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you and your biodiesel. You need to be dunked in a tank of it ! I saw that piece on the documentary channel the other night where it said that when you factor in the cost of farming and fertilising, 'cos american soil had the nutrients sucked out of it years ago, then biodiesel from corn is a net negative. Shame on you. That's despite the fact that we will need the whole land mass of NA to do it unless you were wishing fuel rationing on us as well.
My rebuttal to edrivesystems, is found at Advanced Course in Hybrid Engineering post #118.
Now if you will excuse me I am in the mood to express my own interest in indigenous materials right now which requires me to step out and go club some baby seals. :mad:
T2
You are usually more informed than this. I do not know of any companies that are processing Corn into biodiesel. Biodiesel usually comes from Soy Beans or Rapeseed. Ethanol from corn is near zero gain for sure.
Next Prius to be competitive with diesels.
Part of the impetus is to position the Prius to compete more effectively against fuel-efficient diesels that now dominate the European market.
"What people don't know, and what we wanted to tell them, is that Toyota is not as green as it makes itself out to be," says Danielle Fugere, director of climate change at BlueWater. "Yes, it has some good green technology, like the Prius. But Toyota has consistently lobbied against every attempt to increase vehicle fuel economy. It's part of a group of auto makers suing against California's greenhouse gas law."
Better to be somewhat green than not green at all.
Mass transit being the greenest option short of riding your bike or walking.
(For example a H3 require less energy than a prius during its lifetime)
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060331/sff031.html?.v=38
You have to buy the research study at a cost of $_____ in order to see what the researcher's methodology is.
Who paid the person to do the study.... GM? Makes sense.
The only thing that one can estimate is that the Tahoe has less parts so there is less energy needed to make it. After sale it pollutes way more but it does have less parts. The study also measured the environmental cost of workers driving/commuting to work as a cost of the vehicle. That's a new one.
If GM workers commute 30+ miles in SUV's and older pickups vs Honda workers who bike to work or take trains which is more deleterious to the environment.
It's conclusion is that we all should drive Scion xB's to minimize our impact on the environment.
It's conclusion is that we all should drive Scion xB's to minimize our impact on the environment.
GM paid the research company to do a report that put the XB number one?
Actually, the company, CNW Marketing Research, Inc., is an independent marketing research company that focuses on energy issues. I pulled its D&B and googled it. It is a three person operation out of Salem, Oregon. Given the number of news outlets and magazines that quote its various reports, my guess is that it makes its money by selling research to analysists, journalists, and marketers across the auto industry.
If GM workers commute 30+ miles in SUV's and older pickups vs Honda workers who bike to work or take trains which is more deleterious to the environment.
At least in the US, Big 3 plants tend to be in established urban areas, some of which at least have mass transit. The transplant factories all tend to go to rural areas in states that do not provide any mass transit at all.
The only thing that one can estimate is that the Tahoe has less parts so there is less energy needed to make it. After sale it pollutes way more but it does have less parts.
Not only the number of parts, but the materials used to make them. Titanium and aluminum alloys might be light weight and stiff. But they take far more energy to produce.
M. Monetti
www.thedefensivedrivingclass.com
Slower sales of several gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles have forced Honda Motor Co. to consider cutting production.
With only Toyota Motor Corp. and Ford Motor Co. committed to a wide deployment of hybrid technology, a number of automakers at the New York International Auto Show sounded lukewarm about the prospects for future models.
After torrid sales of the Toyota Prius and Honda's Civic hybrid over the past couple of years, many automakers believed U.S. consumers would demand enough vehicles with improved fuel economy to justify the extra costs of the hybrid systems. Some even considered the loss they might take at selling hybrids below cost as an investment in environmental public relations.
But so far, no hybrid model has drawn demand similar to the Prius, which is among the most popular vehicles on the market.
The new GM SUV's are selling very well.
Are Hybrid Sales Running Out of Gas?
