Hybrids in the News

falconone · November 2005

It's actually genius which is why all the other manufacturers are trying to bring hybrids to market. At the advent of the SUV craze it was quite easy for all the manufacturers to bring something to market. They just took a pickup truck and slapped a body around it and called it an SUV. This is different. TECHNOLOGY baby!! Gotta love it and Toyota and Honda have a HUGE jump start.

haefr · November 2005

"It's actually genius which is why all the other manufacturers are trying to bring hybrids to market."

"Genius", aka, "riding the gravy train at Japanese government expense".

explorerx4 · November 2005

gen 2's so gen 3 is announced. typical corporate marketing.

falconone · November 2005

...and its working! I wonder if Ford will license the next gen and call it a day.

gagrice · November 2005

Prius II is so wrought with problems, Toyota wants to say they have a completely new hybrid. They did that when the first Prius garnered a lot of complaints. Maybe 3 is a charm.

falconone · November 2005

Actually 3 is the current iteration. FYI... the current Prius in the US is MORE reliable than your TDI. I look forward to next year's CR evaluation to prove my point. The only issue was the software update. Why don't you let it go already?? Shall we post links to boards SOLEY devoted to VW lemons to get my point across??

falconone · November 2005

http://tinyurl.com/c9bj6

I hope it is successful. They can use a good break.

gagrice · November 2005

the current Prius in the US is MORE reliable

Tell that to the person stalled with a new Prius long after the software should be upgraded.

11/3/05 Prius still stalling.

AFTER TOYOTA'S RECALLING 75,000 PRIUS IN U.S., I TOOK MY 2005 PRIUS INTO TORRANCE TOYOTA(310-325-75000) TO HAVE THE SOFTWARE"GLITCH"REPAIRED. MICHAEL GALLAGHER(SERVICE ADVISOR) TOLD ME THERE IS ADDITIONAL GLITCHES AND NOW MY CAR IS INOPERABLE.

larsb · November 2005

Gary, "wrought with problems" are you serious? Do you not understand that there are about 100,000 of these on the roads in the USA and at most only a few hundred have had problems?

that is far from "wrought with problems" and not a higher ratio than any other newly designed car.

gagrice · November 2005

Has the Government investigated any 2004-2005 VW models for massive failures? The Prius has been investigated for the stalling and it is still happening on brand new Prii, sold since the recall by Toyota. I posted a dealers name that claims the Prius still has problems. You have any names of VW dealers that cannot figure out what is wrong with their cars? Maybe it is stupid techs at Toyota dealerships. That would be consistent with Toyota's very low customer service rating.

larsb · November 2005

quote gagrice-"Has the Government investigated any 2004-2005 VW models for massive failures?"-end quote

Probably not, but neither have they investigated the Prius for "massive failures."

The way that works is the govt accumulates issues, contacts the manufacturer, and works with THEM to determine the extent of the problem. Once a FIX IS IN HAND, they issue a recall.

Once again, let me say that, because some of the members here have a problem understanding that fact:

RECALLS ARE ONLY ISSUED WHEN A KNOWN FIX IS IN HAND.

falconone · November 2005

Actually VW has the worst record for customer service. This is why the Phaeton failed miserable. They can't sell high end cars because their dealerships suck big time. I wonder how the guy in BC is doing with his fleet of Prius. He's doing fine!!!! The software issue has been solved. As to VW... well...they just have to learn how to build cars around their great engines. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kirstie_H · November 2005

Unless VW is coming out with a hybrid that I'm not aware of, we need to re-focus this conversation back onto news about hybrid vehicles. Thanks!

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

falconone · November 2005

Hopefully they will!! Otherwise they are not going to be able to compete in the US market when Toyota/GM/Ford/Honda keep coming out with different hybrid models. Americans LOVE hybrids. Just imagine....a brand new type of technology and it has sold ~100,000 units in 2005 alone!!! People LOVE their Prii. Gotta love it!!!!! Don't forget what I said Kirstie... there is lots of participation here by anti folks who are truly jealous of the spotlight the Prius has taken.

moparbad · November 2005

Toyota hybrid news at Edmunds

Toyota is speeding up the debut of its third-generation gasoline-electric hybrid powertrain, a new system that is more compact and about 50-percent less expensive than the current version. The launch is scheduled for 2008, two years sooner than the one mentioned in September by Toyota president Katsuaki Watanabe, according to media reports.

