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Hybrids in the News

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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I will be convinced when I see a hybrid vehicle that is exactly the same as an ICE vehicle in every aspect except the powertrain.

    '07 Camry HSD vs Camry 4c ICE vs Camry V6 ICE. It will be announced next month and is due out in July.

    Be careful about pricing. I'm certain that Toyota will not announce it's costs but I do expect the HSD Camry to be about the same price as a V6 ICE Camry. It's more marketing at the best price possible than cost. If, to pick a number, it costs them $2000 to make the HSD over the 4c but it gets the same performance and better fuel economy than the V6 ICE it will be in the same range as the V6 at at say $3000 price differential over the 4c ICE.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You are absolutely correct buying a Prius to save money is wrong.

    It's been proven many times here and in the press. One buys a Prius because they like the vehicle. Others dont buy it because it doesnt appleal to them. This is as it should be. That being said:

    In the 200000 miles I will drive in the next 4 yrs-
    I will spend just under $9000 in gas in the Prius; whereas
    I would have spent just under $13000 in gas in a new 4c ICE Camry - similar features as the Prius.

    There was only a $2000 difference in price. In my particular case there is a saving. This disregards any tax benefits also.

    YMMV, mine certainly does. So in addition to the environmental benefits there is an economic advantage.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Already posted previously. I provided a link. Let's not clutter the board with duplications.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Amazing how everyone thinks people buy hybrids to save money. Anyone who buys a hybrid and thinks they are going to save money is sadly mistaken. The reason I like the Prius in particular is all the nice features it has for the price. It also gets twice the gas mileage my current vehicle is getting. Gotta love it!!! Oh... I'd also consider the HAH, but I like the coupe version of the Honda Accord. Much nicer looking.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    As far as "saving money with Hybrids" -

    I know I'm going to have a car payment every month, probably forever, because I'm the kind of person who likes to drive a nice, newer model car with no flaws and creature comforts which I feel I have earned due to a reasonable level of professional success.

    So my car payment is there anyway. Whether it's $600 or $400, it's there. It's a deficit to the monthly budget, regardless of what type of car I have.

    That being said, where I do LOVE to see the savings is the at the gas pump. I have gone at least 30 days between fillups for the past two fillups, and will probably make it again this tank. That leaves me with a monthly fuel bill of around $32 for the last almost 90 days.

    There's no way to put a price on that kind of satisfaction, mi amigos...... :shades:

    PS
    In addition, my newfound "hypermiling skills" will benefit me for my entire life, regardless of what hybrid I own next time. And it's fun too..... :shades:
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "In any case, I did not buy the HAH for mileage alone or to save the earth. I wanted a new gadget, plus improved mileage, plus acceleration. It does accelerate fantastic."

    Then it sounds like you got the right car for you. May you enjoy many years/miles with your HAH. :shades:
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    jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    I am glad you like your hybrid and I am not going to tell people what they should like and don't like but I beleive most of the features offered on hybrids are offered on other vehicles.
    Your financial analysis also assumes the hybrid has the same reliability as a conventional engine and the repair costs are the same or not large enough to offset the fuel savings.
    Generally you do have to drive a hybrid approximately 180,000-200,000 miles or more because they usually have a premium of $3,000 to $8,000 over similarly equipped vehicles.
    And it sounds like you may end up driving the Prius enough for you to be the exception rather than the rule and will save money with the Prius. (That is if it doesn't break down.)
    Also the Camry has better ride quality and performance than the Prius so you will have to lug those 200,000 miles in an less comfortable ride.
    And any environmental benefit assumes that the extra production costs don't cause extra pollution to offset the fuel savings.
    Personnally, I also think it would do more for the environment if even half of the additional money that would have spent on a hybrid was donated to land conservation.
    Just think of how much forestland could have been preserved if everybody who bought a hybrid instead purchased a conventional car and donated $1,500 to $4,000 to land conservency.
    Not only would you get cleaner air and water but you would have nice places to hike, bike and fish too!
    And you would have a better ride and a bigger tax deduction to boot.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's why there are different vehicles for differing tastes. The Prius for those driving BIG miles each year has economic benefit as well as environmental benefits.