"Even though hybrids are a solution, they're not thesolution," Carlos Ghosn, chairman and CEO of Nissan Motor Co., said in a speech Wednesday in New York.
He later reminded reporters that he has warned hybrids could have limited appeal.
"At least admit I was the only guy saying, 'Watch out, the consumer decides, don't be excited about it,' " Ghosn said. "I have some kind of satisfaction of being a little bit right on this one."
He said he sees promise in alternative fuels, including corn-based ethanol, diesels and hydrogen. "I'm not a one-solution guy."
I'm not a one solution guy either.
Is John the Prius Prophet a one solution guy?
The doom and gloom hybrid sales articles are about to be proven wrong as gas prices spike and short attention span consumers make a mad rush to buy hybrids as the summer sales season begins.
Prius-2008 will have 9 mile (14.5 km) plugin range.
What's interesting is that many city transit buses are switching away from diesel fuel in favor of compressed natural gas--and transit buses could be among the first vehicles to use hydrogen fuel cells extensively (mostly because they're big enough to hold all the fuel cell hardware).
I think a few months ago some of you were discussing the merits/lackthereof of Hybrid taxis. Seems like they are doing great so far:
Ford reports that 31 Escape SUV hybrid taxis have already traveled a combined 100,000 miles in San Francisco. Chicago is adding hybrid cabs, too, and 18 hybrid taxis just went into service in New York City.
San Francisco cabbies generally give high marks to hybrid vehicles. Fuel costs are lower with hybrids, a benefit for the drivers who pay for their own fuel. Cabbies say that customers appreciate the extra space in the SUV Escape, and in the green-centric City by the Bay, some passengers tip better because they're riding in hybrid vehicles. And the hybrids' brakes last longer because of regenerative braking.
Last week, I saw a Hybrid Escape in New York Taxi.
Also there were lot of Toyota-Sienna Taxis.
If guess the high gas prices have moved the drivers from Crown Vic / Grand Marq to Sienna since its a V6 vehicle.
Now Escape Hybrid which gives 33-36 MPG city will be very ideal and 3K extra that they pay more than Crown Vic / Grand Marq could be recovered in a year.
Cabbie's can sell their Crown Vic / Grand Marq to the retiring boomers and buy Escape Hybrid.
Personally, I wish Escape replaces Sienna. After all American jobs are important.
Refer to Dec/Jan posts on 'what does buying American mean?'
I have 1 American vehicle and 1 Japanese vehicle right now. I will most likely by a 2nd Japanese car in the next few months. I buy what I want, but the only thing worse than a buying only from the Big 3 argument is a "Help America" campaign for buying a Camry or Sienna.
Not really, I was corrected on that subject. The Toyota stock (TM) you buy on the NYSE is not really Toyota stock. It is a holding company that owns shares of Toyota stock off the Tokyo exchange. That is the reason I would not buy TM. So yes when you buy a Sienna the money, after they dole a few pennies out to our workers for assembly, goes right straight into a Japanese bank. However, I would not buy a HEV over a Sienna. I just don't like little SUVs. I would rather have a mini-van or a truck based SUV.
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I am happy to see that at least someone has figured out the correct (short to medium term) solution to private transportation enegy needs. I hope that someday the major car makers understand that this is the way to go. Toyota's next Prius is suppose to have a 9 mile electric range. Although short on distance, it is a step in the right direction. Price will be the main factor (unless oil skyrockets) working against these vehicles. However, if an adequate electric range is achieved, it will be easily offset by gasoline prices.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/25/BUGK8J1JK11.DTL
Sale and manufacture of hybrids hit some potholes
The article is filled with bad logic, but take it for what it’s worth.
I agree, and it just confirms that Toyota was an absolute idiot when they didn't put a 4 cylindar in the Highlander Hybrid.
Many RH owners are not thrilled with the mileage as can be seen on those threads.
Toyota takes some hits for plodding and keeping one model the same as the market around them seems to change radically. Suddenly something like the V6 Camry comes flying into sight and it's 'Wow!!'
