A quote from the USA Today article referenced in previous posts:
"While in stop-and-go traffic, the Prius often ran on battery power, driving home the point that it is most efficient in crawling, urban traffic."
So the test DID include stop-and-go driving situations and was not all "highway-only cruising" as some have insinuated. And still, the diesel Jetta came out ahead of the hybrid Prius.
"So the test DID include stop-and-go driving situations and was not all "highway-only cruising"
How many of those stop-and-go miles out of the total 500+ miles? When you drive from city to city, you have to get out of the city first right? Why are some, so blind to see that the overall test is a long distance trip? Some rely on self fulfilling prophecy and acknowledge only the lowest mpg that Prius achieves. Is it due to the recent media stories about hybrids fall short of the claim? Or is it, the doubt from FUD that goes, "there! you see? hybrids are just hype. I was right all along" type of comfirmation?
The millions of people that get caught in heavy commute traffic represent a far more average driving experience than a trip that is almost entire cruising. Their speeds very from high, to stop & slow, to suburb, to regular city driving.
I applaud the author of the USA Today article for sharing his real world experience with the Jetta and the Prius. It's a shame that some people view his conclusions through "millennium silver" colored glasses and must take every opportunity to discredit any and all negative news concerning the Prius.
When it comes to fuel economy, yes, I believe hybrids are just hype and not worth the premium dollars. I don't care about emissions, and all this talk about drying up oil supplies is left wing propaganda, IMO. Gas prices in my area have actually gone down more than 10 cents a gallon since last month!
Hysterical "the world is coming to an end" rubbish.
> The millions of people that get caught in heavy commute traffic represent a far more average driving experience than a trip that is almost entire cruising. Their speeds very from high, to stop & slow, to suburb, to regular city driving.
What about the millions of people that don't have to deal with heavy commute traffic? Don't they count?
Until I see factual proof of your definition of "typical driving", I'll just treat it as only your opinion.
> Heck, the majority of my daily work commute is spent on highway-only cruising at speeds in excess of 65+ MPH. For me, that's typical.
A vague answer, interesting.
You seem to imply that you do *NOT* use that vehicle for anything else but driving to and from work, exclusively for cruising.
I seriously doubt that is actually the case. I bet you actually drive to other places too, and at speeds much slower than 65+ MPH, like the gas station... stores... food... entertainment... bank... church... family... friends... etc.
> I believe hybrids are just hype and not worth the premium dollars
Since that is just a SHORT-TERM comment, it really isn't an issue.
Of course they cost a premium NOW, high-volume production hasn't begun yet. Heck, Toyota only makes a limited amount of a single model of HSD hybrid now. Just wait until it becomes a large percentage including many, many models.
> I don't care about emissions
All those suffering from breathing-related problems resent that statement. It is best to avoid making comments like that.
> You seem to imply that you do *NOT* use that vehicle for anything else but driving to and from work, exclusively for cruising
Please read my message again and note the word majority.
Here's my situation. I live within one mile of a major highway interchange. During that mile I can stop for gas, buy groceries on the way home from work, visit the bank, go to a mall. It's all there within 1 mile of my home.
To get to work I drive to the interchange, get on the highway, and drive 16 miles at 65+ MPH. I get off the highway and drive less than 1/4 mile to get to the office.
Every work day I spend 32 miles on the highway at 65+ MPH, and less than 3 miles of stop-and-go driving. If I can help it I don't drive on the weekends. So, yes, the majority of my daily commute is spent on highway-only cruising.
"I applaud the author of the USA Today article for sharing his real world experience with the Jetta and the Prius. It's a shame that some people view his conclusions through "millennium silver" colored glasses and must take every opportunity to discredit any and all negative news concerning the Prius."
I believe the author's report is real and that he drove both cars. It is not about discrediting the report but rather scientific validity of the testing method. The report left a question mark with Prius mpg 27% margin of error. It is that error that needs to be discussed.
You should see how some tried to discredit International Engine of the Year 2004 and Best Fuel Economy award in Diesel vs Hybrid board, msg # 514 to # 527.
When it comes to fuel economy, yes, I believe hybrids are just hype and not worth the premium dollars. I don't care about emissions...
I see, HSD probably is not for you because it was designed with low emission in mind, even if it has to give up fuel economy. Do you also care about drivetrain response time, smooth power delivery, silence pure electric mode, etc...? Do you ever wonder why Prius with 76hp engine with electric motors beats 2.4L 160hp Camry in 30-50mph test by almost one second? The key is consistent responsive power delivery that HSD provides.
Do you ever wonder why Prius with 76hp engine with electric motors beats 2.4L 160hp Camry in 30-50mph test by almost one second? The key is consistent responsive power delivery that HSD provides.
___First off, the only place I have seen the 30 - 50mph data in print is from Toyota’s own press pages. Secondly, the lowly 4 banger Camry is much faster to 30 and much faster to 60. This can be found from the car magazine data. Thirdly, the Camry is not only far less costly, but is larger and has a much more comfortable ride. Lastly in regards to the Camry, did you also know the Camry is available in a PZEV format as well?
___And back to the USA Today article. I don’t know if the Diesel VW vs. the Prius II was a great test or not given there may have been a tail wind for one vehicle and a head wind for the other. I have seen that speculated with prevailing winds in those areas favoring the VW from an Insight forum just this morning.
___The item that doesn’t appear to be faked however is that the Prius II took 11.1 gallons. This isn’t a 4 or 5 gallon fill but an almost max capacity fill so saying the computer errors will even themselves out tank to tank seems to be trying to cover something up. 11.1 gallons is far more fuel then John has ever placed into his Prius II so how would he know anything about it? I do wonder how full the tank was at the beginning of the trip however. The error is simply too large. Many Prius II owners are saying 2 -3 mpg high on the LCD vs. real world, not 13.5 + mpg.
> did you also know the Camry is available in a PZEV format as well?
In only very LIMITED areas though. It is NOT available nationwide.
> 11.1 gallons is far more fuel then John has ever placed into his Prius II so how would he know anything about it?
