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Hybrids in the News
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But I find myself anxiouly awaiting a test-driveable hybrid MR2 as the first hybrid I might actually buy.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Of course, the woman they quoted in there was still getting around 45 consistently, which has to be at least 5-10 mpg more than she would get in the next-best gas-only car out there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Another spot on article.
quote-By selling small volumes of $40K HEVs at half price, Toyota and Honda have reaped huge PR benefits while concealing the actual cost of hybrid technology from customers and, more importantly, from technologically ignorant media and environmental advocates. But how long will they continue heavy subsidies as they drive HEV content, capabilities, and volumes upward?-
Sell the hybrids for their real cost and let's see how many people buy them.
quote- Toyota's intent to make and lead a viable business in HEVs seems more realizable. But it will not succeed until the capability and desirability - not just the efficiency - of HEVs can overcome their weight, packaging, complexity, and ultra-high cost disadvantages.-end
To summarize, ultra-high cost disadvantages explains the hybrid problem.
So are hybrids all hype? Is Toyota artifically limiting thier Prius production to mitigate loss ?
Have you every seen grocery stores advertise a loss leader with the disclaimer "quantities may be limited". The reseon fro loss leaders is to get you to the store .. Thanks for coming , we know your time is important ..we are sorry we don't have any Priuses avaialble .. they are so popular that it will take 8-12 months to get you one ... BUT WE HAVE ALL of THESE other Toyotas avaialbe that we can sell you today.
I can't believe that Toyota is resorting to the old "Bait and Switch" tatic to see cars.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.s - My car buying is temporarily on hold after we bought some property this weekend with the (163,000 acre) Sam Houston National Forrest as out backyard. Oh Well! more time to let the hybrid, diesel ,fule cell, solar, elevtric , ICE issues resolve themself
"...batteries, motors, controllers, and wiring are heavy."
True but Planetary full hybrids also remove unnecessary parts such as alternator, starter, transmission, flywheel, etc... In the end, full hybrids seem to add only about extra 5% of the curb weight.
"Another is packaging - all that extra componentry takes up valuable space."
I didn't realize how short Prius' hood was until I open up and saw it in person. Prius drivetrain packaging under the hood is significantly smaller than my Celica. I thought my compact hatchback is pretty small already. HSD packaging is amazingly small!
"Another is the daunting development challenge of seamlessly blending ICE and electric torque, friction and regenerative braking, engine stops and starts, electric power steering and HVAC."
Toyota did a wonderful job blending ICE and electric power with the PSD. Planetary setup is probably the most simple and smooth design.
"By contrast, the '04 is a unique, high-content car on a dedicated platform,..."
Not true! 04 Prius shares the same platform with Toyota Allion mid-size sedan. For more info: usbseawolf2000 "Toyota Allion Vs. Prius" Jun 18, 2004 10:01pm
"Toyota's intent to make and lead a viable business in HEVs seems more realizable. But it will not succeed until the capability and desirability - not just the efficiency - of HEVs can overcome their weight, packaging, complexity, and ultra-high cost disadvantages."
Weight: Prius weights between Corolla and Camry. Prius is manufactured with traditional steel unibody frame unlike Insight all aluminum body.
Packaging: Smaller than traditional car because HSD is mechically simpler.
Complexity: In software, codes can be reuse. In fact, Toyota even sold it's codes to Ford and Nissan.
Ulta-high cost: Toyota does everything in-house, even combining interter and aux unit into one. Toyota is in for longterm profit and by judging from their track record, they know what they are doing.
Dennis
I am still waiting for proof of the claim that hybrids like the Prius, HCH, and Insight cost $40k to build today.
He averaged 30 MPG according to his display, for the week he had it. Ford said it should average 32-33 in combined driving.
The V-6 ICE Escape gets 19/25 and costs $3300-3400 less. RAV4 gets 24/30. Ford is building only 20k for the year, compared to the 160k Escapes they typically sell.
Reporter thinks Ford and Lexus will have to change the marketing somewhat to highlight the V6 performance and (better than) V4 fuel efficiency.
But if Ford doesn't sell out the 20k hybrids, maybe 5 years from now, the hybrids won't be as common as many expect. Because the Ford person claims the price difference doesn't make up for the higher costs to make the hybrids.
That is just plain wrong. I never said "2004" even once. The profit comments were always about the classic model, since we had plenty of published articles supporting that it had in fact been achieved.
And why are you in total denial that Toyota has announced double the production for 2005 than in 2004?
Also, why are you completely ignoring the fact that Toyota will in fact reach it's long-standing goal of 300,000 systems per year worldwide by the end of 2005?
JOHN
Even the author is skeptical.
That's a pretty standard anti-hybrid comment.
"weight" is totally meaningless, since it is not quantified at all. In fact, it is so vague you are easily lead to believe that hybrids are significantly heavier. The 4-cylinder Camry, which only a little bigger inside, is actually 252 pounds more.
"valuable space" does the same. You are left totally clueless to what that actually means. The battery-pack is the only component that consumes interior space, and it is just the size of six loaves of bread.
"daunting development challenge" is clearly misleading, since the goal is already achieved. By the end of the 2004 model year, there will be 250,000 Prius on roads worldwide. Obviously, development is complete. In fact, initial rollout is too.
JOHN
So your "is" reference means little to nothing.
JOHN
Your concerns are not shared.
Can't handle it, eh?
LONG-TERM discussions make the plans for HSD technology very, very appealing from a business perspective. And the consumer perspective will soon realize the variety of power configurations offer lots of potential for future vehicles & models. But you don't want people to discover that.
Discussing the 2004 Prius is totally pointless, since production for it ends in just a few days.
