Hybrids in the News
Kind of a semi-silly story, but it does afford the chance to start a new topic about hybrids in the news.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040504/ap_on_bi- _ge/hybrid_car_rescues_1
This is the one about hybrids being a possible high voltage danger to rescue workers at accident scenes. Certainly another factor to consider in rescue work, but not something that everyone shouldn't be able to adapt to over time.
The idea of this topic is simply to report on sightings of hybrid stories making the general news rather than at strictly automotive sites. I know i've been hearing more about hybrids on news reports lately. This should be a way to indirectly track how commonplace the new technology is becoming...
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040504/ap_on_bi- _ge/hybrid_car_rescues_1
This is the one about hybrids being a possible high voltage danger to rescue workers at accident scenes. Certainly another factor to consider in rescue work, but not something that everyone shouldn't be able to adapt to over time.
The idea of this topic is simply to report on sightings of hybrid stories making the general news rather than at strictly automotive sites. I know i've been hearing more about hybrids on news reports lately. This should be a way to indirectly track how commonplace the new technology is becoming...
Mazda Mania
Liven up your evening and join your fellow enthusiasts every Tuesday from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET for our Mazda Mania Chat!
The chat room opens 15 minutes before the scheduled chat time, so come early and get a good seat! Hope to see YOU there on Tuesday!
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Dennis
Dennis
PRNewswire
The Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid vehicle has many safeguards to help ensure safe operation for drivers and protection of emergency response professionals in the event of an accident. An Associated Press article and other reports indicated that emergency workers who cut through the doors of a hybrid vehicle may receive an electric shock. That information is not correct. The power cables carrying electric current are automatically shut down in the case of an accident. Furthermore, power cables are not located near the doors of the vehicle - they are located well outside of any area likely to be accessed by emergency crews.
This board has provided me with the information on the 2004 Prius and was a major contributor in my decision to buy one.
Thanks everyone. I really enjoy this car and enjoy reading about it.
Enjoy!
Dennis
This was on a web site that I expect Edmunds.com would think is a competitor; it sounds a lot like "Consumer Reports" but isn't.
My bet is on the Elantra, since I saw pics on a Hyundai web site some time ago of a prototype gas/electric hybrid using the previous-generation Elantra as a base. But a hybrid Accent would be great too, because it could mean a sub-$15,000 hybrid and the new Accent looks pretty nice.
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_top- - head_1
There's even an Edmunds quote in the story...
Drivers rarely see the actual EPA-rated mileage in the real world, according to John DiPietro, road-test editor of automotive website Edmunds.com. DiPietro says most drivers will get between 75 to 87 percent of the rated mileage, with individual variations based on driving habits and traffic route. "If a new car gets less than 75 percent of its EPA rating, then it should be retested."
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I've also heard that every couple of years a new battery needs to be purchased, and i've heard that they cost $2000-$3000! Is this true?
TIA
___In regards to miserable fuel economy driving habits, you are absolutely, 100% correct! A simple drop to 55 mph (you remember, the speed limit in most areas the last time I looked
___Julie_Bug, you are somewhat misinformed. There are a number of Insighter’s and Prius I owners now breaching 100K without a problem. At some point the pack will show its age but 100K is a bit short for that scenario imho. The ICE and mechanical drivetrain is just as repairable as any other so that should not be an issue There are some rather pricey items under the hood (actually underneath or behind the rear most passenger area for the most part) and if they go later on in a Hybrid’s life, the best thing would be to scrap it as it would be far more expensive to repair then to simply walk away from it.
___May I also ask where you heard of these problems because the various Hybrid boards I read outside of Edmunds aren’t bringing up anything similar in the least.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive Takes Top Honors in Four Categories:
- International Engine of the Year 2004
- Best New Engine
- Best Fuel Economy
- Best Engine 1.4-liter to 1.8-liter
Hybrid Synergy Drive captured the grand prize with the highest score ever recorded in the history of the competition.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040526/sfw068_1.html
Since it is International Engine of the year 2004, HSD tops the best diesel engines as well. Best fuel economy because HSD is the most efficient, period. Superior!! Sorry for the over excitement, it feels good when automotive professionals agrees with me. =D
Dennis
The March issue of AEI has an in depth article on the 2004 Prius. They rated it as the best engineered car of the year. The article starts on page 58. On page 99 they have an article on factory that builds the Prius and goes into great detail about the assembly line and the people who build it. I've got one on order and can't wait to get my hands on it.