Your first post back is a personal attack. That's bad.
I have a receipt showing I pumped 10.7 gallons into my Prius when I first picked it up. And that was without even topping off! A difference of 0.4 of a gallon is hardly "far more".
When you focus a discussion on a particular person and make negative comments specifically to discredit, that is considered a personal attack... especially when you've been informed of it already.
Please keep the topics focused on the technology, not a person.
> 10.7 gallons? What does this mean then?
The dealer allows you to pump the gas into your new car yourself. They just pay for it afterward. So I did, and they did.
But I already answered that very same question you asked on the "up to the chore" topic. Why are you asking it again?
The gas-tank warning light flashed after 422 miles. I drove 10 miles to the next gas station and filled up, putting 11.1 gallons into the 11.9-gallon tank. That would indicate 38 mpg, far short of the 51 mpg government rating.
--Hey Einstein, if you drive 422 miles and then drive an additional 10 miles to get to the next gas station, that's a total of 432 miles --not 422 miles. 432/11.1 = 38.9 mpg or 39 mpg after rounding up (the Jetta numbers were rounded up).
--Gee, if he can make such a bone-headed mistake when writing an article in a publication read by millions, then I don't have much confidence in his ability to record the correct mileage numbers...much less perform a scientifically sound study (although in his defense, I don't think his intent was ever to perform a rigorous scientific test...or at least I hope not because he would have failed miserably).
Prius is comfortable, a festival of technology and unquestionably cleaner-burning than the VW can be today with only high-sulfur diesel fuel available. But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius...
--How can you proclaim such a fuel economy verdict when you are clueless as to how much gas the Prius actually used?? If the bladder resulted in a 1.5 gallon differential, then the Prius may have gotten a solid 45 mpg vs. about 44 for the Jetta. I also find it surprising that he was able to pump in 11.1 gallons. From personal experience the most I've been able to pump in on an "empty" tank was 10 gallons with it more typically being 9 and change.
--Furthermore, if this was a diesel vs. hybrid contest, the playing fields were not equal. Doing a highway mileage test only gives one side of the fuel economy story. A fair comparison should have also included city mileage results where the Prius has the advantage. I'm sure if the author had only done an "around the town" test and proclaimed the hybrid the decided winner based on its superior fuel economy, diesel fans would be screaming foul!
--With so many factors influencing fuel economy (How much gas did you start out with? What were the weather conditions? Was there a head wind? How cold was it? What was the topography of the first route vs. the second route? How many stops were made along the way? What were traffic conditions like?, etc., etc.), and with none of them accounted for, the margin of error is so great that it makes the outcome practically meaningless.
--C'mon folks, this article is based on junk science. To hold it up as the gospel truth is an injustice.
When we did our Insight, Civic-Hybrid, Prius, Jetta TDI, Navigator comparisons, we were within eye-shot of each other all 1,200 miles. That equalized the driving-condition factors as much as realistically possible.
And back to the discussion of a 10 - 15% overstatement of the Prius fuel economy How does he explain away an almost 50% overstatement? 55 vs. 39 mpg in the Hybrid vs. Diesel test?
--Ah Wayne, how do you massage the numbers to get an "almost 50%" overstatement?? 55 mpg is a 41% increase over 39 mpg. Forty-one percent is hardly "almost 50%"!
--Secondly, you're using the combined EPA number of 55 mpg rather than the more appropriate 51 mpg figure. This was a test of highway mileage wasn't it? Using the EPA's 51 mpg number, the "overstatement" drops to 31% and that's before even taking into account the bladder differential, which brings me to my next point...
--The infamous bladder. Since the reporter (aka Mr. Science) was clueless as to how much gas was in the tank at the start of his trip, we'll never know the true fuel economy. If we assume that the bladder reduced the tank capacity by 1.5 gallons, then the actual mpg was 45.
--Hey, guess what the overstatement becomes now....... that's right --about 13%.........Ta-Daaaaaaaa!!! Last time I checked, 13% was in the range of 10 to 15% Go figure
___Even though I believe the article comparison is flawed in any number of areas. The new TDI owner I know drives like a bat out of hell and receives 37 mpg. I asked if he has measured and calculated and he said just at the pump with miles driven/gallons purchased. If I drove the Insight that hard, I would be lucky to get 60 from her. This coming from someone that is almost doubling average Prius owner’s mileage.
___John1701a, Toyota let you fill up your car? So what did you do, go to the station with their credit card? All I received when I picked up my last Toyota was a checklist and one of the items on the list was that it had a full tank in it. When I purchased the MDX last year, the dealer had it filled before the wife pulled it off the lot. When I purchased the Corolla 2 years ago, the dealer had it filled before I pulled it off the lot. When I purchased the Ranger last year, the dealer had it filled before I pulled it off the lot. When I purchased the Insight, the dealer also had it filled before I pulled it off the lot. I didn’t have anything to do with any fill so I was very surprised to hear that you did given the Bladder issue in colder temps makes 10.7 gallons highly unlikely. You did mention something about documentation to prove > 10 gallon fills but when I looked at your spreadsheet, all I saw were entry’s < 9.5 gallons?
___As for the personal attacks, why didn’t you step time after time when one of your counterparts ruined the “Up to the Chore” thread with his name calling? Did your feelings get hurt because I posted your name in regards to you not filling up w/ the amount you stated you had data for?
___Hi Quasar4. Is 41% is a lot closer to almost 50% then the 13% you are discussing? Is 41% not a lot closer to almost 50% then a bit over 25%? Maybe if I used 33%, there would be some depth to your statements. So what is it, almost 50% or just 13%? I think the article is full of it given anyone can get > 39 out of a Prius II. But if you would like to dissect 41% as a poor description of almost 50%, where do you want to go next? Weren’t you calling someone Einstein in the previous page? If so, maybe I can refer to you as Brainiac from now on.
___Mr. Science and the bladder If the bladder caused it to be 1.5 gallons to low to begin with, how did he fill it with 11.1 gallons afterwards? Ta-Daaaaaaaa yourself.