Consider a Hybrid Highlander completely redone starting at $30500 with 6 disc, BT, SKS, SR, VDIM, all the airbags, cloth or an ICE 270 hp version, same equipment also at $30500. The HH at 32 Hwy/35 city and the ICE at 29 Hwy/23 city. Which V6 do you prefer?
Or the RAV V6 4WD Loaded with everything @ $29800?
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/columnists/jeff_brown/14494350.htm
Talk about a ridiculous analysis! He concludes that hybrids don't make economic sense because the gas savings won't cover the new car payments to replace his 12-year-old "Ford Sable." Hey Jeff, did you consider that the car payments are also investing in a new car that will go another ten or twenty years after that Sable has disintegrated into nothing? (And FYI, while Ford made your Sable, you're actually driving a Mercury brand, not a Ford.)
But I guess if a team of Phd economists at Consumer Reports can't figure out how to do a proper life-cycle cost analysis, then it's unlikely we'll get a proper analysis from a beat reporter in Philadelphia who bought a crappy Sable twelve years ago and can't bear to part with it.
- Mark
A couple things strike me. First if you have not had any payments for at least 7 years you should have saved way more than enough to buy a new car. On the other hand I believe the reporter is being more environment friendly than the person that buys a new car every 5-8 years. That Sable if maintained properly is not polluting anymore than a 3-4 year old car with the same size engine. Taking into account the bulk of the SoX, NoX, PM & HC pollution is in the manufacture of a car. Only GHG is greater in the driving than the manufacturing.
I guess if a team of Phd economists at Consumer Reports can't figure out how to do a proper life-cycle cost analysis
Is the LCA that Toyota did any better? It shows the Prius having a manufacture to recycle lifespan of 100k kilometers or about 62K miles.
My comment was about the reporter's economic analysis, which I stil view as something appropriate for a 3rd grader.
- Mark
His analysis is correct, but it applies to all new cars. Unless the old car is really on it's last legs, it is cheaper to keep the old vehicle. If he spends $1000 per year over 5 years, that leaves about 24K dollars to cover the difference in MPG. It would take a long time to make up the difference. If you don't believe him, put the numbers in two columns, total up the costs and look at the bottom line.
Hybrid: Payments (bad) and higher MPG (good)
Current vehicle: No payments (good) and higher MPG (bad), and repairs (bad).
However, the payments are $400 / month for the new car - that is a lot of moolah to make up. If the older car is used on the highway, the MPG advantage may considerably less than urban driving.
Of course, here in CA, most people just have to have that new car. If one is in the market anyway, it is worth a look at - and analysis of - the hybrid vs. conventional car.
The rest of the article discusses the fact that one could buy a small ICE car and get very good MPG, which discounts the fact that many hybrid owners are interested in more "bells and whistles" on their vehicles. And the really small vehicles (that approach 40 MPG) are not as comfortable as the hybrids. But they are cheaper (in more ways than one).
Penn State Team Participates in Challenge X Hybrid-electric Competition
SYNOPSIS: Challenge X, a Department of Energy and corporate-sponsored advanced vehicle technology competition, pushes university teams to re-engineer their Equinox into a vehicle that is more fuel efficient and cleaner running while maintaining the utility for which the vehicle was originally designed.
Thanks,
Chintan Talati
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
"One early adopter allows himself a smile of self-satisfaction.
By Rob Fleming
Last summer, when gas first hit $3 per gallon, I bought a hybrid vehicle. Although I had been planning to make that purchase before gas prices hit the roof, now that they are once again soaring, I have to admit a bit of smugness has set in.
You see, I took a lot of flak when I bought the hybrid. I was bombarded with such comments as: "It's not worth it." "You'll never make your money back." "These cars don't get the mileage that's advertised." And on and on.
The scorn and ridicule I endured was not born out of a lack of belief in hybrid technology, which relies on a combination of gasoline and electricity to power the vehicle. In the end, the resistance to hybrid technology is an expression of fear of change."
