Hybrids in the News

PF_Flyer

Kind of a semi-silly story, but it does afford the chance to start a new topic about hybrids in the news.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040504/ap_on_bi- _ge/hybrid_car_rescues_1
This is the one about hybrids being a possible high voltage danger to rescue workers at accident scenes. Certainly another factor to consider in rescue work, but not something that everyone shouldn't be able to adapt to over time.

The idea of this topic is simply to report on sightings of hybrid stories making the general news rather than at strictly automotive sites. I know i've been hearing more about hybrids on news reports lately. This should be a way to indirectly track how commonplace the new technology is becoming...

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usbseawolf2000

Power supply from the battery is cut off by the curcuit breaker even before the airbags deploy. The power cables are under the body frame and not inside the doors. Take a look, the lighted line is suppose to be the electric wire.







Dennis

usbseawolf2000

The power cables are clearly under the chassis, not inside the door.



Dennis

mirth

This was on thecarconnection.com today:

 PRNewswire

The Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid vehicle has many safeguards to help ensure safe operation for drivers and protection of emergency response professionals in the event of an accident. An Associated Press article and other reports indicated that emergency workers who cut through the doors of a hybrid vehicle may receive an electric shock. That information is not correct. The power cables carrying electric current are automatically shut down in the case of an accident. Furthermore, power cables are not located near the doors of the vehicle - they are located well outside of any area likely to be accessed by emergency crews.

azstan

Thanks a lot for the updated information about emergency response. This is precisely why I subscribe to and read these postings. An owner of a particular car is able to give the best information.
 This board has provided me with the information on the 2004 Prius and was a major contributor in my decision to buy one.
  Thanks everyone. I really enjoy this car and enjoy reading about it.

usbseawolf2000

Enjoy!

Dennis

djasonw

Thanks... you seem to bring a weath of information to the table. How refreshing!

backy

Hyundai says it will offer a hybrid-power option in one of its U.S. car lines for 2006. No decision yet on which model, but we'd guess it will be either the new Elantra or perhaps the smaller Accent being redesigned for '05.

This was on a web site that I expect Edmunds.com would think is a competitor; it sounds a lot like "Consumer Reports" but isn't.

My bet is on the Elantra, since I saw pics on a Hyundai web site some time ago of a prototype gas/electric hybrid using the previous-generation Elantra as a base. But a hybrid Accent would be great too, because it could mean a sub-$15,000 hybrid and the new Accent looks pretty nice.

PF_Flyer

Here's a link to a story out of Cincinati about a guy less than pleased with the real world mileage performance. Maybe he should have waited before getting the MO MILES vanity plates...

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_top- - head_1
There's even an Edmunds quote in the story...

Drivers rarely see the actual EPA-rated mileage in the real world, according to John DiPietro, road-test editor of automotive website Edmunds.com. DiPietro says most drivers will get between 75 to 87 percent of the rated mileage, with individual variations based on driving habits and traffic route. "If a new car gets less than 75 percent of its EPA rating, then it should be retested."

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rfruth

Even GM is talking about hybrids - snip - General Motors Corp. will showcase hybrid and fuel cell vehicles at a grassroots competition that begins today in Burlington, New Jersey and ends here Tuesday http://tinyurl.com/yrumj

quasar4

Nope. Just miserable driving habits.

julie_bug

I was talking to a friend of mine and he mentioned that he heard that as some of the first hybrids near 100k miles, major overhauls are needed. He said that it's starting to show that hybrids that get 'up there' in miles aren't able to handle it and a ton of work needs to be done to keep it up to par. Has anyone heard of this?

I've also heard that every couple of years a new battery needs to be purchased, and i've heard that they cost $2000-$3000! Is this true?