I'm skeptical, however, if Toyota succeeds then I'm onboard for a Camry hybrid in my garage.

dewey · November 2005

there is lots of participation here by anti folks who are truly jealous of the spotlight the Prius has taken

Battery Size Envy? Freud would have field day out of that term!

backy · November 2005

You and me and a LOT of people! What a tremendous competitive advantage that would be for Toyota! I only hope they license the technology to others, as they did with Nissan with the older technology, so even more people can benefit from it.

kdhspyder · November 2005

What if.. with a smaller less costly system Toyota just decided to put the HSD in every 4c vehicle. Blam it's just in there.

Corolla, Prius, Camry. It becomes commonplace just like ABS and AC are now. IMO this next step in the spring with the advent of the HSD Camry is crucial to see if the main part of the buying public will take home a hybrid with little or no hesitation. Of course all the 'glitches' have to be solved so that this system is as bulletproof as the rest of the vehicle.

IF you desire more performance ala the HAH or the Hybrid Highlander then you might order the hybrid boost added to a V6 mainly for the performance feature.

PF_Flyer · November 2005

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/11/15/afx2339631.html

TOKYO (AFX) - Toyota Motor Corp, the world's second-biggest automaker, will mount a more fuel efficient and less costly hybrid engine on its vehicles from 2008, the Asahi Shimbun reported without citing sources.

falconone · November 2005

I hope they put it in their pickup trucks too!!

gagrice · November 2005

Toyota just decided to put the HSD in every 4c vehicle. Blam it's just in there.

You are leaving out a very important aspect of the whole hybrid scene. Parts are in short supply. Aisin has told Ford the most they can do for them is 24k units per year. Toyota has an interest in Aisin and there is a feeling they are putting the squeeze on Ford. Expanding manufacturing is not so easy when there are patents to contend with. You cannot just open up a new factory building an xyz widget that another company owns the patent on. Same goes for the batteries that are supposedly in short supply. It is like having a party for 25 people and only having one 6 pack of beer. If Toyota is coming out with a simpler hybrid design for 2008 I would be interested. The current design is far too complex.

larsb · November 2005

The "lack of parts" thing that Gary is harping on (man he gets on something and never lets it up) was a result of "demand questions" that have mostly been solved.

Toyota had contracted with just a few vendors (they like to use as few as possible) and since the demand was an unknown factor, no one was sure how many parts would be needed. Toyota, like any car company, does not like to stockpile parts for unbuilt cars - they like to receive their parts as close as they can to when the cars are built, thus reducing inventory requirements.

And the parts suppliers were not sure how many parts would be needed either, so in that environment, shortages CAN and DO happen in the business world.

No one will be short of the parts then need when demand is shown. I guarantee you that with 200,000 on pace to be sold in the USA in 2005, the parts suppliers and the car makers are doing all they can to meet the demand, and it's not IMPOSSIBLE to do.

They're not waiting for Moon Rocks to fall out of the full moon in order to build the batteries.

:shades:

kdhspyder · November 2005

Granted. Today parts are in short supply.

But I'm not speaking specifically next year or even in 2008 ( unless they know something about parts supplies that they aren't letting on yet ). I'm saying as a company strategy in 2008 the HSD is standard in every Prius ( obviously ) but also every Corolla ( say in 2008 ) and every Camry by 2010 for example.

Business is not a gentle process. If one company can leverage its weight and it's R&D to exclude others or make it difficult for others to compete, oh well. It happens everyday in every business. It also makes others search for alternate methods to compete and the whole market benefits in the long run.

dewey · November 2005

TOKYO (AFX) - Toyota Motor Corp, the world's second-biggest automaker, will mount a more fuel efficient and less costly hybrid engine on its vehicles from 2008, the Asahi Shimbun reported without citing sources.

Based on CNN the 2008 target is not as certain as the quote above:

Toyota has been pouring R&D resources into addressing the cost issue, but a spokeswoman said a target date for a third generation hybrid system had not been set.

"2008 is certainly a possibility, but we don't know that yet," she said.

CNN

gagrice · November 2005

No one will be short of the parts then need when demand is shown.

Ford suspects it may be getting squeezed out by its Japanese rivals. With the fall launch of the gas-electric Mercury Mariner, Ford is tripling its hybrid SUV lineup over three years. But its transmission supplier, Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., can boost deliveries by only 20 percent, to 24,000 transmissions annually.

