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Comments
As you say, the Prius attracts a unique customer- one who throws value out the window in favor of absolute fuel economy and emissions. If that makes them happy, fine with me.
For me, a Prius is just a car that gets good fuel economy and low emissions, but gives up value, luxury, acceleration, ride, and other features I want. At 16-18k, the base 22k+ version would be a good value.
Let's keep this one for a discussion of news items on hybrids.
Thanks!
The credibility factor is tarnished slightly by the AWD mention. I can't think why, if you are bringing something new to the market like this, you would pull AWD into the mix. AWD would slow down development since electric motor drive to the rear wheels as well as the front would need significant consideration at this stage. I would be surprised if a 3-cyl 1.1 litre could be benefited by AWD in this early stage of development. I remember the designers of the original EV1 show car used twin 57 Hp motors upfront but production models retreated to a single 137Hp motor driving with a fixed gear ratio into a conventional FWD transaxle. Somehow I would not be surprised to find a similar sort of compromise to be made here.
Of course this Mitsubishi project will be the first series hybrid and I for one will be very interested to see how it stacks up.
Re the Hyundai Accent post, this looks to be like another Honda IMA system with its single 16Hp electric motor. But will it also be using a CVT is the big question here. The thing is Toyota and Mitsubishi can accomplish the important CVT function electrically with their systems whereas Honda and (may be) Hyundai are electing to do this mechanically which to me kinda seems the wrong direction. If anyone wishes to discuss we could take this over to the Advanced Hybrid engineering..board. T2
Where did you see that detail? Could you please post the link to the news item or other reference? Thanks.
http://tinyurl.com/dwbbz
Wasn't Gary just recently saying that hybrid car prices were NOT going to come down?
Canadian 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid price $28,500
Canadian 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid price $25,800
$2,700 price reduction.
For the American market, the '06 edition is about $1k more than the '05.
2005 HCH w/ CVT $21,415 (includes destination)
2006 HCH w/ CVT $22,400 (includes destination)
Prices indicated are from Edmunds.
I think the Canadian '05 edition HCH at over $28.5k CND is RIDICULOUS compared to the '05 US edition at $21.4k USD.
Considering $1 USD is about $1.2 CND, the '05 Canadian edition should have had an MSRP of around $25.6k CND. That $28.5k was just nuts.
These are the freaks looking for better mileage in an already fuel-efficient and emissions-friendly car.
I take offense at that! It is FUN to maiximize fuel mileage on a vehicle.
At today's CAD exchange rate the new HCH is $22,247 USD. Is that with or without NAV? I wonder if the Canadian dealers are gouging like some of the dealers in the Bay area?
Maybe Honda did not sell any at that price. The truth is the 2006 HCH price in the US is about a grand more comparably equipped. The Prius is about $700 more across the lineup. So NO hybrids have not come down yet. I still say they will not until the feeding frenzy is over. You can get discounts on the HAH & RX400h in most parts of the country including CA.
T2
Actually, $28,500 down to $25,800 in Canada IS a price reduction, last I checked.....:D
The article I remember about the Canadian pricing of the 2005 HCH was that dealers were gouging and $28k CAD was the going price. You are saying that the MSRP in Canada has gone from $28,500 for the 2005 HCH to $25,800 for the 2006 HCH? If that is the case and the 2006 HCH has gone up about a grand in the US, it would be interesting to find if the exchange rate between CAD & the YEN has changed radically or Honda is trying to unload the HCH in Canada.
Maybe you have a logical answer for the price increase in the US and a big price decrease in Canada.
My guess is that Honda wants to stimulate sales. At the current conversion rate, one Canadian I heard from said the car was overpriced in 2005 anyway, so my guess is that Honda brought it down to put it in line with the USA price, and to try and stimulate sales.
Bold new Civic is your No. 1
The exciting new Honda Civic has been voted Auto 1 Car of the Year by readers of Auto Express.
The stylish hatchback picked up twice as many votes as its nearest rival, the Porsche Cayman, in winning the accolade. Thousands of readers took part in the poll through the magazine, our award-winning website and on our stand at the recent MPH 05 motor shows in Birmingham and London. The Civic will now go into a grand final in February to find the overall European Auto 1 champion, with the results announced at the Geneva Motor Show the following month.
"This is a country area," said Snow Hill resident Larry Wilkinson, who drives a Chevy pickup for its utility and said he isn't interested in a hybrid right now. "People don't really understand what hybrids are. They're still into pickups and muscle cars."
"I think I've heard of them," said William G. Cropper, who lives a few miles outside of Snow Hill. "Do they look different than regular cars? I think they have them in California, but I don't know if I've seen any around here."
"The hybrids are great for city traffic because they get the best fuel economy in the city," he said. "It makes sense for people sitting on beltways, but we're more open here and there isn't as much light to light traffic, so they aren't as needed."
