Subaru Crew Cafe

rsholland

http://www.nissanusa.com/m/pdf/Titan_FourWheeler_012004.pdf

The order:

1. Nisan Titan
2. Ford F-150
3. Toyota Tundra Double-Cab

Bob

ateixeira

Those top two trucks are gonna do a lot of battles like this. I bet they split the awards about evenly.

-juice

rsholland

I've been a subscriber to FourWheeler for a number of years. IMO, they are about the best general-purpose* "truck" magazine out there. I trust their observations more so than most other truck/car publications.

* = I say "general purpose," because there are a lot of truck magazines who put most of their emphasis on the off-roading aspect, at the detriment of general livability. For the average Joe-trucker, I think FourWheeler makes the best calls out there.

Bob

ateixeira

<now awaiting wise crack from paisan>

LOL!

-juice

paisan

I do my own testing. Period.

-mike

ateixeira

Now that's a best practice.

I can't tell you how often I disagree with a review I read after driving a vehicle.

-juice

paisan

Yup, i've been let down, time and time again, so now I pretty much discount anything I read, and just go test em myself, preferrably a friend's vehicle at that, due to the "used" status of it, instead of brand-spanking-new status. Most new cars will feel great, but 10-20K miles on it and you are really testing it. If I can find a rental one, it's even better cause it's been abused, which will show how well it will take my abuse!

-mike

ateixeira

Too bad not all cars are offered for rent. But yeah, a week-long rental really lets you live with the car.

GM has a 24 hour test drive, where you can take a car home over night. I wouldn't mind trying a Vue Redline that way. I didn't like the old V6 or the interior but supposedly they changed both.

-juice

lucien2

someone asked you your thoughts on XT vs.WRX on my behalf also.

fibber2

Nice car - roomy, VVT 4 cyl was plenty powerful - felt like a V6. Unfortunately, missing traction control or AWD, I could have killed those front tires in about a week without really trying.

Steve

c_hunter

You should have peeked under the door weatherstripping. Chances are, you would have seen rust!

Craig

lark6

In last night's chat I mentioned to you that I wrote up my back-to-back test drives of a Forester XT and WRX wagon. It's post #95 of 351 [Aug 03, 2003 (11:26 am)] in the XT vs. WRX topic.

Please bear in mind both cars were ATs, so your impressions will definitely vary.

Hope this helps.

Ed

rsholland

You have to keep in mind that subjective opinions, are just that: "subjective." So, those are always going to be open for debate, depending on your perspective. In this particular case I know they were wrong about the F-150's towing and payload (under what's not to like). So there I disagree with them.

What magazines do offer, that the average reader can't do, is the "measurable stuff" that requires acurate instrumentation. They also bring a level of expertise on the subject that may not be available too. Same with comparison testing, like the FourWheeler test here. Odds are they can do that better than the average Joe. Plus these tests are the combination of several testers, not just one, so what is written is often the result of several perspectives.

I make my decisions from my experiences, plus from whatever I have read. The more I read, in combination with my own testing, the more likely I'm going to make a good informed decision.

Bob

lucien2

no wonder I missed it, I can't keep up with all the forums here! That was a great write up, thanks. Based on it and my own impressions, I still think I am more a WRX candidate. Only thing holding me back really is style and seats. Oh, and the total non-wiseness of buying a car right now!

jimmyp1

that GM 24 hour thing, I was considering that for a Suburban until my wife decided that wasn't what she wanted, BUT, as was discussed here regarding the Corvette driving event, I believe you have to sign something saying you are serious about buying and something tells me they run a credit report on you. Stupid, IMHO. They might as well not run that promo.

Jim

ateixeira

That new rust feature is amazing. You used to have to wait YEARS for it to work! ;-)

Interesting point, Bob. I think those reviews are less useful to a special needs driver like paisan, who pushes his vehicles harder than 99% of buyers do.

Besides maybe some towing information, their impressions are not of much use to him. A firm shifting automatic and stiff ride might be positives in his book, while CR criticizes them.

I use the reviews as you mention, to get an idea and to know what to look for, then drive to form my own opinion.

Also, reviews' quality varies greatly. I find the lesser ones are riddled with factual errors.

-juice

rsholland

but over a period of time, you get to know the publications and their bias/faults, and take that into consideration. I'm simply saying the more information that you expose yourself to, the more likely it is that you'll be able to make a good decision.

Bob

ateixeira

Absolutely.

It was funny, I was browing CR yesterday and saw that the EVO suffered $2900+ in damage from their bumper basher.