Ford wants 100k transmissions annually, Aisin will only sell them 24k transmissions. Are you telling me that Ford can go to another manufacturer and have these patented transmissions built? I don't think so.

falconone · November 2005

Maybe Ford shouldn't have reverse engineered the Prius and developed their own hybrid system. I know... I know.. all about the license issues. Weird how Ford can design a hybrid SO close in design to the Prius and even use the same parts. I wonder if GM is having problem with parts for their Saturn Vue hybrid. Probably not.

larsb · November 2005

Car companies like Ford have a lot of pull. They will get all they need, mark it down. If they have a market for 40,000 hybrids, SOMEONE will provide them with the parts they need.

gagrice · November 2005

SOMEONE will provide them with the parts they need.

"there you go again" If it is easy for Ford to get the parts for the hybrids they want to build, why is it hard for Toyota to get the parts needed to keep up with the demand for the Prius? You always say it is parts are in short supply. When I show evidence that there is a shortage of parts that will slow the production of hybrids from Ford, you try to refute that. Is there not a larger market for the Prius than Toyota can meet? Seems if there is waiting lists there is a shortage. Or are you making my original case that Toyota is dragging their feet on the Prius?

larsb · November 2005

Toyota is ramping up their production, and have a plant in Tokyo City that is preparing to produce a Prius per minute.
They are also making plans to hybridize their entire car lineup.

Would they be spending/exerting effort on those two fronts if they were concerned that their part suppliers could not meet demand? I don't think so, not the most profitable car company in the world - they don't make that kind of mistake.

Ford was just merely making a political statement that they felt like they were being treated unfairly by some Asian vendors, and that might have really been true. The solution for Ford of course is to "look elsewhere" because there are plenty of companies outside of Asia that could and would probably be climbing over one another to help Ford solve their problem.

MY stand is that "hybrid carmakers will do whatever they need to do to meet future demand" in whatever way they can, and as more hybrids get sold, it gets easier to get the parts.

As mentioned, there apparently ARE some Toyota suppliers who cannot keep up right now, for whatever reason. They will either fix that or they will lose Toyota's business.

You can bet your bottom YEN that Toyota and Ford will get their parts to meet the demand - they are the 8000 pound gorillas in the room in this situation.

mirth · November 2005

Maybe Ford shouldn't have reverse engineered the Prius and developed their own hybrid system. I know... I know.. all about the license issues. Weird how Ford can design a hybrid SO close in design to the Prius and even use the same parts.

Bunch of FUD. Of course, Toyota would love for you to believe its true.

larsb · November 2005

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-11-16-car-prices-usat_x.htm

More debunking the false belief that Hybrids are "too expensive" for the average new car buyer.

HCH, Insight far below the average.
Prius TMV below the average.
HiHy, Escape, Accord slightly above the average.
rx400h not an economy hybrid.

falconone · November 2005

Then explain HOW they're vying for the same parts from Aisin??? Show some PROOF instead of saying FUD!!!!

gagrice · November 2005

Proud to be the world's first automaker to roll out a hybrid sport utility vehicle, Ford Motor Co. nurses dreams of selling tens of thousands of fuel-efficient, gas-electric vehicles by offering hybrid sedans and more SUVs.

But Ford faces shortages of crucial parts from components manufacturers -- which are longtime suppliers, and in some cases affiliates, of Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co., the leaders in hybrids.

Ford suspects it may be getting squeezed out by its Japanese rivals. With the fall launch of the gas-electric Mercury Mariner, Ford is tripling its hybrid SUV lineup over three years. But its transmission supplier, Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., can boost deliveries by only 20 percent, to 24,000 transmissions annually.

"Aisin, which is minority-controlled by Toyota, has interesting shareholders they have to answer to," said Mary Ann Wright, director of Ford's hybrid programs research and advanced engineering.