This indicates another misunderstanding of Hybrids. For example, in the above-mentioned situation, an area which is "mostly open and not as much light to light traffic," hybrids would be PERFECT because the hybrid owner can coast and cruise and not be hurried by traffic and use all the hybrid tools to achieve GREAT gas mileage.
Anyone living in an area like that, GET THYSELF A HYBRID and you will have the chance to achieve FANTASTIC MPG numbers !! :shades:
1) allowing the engine to turn off when the car is at a stop or at low speeds.
2) reclaiming energy through regenerative braking.
and
3) allowing the car to use a smaller engine because of eliectric assist during acceleration.
In a wide open area where you use cruise control, 1 and 2 become pretty useless. That leaves the smaller engine. As a result, you see cars like the Civic hybrid & Prius getting better highway results than traditional cars, but cars like the Accord Hybrid getting very little advantage in "wide open" driving vs the Traditional ICE version. In no case is there anywhere near the gain that you see in city driving mileage.
My driving is almost all City/Urban driving, with speeds rarely over 50 MPH. I do have areas where I can drive for 3-5 miles without stopping, which I consider "fairly open" and I sometimes but rarely use the cruise to help the MPG.
With hybrids, you can "feather the pedal" and keep real-time MPG up higher than a straight cruise control, which applies fuel at a consistent level but not necessarily with fuel economy in mind.
And in your comment on the Accord Hybrid - remember (if you already knew) that is is rated 30 MPG CITY and 37 MPG Hwy, whereas the comparable "gas only V6 accord" is rated 21 city and 30 hwy.
So you do not lose your advantage at all in the Accord Hybrid by having "open areas."
You also read that this happens to all vehicles. That is not the case. Most vehicles vary only slightly due to cold or extreme heat. I have not seen one MPG difference in my VW TDI now that the AC is not running hard and long.
I have concluded that the hybrids would best be suited for Hawaii where the temp varies about 15 degrees year round and gas is more expensive. Although last month gas was cheaper in Hawaii than CA. That was a first for me.
If I already knew???
I checked Honda.com, and guess what? Only one of the 4 numbers you gave is right.
EX V6 w/5spd auto: 20/29
Hybrid w/5spd auto 29/37
So that's a 45% boost in city driving, and only a 27% boost in highway driving. And part of that highway gain is from non-hybrid components such as lightweight aluminum wheels.
Well THERE'S the problem right there. For most of the folks in the rural areas mentioned in the article, 'fairly open' equates to see 1 car about every mile or so and driving 15-25 miles without stopping.
In urban areas, hybrids will give a fairly their owner a fairly large bump in actual mpg over a 'normal' vehicle. But out on the REAL open road (where regenerative braking is not used because the BRAKES are not used, engine off while stopped is not used because you are NOT STOPPED), hybrids DON'T offer as much of an increase in mpg over their 'standard' counterparts.
Actually, I would be willing to believe that most (but not all) of the bump in actual highway mileage is due more to better aerodynamics and low rolling resistence tires used on hybrids rather than the powertrain design.
And regardless of "how" the hybrid achieves better MPG in the hwy test, it DOES it nonetheless.
I wonder how many suckers will go for this!!
And regardless if the Accord Hybrid does not offer "as much an increase" in Hwy mileage, the fact remains that 37 MPG versus 30 MPG is a large savings when you look at a 5-7 year span.
105,000 miles at 30 MPG = 3500 gallons of gas
105,000 miles at 37 MPG = 2838 gallons of gas.
Lsst I checked, many "rural dwellers" are pretty smart people, and they can see the benefit.
Second, HOW the HAH achieves better highway mileage IS relevant. IF the better highway mileage is due more to aerodynamic improvements/tire selection than the powertrain, wouldn't this be good info to know? Wouldn't the owner of a regular Accord like to know if he can substantially improve his highway mileage by simply using the same tire selection as the HAH? Does the HAH use the same final drive ratio as the regular Accord?
I'm not going to argue that a 7 mpg bump (if the real-world mileage is this good) is substantial or not. Yes, IMO it would be terrific. But I'm curious enough to wonder just WHAT aspects of the HAH give it this bump on the highway rather than just chanting some 'hybrid is green, hybrid is good' mantra over and over.
I think cities should buy the cheapest vehicles for their employees. To make a green statement with buying hybrids is just plain dumb. Buy a fleet of Hyundai Accents and they'll be quite sufficient and reliable.
This brings up a point of contention I have with hybrid cars in general. Manufacturers alter their Hybrid models to obscure the actual cost and benefits of hybrid systems. How much of the Accord Hybrid's highway fuel economy improvement is from the Hybrid system, and how much if from the cylinder deactivation and lightweight aluminum wheels? How much of the cost? On the civic, the difference in sticker from an EX to a Hybrid is $2600. But how much of that is from the addition of the hybrid system, and how much is from the addition of the climate control system? How much did Honda save by taking out the sunroof? Then we have the Prius, a car so radically different than anything else Toyota makes, it's impossible to get any idea what it would cost, or what its mileage numbers would be with a traditional powertrain.