    Reliability. It's a Toyota. I've driven Camry's since 1990 with nary a hitch. I have every expectation that this is just as reliable. Why would they suddenly put an unreliable vehicle to market? That's a non-issue for me. After 9 Toyota's in the famly in 15 yrs and with the Prius having been on the road for 9 years now it's of no concern.

    Comfort. The Prius rides better than any of the four Camrys I've had, seating position, visibility, etc and the Prius has better acceleration than any of the other 4c I've had ( which were all acceptable BTW ). This is a step up.

    Features. It has all the safety features so it's a huge step up in that regard.

    Not a bad idea of also contributing to land conservancy. May do both and get two deductions.
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm also curious to know if the HAH and normal V6 Accord have the same final drive ratio or does the HAH have a slightly taller gear for better highway mileage?

    Actually, the non-hybrid Accord V6 is geared slightly taller than HAH (overall final gear drive ratio is 2.30:1 compared to 2.32:1 for HAH).

    Besides, VCM equipped Odyssey has a shorter top gear drive ratio too (compared to non-VCM version).
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    My budget for a car is fairly flexible. I've owned cars that had MSRPs of close to 50k. I have decided to buy the Prius because I like the car and love the technology. No one buy a car to save money. If that were the case, I'd be hitching to work. What car do you drive??
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    You are an absolute WEALTH of knowledge of all things Honda ;)

    Now I'm trying to figure out what the heck was the point in using a 2.30:1 ratio in the non-hybrid V6 vs. 2.32:1 in the HAH. I mean, a difference of .02:1?? Was it really worth it for Honda to make such a miniscule change in their final drive?:confuse:

    Yeah, I was aware the VCM Ody's had a slightly shorter final drive ratio compared to the non-VCM. I think the shorter gear enables the engine to deliver enough torque to the drive wheels when operating on 3-cylinders at highway speed (shorter gear keeps the engine in it's economical 'sweet spot' so to speak).
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    mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    jtbenz wrote:
    "Generally you do have to drive a hybrid approximately 180,000-200,000 miles or more because they usually have a premium of $3,000 to $8,000 over similarly equipped vehicles"

    What are you basing these on?
    My HCH cost below $1K more for a comparable Civic EX and the added cost premium was erased within the first year.
    My fully loaded HCH CVT $18,500
    A fully loaded Civic EX AT $17,200
    Both were out-the-door price.
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Thank you! :shades:

    Regarding gearing differences between HAH and regular Accord V6, none of the ratios is shared between the two automatics, starting with the axle ratio itself.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I'm kind of confused myself. Looking forward to getting my $3k tax credit on next year's taxes. Gotta love it!!!
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    jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    Actually I got it from the AP story but I did some checking on my own
    Honda Civic Hybrid (base) $21,850 Honda Civic sedan $14,500; fully loaded Civic Hybrid $26,571, Civic sedan $23,924.
    This is from Honda's website.
    According to the AP story, city officials said they save about $500 per year on fuel per hybrid, and with at least a $3,000 premium it will take a minimum of six years to pay for itself. Much longer for the SUV hybrids, which are more expensive.
    But this doesn't include interest. If you financed the extra $3,000 it would take even longer for it to pay off. Even if you paid cash you are losing the interest income you could have made with the money if you didn't use it on the car.
    Assuming a 6 percent interest rate $3,000 turns into about $4,200 after six years so that is another 2-3 additional years for the hybrid to pay for itself for a grand total of 8-9 years of ownership, assuming the repair costs between hybrids and conventional engines are the same.
    After looking at the calculations you can see why these cities don't believe the hybrids will ever pay for themselves in turms of fuel savings.
    And these city officials are the ones who wanted to buy these cars. They are not saying they regret it, its just not going to save the taxpayers any money because the government decided to buy hybrids.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually I got it from the AP story but I did some checking on my own
    Honda Civic Hybrid (base) $21,850 Honda Civic sedan $14,500; fully loaded Civic Hybrid $26,571, Civic sedan $23,924.

