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If you want to go over this again. You know that the EU Prius comes standard with 8 airbags. The US version only 2 airbags. The EU version comes standard with VSC. IN the US version you need to buy at least the package # 4. The EU version comes with 4 wheel disk brakes. That is not available with the US version last I looked. For the 2006 model the NHTSA is still showing the Prius with 4 star rating across the board. I have seen many posters poo poo cars that were not all in the 5 star excellent range.
Comparing the HCH to the Prius. We have real world mileage nearly identical. Emissions has to go to the Civic as it has a 9 or better in all 50 states. The Prius is rated an 8 in 45 of the 50 states. And the safety rating is Excellent in 3 out of 4 crash tests.
Realworld mileage is close but does favor the larger vehicle by 5-10% which is noteworthy of itself.
Emissions favors the Civic slightly.
Performance and acceration favors the Prius.
Safety ratings: the NHTSA is not a valid reviewer since it's tests are so outdated. But its all we have here..
Except the European test is harder and the Prius is tops in that crash test, ( just like the Passat ). 4W disks and VSC have nothing to do with crashtest worthiness ( survivability ). Oh btw in the States while SC/AB + VSC/Trac are not standard, well over 80% and maybe even 90+% of the vehicles delivered have all the saftety features since the new model came out in Oct '03. This is a non-issue unless you are grasping to find something negative about the Prius.
Until the IIHS makes it's determination and publishes its findings the issue is in on hold. But, two very large insurance companies are offering discounts for Prius owners to switch to them. Now would you think these companies would be soliciting business from at-risk drivers in unsafe vehicles. Not likely.
That is your response to the clearly incorrect "Neither hybrid can use the electric motor without the traction battery" statement?
Wow! All right. Time for a lesson in how the two different hybrids actually work...
ASSIST has 1 gas engine and 1 electric motor. They are connected to a single shaft, which causes both to always rotate at the same RPM. Independent control is not possible. They always have a dependency on each other. That limits the range of efficiency opportunities. It also means that creating & consuming electricity at the same time is not possible, affecting the supply available.
FULL has 1 gas engine and 2 electric motors. They don't share a single connection. A power-split-device allows them to operate independently of each other. That provides for the creation & consumption of electricity at the same time, which means torque from electricity is available without use of the battery-pack. It also means the battery-pack can be recharged while both power from engine & motor is sent ot the wheels. Additionally, engine activity can stop entirely while 1 of the motors propels the vehicle all by itself.
Put an entirely different way, the "assist" has a PASSIVE electrical system and the "full" has a PERSISTENT. Features like ample electric A/C are only available with the persistent, since supply is much more limited with the passive.
JOHN
Careful on this one. Yes, the acceleration of the Prius might be a tad better in certain conditions, but the handling/performance of the Civic is clearly superior. No contest here, kdh.
And I would have to say that when all is said and done, the ACE body on the Civic will likely land it a better safety rating than a Prius, IMO.
Farmer's Insurance gives a big discount for all hybrids. I got $486 per year discount on my Hybrid Sierra. I think it is more of a statement than a reflection on the safety of the hybrids.
As far as pointing out the weakness in the Prius. This was in direct response to several posts stating how the Honda hybrid system was less viable than the HSD system design wise. That is debatable. I can tell you for a fact. More Prius complaints are on file at the NHTSA Office of Defects Investigaion than the Civic hybrid. I think you will find if you research that website, that the Prius may be the most complained about vehicle that Toyota has ever sold. No matter how much people love the Prius it is wrought with problems.
A growing need for hybrid mechanics
Jim Sawyer and Stan Urban are not trying to reinvent the wheel. But in trying to rewrite Macomb County Community College's auto technicians' curriculum to include classes on repairing hybrid cars, the two said it sometimes felt like it.
The college, in Clinton Township, recently received a 3-year, $200,000 grant from the National Science Foundation to cover the costs of creating the new curriculum.
But soon after the college won the grant, the hard work began. Sawyer, dean of Engineering and Advanced Technology at the college, said he and Urban knew of no other college in the state teaching a hybrid service-technicians class. Nationally, classes on the subject were few and far between. And there wasn't a known "Introduction to Hybrids" or "Hybrids 101" textbook out there from which to take tips.