TIA

xcel

Hi Quasar4:

___In regards to miserable fuel economy driving habits, you are absolutely, 100% correct! A simple drop to 55 mph (you remember, the speed limit in most areas the last time I looked ) would save this country 10 - 20% of its oil appetite overnight. Another 5 - 10 % could be saved with mandating higher pressures in ones tires. Will America do it? Not a chance unfortunately

___Julie_Bug, you are somewhat misinformed. There are a number of Insighter’s and Prius I owners now breaching 100K without a problem. At some point the pack will show its age but 100K is a bit short for that scenario imho. The ICE and mechanical drivetrain is just as repairable as any other so that should not be an issue … There are some rather pricey items under the hood (actually underneath or behind the rear most passenger area for the most part) and if they go later on in a Hybrid’s life, the best thing would be to scrap it as it would be far more expensive to repair then to simply walk away from it.

___May I also ask where you heard of these problems because the various Hybrid boards I read outside of Edmunds aren’t bringing up anything similar in the least.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

No, the batteries don't need replacing every 2-3 years. They are designed to last far longer than that. I have read somewhere that there is no case yet of a battery pack on a Prius wearing out, and they have been in production since '97. For the Prius in particular, the battery pack has an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, and 10 years/150,000 miles in the states that follow the CA emissions regulations. The current replacement cost for a full battery pack is in that $2000-3000 range you mentioned, but costs are declining and will continue to go down as hybrid sales increase.

usbseawolf2000

"By taking four awards, Prius Hybrid Synergy Drive has won more trophies in one year than any other engine in the Awards' history."

Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive Takes Top Honors in Four Categories:
- International Engine of the Year 2004
- Best New Engine
- Best Fuel Economy
- Best Engine 1.4-liter to 1.8-liter

Hybrid Synergy Drive captured the grand prize with the highest score ever recorded in the history of the competition.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040526/sfw068_1.html

Since it is International Engine of the year 2004, HSD tops the best diesel engines as well. Best fuel economy because HSD is the most efficient, period. Superior!! Sorry for the over excitement, it feels good when automotive professionals agrees with me. =D

Dennis

kornklan

Dennis,
The March issue of AEI has an in depth article on the 2004 Prius. They rated it as the best engineered car of the year. The article starts on page 58. On page 99 they have an article on factory that builds the Prius and goes into great detail about the assembly line and the people who build it. I've got one on order and can't wait to get my hands on it.
 Al

usbseawolf2000

I just joined membership online and I now have access from Aug 2002 to May 2004 online. Time to read the March issue. =D

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"Assembly line 2 has a daily production rate of 902 cars, of
which 421 are Priuses. The plant operates on a two-shift day,
22 working days per month, currently including public holidays
on overtime, producing about 9000 Priuses per month to meet
brisk demand in the U.S. and Japan. European-spec cars are
now rolling out of the line as well."

Not enough Prii. =D The magazine has load of information.

Dennis

Kirstie_H

It's "Energy Theme Week" in the House of Representatives. Does this mean another hybrid tax credit is on the way?
http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0406/06/a16-174484.htm

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nippononly

headline this week: there are now 20,000 owners on a waiting list for a Prius. They cite dealers that are no longer taking orders because they are too backed up and only receive one per month.

Question is, what is going on here? That number of Prii is 40% of the first-year projected sales. Either Toyota has artificially limited the production numbers so much it has shot itself in the foot, or it has massively underestimated the demand for such a vehicle and should raise the price 25-30% so it can afford to build more of them.

Imagine what demand it might unleash if you could actually walk onto a dealer's lot and drive off in a Prius. Plenty of people, I am sure, are turned off by waiting lists, and probably turn elsewhere for a car when they hear about them.

john1701a

They underestimated demand.

And there is nothing they can do to speed up the delivery process either. Third-Party supply contracts have them locked in to specific deliver amounts. Bummer, eh?

Realistically though, they are still way ahead of the rest of the industry. At least they had a product developed to deal with the sudden and unexpected gas price increase.

By the way, Ford will only be offering 30,000 hybrids for the 2005 model year.

