Subaru Crew Cafe

kens · November 2003

My brother saw a Phateon on the streets of San Francisco a few weeks back. They're definetly out.

On the same note, I wonder if you could take a Saab 9-2X to a Subaru dealer? ;-)

Ken

kens · November 2003

Okay folks. I've been doing some more research on the iPod and I notice that there is some competition out there. In particular, the Creative Zen and Dell DJ are two models that trade off some of the sleek look and size of the iPod for more storage and much longer battery life. I've also read that the Creative Zen has a better DSP than the iPod resulting in better frequency response.

However, it's tough to get objective comparisions on these models. Anyone here have experiences comparing these models?

Ken

c_hunter · November 2003

For an objective opinion look at these articles:

http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/solution-20031029.html

http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/solution-20031022.html

I was disappointed that the battery life went down in the newer iPods. My wife's older model gets 12 hours, my newer one only 8. But, so far it hasn't been an issue with me.

Craig

c_hunter · November 2003

The Dell DJ is a re-packaged Creative player, so the feature set of the two should be very similar.

Craig

ateixeira · November 2003

And it'll break down often, so that's a legit concern! LOL

-juice (still experiencing sticker shock)

twrx · November 2003

"Baja" is gone, only "Sport" and "Turbo". 5 speed is listed for turbo.There is no mention of a delay on this setup. Price for turbo 5 speed is the same as the 2003 "Baja": $23,995. "Sport" remains $21,995 for 5 mt. There is an auto Baja Turbo for $1000 more with VTD and sportshift. $26,995 gets leather and seat heaters.( auto only.) All turbos have 6 disk changer.

local dealer has a turbo on next order

twrx

ateixeira · November 2003

OK, so the base model is history. Noone was buying it anyway.

So the turbo is a $2000 option, not bad. That's about the difference on the Forester, but they add a little content. We did the math and the turbo on the Forester accounted for about $1200 worth of the price increase. If you consider the 6CD used to be a $520 option on some Subies, the turbo is adding about $1500 to the Baja's price.

My guess is we'll see street prices around $19k for the Sport, $21k for the turbo 5 speed. That's a pretty good value, and a couple grand below where you'll find XT prices.

-juice

kens · November 2003

Yesterday, I followed my tradition of going to the San Francisco Auto Show after turkey day. This auto show is minor so it never has any new unveilings or things we haven't seen at the larger ones earlier in the year. Nonetheless, the $7 admission is a cheap price to walk around and burn off some of that Thanksgiving meal.

Two vehicles that impressed me:
Acura TL This vehicle looks great inside and out. Acura has done a good job with the styling and choice of materials. I wasn't sure how the groove down the side would look, but it works quite well with the vehicle. The seats, controls and DVD navi system were first class. Although the TL plays in the near-luxury market, they one-up the competition with the roominess of the vehicle. Clearly, the positioning of the TSX has enabled the TL to narrow it's product positioining.

This vehicle is an enormous bargain with 6MT and standard Brembo brakes all for $33K. I genuinely hope the Legacy GT will come close with it's price-feature competitiveness.

Mazda 3 I wasn't expecting to see this vehicle here, but lo and behold, Mazda had both the hatchback and sedan. The styling is refreshing and the list of standard features impressive. The seats were comfortable, done in a tasteful black fabric, and the interior quite roomy for a compact car. The 3 is a great follow up to the successful Protege line. No doubt that this vehicle will give the Impreza TS competition.

The big letdown:
BMW X3 Can anyone say cheap? Heavy use of plastic, cramped interior, funky styling. It'll sell by virtue of the propeller mark but there are plenty of better alternatives out there.

Subaru seemed to be low-key this year, perhaps in preparation for next year's big Legacy intro. Last year, Subaru was right smack at the entrance to the North Hall. This year, they were located way in the corner. They had a bunch of Legacys, a Baja, a few Foresters and one each of the Impreza line in their booth.

The WRX STi had the most attention with a steady line of people waiting to sit in the cockpit. I overheard many people saying "That's one fast car". The only other "feature" was a XT on a rotating platform. Unfortunately, there weren't a many people standing around looking at it.

