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The vehicles that have inherent defects in design ( V6 hybrids to the mass market such as the HH and HAH ) are going to struggle. Most buyers are not interested in V8 power for family style vehicles. This is the region of the luxury vehicle like the 400h.
Honda has an inherent defect in it's IMA so all Honda's will suffer in comparison to others. Honda put the Insight, HCH and HAH into the market just to show that it could be just as 'green' as Toyota. The only problem is that the IMA is competitively capable only in very small light vehicles like the Civic and smaller. IMO it was a rushed project by Honda and one that they have to back away from gracefully.
The new TCH will be telling. It's in a well respected and loved package, the Camry, but doesnt offer quite the savings of a Prius.
Ford has problems in that Ford has problems and the FEH is not immune from them.
I tend to agree with you. I think the TCH could suffer the same fate as the rest, excluding of course the Prius. I would go so far as to say if Toyota were to build a non-hybrid Prius it would kill the Prius hybrid also. There are only so many techno geeks that have to have the latest technology. The Ford Escape of all the SUV hybrids should have sold better. It gets in the real world closer to the EPA mileage rating than any of the other hybrids. People with any sense of business will make a gas saving determination. That is exactly what CR did and got shot at for a slight error in TCO. Most of the hybrid owners posting here, just wanted a hybrid for the image and the mileage was frosting. Joe public does not give a rats behind about having a green image. Leave that to Kermit. Give us tangible value for our buck.
Hopefully you are not talking about the lack of ability to run on battery alone. That is a missing feature which is helpful, but is not in any way a "defect".
If that is your "defect" then all hybrids are inherently defective. They all should have the capability to run on battery-only for the typical American commute and should have the capability to be plugged in for battery recharging. This would be much more effective especially when the ICE could then be completely eliminated.
The plug-in hybrid held some hope for me. I don't see it ever becoming mainstream. Too expensive for what you get.
Smaller, lighter components for large hybrid vehicles
DENSO Corporation has developed four new components for hybrid vehicles: a hybrid control computer, a battery-monitoring unit, a dc-dc converter and an electric compressor for air conditioning systems.
Larger hybrids taking longer to sell
LOS ANGELES — While buyers are still hungry for cheaper gas-thrifty hybrid cars, some of the bigger models are sitting longer on sales lots.
The smaller Toyota Prius and Honda Civic gas-electric hybrids remain hits that are in short supply. But the luxury Lexus RX 400h SUV and Honda Accord sedan hybrids have been taking longer to sell than their conventional counterparts.
I have encountered an abundance of articles pointing out that hybrids will not save you money through gas saving compared to their non hybrid counter parts.
Why is it ok to spends 10's of thousands of dollars for a luxury suv that you drive around in city traffic but not 3-5k more for a hybrid version of the same care?
Either there is a conspiracy against these cars success or the people being paid to promote those cars are incompetent?
Green Cars Now
Who said its ok to spend 10's of thousands of dollars for a luxury SUV? As far as I am concerned spending extra for a luxury SUV is foolish, spending even more for a few miles a gallon more is even worse.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I assume you are referring to the RX400h. In San Diego the TMV is $8k difference from an equally equipped RX330. The question I am sure that most people, including those that write articles in the press is "What do you get for the Premium"? You get a very slight improvement in mileage and emissions. The reviews and owners all claim better performance on the highway and degraded performance off road. I am with snakeweasel on this one. An SUV, that is not truly an SUV, solely for driving around town is a waste of money and fossil fuel.
The bad press on the Prius is almost completely based on much lower than advertised mileage in real world driving. The stalling issue was also a big blotch on the Prius and Toyota.
It's not completely fair to say the "same performance from a hybrid as a non hybrid" though, as there is yet to be produced a true hybrid full sized pickup. And the only hybrid suitable for pulling a boat or trailer is the Toyota highlander, not exactly in my scope of suitability. The cargo area would be caked in mud in a week...
It sounds like you need a vehicle that is designed for heavy snow and mud. None of the current hybrids are recommended for that kind of duty. You can check out the 4WD vehicles that are the cleanest on the EPA website. Many are very close to the hybrids. Your vehicle needs are what is most important. Buying a vehicle that might leave you stranded in deep snow or mud to spew one less pound of pollution per year is not smart.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
They rushed this to market in order to be first but slippling sales shows that while the booster makes the Accord a very powerful V6 it doesnt meet the demands of the largest part of the market. It makes the HAH a 'peripheral' vehicle. Large companies like Honda, Toyota and GM can't live on 'peripheral' vehicles. It has to mainstream everything to increase volume and drive down costs. Honda is already backing away from the HAH correctly in the same way it did witht he Insight.