___Finally, there is almost no way anyone could get < 40 mpg in a Prius II at 72 mph unless there was a strong head wind, the tires were deflated, toe had at least ½” added to it, they were driving in over 2” of snow or temps below 0 degrees, the driver was riding the brakes, or they were using 15-W50 to name a few possibilities.
--Ha Ha Ha...Wayne, thanks for the chuckles!! If I had a weak bladder, I would have wet myself from laughing so hard at your attempt to put a good spin on such a weak position. While we're on the subject of bladders...
Mr. Science and the bladder If the bladder caused it to be 1.5 gallons to low to begin with, how did he fill it with 11.1 gallons afterwards? Ta-Daaaaaaaa yourself.
--Ahhh, one of life's great mysteries! Wayne, there's this property of matter I like to call "expansion and contraction." I think it's safe to say that the fuel bladder expands or contracts depending on the temperature. If Mr. Science filled up the tank at the beginning of his journey when the bladder was in a contracted state, then refilled the tank when the bladder was in a relative expanded state at the end of his journey, he would find that the bladder would hold more fuel.........double Ta-Daaaaaaaa back to you!
--Of course we're assuming that a guy who can't even add up his own mileage correctly, who doesn't have a clue as to how much gas he burned, and who doesn't know the first thing about performing a valid scientific experiment, can be trusted when he says he pumped in 11.1 gallons. Maybe the guy meant to say he pumped in 10.1 gallons 'cuz 10.1 gallons is almost 11.1 gallons if you use your math.
Is 41% is a lot closer to almost 50% then the 13% you are discussing? Is 41% not a lot closer to almost 50% then a bit over 25%? Maybe if I used 33%, there would be some depth to your statements.
--Is there anybody in this room besides Wayne that agrees that 41% is "almost 50%"?? If so, have I got a business deal for you! MAYBE if you had used 33% there would be some depth to my statements?? So you're not even sure that 33% is stretching the "almost 50%" assertion?! Geez, give me a break! Wayne, there's no shame in being wrong --everyone makes misteaks (oops, I mean "mistakes"). But admit to your mistakes, cut your losses, and move on, least all your statements be called into question.
I think the problem lies with whomever gave the reporter the Prius to drive back to Chicago. If they wanted the car to look good in such an informal test I would think they would have explained the whole deal with the gas tank. Maybe it was a VW dealer that gave them the Prius to use in the test. The reporter did what he is paid to do. Drove the two vehicles and recorded how much fuel each car used on the trip. He probably was ticked that he didn't get to test drive a Ferrari or Porsche or at least a MB E320 CDI.
___Not only have you strayed far off topic, if 41% isn’t closer to almost 50% then 13%, I would say you haven’t yet graduated from grade school. Brainiac most surely doesn’t apply and especially if you are still wetting your pants!
___Now the more important question is, how did USA Today only receive 39 mpg from their Prius II in their drive from city to city?
Sounds like the fuel tank bladder is a source of confusion on how to properly calculate fuel mileage for the Prius. How many fill ups would it take to calculate an accurate reading at the pump? Are the majority of reporters willing to test drive a Prius for thousands of miles to get the best average fuel economy? I wouldn't think so.
With regards to the USA Today report, it's a moot point now seeing as how the relatively poor showing of the Prius has already been published and read by millions. But this reporter's experiences with poor hybrid fuel economy are not alone, according to another USA Today article.:
> Poor fuel economy has been among hybrid owners' top gripes, according to consultant J.D. Power and Associates, as much as three times as high as for other small cars and even surpassing that of owners of gas-thirsty sport-utility vehicles.
Is the bladder to blame?
Toyota should remove the fuel tank bladder...for many people it's helping give the Prius a black eye when it comes to "observed" fuel economy, IMO.
I hope Toyota doesn't remove the bladder cause its doing what its supposed to do, reduce emmisions - yea it requires some thought when it comes to figuring out MPG figures but its well worth it.
I think you are missing the point. If MPG is the primary reason for buying a vehicle and it is perceived to get poor mileage compared to what is advertised. I believe people have a legitimate complaint. If I drive 300 miles and the tank says 1/4 full and it takes 10 gallons to fill it. I figure I got 30 mpg. If figuring gas mileage is now rocket science many people will be left out. Toyota needs to address the problem and correct it. I would never believe some gauge that told me I was getting 51.3 mpg. I believe in "Real World" how much went into the tank statistics.
An interesting article in Forbes May 24th issue. It makes an interesting case for a hybrid that can be plugged in to charge it. According to the article It costs the utilities $.02 per KWH to produce electricity with coal. The hybrid gasoline engine uses a minimum $.25 worth of $2.00 per gallon gas to produce that same KWH. The thrust of the article was to make a hybrid that would be charging at home while not in use. Using our coal instead of foreign oil.
--Ha Ha, Wayne you ol' devil you. Just when I think you can't get any more obtuse, you come back and surprise me. Where do you come up with these gems?
--Your "logic" defies explanation. Perhaps you can tell me what the price of tea in China is, because I haven't got a clue what point you are trying to make by asking me if 41% is closer to 50% than 13% (does anybody in the forum understand his "savvy" point??). Stop the presses! 41% found by man to be closer to 50% than 13%!!
--Where do you get the absurd notion that I think 13% is closer to 50% than 41%?? I've never said that and I defy you or anybody else to find the post and quote the section where it's allegedly written (hey everybody, go to posts 46, 47, 71 and 72 and see if you can understand what Wayne is babbling about...he needs help).
--And no I have not "strayed off topic." This regards the USAToday article on hybrids...hybrids in the news --get it?
--Oh, and as for your comment about going back to grade school, here's a test for you...
Question #1 Please analyze the following sentence: If I had a weak bladder, I would have wet myself from laughing so hard at your attempt to put a good spin on such a weak position. This sentence infers that:
a) The person has wet himself because of his weak bladder. b) The person has NOT wet himself because his bladder is not weak.