JOHN

nippononly

article this week talks about how automakers are insisting that the high gas prices are not affecting peoples' buying decisions, but car dealers claim they ARE seeing a shift to more fuel-efficient vehicles, or at least away from real gas hogs. Where I live, it has been hovering at $2.40/gallon for 87 octane for quite some time.

They should drop whetever else is built at that factory and double Prius production. Gas will dip in price after the summer - they should grab the iron while it is hot. Surely they could find a source of extra parts delivery too.

john1701a

> Surely they could find a source of extra parts delivery too.

Sorry, no cigar. Some parts are quite unique (for example, the battery-pack modules). No one else has the COPYRIGHT to make them.

Thankfully, the components are interchangable, so they can be shared among several models of vehicle. That means the mass-production, high-volume ability is very realistic. But even in the computer industry, the fastest response to a grand-scale shortage (like the LCD recently) is 3 years.

JOHN

Sylvia

A magazine reporter would like to find car buyers who considered an SUV, but ended up going with a regular car because of gas mileage concerns. He's not looking for hybrid buyers necessarily, just folks who rejected SUVs because gas prices are so high.
Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime phone number and a few details about your decision by Monday, June 14, 2004.

Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

usbseawolf2000

"They should drop whetever else is built at that factory and double Prius production"

Prius is produced in Tsutsumi plant assembly line 2 along with Camry, Lexus ES330 and Japanese Allion/Premio mid-size sedans. Assembly process is tightly integrated to produce Prius every-other-car sequence. This process allows a smooth work flow to roll out a car every 61 seconds.

Source: Automotive Engineering International Magazine (March 2004)

Dropping whatever else would lower productivity from the assembly line 2. Toyota needs to build a new assembly plant just for hybrids, and design a new assembly process to achieve what you are asking. I believe, the way Toyota currently boosting Prius production is by going overtime with three shifts from the line 2. That means, they are also forced to produce more Camrys, ES330s, and Allions. I wouldn't be surprise if there are discounts on those cars.

Dennis

midnightcowboy

> Third-Party supply contracts have them locked
> in to specific deliver amounts. Bummer, eh?

WHAT? Where did Toyota ever say that??

nippononly

well, the world could probably bear a few more Camrys as the price for increasing Prius production! :-)

Seriously, though, you are right about building a new factory just for hybrids. The demand is obviously there to sell these things at a somewhat higher price and profit from each sale. And they have to strike while the iron is hot - ten years from now, there will be some other fuel efficiency tech just over the horizon, and a heck of a lot more competition in hybrids from other automakers. Now is the time. On my way to Yosemite last weekend, I passed several gas stations where 87 was over $3/gallon. Gas prices will stay high for the time being, I am sure. Now is the time.

Sylvia

but 2 of the discussions from the Hybrid Vehicles board are on the Top 10 active list on the TH front page.

xbrit

"Ford will only be offering 30,000 hybrids for the 2005 model year."

Where did you read that? The numbersa I have seen are that the eventual production capacity for Escape hybrid is 15,000 to 20,000 per year. But they won't get to that level for some time. Only 4,000 will be delivered in calendar year 2004, and I'd guess at the most 7,000 in the first half of calendar year 2005.

As a result, the wait time for an Escape hybrid is probably 12 months right now.

john1701a

> Where did you read that?

It was in a recent press release from Ford... which is yet another deviation from their original plan.

JOHN

midnightcowboy

John read it on the Prius forum LOL

The real story ...

Ford To Boost Hybrid Escape Production
DETROIT, June 3, 2004; Reuters reported that Ford Motor Co. hopes to boost production capacity for its yet-to-be-launched Escape hybrid sport utility vehicle because consumer interest is high, the automaker's chairman and chief executive said on Thursday.

Sylvia

A reporter is looking for residents of states other than California who drive hybrids. Please contact jfallon@edmunds.com by Wednesday, June 16, 2004 with your daytime contact info and a few lines about your hybrid.

Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

john1701a

Why didn't you provide a source for your "real" information? Of course, it doesn't mention a value anyway... just vague.

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01564449

That article clearly shows an even lower production quote.

JOHN

usbseawolf2000

Also from Automotive Engineering International Magazine:

"The new Prius is made up of 1940 components and parts ...

The plant receives the major hybrid components from the other Toyota plants and specialist suppliers, including the gasoline engine from the Kamigo plant; the transaxle, propulsion motor and generator unit from the Honsha plant; the power control unit (inverter) from the Hirose plant; the high-voltage, nickle metal hydride storage battery from Panasonic EV Energy; and the aluminum high-voltage harness, electronically controlled brake system components, and instrument panel (IP) components from other suppliers. These components have all been tested and their functions ensured by the respective plants and suppliers."

It will be safe to say that shortage of one part out of 1,940(total) will make the shortage of Prius, either it is the inverter, motor, ECU microchip, LCD touch screen, etc... We don't know how many of those parts are unique to hybrids and ramping up production is not at luxury as traditional vehicles.

Dennis

midnightcowboy

That is basically true for any car. The all use a thousand parts or so and if any one critical part is in short supply then the production will suffer. However, Most carm nafacturer that have any sense do project planning and define critical path including input parts and have multiple suppliers. The only reason Prius might be limited is if the HSD technology is so specifi that ther are single source suppliers. If so, heaven help the poepl that do experience a part failure.

When I first read it ,I thought it said the new Prius was made from 1940 ( the year Nineteen hundred forty) I thought wow a car from technolgy that is 64 years old, I am impressed LOL.

Denis tahnls for you information.

YMMV,
MidCow

carguy1234

Why is Toyota spending so much on advertising the Prius, when it is already in such short supply?

I've been seeing Prius ads all over the place lately.

Is it just some PR move (so that people think Toyota actually cares about the environment)?

midnightcowboy

Okay let's try this again. I know you like to use the word "vague" to others, but I figured you could identify the source Reuters or even look up with google or alltheweb "Ford Hybrid Production"

First , I think Ford is more aggressive and bottom line oriented than Toyota. From a business perspective, I think Ford as well as many manufacturers were unsure how well the public would accept Hybrids so they held off production. Now that the price of gas has gone up over $2 and is even $3 in some areas. SUV sales are starting to fall and people are looking for economy; hybrids are the obvious answer. Ford realizes this, well maybe not Marty Collins, but the real executives within Ford do. Ford will ramp up immediately and meet the demand. Toyota ,could have done this on the Prius and moved faster on the Highlander, RX400h, but they are just too conservative.
Bill Ford Jr. ( notice the last name) says: "“We are looking at increasing capacity ... because we think it will be sold out,” Bill Ford Jr. told an investment conference in New York. reference #2 below You see Bill Ford Jr. is the Ford chairman and chief executive and Marty Collins is only the Ford division general marketing manager.

Now some references:

Reference #1 article referred to in #33 that you said was vague:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/06/03/198403.html

Reference #2 Another reference to increased production from MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5136654/

Reference #3 Triple China production:
http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/08/news/international/ford_china.reu- - t/index.htm

By the way Toyota marketing appears clueless, The have blitzed the media with advertisements about the Prius, when they are selling all they can make. H'mm maybe Toyta should be spending money on increasing production and finding alternate source for parts in short supply, rather than spending marketing dollars.

YMMV,

MidCow

john1701a

> maybe Toyta should be spending money on increasing production and finding alternate source for parts in short supply

Why rush the short-term?

Their goal is the same as mine, focus on long-term. So abruptly altering plans to provide a quick fix makes no sense.

Toyota has from the start sold Prius at project market-price, not current market-price. To suddenly increase production, by finding alternate ways of getting supplies, does not come cheap. That would force them to accept a clear loss or to increase the price of the vehicle. Neither of those options make any sense. Why would any business intentionally do that?