With it's small booster pack and small electric motor of about 15 hp the IMA couldnt be linked to the 2.4L Honda engine because it would suffer too badly in comparision to the new TCH in output and FE. OTOH added to the V6, where it is capable, makes it too expensive for the typical CamCord buyer. In reality the HAH belongs in the Acura line as a 'TL-H'. Acura buyers will pay a premium for V8 power and handling.
GMC Sierra and Chevrolet Silverado Hybrids both will tow 7700 lbs. They will also go off road when equipped with 4WD. Mud is easily removed from the bed with a hose.
Highlander Hybrid will only tow 3500 lbs. My boat weighs over 4,000 lbs when trailered, so there is no Toyota hybrid that will tow it.
Only 4WD SUV that can tow it and obtain 25 mpg plus on highway (not while towing
Honda could put the IMA in every single vehicle they produce tomorrow if they wished, because it fits into the current design without modifying the basic platform of the vehicle. Toyota cannot do that.
Second, the IMA allows the vehicle to drive without the traction battery, while the HSD from Toyota must have a working traction battery to even start the vehicle.
Third, check your specs, the 2006 Civic has more HP from it's motor than you claim. Honda found a way to increase HP without increasing IMA size.
Lastly, Honda is quite capable of surviving with "niche" vehicles. Hence their moves with the Ridgeline and Element.
The real issue, however, is whether or not it makes marketing sense. That is still questionable.
Misleading, at best.
12-volt batteries start larger engines in traditional vehicles. Even a battery-pack with only a teeny-tiny bit of power available can start the engine of a "full" hybrid. So that comment holds no real weight. Give it up.
As for IMA allowing drive without the battery, why don't you reveal the whole story? In other words, IMA cannot use the electric motor without the battery. All it has available is the engine, due to having only 1 motor.
"Full" hybrids have 2 motors. That means the impressive torque from electricity is available even without the battery-pack, since it can (and is rather abundantly & routinely) generated on-the-fly for immediate use.
JOHN
That is not a defect, that is simply the design Honda chose. If they chose otherwise, they could use a more powerful motor. They simply haven't chosen to do so, however, there are benefits to going with a design which does not rely on the motor so much.
With it's small booster pack and small electric motor of about 15 hp the IMA couldnt be linked to the 2.4L Honda engine because it would suffer too badly in comparision to the new TCH in output and FE.
That's a nice bit of speculation, but it's not at all accurate.
Honda went with the V6 because it's shorter than the I4. With the engine mounted transversely, the I4 plus the extra length of the IMA unit will not fit in the Accord's engine bay. The V6 is actually shorter (3 cylinders long, instead of 4) and fits even with the IMA unit added between the engine and transmission.
As for your use of the term "defect", I think you've got it backwards. A defect is when something doesn't work the way it should.
Perhaps because they are more similar to ordinary engine-powered vehicles, the Honda hybrids tend to get mileage closer to the EPA estimates. The Toyotas (and Fords) boast much higher EPA numbers, but do not come as close to attaining them in the real world.
Therefore, the Hondas are closer to working as advertised, while the Toyotas are more "defective".
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but the trend in hybrid enthusiasts to think of the vehicle with better electronics as the sexier vehicle. Not true. If the goal is to produce a vehicle which gets better mileage and emits fewer pollutants, there are many solutions. Weight savings, improvements to the gas engine, and other measures can be just as effective as electronics.
And a very good one. And it wasn't by accident.
Remember Honda's long-time marketing saying was something like this: "We keep it simple".
The IMA is in fact very adaptable and simple. It will also prove to be a winner in the new upcoming Honda Fit, where it will easily get somewhere around 55-65 MPG.
Simple and efficient. Nothing defective about that!!!
TagMan
By design ( lack of space ) or to keep it simple it remains that the IMA just isnt as powerful as the HSD even as a booster. IMO it was a stopgap methodology in order to get onto the hybrid scene first. It is for certain less expensive and more flexible I will agree but..
In the Civic vs the Prius the ICE+IMA is neither as powerful nor as efficient as the ICE+HSD.
In the two V6 hybrids it's the same story HAH vs HH. In fact the larger HH is far more powerful and nearly as efficient as the auto.
Honda wont put out a 2.4L HAH in competition with the TCH. Honda won't have it's flagship vehicle suffer in comparison to Toyota's.
New technology may change all of the foregoing but absent that I see Honda limiting it's hybrids to it's smaller vehicles only.
