Hybrids in the News

tpe

I honestly don't remember what size engine my Pinto had. I know in high school I drove a Fiat 128 that had a 1.2L engine that put out 50 hp and I could get close to 30 mpg. I doubt that car weighed over 2,000 lbs. In 1999 I drove a Toyota Corolla that had a 1.8L engine, around 120 hp and I was able to get 33 mpg. I guess my point is that hp and torque ratings represent available power. Increasing available power does not necessarily make a car less fuel efficient.

I had a friend who drove a Gremlin. It did seem fast in comparison to what was available at the time. The reality is that it probably did no better than mid 8's for a 0-60 time. BTW, that Pinto sucked. I'm amazed that Ford was able to sell them for as long as they did. The only thing I liked about it was its hatchback that made it easy to throw golf bags in it.

stevedebi

The Gremlin X had a V8, about 5 liters, I think. That was pretty severe overkill for that particular car.

stevedebi

"BTW, that Pinto sucked. I'm amazed that Ford was able to sell them for as long as they did."

Count your blessings that you were never rear-ended in that Pinto. :surprise:

larsb

Old news, new link

Over the next three years, Toyota plans to cut the cost of its hybrid technology in half. Also to be reduced is the weight of the hybrid drivetrain, which will increase both fuel efficiency and performance. This next generation Prius is planned for 2009 with an anticipated fuel rating of 90mpg.

larsb

A huge part of the success can be attributed to the Prius, which runs on a combination of electric and gasoline power. Worldwide sales jumped from 28,083 in 2002 to 43,162 in 2003, and hit 175,157 last year. Toyota's goal is to reach 1 million in annual hybrid sales in the first few years of the next decade. From 1997 through July 2006, it shipped 552,657 Priuses--which accounts for 76.7 percent of the 720,516 hybrids shipped by all manufacturers.

So through July 2006 there have been 720,516 hybrids sold. That's interesting information !!!

Toyota SERIOUS about alternative fuel vehicles

gagrice

I did notice in your article that Toyota mentions their having "clean diesel" at least 3 times. Something many here have said does not exist.

larsb

Well, "clean diesel fuel" meaning Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel does EXIST, it's just not yet prevalent and available everywhere.

And "clean diesel cars" DO apparently exist, at least outside the USA. Even the "world's cleanest diesel car" was not clean enough for the CAFE states.

It's good to know that Toyota is working the "clean car" future from several different angles.

gagrice

Even the "world's cleanest diesel car" was not clean enough for the CAFE states.

There you go again. You know that is totally false. The reason that CARB is balking is they do not trust you and I to maintain the emissions system. Same as Toyota does not trust YOU with an EV switch in your hybrid.

PF_Flyer

Here we are again, with the same folks having the same argument, and starting to turn things personal again.

This is NOT the place to hold your personal disputes.

Last time I checked, nobody is changing anyone's mind here. Agree to disagree and move on.

larsb

Inside Hybrid factory

Nearly finished Priuses, Camrys and Premios (a Japan-only car) progress on automated floor belts through the final inspection area, where workers look for paint scratches and check the lights. Elevators, conveyors and other machinery seem to be shuttling metal everywhere, but nothing moves faster than your grandmother's walking speed.

Then there is the andon cord, a draping white cord that hangs overhead on both sides of every production line. When a worker sees a problem, he pulls the cord, which immediately stops his particular production line. In a U.S. factory, stopping production would be discouraged and would likely be accompanied by a loud, shrill alarm.

terry92270

Clean Diesel is the same thing as "clean" Coal. :P

larsb

First Kentucky TCH rolls off today:

Kentucky-Built TCHs on the way to dealers today

Toyota's largest North American plant is set to roll out its first Kentucky-built hybrid Camry on Thursday.

Hybrid production required a $10 million investment for equipment modifications and training.

Kentucky legislators passed tax legislation last year, allowing carmakers to recover some costs of building hybrids.