LONG-TERM is and always has been the goal. That means taking the time to carefully build the infrastructure, not letting short-term market changes interfere with that.

JOHN

john1701a

> I've been seeing Prius ads all over the place lately.

Without details, "all over the place" is meaningless.

Anywho, looking closely at the only ads I've encountered recently, none of them are actually for Prius. They were all for HSD. Picturing a Prius only makes sense, being the premiere vehicle with HSD and the MotorTrend "car of the year" plus having recently won 3 more engineering awards.

So why is Ford advertising their hybrid, knowing that all of the ones available for 2004 are already sold out?

And why does Honda focus their advertisements on the MPG of the manual-transmission hybrid, even though some dealers only carry the automatic?

JOHN

weid4

The WSJ run an article on the status of the Prius in yesterday's (6/10) paper. The focus was on too much demand relative to supply and how various dealers across the country are taking advantage of the imbalance by overcharging. The article also mentioned that Toyota plans to pull or otherwise limit advertising to avoid pulling people into dealers only to be turned away. Makes sense to me.

The dealer angle is frustrating, but more because people are willing to pay the excessive amounts. It would be nice if Toyota would work to keep some of these dealers in check, though (the article mentioned one dealer buying a Prius at auction for over MSRP, so you can only imagine what they hope to get for it via ebay or ?). Others smarter than me can argue the merits of supply and demand relative to pricing, but I respect our local dealers for sticking to MSRP. Just my two cents.

john1701a

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-10-diesel-vs-hybrid_x- .htm

What does a 500-mile highway trip have in common with normal, everyday driving? In other words, a diesel was provent to do well with cruising-only type driving. But what about mostly a daily-commute type driving (lots of stop & slow traffic)? A full hybrid like Prius thrives.

> 11.1 gallons into the 11.9-gallon tank. That would indicate 38 mpg, far short of the 51 mpg government rating. The car's trip computer told me it had been getting 51.7 mpg.

Single-Tank measure is grossly inaccurate at times, when you have a bladder in the tank. Prius does. This fact alone invalidates his results. A multi-tank average is the only way to measure properly (unless you install a flow-meter). And... I have 3.8 years of data clearly showing the displayed value averages within 2 MPG of actual.

So he actually ended up getting somewhere around 49.7 MPG on that trip. That's over 5 MPG better than the 44 MPG recorded for the diesel.

JOHN

midnightcowboy

Great factual(you know measured data) real world article>. The Truth hurts! How come you consider anything that says anything against the Prius is either vague or inaccurate or incorrect. The guy filled the tank full with 11.1 gallons for 422 miles or as he stated 38.0 miles per gallon. Now let's assume that the mileage was really 51 mpg and that the previous tank fillup was not filled full. If you divide 422 by 51 you get 8.2745 gallons. Now if that was all bladder 11.9 -8.2745 then you have a bladder loss of 3.6255 gallons which seems extreme. Let's be fair the guy before did have a maximum bladder contraction problem and was 1.5 gallons short so it was actually 11.9-1.5 or 10.4 gallons that is was filled up with before. Let's give a big benefit of doubt and subtract the 1.5 from the 11.1 fill-up and you get 9.6 gallons which gives you 43.95 miles per gallons. WOW that is what real world people are getting, not the EPA estimates of 60/51 except for thos few that drive slow for high mpg.

YMMV but facts don't lie,

MidCow

moparbad

Your excuses are falling on deaf ears.