The fact that the engine and motor are bonded together is a definite limitation. Both devices always rotate at the same RPM, which reduces the engine & motor size combinations and makes the plug-in option later less beneficial.
"Full" hybrids are already designed to take full advantage of future battery improvements. The "assist" type are not.
JOHN
With waiting times of several months to buy a Smart car in Canada and hybrid cars being sold as fast as they are received Ford seems more interested in producing large suburbans and other gas guzzlers despite decreasing interest in them.
Are the profit margains low on hybrids or do north american car companies have other reasons for not pursuing hybrids like Honda and Toyota are?
PFezziwig ,Green Cars Now
Batteries? That's so 1999.
The idea is to eliminate weight. Weight degrades performance, handling, fuel economy, and some would argue safety. Batteries are large and weigh far too much at this point in time. Which is one reason why using a more powerful electric motor is not necessarily the best idea. You need a serious battery to power it.
No, I think the next advancement in hybrids will come from the design of the gas engine. The HCCI technology that is on the horizon is a likely candidate.
I'm obviously a fan of Honda, but I see no reason why people are so optimistic about a hybrid Fit's fuel economy. The non-hybrid gets about the same mileage as a Civic. (Our version anyway.) So why would a hybrid version be so much better than a hybrid Civic?
I thought the goal was to reduce emissions & consumption.
Adding another 175 pounds to a 2004 Prius has proven to improve both, using 2005 battery technology. Imagine what that same 2004 Prius will be able to do by taking advantage of 2010 battery technology. There isn't that much of a weight concern now, with respect to the 2,890 pound hybrid. Imagine what the lighter batteries & hybrids of the future will deliver.
In other words, keep focused on the goal.
JOHN
If the goal is more running time on the battery and less on the ICE, why is the new Camry Hybrid getting a smaller electric motor and battery? It is going more toward the IMA concept of shutting down the ICE while stopped. Less stealth running on electric motor. I do not recall any of the reviewers mentioning the speed that the ICE kicks in on the TCH.
You are assuming a lot with projecting battery technology into 2010. Li-Ion batteries are still a LONG way from safe enough to be used in a car built by a big auto maker. Concept and after market is their limit currently. Plus adding about $10k to the already over priced Prius is hardly a plus.
It costs about the same to make a $15000 auto.. a $25000 auto and a $40000 SUV.
Let's say respectively.. $10000 ... $15000 ... $20000
The math is obvious.
Ford has 3 hybrids that sit on the lots gathering dust. The premium when you compare the hybrid Escape to the Non-hybrid Escape is not practical for the average buyer.
I think what you are seeing with the Big 3 is a waiting game. They have in all the rest of the world great diesel cars, small PU trucks and SUVs. Diesel is much more practical than a hybrid. Hybrids are complex pieces of equipment that are too expensive to build and make a profit on. Why do you think there is a waiting list for the Prius? Toyota is not in a hurry to sell anymore than they have to. They would much rather you went into the dealership and bought a Corolla or Camry than put your name on a waiting list for a Prius. They only sold 6500 last month. How many did they build? Good question. Why the wait list if they are building the 15k per month they promised 2 years ago. Toyota does not want to sell Prii. They thought if they built a hybrid so ugly no one would like it. Kind of like all the ugly dogs people buy. No good explanation, just human nature.
PS
I love the Smart twofor diesel. It is about ugly also. I would buy one if they are offered in the USA.
12-volt batteries start larger engines in traditional vehicles. Even a battery-pack with only a teeny-tiny bit of power available can start the engine of a "full" hybrid. So that comment holds no real weight. Give it up."
I suggest you reread your specs . The Prius is prevented from operating if the traction battery is below 20% charge. Period. No, the engine won't start. It has nothing to do with the 12 volt battery - the engine computer won't let the vehicle start.
"As for IMA allowing drive without the battery, why don't you reveal the whole story? In other words, IMA cannot use the electric motor without the battery. All it has available is the engine, due to having only 1 motor."
OK, let's present the full comparison story. Neither hybrid can use the electric motor without the traction battery; only the IMA can move the vehicle in such situations.
- The IMA hybrid has lost it's traction battery. It will start and run, though it will be under powered.
- The Toyota HSD has lost it's traction battery. It sits there like a paperweight waiting for the tow truck.
I'm unsure of what some of your comments meant; both the IMA and the HSD have two motors. It is just that only the IMA can work with ICE only in emergency situations. I think perhaps you meant two independent propulsion systems? However, considering the limited range of electric only in the Prius, I'm not sure it is that much better - in essence, both hybrids are gasoline - electric propulsion. Just different forms and means of hybrid technology.