Toyota officials cited the move in announcing their decision to build the hybrids in Georgetown.

larsb

Very Good Sidebar on right side listing upcoming Hybrids

The present and future of hybrids
TOYOTA

Hybrid vehicles: Prius, Camry, Highlander, Lexus RX400h, Lexus GS450h.

What's ahead: The Lexus LS 600h L coming in 2007; Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe says his company hopes to achieve worldwide sales of 1 million hybrids a year by the early 2010s.

HONDA

Hybrid vehicles: Civic, Accord, Insight (being phased out).

What's ahead: Plans to launch new hybrid-only model priced below the Civic hybrid by 2009, with annual sales targets of 200,000 vehicles worldwide and 100,000 in the United States.

FORD

Hybrid vehicles: Escape, Mariner.

What's ahead: Mazda Tribute hybrid planned for 2007; Fusion and Milan hybrids expected in 2008.

GENERAL MOTORS

Hybrid vehicles: Saturn Vue Green Line, Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra (mild-hybrids).

What's ahead: Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu mild-hybrids coming in 2007; GMC Yukon and Chevy Tahoe full-fledged hybrids planned for late 2007; three additional models expected in 2008.

NISSAN

Hybrid vehicles: None currently available.

What's ahead: Altima hybrid, using Toyota technology, will be available in eight states in early 2007.

DAIMLERCHRYSLER

Hybrid vehicles: None currently.

What's ahead: Dodge Durango hybrid expected in early 2008; working with GM and BMW to jointly develop hybrid technology.

backy

Good list but incomplete. For example it does not mention Hyundai/Kia's upcoming hybrids.

larsb

Yesterday, Toyota announced that its Georgetown, Ky., plant has produced the first U.S.-built hybrid Camry sedan, and it plans to continue producing the vehicles at the rate of 48,000 per year. Simultaneously, the company projected that in 2007, it will sell a whopping 290,000 hybrids -- Priuses, Camrys, Highlanders, and so on -- in the U.S. alone.

Now I know what the naysayers will say ("nay"). I know they'll argue that 290,000 is barely 2% of all annual new-car sales in the U.S. But look at what else 2% is. Two percent of the U.S. auto market is:

* The entire U.S. market share controlled by Hyundai.
* More than all the Prius hybrids sold to date in the U.S.
* Roughly twice the number of Toyota's 2005 U.S. hybrid sales.
* Faster growth than the 79% compound three-year growth rate in total U.S. hybrid auto sales.

From this article:

Toyota "ambitions" for 2007 Hybrids

tpe

Now I know what the naysayers will say ("nay"). I know they'll argue that 290,000 is barely 2% of all annual new-car sales in the U.S. But look at what else 2% is. Two percent of the U.S. auto market is:

* The entire U.S. market share controlled by Hyundai.
* More than all the Prius hybrids sold to date in the U.S.
* Roughly twice the number of Toyota's 2005 U.S. hybrid sales.
* Faster growth than the 79% compound three-year growth rate in total U.S. hybrid auto sales.

I agree completely. I'm a big EV proponent and the criticism I hear is that only a small percentage of drivers would be interested. A small percentage is a big number.

stevedebi

"Now I know what the naysayers will say ("nay"). I know they'll argue that 290,000 is barely 2% of all annual new-car sales in the U.S. "

No, that's not what I say. What I say is: check the global numbers. Hybrids aren't selling well except here in the US. What is selling over there? Diesels.

If Honda successfully completes it's recently announced diesel catalytic converter, and license it as they have said they will, there will be CARB acceptable diesel engines in 2009. Such diesels are the main challenge to hybrids. If they ever catch on in the US, it may well be curtains for hybrids - because hybrids require even further "economies of scale" to maintain profitability. Simply put, they have to sell a lot more to drive the costs down. It is a closed circle loop. If they sell (not build) more, the costs go down, and they sell more. If they cannot drop the cost and there are other high MPG alternatives, the loop goes the other way (the speed of declining sales depends upon the additional cost of a diesel engine vs. a hybrid engine). High costs that cannot be dropped = higher base price compared to the alternatives = fewer sales = more expensive hybrids = fewer sales, etc.

larsb

SolarHybrid viable?