(For Wayne's answer see post #75)
Question #2 If Johnny has a dollar and gives you 41 cents, what percentage of the dollar has he given you?
a) almost 50% b) about 40%
(For Wayne's projected answer see post #47...for correct answer see post #71)
--Sorry Wayne, you failed readin', writin' AND 'rithmetic...back to kindergarten for you....hahaha!
> I think it's safe to say that the fuel bladder expands or contracts depending on the temperature. If Mr. Science filled up the tank at the beginning of his journey when the bladder was in a contracted state, then refilled the tank when the bladder was in a relative expanded state at the end of his journey, he would find that the bladder would hold more fuel.
If you believe this, then you must believe that the opposite can be true. Say a Prius driver fills up at the beginning of his journey when the bladder is an an expanded state, then refilled the tank when the bladder was in a contracted state. His calculated fuel mileage would be artificially higher than what it really was since he pumped in less fuel.
I wonder how many people claiming to get 53 MPG or more after one tank in their Prius have taken this scenario into account?
___If the US Today article would have included a round trip for both vehicles or a bumper to bumper drive and given them max fillups over double the amount of miles, then maybe there would be a closer to real world result. As it stands, 39 mpg in a Prius II is simply far to low for the type of drive and the speeds they said they were traveling thus making the article unfounded by a long shot.
> I wonder how many people claiming to get 53 MPG or more after one tank in their Prius have taken this scenario into account?
When you think about it, that statement doesn't actually make sense.
Those that rely on calculated values have a running total. They maintain a spreadsheet. Single tank measurements don't mean much. So they don't often quote them.
I quote monthly values (4 or 5 tanks). For May, it was 53.7 MPG.
I have no doubt you get that kind of mileage. Anyone that would keep his mileage on a spreadsheet is gungho. I just don't think the population as a whole take the time or put in the effort you do to keep that close a track on their mileage. You probably gauge your driving to acquire the best mileage also. Most people just jump into their car and drive. I ask almost everyone I meet with a vehicle I am considering to buy, what kind of mileage are you getting. It is rare to find someone that has a clue. I would be very surprised if 1% of all drivers check their mileage. And I have asked two people at Costco with Prius vehicles their MPG, no idea, just better than their last car. I would think most people could give you some idea of what it costs them per week to drive. I think people have too much money and don't really give a hoot about mileage. I have not noticed a decrease in the cars on the road since the gas prices went over two bucks.
You left out "that don't have a Multi-Display" on their dashboard.
Those that do are dramatically more aware, which is basically 99.9% of all Prius drivers.
That's a massive cultural difference. The convenience of having a computer screen right there is amazing. Awareness is heightened to an extreme without requiring anything more than just an occasional glance.
of course, burning coal is one of the most polluting things mankind has ever done, and it is why places like the Tennessee Valley and Great Smoky Mountains National Park have some of the most polluted air in the country. In fact widespread coal-burning in China polluted the air so badly recently that the "bad air" actually migrated around the world. How about that for pollution?
Now of course, from a national security point of view, I can see where burning home-grown coal is better than burning foreign oil, but that is only one of many factors to consider.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How many fill ups would it take to calculate an accurate reading at the pump? Are the majority of reporters willing to test drive a Prius for thousands of miles to get the best average fuel economy? I wouldn't think so.
--Why would the reporter have to drive the car for thousands of miles to get an accurate mpg reading? Why can't you simply siphon out the gas, run the engine to burn off whatever is left, then add 5 or 10 gallons of carefully measured petrol back into the tank and drive until the engine chokes?
Actually with modern coal fired power plants the only thing that is dumped into the air is CO2. Gasoline powered cars account for the most of the CO2 in the air. Of course that is another debate on is it or is it not causing global warming...
A hybrid minivan for the U.S. by guess who - snip - Toyota Hybrid Could Solve Minivan Dilemma Toyota’s hybrid system could make possible both the option of all-wheel drive and second-row seats that fold into the floor. http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_toyota_hybrid_solve/index.htm
Interesting article. I knew I had heard about a hybrid mini-van being marketed in Japan. My question is why do these things take so long to get to our shores? According to what I read here on Edmund's the Prius has been around since 1997. We did not get it till the 2001 model year. I really don't care if it is a hybrid or a diesel I want a smallish pickup that gets great mileage (35-45 mpg). Nothing on the market in the USA fits the bill.
that with all the announced plans for hybrids in the next few years, including some full-size trucks, there has been no mention of any hybrid small pick-ups? I mean, none of them get such impressive mileage that doing a hybrid version would be pointless, or something.
I guess it is just not a popular enough segment to get first-string status in the hybrid releases. Maybe by 2010...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Interesting to note that the two authors both beat the EPA city estimates one getting 35 and the other 50. If this is the same tehcnology as the Prius how come no Prius owners have beatenthe EPA city estimate of 60 ( or for that matter even gotten close) ? Mybe prius drivers are really closet aggressive race car drivers after all
I thought Toyota sold Ford 20 patents to the old version of HSD , the THD. Maybe the THD was better :
uses a bigger battery pack doesn't it? Which means it can have a broader range of electric-only operation, which would boost fuel economy significantly.
This will be the big advantage of putting hybrid systems in SUVs - they are much heavier to begin with so putting in bigger heavier battery packs will be possible.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
> If this is the same tehcnology as the Prius how come no Prius owners have beaten the EPA city estimate of 60 ( or for that matter even gotten close)?
Several times we have posted reports of Prius owners doing exactly that. Forgetful, eh?
In fact, there is even a photo of the 85.7 MPG tank on the "Hybrid vs. Diesel" thread.
Interesting to note that the two authors both beat the EPA city estimates one getting 35 and the other 50. If this is the same tehcnology as the Prius how come no Prius owners have beatenthe EPA city estimate of 60 ( or for that matter even gotten close) ? Mybe prius drivers are really closet aggressive race car drivers after all
I read the Edmunds article on the Escape Hybrid and was very dissapointed at their non-scientific tests to measure EPA ''city'' MPG Numbers.