LONG-TERM discussions are quite constructive. People are very interested in what the future holds, to help with a purchase decision. So what are you going to do, impede that information exchange?
JOHN
Toyota is in business to make money and this generation Prius will be profitable sooner than the last generation Prius. Economies of scale, especially with the unanticipated volume of the new Prius, will make that happen even earlier than initially projected.
Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?
Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- =20040623
Dennis
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http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_10_183/ai- _109505549
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/oil/1312.html
Personally, I would trust the executives and financial officers of Toyota to know how much money they are making (or losing) on a vehicle than I would some writer who provides no substantiation for his claims.
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national/?srv=parser&act=display&- amp;tf=/features/mvp/toyota/prius/prius_overview.tmpl
- 145 DIN hp from the electrically-boosted 1.5-litre petrol engine
- Accelerating to 100 km/h in 8.7 seconds
- Fuel economy at normal speeds virtually unaffected by performance potential(because the effects of a more powerful petrol engine are counteracted by efficiency gains from the electric circuit and the overall weight reduction.)
http://www.clean-auto.com/article.php3?id_article=2633
Dennis
In other words, Toyota has capital to invest into LONG-TERM projects. GM & Ford are simply struggling to survive.
JOHN
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040628/lam035_1.html
Toyota is not building the Prius in the US.
All along I have been saying thing. HSD will later be available in the other popular vehicles too.
JOHN
Also, who is to say that the full size trucks and Tacomas in the future won't offer hybrid powertrains?
--The feds only kicked in 5 million to subsidize the purchase (compare this with the revenue lost by giving gas-suckin', planet-killin', OPEC supportin' Hummer buyers their outrageous tax break). Not only that, but the buses are expected to last longer, kick out up to 90% less pollutants, drive quieter, and oh yes, save around 750,000 gallons of gas per year! Yes, you're right about one thing --it certainly does add up!!
If the government set out a mandate that at least 2 days out of every 7 you must wear a uniform that is specific to their standards and is made out of a fabric that is not very well known, wouldn't you expect the government to pay for at least part of that uniform (if not all of it)?
Instead, goals should clearly be defined. That way use of government money can be much better accounted for and accepted.
Just look at the "hydrogen" mess. Money is being provided without any requirement to actually deliver anything specific and within any specific timeframe either. What the heck is the benefit of hydrogen? Overall it is dirtier, less efficient, and quite a bit more expensive.
JOHN
Do you really think Prius and Camry cost same amount to manufacture?
There's the source of your confusion.
Prius is *LESS* than a traditional automatic, not more.
The HSD engineering is elegantly simple. But it is so different that you perceived it to mean more complex, when really it isn't. Compared the designs. You'll end up finding Camry propulsions components to be much more intricate than you originally thought.
JOHN
Oh well, at least the Japanese are looking and developing viable alternatives now.
The quest for something better is actually what introduced me to Prius. The discovery of that entirely new approach to managing power transfer really made an impression. Finding out that it also delivered improved efficiency & emissions sealed the deal.
But trying to sell people on improved engineering or emissions is a daunting task, to the point of almost being futile.
The desire for improved MPG is a different story though. The draw to that is quite compelling. That is what makes Prius such a good advertising device for HSD. It will lure people into researching the technology. Then when they find out the vehicle of their choice will later offer the HSD option, they're hooked. That sale will be pretty easy once the market is finally established.
JOHN
If the car purchaser themselves pays for the higher polluting vehicles (maybe smaller taxes and registration fees for hybrids???) then they will not purchase them. In turn the manufacturers will stop producing them. Not everything must come from from "sticking it to those terrible big businesses". And not everything we do has to be governed by what our Federal Government tells us is ok.
Kerry is strongly behind hybrids. He understands how a full hybrid can very easily be adapted to use a fuel-cell instead of an engine.
Did you know the HSD design already supports an electric-only mode? In fact, all countries (except the US) get that option already. It is scaled of course, to balance with the size of battery available currently. But since a fuel-cell is nothing but an electricity source anyway, it is a perfect component for HSD to take advantage of.
JOHN
That said, I'm having some interesting conversations with dealers here in the Southeast. Most of the dealers have totally closed their lists because they just have no clue when, how many, and how equipped Prius they'll get. They seem totally bummed.
I did get an offer to be 6th on the list for an October or November delivery (if they get what I want) in Birmingham, AL. I might just take it. One thing I don't know if I'll want to do is take something that not exactly what I want. I usually order my vehicles to my exact specifications. Today is a downer for me, especially because I'll be taking my rental Prius back in a few hours :-(
John Kerry, Senate bill #865, June 10, 2003, voted in favor of requiring that the hydrogen commercialization plan of the Department of Energy include a description of activities to support certain hydrogen technology deployment goals. This vote would pass an amendment that would call for the Department of Energy to set targets and timelines to maintain the production of 100,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010, and 2.5 million vehicles annually by 2020. It also would call for the department to set targets for the sale of hydrogen at fueling stations.
John Kerry, in his endorsement of the Strategic Energy Initiative, vowed that tax incentives would be given to manufacturers producing fuel-efficient vehicles that utilize domestic biofuels and clean-burning fuel cell technology, as well as to investors of such technology.
They both are also behind hybrid vehicles. Bush's support is evident in his February, 2003 proposal for a tax credit for Hybrid vehicles in 2004. It is also evident in his statement during his February, 2002, energy efficiency speech - "more and more hybrid cars will be available in the marketplace next year. And this is good news. It's good news for our environment, and it's good news for American consumers who are not only worried about the environment, but understand the ramifications of dependency on foreign sources of crude oil."
Let's face it, there really are very few people out there who are "against" alternative fuels, save maybe OPEC.