Venturi (the company that brought us the autonomous solar/wind powered Eclectic) has now introduced the AstroLab, the world's first commercially available electric-solar hybrid. The vehicle is capable of working with very little energy; it can recharge while in motion and does not need permanent exposure to the sun in order to move.

The AstroLab performs surprisingly well for a non-petrol vehicle. It reaches a top speed of 120 kilometers per hour (about 74.5 mph) and has a range of 110 km (about 68 miles). Astrolab attains this level of performance thanks to its ultra-light carbon monocoque (single-shell) chassis, which serves as an oversize protection cel, in case of collisions, and the 3.6-square-meter (about 38.75 square feet) photovoltaic cells on its surface.

terry92270

Well, Diesels have always, since before WWII, sold "well" in Europe. That isn't exactly breaking news..... :P

A new law recently went into effect here, in the US, mandating a low sulfur form of diesel, which should help. Although it has raised the price of it by more than a Nickel per gallon.

tpe

Such diesels are the main challenge to hybrids. If they ever catch on in the US, it may well be curtains for hybrids

I don't think so. Diesel fuel contains something like 20% more energy than gasoline. That's a huge benefit but where do you go from there? Hybrids represent the evolution towards electric vehicles that hold far more potential. I'm not sure why the auto manufacturers are so reluctant to offer plug-in hybrids with a minimal 20 mile all electric range.

larsb

EPA list of 2007 Top Fuel Economy chart

stevedebi

"A new law recently went into effect here, in the US, mandating a low sulfur form of diesel, which should help. Although it has raised the price of it by more than a Nickel per gallon."

As I filled up yesterday, I noticed the diesel pump had a sticker saying it was Ultra-Low Sulfur diesel.

bamacar

Should be only 4 hybrids as the Fit Auto, Corolla Auto, Accent Auto, Rio Auto, Civic Manual/Auto, Elantra Manual/Auto, and Sentra Manual/Auto were all incorrectly left off the list. They all get better mpg than the Escape 4wd hybrid. This list is pretty lame.

rorr

"They all get better mpg than the Escape 4wd hybrid."

I believe the list is based on city mpg, where the Escape was rated at 32mpg.

The Fit Auto is rated at 31mpg city.
The Corolla Auto is rated at 30mpg city.
The Accent Sedan Auto is rated at 28 mpg city.
The Rio Sedan Auto is rated at 29 mpg city.
The Civic Coupe manual/auto is rated at 30 mpg city.
The Elantra Sedan manual/auto is rated at 27/24 mpg city.
The Sentra manual/auto is rated at 28 mpg city.

bamacar

I know they rank on city mpg, but why should the EPA assume the best measure is 100% city driving. Be reasonable and do 60/40 or 70/30 city/highway. If you did, the Escape 4wd would quickly drop off the list.

terry92270

shoulda, woulda, coulda....

Why ask why? Making sense of the government, and how/why they do things is a endless riddle.

backy

You are reading the wrong list. You have the wrong data for the Elantra at least. It's 28 city manual/auto.

tpe

I know they rank on city mpg, but why should the EPA assume the best measure is 100% city driving.

That's a good question. Especially when you consider that the EPA acknowledges their current ratings are not representative of actual driving habits. They plan on modifying their methodology for arriving at these figures. The new ratings system will result in almost all vehicles having lower mpg estimates but the biggest impact is going to be on hybrid city ratings.

larsb

Good Story on Hybrid Mythology

1. You need to plug in a hybrid car.

As soon as the word “electricity” is spoken, you think of plugs, cords, and wall sockets. But today’s hybrid cars don’t need to be plugged in. Auto engineers have developed an ingenious system known as regenerative braking. (Actually, they borrowed the concept from locomotive technology.) Energy usually lost when a vehicle is slowing down or stopping is reclaimed and routed to the hybrid’s rechargeable batteries. The process is automatic, so no special requirements are placed on the driver.