What they did was no full-fledged test, but a contest, over a mere 6-mile stretch, under very favorable conditions, and driving like old ladies in Florida, to see who would get the best MPG.
That is a far cry from actual real live conditions.
Now that gas prices are not dirt-cheap any more,
I wish that somebody will demand that we are given accutate, scientific MPG numbers from the manufacturers. EPA has also recognized that its numbers are almost voo-doo statistics, and is accepting comments for improvement of their procedures. there is a deadline soon, and then they will decide how to improve them.
And it is meaningless to say "60 HWY". 60 mpg, but at what speed?? If you go from 55 to 75-85, as most people do on the hiwhgay, your MPG will be much higher.
A reporter is hoping to interview anyone who has recently considered a Prius. He wonders what your shopping experience was like, what you paid if you bought one, what you cross-shopped, what you bought if you went for another vehicle, etc. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com by Tuesday, June 22, 2004 with your daytime contact info and anything you'd like to share.
Thecarconnection (daily Edition: Jun. 21) reports there may be a hybrid MR2 in '05 or '06 - snip -
Toyota is likely going to add a performance-oriented hybrid in its U.S. stable of vehicles the not-too distant future, a major Department of Energy research official tells TCC. "We've heard that Toyota's going t come out with a next-generation MR2 that will have hybrid technology in it," the official says, adding that the DOE has been urging U.S. automakers to employ a performance-oriented strategy for some time and that Toyota, once again, plans to beat its Yankee competitors to the punch.
I thought there was a lot of discussion about needs and wants and that no one needed more power or perfomance than the Toyota Prius could provide. I guess Toyota's long term direction is to provide performance after all! Good move Toyota!
No one needs more power or performance than a Prius can provide? Quite possible, when comparing cars of a similar class. Of course, there are people who need far more power than a mid-sized car can provide, e.g. to pull a horse trailer.
No one wants more power or performance than a Prius can provide? Absolutely not--as you are the living proof that it is not true.
>No one wants more power or >performance than a Prius can provide? >Absolutely not--as you are the living >proof that it is not true
Who said that ? Not I? WHOOSH!! Reread #99 slowly and carefully, I was merely parrotting, rather sarcastically, the words and philosophy of Mr. Prius ,himself.
Yes, almost everyone wants more power and handling than the Prius can provide. Toyota has confirmed it with the RX400h and now the MR2h announcement.
C'mon--you've been talking for months (years?) about how you need more power and performance than today's hybrids can deliver. And now you're saying it ain't so??? Now THAT qualifies as news!
BTW, I did read your post (#100, not #99) slowly and carefully; here is the exact quote I was referring to:
I thought there was a lot of discussion about needs and wants and that no one needed more power or perfomance than the Toyota Prius could provide.
Yes, I want more power and handling than the Prius.
The key words, sorry it was written passively, was "..that no one needed ... with the subject "there was lots of discussion". Key word needed as opposed to wanted .
The whole discussion on "Are Hybrids up to the Chore ? " was about performance.
Comments
"While in stop-and-go traffic, the Prius often ran on battery power, driving home the point that it is most efficient in crawling, urban traffic."
So the test DID include stop-and-go driving situations and was not all "highway-only cruising" as some have insinuated. And still, the diesel Jetta came out ahead of the hybrid Prius.
Hmmmm...
How many of those stop-and-go miles out of the total 500+ miles? When you drive from city to city, you have to get out of the city first right? Why are some, so blind to see that the overall test is a long distance trip? Some rely on self fulfilling prophecy and acknowledge only the lowest mpg that Prius achieves. Is it due to the recent media stories about hybrids fall short of the claim? Or is it, the doubt from FUD that goes, "there! you see? hybrids are just hype. I was right all along" type of comfirmation?
Dennis
Simple, a MIXTURE!
The millions of people that get caught in heavy commute traffic represent a far more average driving experience than a trip that is almost entire cruising. Their speeds very from high, to stop & slow, to suburb, to regular city driving.
That variety is what's typical.
JOHN
Couldn't have said it better myself! ;-)
I applaud the author of the USA Today article for sharing his real world experience with the Jetta and the Prius. It's a shame that some people view his conclusions through "millennium silver" colored glasses and must take every opportunity to discredit any and all negative news concerning the Prius.
When it comes to fuel economy, yes, I believe hybrids are just hype and not worth the premium dollars. I don't care about emissions, and all this talk about drying up oil supplies is left wing propaganda, IMO. Gas prices in my area have actually gone down more than 10 cents a gallon since last month!
Hysterical "the world is coming to an end" rubbish.
What about the millions of people that don't have to deal with heavy commute traffic? Don't they count?
Until I see factual proof of your definition of "typical driving", I'll just treat it as only your opinion.
A vague answer, interesting.
You seem to imply that you do *NOT* use that vehicle for anything else but driving to and from work, exclusively for cruising.
I seriously doubt that is actually the case. I bet you actually drive to other places too, and at speeds much slower than 65+ MPH, like the gas station... stores... food... entertainment... bank... church... family... friends... etc.
JOHN
Since that is just a SHORT-TERM comment, it really isn't an issue.
Of course they cost a premium NOW, high-volume production hasn't begun yet. Heck, Toyota only makes a limited amount of a single model of HSD hybrid now. Just wait until it becomes a large percentage including many, many models.
> I don't care about emissions
All those suffering from breathing-related problems resent that statement. It is best to avoid making comments like that.
JOHN
Please read my message again and note the word majority.
Here's my situation. I live within one mile of a major highway interchange. During that mile I can stop for gas, buy groceries on the way home from work, visit the bank, go to a mall. It's all there within 1 mile of my home.
To get to work I drive to the interchange, get on the highway, and drive 16 miles at 65+ MPH. I get off the highway and drive less than 1/4 mile to get to the office.
Every work day I spend 32 miles on the highway at 65+ MPH, and less than 3 miles of stop-and-go driving. If I can help it I don't drive on the weekends. So, yes, the majority of my daily commute is spent on highway-only cruising.
For me, that's "typical".