    AP story by the noted economist......?

    Civic Sedan for $23924!!! are they NUTZ???

    'Lets go the videotape' here at Edmunds and see what they come up with.
    Civic EX w/Navi $20560
    HCH w/ Navi $23350

    Misconception No1.
    People do not buy hybrids to save money! To save money buy a 2 y.o. Certified Used Vehicle. Now that saves money.

    Or buy a more basic version of the new Civic. That saves money.

    It's the same reason that someone buys a base model and another goes with the EX w/Navi. Because they want to.

    The Press and the doubters are trying to find a reason why hybrids should not be purchased. There is no reason. If someone want to buy one they will.
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    jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    You are making an absurd argument. There certainly can be rational reasons for buying a car. And many people on this forum seem to believe that you can save a lot of money by buying a hybrid. But when somebody points out this isn't true most of the time, people freak out and refuse to accept the truth.
    People who say they bought it because they like the technology. Fine but when the new technolgy doesn't accomplish anything tangible, no increase in performance and gas savings to justify higher price, what exactly do you like about it? An abstract idea?
    If you buy a prius because you like the way it looks thats fine too, just as long as you are truthful about it and don't try to pretend this technology is some great breakthrough and the rest of us are barbarians for not owning one.
    And for those of you who think they can save the environment by buying a hybrid, that $3-$8,000 would do a lot more if it was spent on environmental causes such as land conservation or environmental cleanup.
    I may be crazy, but I try to weigh my options carefully and make sure what I buy justifies the cost.
    Even though buying a car does rely somewhat on its emotional appeal, there are still rational justifications for the purchase, such as comfort performance, price, cost of ownership etc.
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    mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    You keep saying hybrids cost $3-8K more than a regular car.
    Let's take a similarly loaded Civic EX for example:
    http://automobiles.honda.com/landing.asp

    EX AT No NAV
    Front Spoiler
    Rear Spoiler
    Rear wing spoiler
    Side Spoiler
    $21,396
    HCH with no options
    22,400
    $1,004 difference.
    Where is your $3-8K?

    If you want the fastest Accord buy the hybrid.
    If you want a Civic that averages around 10-12MPG over it's counterpart get the hybrid.
    If you want a vehicle with vastly more economy capability get the hybrid.

    I'll agree there isn't much savings with these cars in a government fleet. Simply because fleet drivers with unlimited free gasoline think nothing of economy.
    I know...I was one.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    And many people on this forum seem to believe that you can save a lot of money by buying a hybrid. But when somebody points out this isn't true most of the time, people freak out and refuse to accept the truth.

    Your highlighted statement is a common misconception of people new to the idea of hybrids further perpetuated by the press in various comparo's. A wonder drug? A magic formula like cold fusion? Nope, it's only an auto.

    Actually in this forum and in the Prius 2004+ forum I have consistently said that there is NO reason to buy a Prius if you are interested in saving money. NONE. Many times I've stated that the press and others want to put this square peg into a round hole. You're saving fuel so you should be able to save enough money to pay for the vehicle, right?

    NO. To be clear. Do not buy a Prius in order to save money. Buy it because you like it. It's that simple just like any other vehicle.

    I've sold nearly a hundred of them since they came out and I just bought one myself. I never have told anyone that they will save $x if they trade into a Prius .... unless they are coming out of an Expedition or Sequoia or the like. Then there is potentially massive savings for some people.

    My Prius cost $21850 which is $1500 over what a Camry with the same features would have cost. It handles better than the last 4 Camry's I've had and has many more safety features. It was a bargain.