I've seen some complaints from hybrid owners that they're not exactly thrilled with how knowledgable some mechanics are are hybrids.
What a fantastic example of an attempt to undermine the success of Prius. This one goes in my blogs. Thanks!
Prius owners have a heightened awareness, due to having a 7-inch screen on their dashboard providing constant feedback.
So naturally, the most common complaint is when the MPG suddenly drops after having routine maintenance performed. In a traditional vehicle, you'd be clueless. So there are no complaints. But in a Prius, owners discover that the mechanics added too much oil and deflated the tires down to the minimum. That has an undeniable affect on MPG.
Doing searches online, you'll find that there were a ton of complaints about the first tires available for the Classic model. They only had a treadwear rating of 160. That is so horribly soft that rubber marks are left on the pavement from even simple things like turning into a parking spot. But the solution was no big deal, just replace the worn out tires with something better. And they have. Popular choices now range from 560 to 800. Those tires last dramatically longer. You'll also find complaints for the HSD model, due to the tires being just the basic stock type. But again, replacement and a trade-at-purchase option has solved that, since better tires are widely available.
Running out of gas was another complaint of the past. But after a filler-neck change to accommodate non-typical pumps and no longer driving well over 30 miles past the "Add Fuel" warning solved that.
The whole stalling issue got blown way out of proportion, since some were due to not yet getting the update already available. But after getting that update, not a single owner has reported having a stall occur. So it is appropriate to place that in the "first year fix" category for HSD... clearly not an issue anymore.
JOHN
A vehicle with no electric motor propulsion contribution whatsoever is not a hybrid.
Having engine auto-stop is just a traditional vehicle enhancement. To be a hybrid, some type of combining is required. Simply making the starter & battery larger certainly doesn't qualify. Where are the new components? A combination isn't possible if nothing is added.
Sierra is just a "me too" marketing spin.
JOHN
http://www.startribune.com/535/story/324696.html
Many have complained of a big drop in mileage after the update. Do you have an explanation for that?
Other areas of complaint to the ODI:
Door latches locks and linkage.
Headlights, foglights and dimmer switches.
Brake failures.
Battery fires.
Speed (cruise) control not working.
Poor handling in crosswinds.
Visibility issues.
Snow & Ice driving issues. (traction control)
This is not an attempt to undermine hybrids. It is the purpose of a forum to make others aware of problem areas in a given vehicle.
Example:
I read a lot of problems with VW, and still bought a Passat which has been flawless for a year. I am aware of possible problem areas and keep a watchful eye.
Let's stick to going over the current news items concerning hybrids here. I KNOW that a variety of subjects will come up here, but this discussion is more for a quick reaction and discussion to the items in the news.
At least they are not making big fools of themselves by forcing plug-in hybrid flex-fuel vehicles, as California did with the ZEV mandate. It is best to remember the average Prius if converted to E85 would be getting in the neighborhood of 38 MPG combined. Or about a 20% loss in FE. I don't know about MN. E85 is about a dollar more a gallon in CA. It was $3.50 per gallon last I checked.
Oh, I never questioned that Toyota had more motors...
I think the dictionary definition of motor
"Motor - a device that converts electrical energy into mechanical energy using forces exerted by magnetic fields on current-carrying conductors. In general, it is any relatively small engine, such as the internal-combustion engine in an automobile."
isn't particularly "vague".
Lots of well-stated facts, but unfortunately none of them to the point. We are not discussing when everything is working, we are discussing when the traction battery is having problems.
My statement is correct, and I stand by it.
With the Prius, if the traction battery is not over 20% charge, the car won't start, and thus it will not move. It cannot operate the electric motor without the traction battery.
With the IMA, if the traction battery is not working, no electric power is provided to the electric motors. However, the car will run off of the ICE engine only. It cannot operate the electric motor without the traction battery.
In both of the above examples, the electric motors cannot function. Unless you can refute the two above paragraphs, that translates as "Neither hybrid can use the electric motor without the traction battery".
The Prius has an advantage when everything is working - it can move from a full stop using electric only.
The HCH has an advantage should the battery fail - it can move without having a working battery.