Car companies explain that drivers don’t have to plug in their vehicles, but a growing number of them wish they had a plug-in hybrid. The ability to connect a hybrid into the electric grid overnight to charge a larger set of batteries means that most of your city driving could be done without burning a drop of gasoline.

Can you say 100 mpg? So far, auto makers have been reluctant to bring plug-ins to the mass market, claiming that today’s batteries can’t take the extra demand. Until a car company takes a chance on the great potential of plug-in technology, hybrids don’t require plugging into the grid.

2. Hybrid batteries need to be replaced.

Worries about an expensive replacement of a hybrid car’s batteries continue to nag many potential buyers. Those worries are unfounded. By keeping the charge between 40 percent and 60 percent – never fully charged and never fully drained – carmakers have greatly extended the longevity of nickel metal hydride batteries.

The standard warranty on hybrid batteries and other components is between 80,000 and 100,000 miles, depending on the manufacturer and your location. But that doesn’t mean the batteries will die out at 100,000 miles. The Energy Department stopped its tests of hybrid batteries – when the capacity remained almost like new – after 160,000 miles. A taxi driver in Vancouver drove his Toyota Prius over 200,000 miles in 25 months, and the batteries remained strong.

gagrice

Why do you suppose taxi companies in the USA are reluctant to use hybrids? They were everywhere in Victoria BC last year when we vacationed there.

larsb

Let's see what a quick web search finds:

Well, we know NYC and SF both have extensive hybrid taxi fleets.

Boston in September had it's first hybrid taxi.

LA has some too.

Lufkin, TX has a hybrid taxi service online.

Ford has presented a Hybrid taxi study to Austin city leaders.

Chicago's Escape hybrid test taxi program involves a one-year evaluation of one Escape hybrid taxi given to the Department of Consumer Services. The department's plan is to use the hybrid taxi to educate the public and cab drivers about the benefits of hybrid taxis before the city's June 2007 mandate that taxi companies incorporate hybrids into their fleets.

So, it looks like it is catching on in various cities. Maybe a little slower than it should be, but progress seems to be ongoing.

larsb

Pennsylvania drivers, get your hybrid rebates while they're HOT!!

LOWER MERION TOWNSHIP, Pa., Oct. 19 /PRNewswire/ -- Pennsylvania already has awarded more than a quarter of the $500 rebates available this fiscal year under a first-come, first-serve program for state residents who purchase new hybrid electric vehicles, Environmental Protection Secretary Kathleen A. McGinty announced today.
"More and more Pennsylvanians are making a difference by demanding cleaner cars that get better gas mileage," McGinty said.

gagrice

Well, we know NYC and SF both have extensive hybrid taxi fleets.

Hmm the article I read about NYC taxis was not what you would call extensive. They had to fight tooth and nail to get 18 Escape Hybrids allowed by the taxi police. It seems that NYC only allows 11,787 taxis to be licensed. The board felt the Escape was not roomy enough. He is trying to get a license for one more Escape hybrid. It costs about $222,000 to get a permit for a taxi in NYC.

Not sure about other cities. San Diego taxis use a lot of CNG which of course is cheaper and cleaner than a hybrid.

http://www.schallerconsult.com/taxi/taxi2.htm#introduction

gagrice

Our own XCEL leads a record run in a Honda Insight. 2254 miles at an average 150.0 MPG. Pretty darn good I would say. Go Wayne!

150 MPG Insight

PF_Flyer

As we are moving away from these large discussions with thousnads of posts, I'll use the last two posts here as a natural break point to start the new Hybrids: The new "muscle car"? discussion. Continue your discussion of that premise there.

As news items come up concerning hybrids, please feel free to start new discussions to discuss those articles and the issues they bring up. When the next item comes up, we'll handle that in a new discussion as well. But we will no longer be having these general, everything in one huge pile type of discussions.