Aisin Ford

falconone · November 2005

I think you misunderstood my message. My intent was that Ford should have created a hybrid system which used unique components NOT similar to the HSD. What a STUPID move on their part to try and compete with Toyota knowing FULL WELL that they own a minority interest in Aisin. They should find another manufacturer. I don't see GM crying.

gagrice · November 2005

If Ford and Toyota built their hybrid system around one of the Aisin transmissions, it is likely they would cross engineering paths. I am still curious how that outfit in Florida fits into the HSD system. I agree that Ford should find other suppliers. It is not easy if someone holds a patent and retains manufacturing rights. It takes a long time to develop new technology. Then you spend a huge chunk of time researching to find out if it infringes on some one else's patent. Ford may not have thought that far ahead.

falconone · November 2005

EXACTLY!!! Honestly...would you design a system around a transmission that is partially owned by the largest producer of hybrid vehicles. Ford screwed up and now they're paying the price.

gagrice · November 2005

That looks to be true. Have you seen the Ford TV ads. They are pushing the hybrid thing big time in that ad. If NYC cab companies jump on the hybrid bandwagon, Ford could be sucking wind. I guess we just keep watching.

falconone · November 2005

Most of the ads from Ford recently tout and touch on their environmental sensitivity. They feature Mr. Ford speaking about hybrids/ethanol etc. Not sure if that is the route they should take. Time will tell. Wonder what the VUE will have up its sleave. If it is priced right and gets good mileage, it will be a great hit for GM. BTW... got a quote on a nicely equipped Jetta TDI for 28k (with NAV).

mirth · November 2005

The fact of the matter is that currently all the hybrid part suppliers are Japanese. Years ago when they were planning the Escape hybrid, how would Ford be able to come up with a strategy to use suppliers that didn't exist? It's only now that hybrids have taken off that other suppliers are stepping up.

If Ford had had to spend the extra time and money to produce the Aisin parts themselves, or wait for another supplier to pop up, they would never have produced the Escape hybrid, and you would be complaining about how they didn't jump on the hybrid bandwagon early enough.

larsb · November 2005

The way a free competetive market works is that if someone cannot supply a part to an 800 pound gorilla company, that big company CAN AND WILL find a supplier for the part.

There are plenty of non-Asian companies with the know-how and the desire to help build 1 million hybrid cars.

mirth · November 2005

...they don't exist today, and they certainly didn't exist 4-5 years ago.

Toyota could afford to wait for Aisin several years ago because their only competition at the time was the weak Honda Insight. Ford couldn't afford to wait without getting left behind even further. Now that they are in the game and hybrids are taking off, other suppliers will step in without Ford having to subsidize them.

falconone · November 2005

The bottom line is that Ford should not be complaining. Read my posts prior. You DON'T rely on a supplier where your major competitor owns a minority interest in THAT supplier. DUMB BUSINESS. GM will bring the VUE to market without reliance on Aisin. I am not sure what parts they're using, but I don't see them complaining and
whining.

Burger King was complaining because McDonalds was hogging all the burger buns. DUH.... That's the point.

misterme · November 2005

"Burger King was complaining because McDonalds was hogging all the burger buns"

That's a good one. LOL

mirth · November 2005

The bottom line is that Ford should not be complaining.

Well, we agree about that. I'm sure they were trying to generate some anti-Toyota feeling, but it just comes off as whining.

falconone · November 2005

Nah... just to get a sound bite in the media and it sure worked. Didn't nothing to help the situation.

gagrice · November 2005

Watched a trailer on this comedy special for TBS. Lots of banter about environmental issues. The Prius owners were poking fun at the Hummer crowd and vice versa. Not sure of the broadcast times. One cute one "Yeah he drives his Prius into a huge heated garage that uses enough energy to supply Lithuania".

http://www.thecomedyfestival.com/

gagrice · November 2005

This could be getting out of hand here. Maybe they should just put slots in the race track and run electric cars with the drivers in the pits controlling them. I wonder if Fry said all that with a straight face.

Formula One should be prepared to switch some time in the future to more efficient and environmentally friendly hybrid cars, according to BAR Honda boss Nick Fry.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10097433/

larsb · November 2005

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/hybridwatch01.html

Now we have a lady who is accusing Toyota of fudging the MPG calculations in the Prius computer to show higher mileage than the car really gets....

Did she forget her Prozac that morning or what? What a wacko !!

mirth · November 2005

...I should sue Nissan because the MPG readout on my Maxima is always about 3-4MPG higher than what I actually get. Somehow I don't think Toyota is quaking in its booties over this one.

dewey · November 2005

The following paragraphs form the consumer affars article you linked is very interesting and very true:

Indeed, Sandra is not alone in her assertions. Some independent test data suggests hybrid cars routinely get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets.

This comes as no surprise to automotive experts. Data from Consumer Reports indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports'

Hybrids in the News

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