Funny, but....it is an argument in favor of top mounted intercoolers. It was about 6 times the damage the STi suffered.

So even an enthusiast can take something from a mainstream car rag.

-juice

c_hunter

I really like Car and Driver reviews of sports-oriented cars in the practical price range ($20K-40K I guess). I rarely read or care about reviews of anything in the big dollar range, I guess that stuff is not realistic for my world.

Anyway, Car and Driver loved the 97 Prelude, and so did I. Bought one as soon as I could. They loved the WRX and so did I. Got that too. They recently had a review of the Acura TSX where they referred to 30-somethings who probably miss the dearly-departed Prelude, and pretty much described me down to the dot on the last i. After reading the article I was ready to go out and test drive one, and chances are I'd really like the car and want to buy it. The one thing they did not talk about was how to convince your wife you need a TSX on top of everything else. I could use some help on that.

Craig

ateixeira

I could have written the first paragraph, Craig. In fact I may sue for thought copywrite infringement. ;-)

They gave the '98 Forester rave reviews, in fact it won that comparo.

-juice

rsholland

Got a call from my daughter earlier in the day. She was on her way down to NC to visit some friends for the weekend. She got about 10 miles into the trip when the "D4" dash indicator on her '92 Prelude started flashing red!

In any event, she pulled over and checked her owners manual, and it mentioned if that occurs (flashing red) that there could be a problem in the tranny. So she nursed it to our mechanic, and that's where the car now sits. I went and got her, and she's now got our Forester, and is continuing with her trip.

The mechanic just called and asked if we were having any problem with the speedometer when this was occurring. If so, that may be some sort of indicator!?!? of what's going on here. BTW, I didn't speak to the mechanic, my wife did. Right now we're trying to get a hold of our daughter, but she's got her cell phone turned off.

This sounds bizarre, to say the least. I've never run across this problem before, let alone ever even heard of it!! Anybody have a clue as to what might be happening here?

Bob

c_hunter

I only ever owned nanual-trans Hondas, so I can't say much. However, if the vehicle speed sensor (VSS) went bad, it could affect both the transmission and the speedometer, depending on how they are all set up.

In newer cars with wired speedos, the VSS usually feeds the transmission and the speedometer. In older cars with an actual speedo cable running into the dash, the VSS pickup may be connected to the same mechanism.

So, I can see how speedometer and auto-trans problems could be related. I think the VSS is used for other things too, such as the idle speed controller (which governs how the engine returns to idle from higher rpms).

Craig

robr2

GM 24 Hour Test Drive - I believe the dealer is allowed the discretion of deciding who is allowed to take a car home overnight. If someone isn't serious about buying the car, I don't think the dealer should allow people to take overnight joy rides.

nygreg

I agree 100% with you (and Juice) on the interest in realistically affordable cars. One reason I don't spend a lot of time reading car magazines, is that most articles are about cars I'll never even drive (or see for that matter). I do enjoy, however, articles on ones I might actually own one day. Case in point - I would love to get the S2000 after reading a review of it recently. Of course I can't bring that up at the dinner table since I have been slowly building my case for a 200X Legacy Turbo 6MT.

Greg

ateixeira

D4? Sounds like an auto, no?

I'd say the tranny's ECU is acting up. I would actually have tried a battery disconnect/reset before even taking it in.

But...then it is your daughter and for an out-of-town trip you want to be sure she'll make it.

I have the perfect solution - a turbo Baja. ;-)

-juice

subearu

is the mag that reviewed the XT and surprised us all with it's 0-60 in 5.3seconds timing. I received a lot of flack for posting details of that review in the XT threads.

RE: D4 in the Honda is most likely a failed/failing VSS, according to one of my coworkers.

-Brian

kens

I really like Car and Driver reviews of sports-oriented cars in the practical price range ($20K-40K I guess). I rarely read or care about reviews of anything in the big dollar range, I guess that stuff is not realistic for my world.

Same here. I subscribe to C&D, R&T and Automobile and I hate it when all they do is test pricey vehicles (like the latest issues). I guess I'm just a bourgeois kind of guy.

Ken

rsholland

The D4 light is normally green, IIFC; but it started flashing red??

Still no idea what's going on here. I guess I'll find out Monday. Thanks guys.

Bob

rsholland

The Touareg won 4Wheel & Off-Road's 4-Wheeler of the year award. What's most notable here, is this is a magazine that historically has hated any SUV with IFS/IRS; and now the Touareg has won their top award!

I think it's the upcoming January or February issue.

Bob

c_hunter

I'll keep my bet on the VSS.