I haven't checked the NTSB site lately, but there were a couple of instances of stalling in Prius with the update installed. They were reported in the Prius Software Problems forum. Personally, I think they may have been hardware related, but we never got any further feedback on those reports.
Replacing every locomotive in North America manufactured before 2001 with GE's hybrid technology would, in a year, cut nitrogen oxide emissions as much as removing one third of all cars from U.S. roads.
Diesel cars and trucks are not the NOx problem.
Hybrid solutions
You can dance around the facts all you want, but you cannot avoid them.
Without the IMA functional, the ICE will be dead the moment it is shut off. So that supposed advantage is short lived. The reason is simple and irrefutable too... because without IMA, the 12-volt battery cannot be charged. Once that 12-volt supply consumed, the car is dead.
The other fact you are attempting to avoid is the fact that the ICE is much more likely to fail than the IMA anyway. Electric drive system have statistically proven more reliable... further reducing whatever benefit that might have served.
By the way, if the ICE fails in a Prius, you can keep driving to get out of harms way. If that happens in a hybrid like Civic, the vehicle stops almost immediately.
So in the end, what the heck is your point?
The odds of an entire battery-pack failing is so much lower than a gasoline engine that the discussion is rather pointless. In fact, you stand a much higher probably to be involved in a typical accident than to worry about something so unlikely.
JOHN
Clearly everyone sees that there are differences in the HSD and IMA applications of hybrid technology. Each has certain advantages and disadvantages that are inherently linked to the nature of each's unique attributes.
They each make an important contribution to the advancement of hybrid technology and they each achieve greater fuel efficiency than non-hybrid counterparts, and overall, their reliability seems to be surprisingly adequate for both, with barely a bump or two in the road.
TagMan
The Battery Management Unit will not let the pack discharge to less than 40% SOC. So, the situation you are basing on, will not even happen -- unless the car sits there without being driven for, who knows, a couple of years.
It's like saying a traditional car (or HCH) will not move if the 12-volt lead acid battery does not have enough CCA power to start the car. What's the point?
Dennis
Green Pass Discount Plan : Offers a special 10% discount to Hybrid vehicles getting at least 45 miles to the gallon and meeting the following emissions standards
http://www.hybridscoop.com/2006/03/24/ny-hybrid-drivers-now-get-10-off-e-zpass/
Can you point out a refernce for this claim? I think the 12 volt will be charged by the ICE, unlike the Prius. I know for certain that some Insights have run for weeks without the electrical systems working. I doubt the 12 volt battery lasted that long without charging.
"Electric drive system have statistically proven more reliable... further reducing whatever benefit that might have served."
That is true of the electric motor, but we are not talking about the electric motor; we are talking about the complex, interactive, computer controlled HSD, which has many components.
"By the way, if the ICE fails in a Prius, you can keep driving to get out of harms way. If that happens in a hybrid like Civic, the vehicle stops almost immediately."
Yup, never claimed otherwise. You can go that 2 miles...
"So in the end, what the heck is your point?"
I thought my point was obvious. The IMA has the advantage of working without the battery pack and electric systems being available. Conversely, the Prius has the advantage of starting from zero with electric only.
I was responding to people who claimed that the IMA was not a good system. The point is that both IMA and HSD have different strengths and weaknesses.
How do you think this 20% rule was discovered? Answer: by a Prius owner when the car would not start. So it can happen. Also, I think that Toyota recommends the vehicle be driven at least a couple times a month? Though maybe that is for the 12 volt...
I agree that such an event is unlikely unless a computer error occurs, or a hardware part fails.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4852448.stm
Eco-friendly hybrid car unveiled
Hybrid cars have a combined petrol and electric engine
A new environmentally friendly hybrid car has been launched, although its manufacturer admits half of UK drivers know little about this type of vehicle.
Of the drivers who said they knew about hybrids, more than 40% did not know that it was a vehicle which operated using a combination of petrol and electric power.
Toyota dealerships are paid a bounty by Toyota corporate for every hybrid battery they collect and send in for recycling. So in theory, the consumer shouldn't be charged anything for getting the battery recycled. Also, Toyota has setup a recycling center specifically for the hybrid batteries.