Al
Dennis
which 421 are Priuses. The plant operates on a two-shift day,
22 working days per month, currently including public holidays
on overtime, producing about 9000 Priuses per month to meet
brisk demand in the U.S. and Japan. European-spec cars are
now rolling out of the line as well."
Not enough Prii. =D The magazine has load of information.
Dennis
http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0406/06/a16-174484.htm
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Question is, what is going on here? That number of Prii is 40% of the first-year projected sales. Either Toyota has artificially limited the production numbers so much it has shot itself in the foot, or it has massively underestimated the demand for such a vehicle and should raise the price 25-30% so it can afford to build more of them.
Imagine what demand it might unleash if you could actually walk onto a dealer's lot and drive off in a Prius. Plenty of people, I am sure, are turned off by waiting lists, and probably turn elsewhere for a car when they hear about them.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And there is nothing they can do to speed up the delivery process either. Third-Party supply contracts have them locked in to specific deliver amounts. Bummer, eh?
Realistically though, they are still way ahead of the rest of the industry. At least they had a product developed to deal with the sudden and unexpected gas price increase.
By the way, Ford will only be offering 30,000 hybrids for the 2005 model year.
JOHN
They should drop whetever else is built at that factory and double Prius production. Gas will dip in price after the summer - they should grab the iron while it is hot. Surely they could find a source of extra parts delivery too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sorry, no cigar. Some parts are quite unique (for example, the battery-pack modules). No one else has the COPYRIGHT to make them.
Thankfully, the components are interchangable, so they can be shared among several models of vehicle. That means the mass-production, high-volume ability is very realistic. But even in the computer industry, the fastest response to a grand-scale shortage (like the LCD recently) is 3 years.
JOHN
Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime phone number and a few details about your decision by Monday, June 14, 2004.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
Prius is produced in Tsutsumi plant assembly line 2 along with Camry, Lexus ES330 and Japanese Allion/Premio mid-size sedans. Assembly process is tightly integrated to produce Prius every-other-car sequence. This process allows a smooth work flow to roll out a car every 61 seconds.
Source: Automotive Engineering International Magazine (March 2004)
Dropping whatever else would lower productivity from the assembly line 2. Toyota needs to build a new assembly plant just for hybrids, and design a new assembly process to achieve what you are asking. I believe, the way Toyota currently boosting Prius production is by going overtime with three shifts from the line 2. That means, they are also forced to produce more Camrys, ES330s, and Allions. I wouldn't be surprise if there are discounts on those cars.
Dennis
> in to specific deliver amounts. Bummer, eh?
WHAT? Where did Toyota ever say that??
Seriously, though, you are right about building a new factory just for hybrids. The demand is obviously there to sell these things at a somewhat higher price and profit from each sale. And they have to strike while the iron is hot - ten years from now, there will be some other fuel efficiency tech just over the horizon, and a heck of a lot more competition in hybrids from other automakers. Now is the time. On my way to Yosemite last weekend, I passed several gas stations where 87 was over $3/gallon. Gas prices will stay high for the time being, I am sure. Now is the time.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where did you read that? The numbersa I have seen are that the eventual production capacity for Escape hybrid is 15,000 to 20,000 per year. But they won't get to that level for some time. Only 4,000 will be delivered in calendar year 2004, and I'd guess at the most 7,000 in the first half of calendar year 2005.
As a result, the wait time for an Escape hybrid is probably 12 months right now.
It was in a recent press release from Ford... which is yet another deviation from their original plan.
JOHN
The real story ...
Ford To Boost Hybrid Escape Production
DETROIT, June 3, 2004; Reuters reported that Ford Motor Co. hopes to boost production capacity for its yet-to-be-launched Escape hybrid sport utility vehicle because consumer interest is high, the automaker's chairman and chief executive said on Thursday.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01564449
That article clearly shows an even lower production quote.
JOHN
"The new Prius is made up of 1940 components and parts ...