I'm hoping Subaru goes front and center again next year!

Ken

ateixeira · November 2003

TL has crept up in price steadily, didn't the last one start at $27k when it came out? I'd have a little sticker shock if I had an old one and wanted to trade it in for a new one.

At least the new one has a front LSD. AWD would make it a segment leader.

C&D clocked the 3 at 7.4s to 60 with the 2.3l, not bad for a car that isn't in the MazdaSpeed lineup. Imagine the model that will!

The same magazine criticized the X3, one editor even compared it, unfavorably, to the Forester XT.

-juice

kens · November 2003

Yes, I think the outgoing TL did have a sub-$30K sticker, but back then there was no TSX to fill the void.

Even if the TL doesn't have AWD and come in a wagon, I'd still cross-shop it with the upcoming Legacy.

Ken

ateixeira · November 2003

Well, an ex-TL owner may be forced to shop the smaller TSX if that's all they can afford.

$30k is my "psycological limit". Beyond that they just lose my attention. I'll look at vehicles that might dip below that mark with incentives and discounts, though.

I think the G35 beats out the TL in every way except the interior, and I'd live with the interior.

-juice

rsholland · November 2003

is offering Navigation system as an option. This has to be the first factory Nav system on a car in this price range.

Bob

ateixeira · November 2003

Autoweek says the new Golf has 3 tranny options - all SIX speeds. Wow.

Subaru wants to go upscale, look at what VW has already done successfully. But also, look at where VW has failed. Learn from their mistakes, but do what worked for them.

-juice

rsholland · November 2003

The current issue of Motor Trend has an editorial on hybrid vehicles, in which there was a call to apply this new technology to performance vehicles, and not just eco-cars. I couldn't agree more.

This idea struck the editor like a bolt of lightning (pun intended!) after having driven the new hybrid Prius. The Prius, BTW, just won MT's "Car of the Year" award.

Bob

rangner · November 2003

Those teens with the modded out hybrid japanese cars with two tone paint jobs--copper fronts and black rears. The high performance duracell car!!

;-)

Eric

jlemole · November 2003

We'll be replacing our Quest in the spring. My wife wants another smaller minivan. Anybody have experience with the MPV's? Thanks.

Jon

ateixeira · November 2003

I drove it and liked it. Dynamic handling is the best of the vans, IMO.

Another plus - the seat is the only one that slides to the side, even with a baby still in it. No other van can do that.

Bob - the Prius opened my eyes, too. It wasn't quite being struck by lightning, but the pros (range, HOV lane access, mileage, torque at idle, etc.) outweight the cons now.

-juice

subearu · November 2003

We have an MPV also (see my profile for a pic). It's dw's vehicle and she absolutely loves it. She actually dislikes driving my Outback now (that's good since that makes it easier to get an MT in my next Subie ;-)

We didn't want one of the larger vans. The MPV can be had easily for invoice before any rebates as well. Roll down side windows are nice, and so is the huge moonroof. It does handle well for a minivan.

-Brian

rsholland · November 2003

Imagine if it had a 3.0 gas engine instead of its 1.5!

Better still, image if the the new Subie crossover had a 3.0/electric option! Or even the Legacy GT and/or Outback!

Bob

ateixeira · November 2003

That might even be overkill.

With the electric motor boosting acceleration when necessary, a 2.5l would be more than enough for any Subie in the current lineup.

But yeah, different thinking - noone has come up with a "performance hybrid". Hey, Subaru is known for niche vehicles, talk about a niche within a niche!

-juice

c_hunter · November 2003

Brian (subearu) has an MPV, I'm sure he'll comment. I know they are pretty well regarded among the minivan crowd.

Craig

subearu · November 2003

Craig, I already did: subearu Nov 30, 2003 9:16pm

In fact, there are a few others at MPV Club that have a Subie in their fleet.

-Brian

twrx · December 2003

Yes the TL had a $27 k list. That was with the 225 hp engine though. $30 k got you the type S with 260 hp. The new TL gets 270 hp and the TSX 200 hp for about $27 k. I have a friend with a brand new TL. He loves it. I finally saw a TSX recently. I like the styling of it too.