    Others wouldnt be caught dead in either a Camry or a Prius since they both handle like slugs vis-a-vis a Beemer or Lexus. Others wouldnt be caught dead in a Camry or Prius because paying over $20K for a depreciating assest is like setting money on fire. All three positons are correct!

    I see what you are saying about making a rational judgement for example in comparing features, utilization, comfort, etc. and I agree wholeheartedly. Ignore the FE for a moment. It has nothing to do with the reason to buy a Prius. If you like the Prius and what it has to offer you'll buy it. If the handling, ride, features, etc don't appeal to you you wont buy it.

    OK now the Prius gets a little better FE than the ICE Civic/Corolla which is a little better than the CamCord/Sonata which is a little better than an SUV. That's all you can say about it.
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    bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    First forget the navigation as it is a rare Civic option. Grand Honda in Chicago is advertising 2006 EX Auto Civics for 250 under invoice or $17750. The 2006 Hybrid appears to still be selling for sticker or higher - $22400. The real world difference right now is $4650. $3-8k- yes right in that range.

    Let me know when I can get that Civic Hybrid w/o Nav for 250 under invoice or $20,300. I may even get one at that price. Then the difference would be "only" $2550.
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    bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    The HCH does not have the 16" wheels, 140hp, as large a trunk, rear armrest, moonroof, etc. The two vehicles are equipped differently, but if you add cost to one you also must add for the other. All things considered they are equipped relatively equally excluding the engine configuration.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've sold nearly a hundred of them since they came out and I just bought one myself. I never have told anyone that they will save $x if they trade into a Prius

    I'm guessing you have many return customers. Being honest and letting the hybrids sell on their merits is a good way to make happy customers. There are pros and cons to any car you buy. That includes all the hybrids. If I had a long commute, I would seriously look at a hybrid as one option. I would also look for a sales person such as yourself. I have walked out on many a BS artist.
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    jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    Why have all the spoilers? You added about $2,000 worth in spoilers. LOL. The hybrid doesn't come with them. Without those spoilers there is a $3,000 difference. I hope you made an honest mistake and weren't trying to fool us. LOL
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    You can look at this in many different ways. If the Prius didn't exist, I may have bought a loaded A4 for over 40 grand. In that case I'm saving 15 grand... OOOHHHH AHHHHH. Bottom line is that there is still high demand for hybrids (Prius in particular). With ALL the negative press (recalls, mileage claims etc) there doesn't seem to be any consumer resistance in sight. There will always be people (such as those participating here) that just don't get it. People buy with emotion and don't fully analyze their decisions. That will never change. I personally have not changed my opinion because I am a well informed consumer. If we all want to save money, NONE of us would ever buy a new car. BIGGEST waste of money. Buy a three year old car with 36,000 miles and you'll save HALF. Conversely, don't buy that Honda Accord, buy the Hyunda Elantra and save 5 grand.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Buy a three year old car with 36,000 miles and you'll save HALF. Conversely, don't buy that Honda Accord, buy the Hyunda Elantra and save 5 grand.

    Precisely. Before the Prius last month the last 6 Toyota's my children and I bought were Used at $5-10K off original MSRP. They will last 15 yrs anyway so if they are 3-4 yrs old they still have all the life we need. Plus they have all sold/traded for atleast $3K when we were done. Except my son's '98 turbo Supra which he keeps taking apart and rebuilding.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103778

    This shocks me. Toyota, the 800 pound gorilla, cannot get someone to supply them adequately. That's is incredible and amazing and ridiculous.

    Supply of Toyota's Prius to remain thin; automaker battling hybrid component shortage
    JAMES B. TREECE | Automotive News
    Posted Date: 12/13/05

    The hot-selling Toyota Prius, which established Toyota Motor Corp. as the hybrid leader, will continue in short supply in 2006.