It was a loaded comment, intentionally written to see if you'd catch how anyone can unintentionally be vague.
The need to remove the personal aspect from these discussions had become obvious. You're on the sinking ship with me now!
JOHN
I believe the author's report is real and that he drove both cars. It is not about discrediting the report but rather scientific validity of the testing method. The report left a question mark with Prius mpg 27% margin of error. It is that error that needs to be discussed.
You should see how some tried to discredit International Engine of the Year 2004 and Best Fuel Economy award in Diesel vs Hybrid board, msg # 514 to # 527.
usbseawolf2000 "Hybrid vs Diesel" Jun 5, 2004 5:53pm
When it comes to fuel economy, yes, I believe hybrids are just hype and not worth the premium dollars. I don't care about emissions...
I see, HSD probably is not for you because it was designed with low emission in mind, even if it has to give up fuel economy. Do you also care about drivetrain response time, smooth power delivery, silence pure electric mode, etc...? Do you ever wonder why Prius with 76hp engine with electric motors beats 2.4L 160hp Camry in 30-50mph test by almost one second? The key is consistent responsive power delivery that HSD provides.
Dennis
Do you ever wonder why Prius with 76hp engine with electric motors beats 2.4L 160hp Camry in 30-50mph test by almost one second? The key is consistent responsive power delivery that HSD provides.
___First off, the only place I have seen the 30 - 50mph data in print is from Toyota’s own press pages. Secondly, the lowly 4 banger Camry is much faster to 30 and much faster to 60. This can be found from the car magazine data. Thirdly, the Camry is not only far less costly, but is larger and has a much more comfortable ride. Lastly in regards to the Camry, did you also know the Camry is available in a PZEV format as well?
___And back to the USA Today article. I don’t know if the Diesel VW vs. the Prius II was a great test or not given there may have been a tail wind for one vehicle and a head wind for the other. I have seen that speculated with prevailing winds in those areas favoring the VW from an Insight forum just this morning.
___The item that doesn’t appear to be faked however is that the Prius II took 11.1 gallons. This isn’t a 4 or 5 gallon fill but an almost max capacity fill so saying the computer errors will even themselves out tank to tank seems to be trying to cover something up. 11.1 gallons is far more fuel then John has ever placed into his Prius II so how would he know anything about it? I do wonder how full the tank was at the beginning of the trip however. The error is simply too large. Many Prius II owners are saying 2 -3 mpg high on the LCD vs. real world, not 13.5 + mpg.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
In only very LIMITED areas though. It is NOT available nationwide.
> 11.1 gallons is far more fuel then John has ever placed into his Prius II so how would he know anything about it?
Your first post back is a personal attack. That's bad.
I have a receipt showing I pumped 10.7 gallons into my Prius when I first picked it up. And that was without even topping off! A difference of 0.4 of a gallon is hardly "far more".
JOHN
___First off, what personal attack?
___PZEV in limited areas? I can make a phone call today and pick up a PZEV on Monday in California or NY.
___10.7 gallons? What does this mean then?
http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-data09.htm. I know when I picked up a brand new Toyota two years ago, it came w/ a full tank.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
When you focus a discussion on a particular person and make negative comments specifically to discredit, that is considered a personal attack... especially when you've been informed of it already.
Please keep the topics focused on the technology, not a person.
> 10.7 gallons? What does this mean then?
The dealer allows you to pump the gas into your new car yourself. They just pay for it afterward. So I did, and they did.
But I already answered that very same question you asked on the "up to the chore" topic. Why are you asking it again?
JOHN
--Hey Einstein, if you drive 422 miles and then drive an additional 10 miles to get to the next gas station, that's a total of 432 miles --not 422 miles. 432/11.1 = 38.9 mpg or 39 mpg after rounding up (the Jetta numbers were rounded up).
--Gee, if he can make such a bone-headed mistake when writing an article in a publication read by millions, then I don't have much confidence in his ability to record the correct mileage numbers...much less perform a scientifically sound study (although in his defense, I don't think his intent was ever to perform a rigorous scientific test...or at least I hope not because he would have failed miserably).
Prius is comfortable, a festival of technology and unquestionably cleaner-burning than the VW can be today with only high-sulfur diesel fuel available. But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius...
--How can you proclaim such a fuel economy verdict when you are clueless as to how much gas the Prius actually used?? If the bladder resulted in a 1.5 gallon differential, then the Prius may have gotten a solid 45 mpg vs. about 44 for the Jetta. I also find it surprising that he was able to pump in 11.1 gallons. From personal experience the most I've been able to pump in on an "empty" tank was 10 gallons with it more typically being 9 and change.
--Furthermore, if this was a diesel vs. hybrid contest, the playing fields were not equal. Doing a highway mileage test only gives one side of the fuel economy story. A fair comparison should have also included city mileage results where the Prius has the advantage. I'm sure if the author had only done an "around the town" test and proclaimed the hybrid the decided winner based on its superior fuel economy, diesel fans would be screaming foul!
--With so many factors influencing fuel economy (How much gas did you start out with? What were the weather conditions? Was there a head wind? How cold was it? What was the topography of the first route vs. the second route? How many stops were made along the way? What were traffic conditions like?, etc., etc.), and with none of them accounted for, the margin of error is so great that it makes the outcome practically meaningless.
--C'mon folks, this article is based on junk science. To hold it up as the gospel truth is an injustice.
When we did our Insight, Civic-Hybrid, Prius, Jetta TDI, Navigator comparisons, we were within eye-shot of each other all 1,200 miles. That equalized the driving-condition factors as much as realistically possible.
Too bad this recent test resemble that at all.
JOHN
JOHN
--Ah Wayne, how do you massage the numbers to get an "almost 50%" overstatement?? 55 mpg is a 41% increase over 39 mpg. Forty-one percent is hardly "almost 50%"!
--Secondly, you're using the combined EPA number of 55 mpg rather than the more appropriate 51 mpg figure. This was a test of highway mileage wasn't it? Using the EPA's 51 mpg number, the "overstatement" drops to 31% and that's before even taking into account the bladder differential, which brings me to my next point...