Local Mazda dealer has 5 of the Mazda 3's. 4 of them are the "5 door". All are equipped the same. Auto trans and 6CD/sunroof option. None have ABS. $19,250. I like the price in general for the car but no ABS at $19,000 is not the way I would like it. You would think if they got that many of them in their first shipment theere would be some difference. Mazda 3 is built in Hiroshima. RX8's are in vast number at the local dealer.(10+ the last I saw.) There is a a wide variety on this car of price an features. More 6 speeds but some autos available.

TWRX

bsvoller · December 2003

Actually, "both" Brian's here have one... (Must be something about the name...

)

We really like ours. I wish Subaru had offered something similar at a similar price point, but we couldn't wait for the 7-passenger Subie, and it's rumored to come in at high 20's, whereas the MPV sells in the low to mid-20's.

I won't drive a bus, and the MPV is the only van out there that can deliver decent handling. Power with the new 3.0 Mazda-modified Duratec is plentiful; the auto 5 speed shifts nice and keeps the engine in its power band. It has plenty of space inside, an extremely versatile interior (magic third seat, side-by-slide second row, etc), roll-down 2nd row windows, rides nice (not "floaty"), quiet, corners willingly.

Oh, and it fits in your garage. This is a mid-sized car. It's 2" shorter than the new Accord, and about as wide.

We have an '03 LX with:
Traction Control
Side air bags
All seasons (tow package, heated mirrors, etc)
Rear air
Rear heat
Moonroof
Roof rack
Fogs
and assorted minor goodies.

Ours was $23k plus change including destination before tags and taxes. Power doors are available, but we didn't want them. Compared to our comparably equipped Forester which cost virtually the same 3 years ago, we got a 5-speed automatic and a 200hp V6 for free.

Despite a recent rash of complaints regarding hard shifting, still the most reliable mini-van on our market.

Things I wish it had that it doesn't...
Patti !
Mazda M/C program ala Subaru's
Heated seats
Premium sound package as a stand alone option
Rear wiper with spring loaded "cleaning" position
Powered rear quarter windows (3rd row)

Hope this helps,

-brianV

rsholland · December 2003

and well ahead of MB, etc.

http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=42905

Bob

locke2c · December 2003

it's a survey of a 38,000 member car club though.

can you imagine what such a survey would look like if NASIOC did one? (they're about the same size.)

-c

c_hunter · December 2003

Craig, I already did: subearu Nov 30, 2003 9:16pm

Geez, I must be going blind!!

Craig

ateixeira · December 2003

The 3 kinda looks like a baby Murano if you squint. Some say it's smaller inside than the Protoge5 was. I'll have to see for myself.

I realize the TL got more power, it just seems like crazy money for a FWD sedan.

-juice

rsholland · December 2003

is now partnering with Subaru. There's a press release on the Subaru media site as of today. Which raises the following question: Will Subaru continue their relationship with LL Bean? Do you expect there will be an LL Bean Outback for '05?

Bob

rsholland · December 2003

http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/parts/blbp_legacy/index.html

rsholland · December 2003

http://www.allsubaru.com/

c_hunter · December 2003

As far as I know, Nordica only makes ski equipment, so I don't see it as overlap with LL Bean.

Craig

jlemole · December 2003

Brian, Brian and Juice: Thanks for your comments. It sounds like a definite contender. My wife certainly likes the looks of it, so a thorough test drive will be in order.

Do you guys know of any VIP discount programs available. I have a year before I need to purchase.

Jon

bluesubie · December 2003

That's where SubieGal works.

-Dennis

subearu · December 2003

Mazda does participate in S-Plan pricing, which essentially is invoice, plus you can include any applicable rebates. But, generally you don't need to use it as they typically sell for around invoice anyway, before rebates. I think most people got their MPV's for $2k under invoice with the rebate this year, depending on when they shopped (rebate was recently $2.5k).