I believe hybrid technology is extremely promising, but am not yet convinced that it is economically viable at this time. I will be convinced when I see a hybrid vehicle that is exactly the same as an ICE vehicle in every aspect except the powertrain. (and that doesn't have a more advanced engine like the Accord Hybrid) When this happens it will be possible to know exactly how much the hybrid system costs, and how much gas it saves you. Until then, I remain skeptical.
As a side note, I'm still waiting for any one of the automakers to announce plans for a large sedan hybrid suitable for use as a mainstream taxicab. That, to me, would seem like the place where a Hybrid system would really shine, and would be most economically viable.
Good point. Who does more Stop n Go than a taxi cab driver? If Bill Ford wants to put the money where his mouth is he could build a Crown Vic hybrid. No one is talking about offering a suitable car for the taxi business. A hybrid station wagon would be good for the taxi business. Or why hasn't Toyota offered their hybrid mini-van in the US? I think the lack of rear seat headroom in the Prius makes it a marginal offering as a cab in the USA. That and the high price, low volume have made it less than viable for taxi companies. The only place I have seen Prius cabs is in Victoria BC.
On your point about a hybrid that would be suitable for taxi use, don't taxi companies buy the most stripped, cheapest versions of large sedans as it is? I can't see them springing for hybrids, as it wouldn't do anything to attact more customers, and based on the current cost differential, a hybrid taxi probably wouldn't pay for itself from the better fuel economy alone. And if I'm not mistaken, most cabbies are independent contractors and are the ones who pay for the gas.
In 50% city/50% freeway I used to get about 30 mpg when the temp was above 50 F. Now that temp runs 20 F, and because I leave my car on to heat before I sit in it, my mpg in this scenario has dropped to 26 mpg.
I have never gone below 26 mpg for a tank under any circumstance.
Hope that helps....these are real data points. Not EPA.
I know in SD a lot of the Crown Vic cabs are running CNG. I don't think it saves them any fuel costs. They may get something for lower emissions. They have to cost more than a stripped sedan. So far it looks like you have to offer some incentive, tax break, HOV, green image etc to sell the hybrids. They are a hard sell on mileage alone to anyone that really pencils it out.
Thanks. That's one data point. Now (of course) I'm wondering what a normal V6 Accord gets under cruise at 65mph.
You also have to ask what would a V6 Accord with VCM get for highway mileage.
I'm also curious to know if the HAH and normal V6 Accord have the same final drive ratio or does the HAH have a slightly taller gear for better highway mileage?
I guess what I'm really trying to find out is how does the hybrid system boost mileage on the highway where throttle input is essentially fixed and both the hybrid system and the normal V6 are running 100% on the ICE?
I understand that the IMA kicks in to provide a boost under passing situations, etc. but, if the driver is cruising along at 65 mph trying to milk the mileage (whether they are driving a normal Accord or a HAH), then they aren't going to be doing much passing, so where is the benefit to highway mileage for the hybrid system?
Admittedly I will say that what I know about diesels is from these forums. There may be differences in process/mechanics of which I am not familiar so I'm open to being educated.
The Hybrids are gasoline-powered ICE's also so they and the 'pure' ICE's are subject to the same laws of nature, physics, etc.
All gasoline powered vehicles are
less efficient in winter;
less efficient with the A/C or heater on;
less efficient going up hills and against the wind;
less efficient in heavy accelerations;
less efficient in standing traffic.
I'm certain that there are other situations that exist also.
The hybrids mitigate the losses in some of these situations.
To your statement it's partially correct but misleading in that the percentage differences between a 'pure' ICE and a hybrid ICE are the same. The difference is that the percentage is being applied to a higher baseline in the case of the hybrid thus the absolute 'loss' in efficiency is signigicant in actual numbers.
A 10% loss due to cold engines and differing fuel in winter resulted in my two previous 2.2L Camry's going from 33 mpg Hwy in spring/fall to 30 mpg in winter. The Prius numbers which I am in the process of verifying seem to be 50 mpg spring/fall going to 45 in winter.
50mpg vs 33 mpg in spring/fall is a 50% gain in FE;
45mpg vs 30 mpg in winter is a 50% gain in FE.
It remains a 50% improvement in FE no matter the conditions.
If the diesel is not subject to the same physical and natural limits I'm open to being convinced.
But I can get 28 mpg in the city easily (temp > 50 F), where the VCM and taller gear is of little or no use. What does a V6 Accord owner get in the city in the real world?
In any case, I did not buy the HAH for mileage alone or to save the earth. I wanted a new gadget, plus improved mileage, plus acceleration. It does accelerate fantastic.
But all of you who think hybrids pay for themselves by saving money on fuel have to stop fooling yourselves because the savings aren't great enough.
Several cities are now forgoing the purchase of hybrids because money is tight and can't justify the added expense.