--The infamous bladder. Since the reporter (aka Mr. Science) was clueless as to how much gas was in the tank at the start of his trip, we'll never know the true fuel economy. If we assume that the bladder reduced the tank capacity by 1.5 gallons, then the actual mpg was 45.
--Hey, guess what the overstatement becomes now....... that's right --about 13%.........Ta-Daaaaaaaa!!! Last time I checked, 13% was in the range of 10 to 15% Go figure
___Even though I believe the article comparison is flawed in any number of areas. The new TDI owner I know drives like a bat out of hell and receives 37 mpg. I asked if he has measured and calculated and he said just at the pump with miles driven/gallons purchased. If I drove the Insight that hard, I would be lucky to get 60 from her. This coming from someone that is almost doubling average Prius owner’s mileage.
___John1701a, Toyota let you fill up your car? So what did you do, go to the station with their credit card? All I received when I picked up my last Toyota was a checklist and one of the items on the list was that it had a full tank in it. When I purchased the MDX last year, the dealer had it filled before the wife pulled it off the lot. When I purchased the Corolla 2 years ago, the dealer had it filled before I pulled it off the lot. When I purchased the Ranger last year, the dealer had it filled before I pulled it off the lot. When I purchased the Insight, the dealer also had it filled before I pulled it off the lot. I didn’t have anything to do with any fill so I was very surprised to hear that you did given the Bladder issue in colder temps makes 10.7 gallons highly unlikely. You did mention something about documentation to prove > 10 gallon fills but when I looked at your spreadsheet, all I saw were entry’s < 9.5 gallons?
___As for the personal attacks, why didn’t you step time after time when one of your counterparts ruined the “Up to the Chore” thread with his name calling? Did your feelings get hurt because I posted your name in regards to you not filling up w/ the amount you stated you had data for?
___Hi Quasar4. Is 41% is a lot closer to almost 50% then the 13% you are discussing? Is 41% not a lot closer to almost 50% then a bit over 25%? Maybe if I used 33%, there would be some depth to your statements. So what is it, almost 50% or just 13%? I think the article is full of it given anyone can get > 39 out of a Prius II. But if you would like to dissect 41% as a poor description of almost 50%, where do you want to go next? Weren’t you calling someone Einstein in the previous page? If so, maybe I can refer to you as Brainiac from now on.
___Mr. Science and the bladder If the bladder caused it to be 1.5 gallons to low to begin with, how did he fill it with 11.1 gallons afterwards? Ta-Daaaaaaaa yourself.
___Finally, there is almost no way anyone could get < 40 mpg in a Prius II at 72 mph unless there was a strong head wind, the tires were deflated, toe had at least ½” added to it, they were driving in over 2” of snow or temps below 0 degrees, the driver was riding the brakes, or they were using 15-W50 to name a few possibilities.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Mr. Science and the bladder If the bladder caused it to be 1.5 gallons to low to begin with, how did he fill it with 11.1 gallons afterwards? Ta-Daaaaaaaa yourself.
--Ahhh, one of life's great mysteries! Wayne, there's this property of matter I like to call "expansion and contraction." I think it's safe to say that the fuel bladder expands or contracts depending on the temperature. If Mr. Science filled up the tank at the beginning of his journey when the bladder was in a contracted state, then refilled the tank when the bladder was in a relative expanded state at the end of his journey, he would find that the bladder would hold more fuel.........double Ta-Daaaaaaaa back to you!
--Of course we're assuming that a guy who can't even add up his own mileage correctly, who doesn't have a clue as to how much gas he burned, and who doesn't know the first thing about performing a valid scientific experiment, can be trusted when he says he pumped in 11.1 gallons. Maybe the guy meant to say he pumped in 10.1 gallons 'cuz 10.1 gallons is almost 11.1 gallons if you use your math.
Is 41% is a lot closer to almost 50% then the 13% you are discussing? Is 41% not a lot closer to almost 50% then a bit over 25%? Maybe if I used 33%, there would be some depth to your statements.
--Is there anybody in this room besides Wayne that agrees that 41% is "almost 50%"?? If so, have I got a business deal for you! MAYBE if you had used 33% there would be some depth to my statements?? So you're not even sure that 33% is stretching the "almost 50%" assertion?! Geez, give me a break! Wayne, there's no shame in being wrong --everyone makes misteaks (oops, I mean "mistakes"). But admit to your mistakes, cut your losses, and move on, least all your statements be called into question.
Brainiac Out
___Not only have you strayed far off topic, if 41% isn’t closer to almost 50% then 13%, I would say you haven’t yet graduated from grade school. Brainiac most surely doesn’t apply and especially if you are still wetting your pants!
___Now the more important question is, how did USA Today only receive 39 mpg from their Prius II in their drive from city to city?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
With regards to the USA Today report, it's a moot point now seeing as how the relatively poor showing of the Prius has already been published and read by millions. But this reporter's experiences with poor hybrid fuel economy are not alone, according to another USA Today article.:
> Poor fuel economy has been among hybrid owners' top gripes, according to consultant J.D. Power and Associates, as much as three times as high as for other small cars and even surpassing that of owners of gas-thirsty sport-utility vehicles.
Is the bladder to blame?
Toyota should remove the fuel tank bladder...for many people it's helping give the Prius a black eye when it comes to "observed" fuel economy, IMO.
McLean...
--Your "logic" defies explanation. Perhaps you can tell me what the price of tea in China is, because I haven't got a clue what point you are trying to make by asking me if 41% is closer to 50% than 13% (does anybody in the forum understand his "savvy" point??). Stop the presses! 41% found by man to be closer to 50% than 13%!!
--Where do you get the absurd notion that I think 13% is closer to 50% than 41%?? I've never said that and I defy you or anybody else to find the post and quote the section where it's allegedly written (hey everybody, go to posts 46, 47, 71 and 72 and see if you can understand what Wayne is babbling about...he needs help).
--And no I have not "strayed off topic." This regards the USAToday article on hybrids...hybrids in the news --get it?