While there were early concerns about electrocution risks to EMT's, Toyota addressed those concerns by providing free training materials to the EMTs. In addition, the high-voltage power lines are clearly marked in orange and run underneath the car, where firefighters/EMTs aren't very likely to be using the jaws of life, or otherwise cutting into the car. Also, when an accident occurs that sets off the airbags, a circuit breaker trips, isolating the hybrid battery from the car. Pretty much nil chance of electrocution these days.
As to the HAZMAT concerns, the hybrid batteries aren't lead acid based, but rather they're NiMh. Permanently sealed against leakage in any orientation or situation. You don't worry about your laptop or cell phone battery leaking when you drop it, do you?
This info is all based on the Prius, but should be the same for the other Toyota/Lexus hybrids. I don't know if other hybrid manufacturers do the same, but would hope so.
But honestly, does anyone think you will actually be able to get one for that price? If Toyota doesn't package it to death, the dealers will add their ADM. I'd be interested in people's opinion. Personally, I don't think you'll be able to get one for less than $30K.
I wouldnt because I never use Navi.
And now, having lived with those two features for a while, I can't see getting another car without them. Just as I can't see getting another mini-van without some of the features that our Sienna came with (Laser Cruise Control, DVD player, 110 AC outlets, auto-dimming rear view and driver's side mirror).
CNW Marketing Research Inc. spent two years collecting data on the energy necessary to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage. This includes such minutia as plant to dealer fuel costs, employee driving distances, electricity usage per pound of material used in each vehicle and literally hundreds of other variables.
To put the data into understandable terms for consumers, it was translated into a "dollars per lifetime mile" figure. That is, the Energy Cost per mile driven.
For example, while the industry average of all vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2005 was $2.28 cents per mile, the Hummer H3 (among most SUVs) was only $1.949 cents per mile. That figure is also lower than all currently offered hybrids and Honda Civic at $2.42 per mile.
"If a consumer is concerned about fuel economy because of family budgets or depleting oil supplies, it is perfectly logical to consider buying high- fuel-economy vehicles," says Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research, Inc. "But if the concern is the broader issues such as environmental impact of energy usage, some high-mileage vehicles actually cost society more than conventional or even larger models over their lifetime.
link title
I guess we should all run out and buy a Scion xB.
http://www.startribune.com/562/story/343977.html
I'm pretty sure you're right and the insight will run without the electrical system. I believe I've read that several people have even taken the electrics out to save weight.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/03/report_toyota_p.html#more
After the Camry next month...
Sienna, HH, Gen3 Prius, Corolla(?), Tundra, Rx500h(?), 450h, 600h
Who with a modicum of common sense would spend $10k-$12k for additional batteries, that only save $600 maximum per year in gas? That is a 16-20 year payback if the batteries last that long, which is doubtful.
That does not address the fact that you will void the warranty on your expensive hybrid. It is all too surrealistic for me.
Also the article mentioned possible rebates from eletric utilities for people charging their cars at night and balancing the grid--maybe $1000 a year?
You may have missed the article I posted a few days ago regarding the efforts to fund research of plug-in hybrids. These would be designed from the ground up to be plug-in, so there would be no warranty issues.
Also, consider the benefits of NOT importing billions of gallons of oil from OPEC each year. What would that be worth?
Straight from the manufacturer. Unlike writers that are wishful thinking. I suggest you read all the FAQS. A 35 mile range at under 34 MPH is golf cart territory. Not my idea of a $12k enhancement. The quickest way to ridding ourselves of OPEC would be a diesel car using biodiesel. Too many shortsighted individuals making decisions. Many at the behest of the oil company lobbyists. Hybrid owners are falling right in behind with blinders on.
26. How much will the EDrive conversion cost?
Our goal is to offer the conversion to consumers at under $12,000. Final pricing cannot be determined until the commercialized version has been developed.
http://www.edrivesystems.com/faq.html
This innovation is not cheap, so the company is targeting fleet buyers before individual consumers. In quantities greater than 100, the Prius L5 is US $9,500; No word yet on the pricing for the Ford models, but since it's more than twice as powerful, it will carry an even higher price tag
hymotion
Personally I find this approach worthy of further research. Sticking all our eggs in one basket--biodiesel--seems shortsighted. A combination of solutions, including bio-fuels, seems more logical to me.