It appears that the mpg computer on the Prius is grossly inaccurate.

moparbad

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-11-hybrids-fuel-econo- my_x.htm

quote- So many people have complained about disappointing fuel economy of gas-electric hybrid cars that the federal government is telling automakers to consider putting more realistic mileage labels on their cars or do a better job warning buyers that they won't get the advertised mileage.-end

Even Toyota admits the mpg is less in real world -
quote- "Most of our cars get 10% to 15% less than the EPA (rating) in the real world," says Toyota spokesman Mike Michels. "A 10% to 15% variance looks a lot bigger on a 55-mpg (hybrid) car than on (a gas-power) one that gets 15 or 20." -end

xcel

Hi All:

___I like the additional information included after the real world mileage numbers not being met as explained by the EPA rep after the Toyota rep’s 10 -15% remarks …

Grundler says manufacturers can publicize any fuel economy numbers as long as they are no higher than what the vehicles receive from EPA. "They would simply print a different label based on information they have developed."
 
Hoping to clarify things for automakers, EPA is taking the unusual step of circulating this statement: "Long-standing EPA policy allows manufacturers to voluntarily use lower fuel-economy label values when they believe that a vehicle may be inappropriately represented by the EPA-calculated label."

___This was news to me given I have always read that the EPA numbers on the sticker were the only numbers that could be posted as has been posted in previous Prius II discussions.

___And back to the discussion of a 10 - 15% overstatement of the Prius fuel economy … How does he explain away an almost 50% overstatement? 55 vs. 39 mpg in the Hybrid vs. Diesel test? Personally, I am waiting to hear that someone has achieved 60 mpg in an all city environment in a Prius II myself. The 3X I have been in the Toyota dealership discussing the Prius II, the salesman have instantly mentioned 60 mpg. The same item at the auto shows with a Toyota rep on the pedestal mentioning 60 mpg like it was the Holy Grail or something. Maybe the sales people and reps have never driven a Prius II for any length of time ;-)
 
___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

john1701a

> It appears that the mpg computer on the Prius is grossly inaccurate.

It's not though, and I have an enormous amount of data to prove it.

I also have a bunch of data showing you that can easily add over 2.5 gallons after "full" is reached.

JOHN

john1701a

> facts don't lie

But by ignoring some, you can mislead... like not acknowledging that highway-only cruising isn't representative of typical driving.

Fact is, you can't accurately measure capacity based on a single fill, especially if you can't even proven the tank was full to begin with.

An average over several tanks is the only honest way to measure. Not bothering to do that shows an insincere effort to properly test. That's why some go to the trouble to install a flow-meter instead.

JOHN

moparbad

John- Your data may be the most misleading of any available.

Ignoring the data of other Prius drivers you can mislead some to believe mpg results are higher than typical.

The typical news about hybrids recently is that they obtain lower than posted mpg and that even so people are lined up to buy them.

eheading

I have to agree with John about the accuracy of the computed mpg in the Prius. In my 2003 model, over 7000 miles, the actual calculating with actual gallons purchased, is about 2 mpg less than what I read on the touch screen.

As far as I'm concerned, to determine real mileage on ANY car or rec vehicle, you need to take a long term average. On any of my vehicles I can get as much as a 40-50% variance in fuel economy between tankfuls.

Ed Headington

john1701a

> Ignoring the data of other Prius drivers you can mislead some to believe mpg results are higher than typical.

But since I don't actually do that, what's your point?

Remember, quite a number of times now I have mentioned that even though I am averaging 54 MPG, the fact that some owners are averaging upper 40's is perfect fine with me.

The reports of those getting below 40 MPG are quite rare, and they pretty much completely cancel out the reports of some owners getting upper 50's.

Face it, the overall average works out to around 50 MPG.

JOHN

shado4

> But by ignoring some, you can mislead... like not acknowledging that highway-only cruising isn't representative of typical driving.

Boy, John, that's extraordinarily vague.

Please define typical driving. A "typical" interstate trucker spends the majority of his time on the highway. A "typical" regional salesperson could spend hours each day driving on the highway. Heck, the majority of my daily work commute is spent on highway-only cruising at speeds in excess of 65+ MPH. For me, that's typical.

So, what really defines "typical driving"? And do you have any facts or figures to back up your claims?