There is a MPV Owner Club here at Edmunds (as well as another 'club' elsewhere on the net), stop on over. :-)

-Brian

lucien2 · December 2003

A bunch of us on the other board are looking for someplace to order that big ol' viking hat w/ the Norwegian flag on it that Petter was running around in at the end of Rally GB. None of us has had any luck finding it. Any ideas?

ateixeira · December 2003

Ford (and Mazda) have S-plan pricing if you work for a supplier or one of the companies under the Ford umbrella.

Hmm, illuminated vanity mirror is on clearance for my wife's car. Anyone know if that is pre-wired? $49, not bad, could be a stocking stuffer.

-juice

hondafriek · December 2003

I read somewhere that they are pre wired but I am not sure where it was I read it, anyway they are not a big deal to wire if you had to.

Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · December 2003

Wish I had the time for a project like that. I began to wire lights for my Miata and never finished! I never get a 3-4 hour period to myself like that, the kids are all over me by then.

If it's pre-wired, bolt-on and plug-in, then I'd get it.

-juice

subearu · December 2003

http://www.tmcclient.com/subaru/turbo1

Alright already, I'll get the XT MT. Just let my IMBA kick-in. ;-)

-Brian

lucien2 · December 2003

luckily I didn't get that. I am sooooo close to going WRX, but I know I owe it to myself as long-standing Legacy torch-bearer to wait and see what pricing is on that schweet 2.5t.

locke2c · December 2003

I got it. Vrooooom

-c

njswamplands · December 2003

but driving it, oh life was made to experience surprises like this.

c_hunter · December 2003

The kit comes with a harness that attaches up under the headliner, near the map light, and then you run the wires to each visor where they connect to a plug coming through the hinge. Pretty simple install, probably 30 minutes tops.

Craig

hammersley · December 2003

Got the e-mail, haven't opened it yet.
Talk about restraint!

Cheers!
Paul

rsholland · December 2003

not kind to Subaru this issue.

First they award their "Automobile of the Year" to the Evo. Then Bob Cumberford trashed the B-9 Scrambler, saying it looks like a fish (I think Cumberford must have fallen out of bed that day, as he didn't much like anything at the Toyko show). Finally a smug comment about a used '96 SVX, that it will never be worth much over $6K.

Oh well...

Bob

ateixeira · December 2003

Forbes put EVO on the 10 best sports cars of all time list. Good week for Mitsu?

Lots of folks here don't "get" Tokyo, not one bit.

Craig: follow-up question. Since we got an aftermarket moonroof, the OE headliner is history. They installed a fabric one. Will that hinder access to anything? Did you have to pull the OE headliner back to install the visor?

-juice

rsholland · December 2003

* Just heard on the news that future SUVs will be designed so that they will be lower to the ground. Reason: So that their heights will be more compatible with cars in accidents, thereby being safer for car occupants.

I bet this will result in more SUVs being offered with height-adjustable suspensions, so that they can still go off road. Ultimately that "should" result in some pretty durable and reliable units. No longer will height-adjustable suspensions be just a "boutique" item, offered only on a few pricey models. Instead, will become as commonplace as power steering for those types of vehicles.

* Most cars are on 5-year product life cycles. I'm wondering, with the ever increasing new technology, if that should change to a 4-year product life cycle?

In the past 5 years seemed to be a pretty reasonable time span, especially with most people financing their cars for 5 years. However, now I'm beginning to think, in today's world, 5 years almost seems like an eternity for an automobile to stay pretty much the same.

Think not? The current Legacy is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. While certainly a good car, it became "old" almost immediately, and waiting for this all-new model seems to have taken forever. If it had been on a 4-year product cycle, rather than its current 5-year product cycle, the wait would not have been nearly as tortuous.

Bob

paisan · December 2003

I'm against it personally. Longer is better IMHO, for one thing everyone wants the newest latest greatest etc. Yet most people can't afford it. Not to mention that reliability goes down with shorter life-cycles.

-mike

rsholland · December 2003

The Honda Accord, from 1981 through 1996 were on 4-year product cycles; and those cars were known for their excellence.

http://world.honda.com/ACCORD/history01.html

Bob

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