The HSD implementation has some advantages, and some disadvantages. Same for the IMA.
6500 units ===> seasonality only, the same as last year.
OTOH moving Camry's and Corolla's are key to the success of the entire product line. Everything revolves around the Camry. Toyota's has no preference amongst vehicles as long as the Camry doesnt suffer. Retail stores OTOH do want you to buy what's in inventory now rather than buy something in the future. But that's a matter of short term thinking vs long term thinking. The most progressive and successful stores are long term thinkers. The ones who have to pay the month rent urgently have to sell NOW!
It isn't. Where did you get that incorrect information?
The 105kW electric motor is undeniably more powerful than 50kW in Prius.
The 650v operational voltage is clearly higher than the 500v in Prius.
.
> I do not recall any of the reviewers mentioning the speed that the ICE kicks in on the TCH.
You won't, since speed is not the determining factor. It is the draw from the battery-pack. In Prius, that tolerance (where it's more efficient to use the engine too) is 10kW.
JOHN
That is absolutely false. "Full" hybrids (HSD & Ford) generate electricity for immediate use via the engine, not needing to draw from the battery-pack at all. It can, and does to exploit efficiency benefits. But is not necessary for the motor to provide thrust.
.
> both the IMA and the HSD have two motors
That is just plain wrong. "Assist" hybrids (IMA) only have 1 motor. No wonder there are so many misunderstandings here. That fundamental difference has a profound effect on the operation of the propulsion system.
JOHN
The bigger picture for Honda is that they were the FIRST to market hybrids and that they could have done anything they wanted by now. The fact that they are staying with the IMA approach makes sense, especially in light of the fact that the marketplace is snapping up all the "economical" smaller hybrid vehicles, but not the more expensive and luxurious larger hybrids. That's why the Honda Fit hybrid will sell very well.
So far, huge MPG's at an easy entry price on a well-equipped vehicle is the winning combination for hybrids it would seem.
TagMan
The experiences of the Insight and HAH, while nicely made, show that getting there first is more important to Honda than staying there with vehicles that the public will actually buy each year. The Civic is the exception but the IMA lends itself to this smaller vehicle more than to a larger vehicle. The Fit hybrid may enjoy good success as well. In the longer term however Honda's other developments may supercede it's hybrid efforts. For now though there is one strong Honda entry in this segment, one is dead, one is withering away and one is still on the horizon.
On balance the Toyota entries are not wildly successful, except for the Prius. Both makers may have misunderstood the desire of the market to buy luxurious V8's out of a Honda or Toyota store. The TCH will be a more valid test of the acceptance of hybrids if the pricing is in the mid $20K range.
Bragging rights were well-earned, but I would not go so far as to say that they were MORE about PR than the business of manufacturing and selling sutomobiles, which is, IMO, what Honda is about first and foremost. Again, they can design and manufacture these sytems the way they determine it makes the most sense. I agree with their approach for the most part, particuarly for the smaller lighter vehicles. I think they will have some challenges, as does Toyota on the larger heavier vehicles. Bottom line is that they ave achieved very environmentally-friendly, fuel efficient vehicles that are well-made and affordable.
I give Honda tremendous credit for spending HUGE money in other areas as well, such as fuel cell technology and safety systems.
TagMan
Really?
first PRIUS sold = DECEMBER 1997
first INSIGHT sold = DECEMBER 1999
What part of "first" is not understood here?
JOHN
State fuels hybrid-vehicle sales
Demand strains rebate program
Wednesday, March 22, 2006
BY DAVE DeKOK
Of The Patriot-News
By the end of April, the state Department of Environmental Protection expects to deplete the $1.5 million budgeted for its hybrid-vehicle rebate program.
A new pot of money will become available July 1, the start of the state's fiscal year, although the budgeted amount will be reduced to $1 million. If you purchase a hybrid vehicle after April, you can still apply for a $500 rebate when the program resumes.
And that is wrong.
Prius was available to the general public back in 1997.
Just because that was only in Japan doesn't mean it didn't happen. What you believe was thanks for the local media, who doesn't take the global market into account. In other words, that use of "widely" applies only to a limited scope not the big picture.
JOHN
It's third in it's home market and barely a blip in other markets. Seeming to be first here, and the leader, is critical to keeping its position as the 'greenest' automaker ( meaning fewest trucks ) in the US.