That's a GREAT point. Anti-Hybrid sentiment is usually about the fear of change. Smugness is a natural defense against the attacks we get as hybrid buyers.
Hybrids proven cheaper
A recent study in british columbia predicts that over a five year period, most gas/electric vehicles are less expensive to operate than gasoline-only models
BRUCE CONSTANTINEAU, CanWest News Service
Published: Monday, July 10, 2006
It's cheaper to purchase and operate a new hybrid-electric vehicle than a comparable gas-powered model when you look at all the costs incurred over a five-year period, according to a B.C. Automobile Association study.
The study - which considered purchase price, financing costs, fuel costs and a provincial tax credit - said that in six out of seven vehicles examined, it was cheaper over the long term to buy a hybrid. The only exception was the Ford Escape hybrid, which worked out to be $1,957 more expensive to buy and operate for five years than its gas-fed equivalent.
B.C. Automobile Association representative Norm Hait said skyrocketing fuel costs have created greater savings for hybrid buyers, noting an association study last year, assuming fuel costs of 95 cents a litre, found hybrid vehicles were slightly more expensive to buy and operate over five years than conventional vehicles. But with the latest study assuming fuel costs of $1.15 a litre, it becomes cheaper to operate a hybrid.
"The higher price of a hybrid can put off a buying decision, but if you really look at the overall costs, the spread is not that big - if there is a spread at all," Hait said.
Pretty screwed up way to justify buying a hybrid. The 3% difference in financing is the biggest factor. In the case of the non-Hybrid Highlander it would be $4260 more over a 5 year loan period. So if you paid cash for the hybrid vs the non Hybrid Highlander it would cost you $3416 more to own the hybrid. By paying cash you save an additional $12000 in interest. But then it sounds like the Canadians are taking it in the shorts paying 50 grand for a Highlander Hybrid. I was just at Poway Toyota. They have 3 Hybrid Highlanders sitting out front. All marked at near invoice.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/The100mpgCarIsComi- ng.aspx
Let me say that again:
Toyota has sold more Hybrids as of 7-18-2006 than Cadillac, Buick or Mercedes has sold cars.
Well, that is interesting. That means the TCH, HH & RH have sold over 167,000 units as of June 2006. Prius had only sold 48k as of the 1st of July. The 3 aforementioned car companies have sold about 215,000 cars not counting SUVs. Either your writer is playing games to make Toyota look good or he is just not a thorough researcher. It looks like Buick alone sold almost 82k cars as of July 1st. I doubt that Toyota has even sold that many hybrids total. Must be a CNN affiliate.
Toyota Prius 48,156
Honda Civic 15,755
Toyota Highlander 18,127
Lexus RX 400h 11,193
Ford Escape 11,790
Mercury Mariner 205
Toyota Camry 7,386
Lexus GS 450h 525
Honda Accord 3,245
Honda Insight 489
Totals 116,871
Speaking of dubious reporting, can this be true?
"Ford to build 60-mpg F150
There is buzz emerging in the automotive world that Ford will launch a new hybrid version of the F150 in 2008 that will have a 400% improvement in fuel economy over the standard gasoline F150. Based on a joint research and technology development agreement between Ford and the EPA, dating back to 2001, the Hydraulic Hybrid Techology is poised to overtake the current gas-electric technology used in vehicles like Toyota’s Prius.
The system uses hydraulic pressure to recapture energy lost through braking, then releases the pressure during acceleration. The EPA estimates hydraulic hybrids could improve fuel economy up to 55 percent, versus 30 percent to 40 percent for a conventional gas-electric hybrid."
I doubt he would say that in a press conference if it were not true.
Oh that is reliable. It was a total play on words to confuse the reader. Yes the Prius outsold the top Buick by less than a thousand cars. None of the other hybrids sold near that many. So what was his point? The Ford and Chevy PU trucks outsold his cars. Does that mean they are better than a Camry or Corolla?