Craig

subearu

a quick search as well at some honda sites and found similar findings for the flashing D4 light ==> VSS. So, I'm with Craig on the vote.

-Brian

paisan

Toreg award... Yeah ok "4-wheeler of the year" It's an AWD wagon, give me a break. It's a shame that a "4-wheeler" magazine should sellout like that. Don't get me wrong the VW is a decent car, but it's no "4-wheeler"

-mike

rsholland

another armchair opinion.

Mike, why don't you go out and drive one, and test it for yourself, instead of spouting off from the grandstands? You just might be surprised.

Of all the off-road 4x4 magazines out there, 4-Wheel & Off-Road is about as "hardcore off-road" as they come. If they think it can "wheel," that's good enough for me.

From the VW Touareg forum here at Edmunds:

According to press release:

10 new four-wheel-drive pickup trucks and SUVs were tested: The Nissan Titan, Chevrolet Colorado, Ford F-150, Toyota Tundra Double Cab, Isuzu Ascender, Isuzu Axiom, Nissan Pathfinder Armada, Dodge Durango and Lexus GX470 plus the T-reg.

Doug McColloch said: "The Touareg redefines the luxury SUV segment....It was a runaway winner in my book."

The T-reg easily won the Mechanical, Interior and Exterior categories. It was a week-long test that contained tons of offroad stuff and some onroad segments.

Rest of the press release cites well-known facts and more laudatory stuff, not nec to repeat here.

The issue goes on sale on 12/28/03

Bob

hypov

Will anyone take it off-road?

-Dave

kens

mike,

From what I've read, the Touareg's suspension and drivetrain system are pretty competent for off-roading. It's way overkill for what actual owners will really need it for.

What do you consider a "4-Wheeler"?

Ken

hondafriek

It is the VSS I had to have one replaced on the 93 Accord wagon I had.

  Cheers Pat.

locke2c

No doubt, the WRX wagon is noticably more nimble. The Forester should be compared to other "tall wagons" or cute-utes to be fair, though. The WRX wagon feels a little sloppy to me; it's not as planted as my M3 (which actually has a relatively forgiving ride, but is well-tuned for some comfort and good performance) but it's overall a fairly competent handler out of the box. The sedan feels different-- do they still have bigger rear swaybars with respect to the wagon? Maybe that's the wagon's whole problem...

I made only brief attempts to drive the Forester XT like a sportscar because it's quite obvious it isn't. For someone as this being their only sporty vehicle, I can see this being a big drawback. To me it's quite liveable as I have my real fun on two wheels.

When I posted previously, I commented a lot about the engines. I probably can't restate it quite the same way right now, months later, but the XT's 2.5L is wonderfully stout down low and in the midrange. I think any feeling you have of it being inferior to the WRX's 2.0L up top is mostly due to the WRX's soft bottom-end... The instrumented numbers should give credence to this opinion as well.

I personally wouldn't touch a WRX wagon for the same reason I am driving a '95 M3 and not a '02 WRX. The engine is pretty darned laggy. I know that stomping it produces a lot of smiles, and I've certainly never shyed away from "using" my vehicles to their full potential-- but I do drive reasonably most of the time, and the XT's 2.5L turbo is a LOT more flexible and friendly than the WRX's 2.0L. Besides the 25% displacement advantage, variable valve timing is also a huge feature.

That's why I'm keen to get that engine in the Legacy.

-c

lucien2

Got back from the dealer just now. I have to say the '04 seats are not a deal-breaker, and I like having the tach in the middle like that. I agree the engine is laggy, although it doesn't feel significantly slower under 3000 rpm than my current car. Over that, and, well, it's a whole new ballgame, isn't it? I'm not a motorcyclist, so I'm not going to be at all happy with the Forester XT's handling; it's just to great a compromise for me.

It looks more like a 2004 for me at this point. The DE dealer I emailed about the 2003 wagon came back with an offer of 2% over invoice minus $750....so I have decided that these internet sales managers are all on crack, and if we're going to start negotiating on a '03 from 2% over, then we're not negotiating at all. It's just insulting.

My only concern at this point is I am going to suffer buyer's remorse when the new Leg comes out, knowing full well I won't be able to afford it. *Shrug* Maybe that's what we trade the OB in on in 2-3 years for Kirsten. Jeez this is agonizing. Fun, but agonizing.

subearu

I too thought the 2.0 under 3k wasn't bad and felt pretty similar to the 'normal' response of my '00 Outback. But, I drove an AT WRX, I know the MT makes it a slightly different beast.

