I took it skiing today and it was fantastic -- which says a lot because I always considered the Outback to be a perfect ski car.
The FXT was not on my list because it feels dated to me at this point, it's tight for passengers, don't like the 4EAT, no VDC (though the new sports cross gets it), and it's missing some of the luxury touches and refinement I had in the OB XT. As much as I like the Forester in general, I think it would have been a step backward from the OB XT. The RDX is more of a sideways move from the OB XT.
Two efforts:
Upcoming Impreza will be on the Legacy chassis, so should offer more interior room.
B9 Tribeca launched - biggest Subie yet.
And I have to think that with the Impreza growing in size, that Legacy will grow to keep differentiation between models. Remember '08 isn't a major change for Legacy, mostly a refresh.
Maybe by the time you're done with the Lincoln, Subaru will offer something that could bring you back.
The Legacy should have been the first to become larger, it should be the flagship for the brand and reflect that.
I know that subaru is small and nitch market, in the time I've been with them I've seen Hyundai, Kia grow and others.
I doubt they will get much bigger with Toyota increasing production in subarus' Indiana plant.
We shall see what they offer in the future. They are excellent cars but need to upscale as their customers become more affluent, if they want to keep them.
Subies have a lot more character.
The Mercury was roomy though, it felt very wide to me.
-juice
Ken
I'm just not in the $40k price range. But if it were $30k I'd probably jump on one right now.
-juice
The price tag is steep but I think it's priced relative to other vehicles in it's class.
Now, I would be fine in a Odyssey Touring model or the like, but my better half just can't warm to the idea (yet).
Ken
The last Pilot I test drove also rode stiffly, but they may be better now because that was several model years ago.
-juice
I really like the new MDX as a replacement for our Expedition, but the extra 12" of length on the GM's make for a pretty nice third row experience.
Karl
Space is incredible, they really are huge. Probably twice as much room as a Tribeca in the 2nd and 3rd rows.
But...the seats are not very comfy. The 2nd row middle and the entire 3rd row still feel like a penalty box. A roomy one, but still.
Also, visibility was a huge issue for me. Blind spots are huge. I backed in to a curb and the salesman understood - you can't see where you're going.
It's huge, so if you like big, you'll like the Outlook. It felt solid, quick, smooth, quiet. FWD model had some torque steer, and it leaned a bit, but not bad for its size.
If seat comfort isn't high on your priority list, take a close look. But for me, when a vehicle that large only seats 4 adults comfortably, it's a deal killer.
-juice
I looked at the Odyssey EX (like it better than the Touring) and thought it was very nice. Almost nice enough to alleviate the minivan stigma! I don't know how to convince a spouse to get one though. Of course, your wife *is* a mother of two so it's not like the minivan will change that a whole lot -- I think she's 99% of the way to being a minivan mom already, whether she knows it or not!
But hey, if we were shopping for similar vehicles and my wife wanted the MDX over a minivan, I would not have a problem with that at all. I would definitely prefer an RDX myself though -- it's got a younger sportier feel (then again, I am the target demographic for the RDX, and about 13 years younger than the typical MDX buyer).
I compared them both to the Tribeca. I had never been in a Tribeca before. If you want/need a third row the Tribeca is an absolute joke. I could barely get out of the back once I was in there.
I do not seem to be that picky when it comes to seat comfort. I have never owned a vehicle I consider uncomfortable. I thought the second row of the Acadia when moved all the way back was great. Even with it moved forward to make space in the third row I thought it was quite comfortable. The fact that I am only 5'9" and the tallest in my family may help.
I loved the leather in the MDX. The vehicle has a real quality feel to it, at least compared to my Outback and my wifes Expedition.
My wife loves the Expedition and I hate it, so I suspect she will really like the size of the Acadia (I'm not a Saturn fan).
Karl
The Outlook's 2nd row was too low to the ground and also very thinly padded, probably a compromise to make the seat easier to fold. But that's a pretty big compromise for people that carry kids most of the time, and not cargo.
The Tribeca's seats are far more comfy, this the 2nd row, the one people actually USE most of the time. Especially the center seat, it's a 40/20/40 fold and the 20 part is actually inhabitable.
On the Saturn, it's like you're sitting on a board of wood, no padding, and the backrest is even stiffer. OK for 4 people, but not 5.
I have low expectations for 3rd rows, so as long as a couple of 10 year olds fit, I'm happy.
-juice