The plant receives the major hybrid components from the other Toyota plants and specialist suppliers, including the gasoline engine from the Kamigo plant; the transaxle, propulsion motor and generator unit from the Honsha plant; the power control unit (inverter) from the Hirose plant; the high-voltage, nickle metal hydride storage battery from Panasonic EV Energy; and the aluminum high-voltage harness, electronically controlled brake system components, and instrument panel (IP) components from other suppliers. These components have all been tested and their functions ensured by the respective plants and suppliers."
It will be safe to say that shortage of one part out of 1,940(total) will make the shortage of Prius, either it is the inverter, motor, ECU microchip, LCD touch screen, etc... We don't know how many of those parts are unique to hybrids and ramping up production is not at luxury as traditional vehicles.
Dennis
When I first read it ,I thought it said the new Prius was made from 1940 ( the year Nineteen hundred forty) I thought wow a car from technolgy that is 64 years old, I am impressed LOL.
Denis tahnls for you information.
YMMV,
MidCow
I've been seeing Prius ads all over the place lately.
Is it just some PR move (so that people think Toyota actually cares about the environment)?
First , I think Ford is more aggressive and bottom line oriented than Toyota. From a business perspective, I think Ford as well as many manufacturers were unsure how well the public would accept Hybrids so they held off production. Now that the price of gas has gone up over $2 and is even $3 in some areas. SUV sales are starting to fall and people are looking for economy; hybrids are the obvious answer. Ford realizes this, well maybe not Marty Collins, but the real executives within Ford do. Ford will ramp up immediately and meet the demand. Toyota ,could have done this on the Prius and moved faster on the Highlander, RX400h, but they are just too conservative.
Bill Ford Jr. ( notice the last name) says: "“We are looking at increasing capacity ... because we think it will be sold out,” Bill Ford Jr. told an investment conference in New York. reference #2 below You see Bill Ford Jr. is the Ford chairman and chief executive and Marty Collins is only the Ford division general marketing manager.
Now some references:
Reference #1 article referred to in #33 that you said was vague:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/06/03/198403.html
Reference #2 Another reference to increased production from MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5136654/
Reference #3 Triple China production:
http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/08/news/international/ford_china.reu- - t/index.htm
By the way Toyota marketing appears clueless, The have blitzed the media with advertisements about the Prius, when they are selling all they can make. H'mm maybe Toyta should be spending money on increasing production and finding alternate source for parts in short supply, rather than spending marketing dollars.
YMMV,
MidCow
Why rush the short-term?
Their goal is the same as mine, focus on long-term. So abruptly altering plans to provide a quick fix makes no sense.
Toyota has from the start sold Prius at project market-price, not current market-price. To suddenly increase production, by finding alternate ways of getting supplies, does not come cheap. That would force them to accept a clear loss or to increase the price of the vehicle. Neither of those options make any sense. Why would any business intentionally do that?
LONG-TERM is and always has been the goal. That means taking the time to carefully build the infrastructure, not letting short-term market changes interfere with that.
JOHN
Without details, "all over the place" is meaningless.
Anywho, looking closely at the only ads I've encountered recently, none of them are actually for Prius. They were all for HSD. Picturing a Prius only makes sense, being the premiere vehicle with HSD and the MotorTrend "car of the year" plus having recently won 3 more engineering awards.
So why is Ford advertising their hybrid, knowing that all of the ones available for 2004 are already sold out?
And why does Honda focus their advertisements on the MPG of the manual-transmission hybrid, even though some dealers only carry the automatic?
JOHN
The dealer angle is frustrating, but more because people are willing to pay the excessive amounts. It would be nice if Toyota would work to keep some of these dealers in check, though (the article mentioned one dealer buying a Prius at auction for over MSRP, so you can only imagine what they hope to get for it via ebay or ?). Others smarter than me can argue the merits of supply and demand relative to pricing, but I respect our local dealers for sticking to MSRP. Just my two cents.
What does a 500-mile highway trip have in common with normal, everyday driving? In other words, a diesel was provent to do well with cruising-only type driving. But what about mostly a daily-commute type driving (lots of stop & slow traffic)? A full hybrid like Prius thrives.