You going to do tires on the WRX? Putting some 17"s on the XT would change the handling a bit too.

-Brian

lucien2

I heard a rumor there might be some anthracite P1s floating around.... :-))

c_hunter

Yeah, these can be agonizing decisions. Aren't we lucky to agonize over stuff like this?

I have a little buyer's remorse -- I could have stepped up to an STi if I saved money for a couple months and forgone $2900 in tires, wheels, and other mods I've tacked on the WRX. Then again, I might have wanted to mod that too, and $32000 for an Impreza is getting crazy.

As far as the Legacy goes, we still don't know what we're getting and when we're getting it (ie, sport-tuned versions). Since bigger and better stuff always comes along, we probably all have buyer's remorse at some point.

If it was me, I'd jump on the WRX. Even if the new Legacy is awesome, the WRX will probably still be more fun to drive. I've been real happy with mine.

Craig

hypov

Loosh-
there might be a sedan OEM 20mm swaybar with your name on it floating around too ;-)

-Dave

twrx

Here is my opinion on the biggest advantage of the WRX--mileage! If you are just cruising on the interstate and really don't have the reason to dip into the WRX's performance then the EPA of 27 is a no brainer. In fact if you are in love with speedlimits then 30 mpg can be had. Otherwise blasting around town watching the boost gauge rise at every acceleration will still get you 20. I know than I have read of owners getting over the EPA on their XTs but in general I am assuming that the WRX will do better. I know that if you get a car as lively as either you are not buying it for mileage but a WRX sure is much more fuel efficient than I had expected. (93 ocatane please.)

TWRX and his "Sonic Boom" (how is that for a good nickname for my car?)

twrx

As long as the subject of test drives has come up--here is a car that I must concur with the magazines on. It is the RX 8. The handling of the car is out there in its own universe. Even the lower horsepower auto tran version feels really quick. Not much of a back seat but up front the driving positioin and seating is outstanding. Liked all the features--power seat, sunroof with enough head room for me. Very nice sound system and the whole thing looks so space age inside without being gimmicky. At its price I think it is going to give the Z a real run for its money. Oh yes, I love the styling. There is simply nothing else that even remotely looks like it. I like it from all directions and especially the rear where it is one of the few sports cars that to me looks as good without a wing as with one. I thought it looked pretty good in pictures but if you have not seen one you must. My wife wants to abandon her year old Solara for one.

TWRX

lucien2

if I didn't need the space of a wagon/hatch, I'd think about it (well and win the lottery)

locke2c

That's funny, I drove an RX-8 5spd a few weeks ago and was largely unimpressed.

- I thought it was gimmicky inside. Many new cars look similarly, though. .:barf:. No silver plastic, no funky controls or gauges, please. What's so wrong with black?

- Revs high, but really isn't all that potent for a claimed... what 238HP now? Overstated, I'm sure.

- Does handle fairly well, but nothing to get super excited about.

Go drive an S2000. I know it's different since it's a roadster and not a "four door sportscar", but the handling and powerplant are where the RX-8 should be. I think the raving is just a halo of the newness.

I don't care for the styling at all, though.

-Colin

twrx

Colin, I'd love to drive an S 2000 but have never had the chance. These are the guys that built the NSX after all. I have a friend with an NSX and he let me drive it back in September. That was the drive of a lifetime. I have often looked fondly at used S 2000's at local dealers but with my WRX and my Toyota pickup it is pretty hard to justify a third vehicle. Anyway it is my wife that wants the RX 8. It would definetly beat the heck out of the Solara she has now. Solara is a great "near" luxury car when maxed out like hers but sports car it isn't.

TWRX

paisan

I did drive one. And it is in no way an off-roader. Sorry, the "stats" may say off-road, but in real life, they aren't.

But hey, if everyone loves the emporer's new clothes... then who am I to argue.

Favorite "stock" off-roaders IMHO:
Jeep Wrangler
Isuzu Amigo(rodeo sport)
Isuzu Trooper
Isuzu Rodeo
Suzuki Samuri
Toyota 4-runner
Jeep Cherokee
Mitsubishi Montero
G-wagen

-mike

locke2c

Oh I'm sure an RX-8 would be an enormous leap in the correct direction coming from a Solara.

-c

rsholland

4-Wheel and Off-Road is comprised of a bunch of guys like you, who share similar beliefs in what an off-roader should be. Like you, they like solid axles, and don't like independent suspensions. They spent a week putting these vehicles through their paces, much of it off road. Did you do that?

Sorry Mike, but I'm with those guys on this one.

Bob