I have not advocated that. I also believe in a balanced approach. Remember the EV mandate? It became a 2 plus billion dollar boondoggle for GM and the taxpayers. You might think it was worth it because we got NiMh batteries as a result. Now the rage is Li-Ion batteries. Will they prove worthwhile for plug in hybrids? I have no idea. I am not holding my breath. These micro solutions to our energy use are very deceptive. They do not make a dent that can be seen in our fossil fuel usage. That includes biodiesel. It appears to me that many will buy a Prius to justify a longer commute. Where is the savings in fossil fuel there? Whether we buy a Hummer or Insight the best way to save fuel is to drive less.
And biodiesel in its worst production ratio comes out ahead of Ethanol. Biodiesel can be run in the tractors that produce the crops. The crops are also much wider in range than what is currently available for Ethanol. The amount of Ethanol that is required to satisfy the loss of MTBE is not being met by our current production. We are having to buy from Brazil with a 54 cent per gallon tariff. It is forcing gas prices up. Thankfully I bought diesel vehicles. Diesel has gone down as gas is going up.
Is Biodiesel cleaner than gas. In some ways yes some no.
What is the fuel economy of an EDrive-equipped car that drives in low speed city driving and 55mph freeway driving?
You tell me. I know that it is not able to drive to and from work on electricity for the average CA commuter. Anyone that has an extra $40k to buy a Prius equipped with Edrive, I say go for it. I got better things to spend my money on.
You could do more for the environment by spending $12k on a new entry level car and give it to someone you know with an old beater that is spewing crap into the air.
Wait, that is too logical. Logic and hybrids are at odds.
Either you still don't understand how the hybrid system in Prius works are you are intentionally misleading. Which is it?
The 35 MPH limit is simply for EV only. Stealth still takes full advantage of extra electricity. So does driving with the engine running, even on the highway.
That enhancement provides a MPG gain well beyond that distance & speed.
JOHN
The question was not is biodiesel cleaner than gas, but is it cleaner than a car running on electricity.
The answer to the question about the fuel economy of an EDrive-equipped car that drives in low speed city driving and 55 mph freeway driving, i.e. typical commuting scenario for millions of people, is "about 200 mpg." That was in the FAQs that you told me to read. I assumed you had read them also. You should also know after reading the FAQs that we are not talking about driving to and from work only on electricity (not for most people anyway), but using electricity to extend the fuel economy of hybrids into the 100-200+ mpg range.
You are fixated on the cost of a brand-new technology before it has even hatched. You know that the costs will go down as they are spread over many units.
Many peolpe want the Prius for a highway/commuter car that has access to the HOV lanes as well. Size isn't a factor so much as silly high mileage and the incentives and PZEV sticker on the bumper. They want a Hybrid. Period. But $22-24K out the door is a lot of money - it totally defeats the "economical" point of a hybrid when it's so expensive that you never actually end up saving money over just buying a Corolla.
Being able to get a hybrid of any kind for abot $15-$16K really IS important to many people.
- Best subcompact on the market.
- Seats 5
- same mileage as an Insight
- $16K.
Yeah - it will sell well. Very well.
You may very well be right in the CA market if that is where you are. In other areas the reasons for buying a hybrid are just the same generally as buying any other vehicle.
It's got to ..
be dependible and reliable
be comfortable to sit in and drive ( size from above )
be acceptable/attractive stylistically
be affordable
have the correct features for the specific buyer
be econonomical if it's being bought for fuel efficiency
The HFH will meet all of that for the segment of buyers now looking for a hybrid in the $teens. It won't have much effect on the Prius but it may on the HCH and maybe the Corolla hybrid soon. but then last week Toyota announced that w/in 6 yrs they plan to have a hybrid option for every model. See post #4985 just above.
I am surprised that the pro hybrid folks did not jump on your misrepresentation of the Prius Edrive mileage projections. This is what the manufacturer says.
Q7: Can I really get over 200mpg with EDrive on my Prius?
Yes, but it requires low speeds (55mph freeway) and mild acceleration in city driving. Most Prius EDrive users will likely get closer to 100mpg