> 11.1 gallons into the 11.9-gallon tank. That would indicate 38 mpg, far short of the 51 mpg government rating. The car's trip computer told me it had been getting 51.7 mpg.
Single-Tank measure is grossly inaccurate at times, when you have a bladder in the tank. Prius does. This fact alone invalidates his results. A multi-tank average is the only way to measure properly (unless you install a flow-meter). And... I have 3.8 years of data clearly showing the displayed value averages within 2 MPG of actual.
So he actually ended up getting somewhere around 49.7 MPG on that trip. That's over 5 MPG better than the 44 MPG recorded for the diesel.
JOHN
YMMV but facts don't lie,
MidCow
It appears that the mpg computer on the Prius is grossly inaccurate.
quote- So many people have complained about disappointing fuel economy of gas-electric hybrid cars that the federal government is telling automakers to consider putting more realistic mileage labels on their cars or do a better job warning buyers that they won't get the advertised mileage.-end
Even Toyota admits the mpg is less in real world -
quote- "Most of our cars get 10% to 15% less than the EPA (rating) in the real world," says Toyota spokesman Mike Michels. "A 10% to 15% variance looks a lot bigger on a 55-mpg (hybrid) car than on (a gas-power) one that gets 15 or 20." -end
___I like the additional information included after the real world mileage numbers not being met as explained by the EPA rep after the Toyota rep’s 10 -15% remarks
Grundler says manufacturers can publicize any fuel economy numbers as long as they are no higher than what the vehicles receive from EPA. "They would simply print a different label based on information they have developed."
Hoping to clarify things for automakers, EPA is taking the unusual step of circulating this statement: "Long-standing EPA policy allows manufacturers to voluntarily use lower fuel-economy label values when they believe that a vehicle may be inappropriately represented by the EPA-calculated label."
___This was news to me given I have always read that the EPA numbers on the sticker were the only numbers that could be posted as has been posted in previous Prius II discussions.
___And back to the discussion of a 10 - 15% overstatement of the Prius fuel economy How does he explain away an almost 50% overstatement? 55 vs. 39 mpg in the Hybrid vs. Diesel test? Personally, I am waiting to hear that someone has achieved 60 mpg in an all city environment in a Prius II myself. The 3X I have been in the Toyota dealership discussing the Prius II, the salesman have instantly mentioned 60 mpg. The same item at the auto shows with a Toyota rep on the pedestal mentioning 60 mpg like it was the Holy Grail or something. Maybe the sales people and reps have never driven a Prius II for any length of time ;-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
It's not though, and I have an enormous amount of data to prove it.
I also have a bunch of data showing you that can easily add over 2.5 gallons after "full" is reached.
JOHN
But by ignoring some, you can mislead... like not acknowledging that highway-only cruising isn't representative of typical driving.
Fact is, you can't accurately measure capacity based on a single fill, especially if you can't even proven the tank was full to begin with.
An average over several tanks is the only honest way to measure. Not bothering to do that shows an insincere effort to properly test. That's why some go to the trouble to install a flow-meter instead.
JOHN
Ignoring the data of other Prius drivers you can mislead some to believe mpg results are higher than typical.
The typical news about hybrids recently is that they obtain lower than posted mpg and that even so people are lined up to buy them.
As far as I'm concerned, to determine real mileage on ANY car or rec vehicle, you need to take a long term average. On any of my vehicles I can get as much as a 40-50% variance in fuel economy between tankfuls.
Ed Headington
But since I don't actually do that, what's your point?
Remember, quite a number of times now I have mentioned that even though I am averaging 54 MPG, the fact that some owners are averaging upper 40's is perfect fine with me.
The reports of those getting below 40 MPG are quite rare, and they pretty much completely cancel out the reports of some owners getting upper 50's.
Face it, the overall average works out to around 50 MPG.
JOHN
Boy, John, that's extraordinarily vague.
Please define typical driving. A "typical" interstate trucker spends the majority of his time on the highway. A "typical" regional salesperson could spend hours each day driving on the highway. Heck, the majority of my daily work commute is spent on highway-only cruising at speeds in excess of 65+ MPH. For me, that's typical.
So, what really defines "typical driving"? And do you have any facts or figures to back up your claims?