--Oh, and as for your comment about going back to grade school, here's a test for you...
Question #1 Please analyze the following sentence:
If I had a weak bladder, I would have wet myself from laughing so hard at your attempt to put a good spin on such a weak position. This sentence infers that:
a) The person has wet himself because of his weak bladder.
b) The person has NOT wet himself because his bladder is not weak.
(For Wayne's answer see post #75)
Question #2 If Johnny has a dollar and gives you 41 cents, what percentage of the dollar has he given you?
a) almost 50%
b) about 40%
(For Wayne's projected answer see post #47...for correct answer see post #71)
--Sorry Wayne, you failed readin', writin' AND 'rithmetic...back to kindergarten for you....hahaha!
If you believe this, then you must believe that the opposite can be true. Say a Prius driver fills up at the beginning of his journey when the bladder is an an expanded state, then refilled the tank when the bladder was in a contracted state. His calculated fuel mileage would be artificially higher than what it really was since he pumped in less fuel.
I wonder how many people claiming to get 53 MPG or more after one tank in their Prius have taken this scenario into account?
___If the US Today article would have included a round trip for both vehicles or a bumper to bumper drive and given them max fillups over double the amount of miles, then maybe there would be a closer to real world result. As it stands, 39 mpg in a Prius II is simply far to low for the type of drive and the speeds they said they were traveling thus making the article unfounded by a long shot.
___Quasar4, are you related to djasonw?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
When you think about it, that statement doesn't actually make sense.
Those that rely on calculated values have a running total. They maintain a spreadsheet. Single tank measurements don't mean much. So they don't often quote them.
I quote monthly values (4 or 5 tanks). For May, it was 53.7 MPG.
JOHN
You left out "that don't have a Multi-Display" on their dashboard.
Those that do are dramatically more aware, which is basically 99.9% of all Prius drivers.
That's a massive cultural difference. The convenience of having a computer screen right there is amazing. Awareness is heightened to an extreme without requiring anything more than just an occasional glance.
JOHN
Now of course, from a national security point of view, I can see where burning home-grown coal is better than burning foreign oil, but that is only one of many factors to consider.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
--Why would the reporter have to drive the car for thousands of miles to get an accurate mpg reading? Why can't you simply siphon out the gas, run the engine to burn off whatever is left, then add 5 or 10 gallons of carefully measured petrol back into the tank and drive until the engine chokes?
http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_toyota_hybrid_solve/index.htm
I guess it is just not a popular enough segment to get first-string status in the hybrid releases. Maybe by 2010...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Interesting to note that the two authors both beat the EPA city estimates one getting 35 and the other 50. If this is the same tehcnology as the Prius how come no Prius owners have beatenthe EPA city estimate of 60 ( or for that matter even gotten close) ? Mybe prius drivers are really closet aggressive race car drivers after all
I thought Toyota sold Ford 20 patents to the old version of HSD , the THD. Maybe the THD was better :
This will be the big advantage of putting hybrid systems in SUVs - they are much heavier to begin with so putting in bigger heavier battery packs will be possible.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Several times we have posted reports of Prius owners doing exactly that. Forgetful, eh?
In fact, there is even a photo of the 85.7 MPG tank on the "Hybrid vs. Diesel" thread.
JOHN
Interesting to note that the two authors both beat the EPA city estimates one getting 35 and the other 50. If this is the same tehcnology as the Prius how come no Prius owners have beatenthe EPA city estimate of 60 ( or for that matter even gotten close) ? Mybe prius drivers are really closet aggressive race car drivers after all
I read the Edmunds article on the Escape Hybrid and was very dissapointed at their non-scientific tests to measure EPA ''city'' MPG Numbers.
What they did was no full-fledged test, but a contest, over a mere 6-mile stretch, under very favorable conditions, and driving like old ladies in Florida, to see who would get the best MPG.
That is a far cry from actual real live conditions.
Now that gas prices are not dirt-cheap any more,
I wish that somebody will demand that we are given accutate, scientific MPG numbers from the manufacturers. EPA has also recognized that its numbers are almost voo-doo statistics, and is accepting comments for improvement of their procedures. there is a deadline soon, and then they will decide how to improve them.
And it is meaningless to say "60 HWY". 60 mpg, but at what speed?? If you go from 55 to 75-85, as most people do on the hiwhgay, your MPG will be much higher.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
Toyota is likely going to add a performance-oriented hybrid in its U.S. stable of vehicles the not-too distant future, a major Department of Energy research official tells TCC. "We've heard that Toyota's going t come out with a next-generation MR2 that will have hybrid technology in it," the official says, adding that the DOE has been urging U.S. automakers to employ a performance-oriented strategy for some time and that Toyota, once again, plans to beat its Yankee competitors to the punch.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=173&sid=173&a- - rticle=7254
I thought there was a lot of discussion about needs and wants and that no one needed more power or perfomance than the Toyota Prius could provide. I guess Toyota's long term direction is to provide performance after all! Good move Toyota!
YMMV,
MidCow
No one wants more power or performance than a Prius can provide? Absolutely not--as you are the living proof that it is not true.
>performance than a Prius can provide?
>Absolutely not--as you are the living
>proof that it is not true
Who said that ? Not I? WHOOSH!! Reread #99 slowly and carefully, I was merely parrotting, rather sarcastically, the words and philosophy of Mr. Prius ,himself.
Yes, almost everyone wants more power and handling than the Prius can provide. Toyota has confirmed it with the RX400h and now the MR2h announcement.
YMMV,
MidCow
BTW, I did read your post (#100, not #99) slowly and carefully; here is the exact quote I was referring to:
I thought there was a lot of discussion about needs and wants and that no one needed more power or perfomance than the Toyota Prius could provide.
The key words, sorry it was written passively, was "..that no one needed ... with the subject "there was lots of discussion". Key word needed as opposed to wanted .
The whole discussion on "Are Hybrids up to the Chore ? " was about performance.
Onward and upward. Have a good day! Mr. Backy
YMMV,
MidCow