That the vehicles don't stay in the public eye very long is another question... but they were first. I do admit that it's a nit picking difference because they do make excellent products throughout the product line. But just as Toyota has, rightfully?, taken some heat for promoting hybrids and selling an increasing volume of trucks/SUV's at the same time, Honda IMO has a tendency to gather headlines and then fade away somewhat. It's all just business in either case so none of it is wrong but a healthy case of skepticism is good in looking at everything.
John, tell the truth. It doesn't matter how the electricity gets to the motor. If the Prius won't allow the engine to start with under 20% traction battery, how do you suppose a non-running ICE will supply the electric motor with energy? (Hint: It won't.)
"That is just plain wrong. "Assist" hybrids (IMA) only have 1 motor. No wonder there are so many misunderstandings here. That fundamental difference has a profound effect on the operation of the propulsion system."
OK, here is my math:
Motor 1: Internal Combustion engine. Also referred to as a "motor".
Motor 2: Electric motor.
That makes two motors in the IMA system.
TagMan
I agree wholeheartedly.
I totally, completely agree... which why I had been fighting Honda until recently, since most of their hybrids didn't reduce smog-related emissions at all. (They were only ULEV, just like that non-hybrids. Now they are SULEV or better.)
And if people understand that the "assist" hybrid doesn't do as well as the "full" design in stop & slow traffic, then that's perfectly fine. Knowing how stuff like that is actually accomplished definitely isn't necessary.
People just need to be aware of their needs, like A/C use. The "full" hybrids can more accomodating to that too, since their is a more ample amount of electricity available due to the persistent charging verses the passive from "assist", allowing them to offer greater electric A/C... which is more efficient than running the gas engine for the sake of cooling alone.
JOHN
A reasonably priced hybrid Fit may cannibalize the success of the hybrid Civic.
As you mentioned MPG seems to be the main attraction for most hybrid buyers and a hybrid Fit with the mileage of a Insight will be the Holy Grail for Honda.
Anyways until the Fit arrives we can continue to expect the ongoing success of Civic hybrid sales:
Honda sold 1,780 Civic Hybrids in the U.S. last month, a 31.6% increse compared with prior-year. Calendar year-to-date, the vehicle is running 96.1% ahead of year-ago, with 4,945 units sold.
In contrast, Prius sales slipped 7.5% last month. However, through February, sales of the Prius are 12.3% ahead of like-2005, to 14,201 units.
With Civic models in such short supply, Mendel says Honda is exploring the issue of capacity utilization
link title
>
> Motor 1: Internal Combustion engine.
> Also referred to as a "motor".
>
> Motor 2: Electric motor.
>
> That makes two motors in the IMA system.
Vague terminology is never a good choice.
Calling the gas engine an "engine" and calling the electric motor a "motor" is the only way ensure misunderstanding do not occur.
In other words, once again I have to point out that the systems are NOT THE SAME. Using whatever math you choose will point that out. With the example above, Honda has 2 and Toyota has 3. And they most definitely operate differently because of that.
JOHN
Probably to a point that is true. I think that it is quite typical for there to be gray areas between different model lines that most manufacturers offer. Some buyers move up and down the tiers a bit.
The Civic and Fit, however are quite different animals. The current Civic is about the size of the original Accord. And the Civic hybrid comes loaded with a long list of standard features. Adding navigation and XM satellite to the standard climate control and that long feature list will keep the Civic much more car than the Fit will ever be.
I don't think navigation will even be an option on the Fit, and certainly it will not be as richly equipped. It will, however, be well-equipped enough to be quite a bargain. The Fit's engine will be smaller than the Civic's as well. In fact the entire car will be smaller. It will be a 5-door, as opposed to a sedan or coupe. Enough major differences to prevent too much cross-over shopping.
So, I agree there will be some cannibalizing, but not enough to be any concern for Honda. The Fit will be a hit! And the Civic, which is quite deserving of the MT Car-of-the-Year award, will continue to sell very well, IMO.
Honda is definately poised to kick some --- .
TagMan
What a misleading bogus claim. Didn't reduce smog related emissions at all. Give us break. The difference between ULEV & SULEV is approximately one pound of pollutants over the life (150K miles) of the vehicle.
If perfection is your forte' why don't you make it clear that the Prius is not rated excellent in crash safety as is the Honda Civic Hybrid. The Prius is NOT as safe as the Civic or the other competitor the Jetta. Don't be using EU tests to convince us. That is a different car in several areas including safety.
For that to be true, they'd have to be identical. But they clearly are not.
As for your own misleading comment, take whatever arbitrary value you deem insignificant then multiple it by 60,000,000 ...because that is how many new vehicles are put on the road each year. The result is very significant.
JOHN
...and you know this from which source?