    Toyota CEO Katsuaki Watanabe promises to deliver more hybrids to North America next year. But virtually all of the increase will come in the form of hybrid Camrys.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Oh my....heavens to Betsy!!!! This is an outrageous LIE!!! Toyota is deliberately withholding units to keep prices up!!! SCANDAL!!!! Alert the authorities!!!!! Call Dan Rather now!!!! LOL :P
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    dpatdpat Member Posts: 87
    Haven't seen this posted yet.

    story

    For all the bad press the Big 3 (especially GM) get for being "late to the game" on hybrids, this technology sounds pretty impressive. There's something to be said for working to improve fuel economy on vehicles that use the most fuel first, rather than starting with cars that get good gas mileage to begin with.
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    That actually doesn’t make much sense to me. Why does Toyota keep launching new hybrid vehicles if they keep whining about short supply for their original model?
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That actually doesn’t make much sense to me. Why does Toyota keep launching new hybrid vehicles if they keep whining about short supply for their original model?

    IMO there is a bigger strategy going on here. We see only what is being 'offered' to the public. Big companies like Toyota and GM dont get surprised. There is also a disclosure requirement for public companies to the shareholders.
    "Hey, how come the Prius isnt growing like it was in the first two years?" Reply.. "See our press release of 12-12-05"

    What if the Prius isnt the main player in all of this... and never was intended to be? What does the name 'Prius' mean?
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113452451241821912.html?mod=todays_us_opinion

    Above is a good article from Wall Street Journal.

    It addresses the following justifications for purchasing a hybrid:

    1)But doesn't saving oil have benefits beyond the dollars saved -- for instance, postponing the doom of civilization?

    No: If Prius owners consume less, there's less demand, prices will be lower and somebody else will step up to consume more than they would at the otherwise higher price. That's the price mechanism at work. Oil is a fantastically useful commodity. Humans can be relied upon to consume all the oil they'd be willing to consume at a given price.

    2)But wouldn't using less oil make us less dependent on Mideast imports?

    Just the opposite: In the nature of things, the cheapest oil is consumed first, and Mideast oil is the cheapest. Drive a Hummer if you want to reduce America's reliance on Arab oil. Indeed, if we could all just pull together and drive gasoline prices high enough, we'd be able to satisfy all our fuel needs next door from Canadian oil sands.
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    ...this is news???
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    heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Tres interessant, Dewey.

    So I read this *news* to mean that there really are Zero justifications for spending the extra money on a Prius and in fact the only reasons to buy it are:

    1) You like the way it looks and performs. (Well, people bought Aztecs and Yugos didn't they?)

    2) You are seeking a certain 'image' to impress people.

    3) You have little concept of the value of money.

    Pick one.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Bottomline: After reading a lot of posts here I have concluded that buying a hybrid today is pointless.

    Every justification for a hybrid rings somewhat hollow, especially when you can buy a wonderful car called a Jetta TDI at a nearby VW dealership.
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    xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Dewey:

    Bottomline: After reading a lot of posts here I have concluded that buying a hybrid today is pointless.

    Every justification for a hybrid rings somewhat hollow, especially when you can buy a wonderful car called a Jetta TDI at a nearby VW dealership.

    The Jetta TDI similarly equipped costs much more then an 06 HCH-II, receives far less FE then an 06 HCH-II, emits much greater NOx and PM as the 06 HCH-II, and its fuel is much more expensive then the HCH-II other then home brew B100 in the summer months. Why would you choose to own an 06 Jetta TDI over an 06 HCH-II as it does not make much sense to me? The Prius II when similarly equipped costs about the same but again, its FE is so far beyond that of a Jetta TDI and emissions so much lower that the TDI has a very tough time to compete against it as well?

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    As I see it, the article suggests one way to stay away from reliance on "cheap oil".... burn as much as you can. :surprise:
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Xcel.. you forgot the most important part. VW reliability SUCKS big time!!! Dealers in the states are getting PREMIUMS so there goes the savings. If I were buying a hybrid, I would NOT even consider the TDI as an alternative. Too much NVH, VW dealer networks is horrible, tight rear seat, unreliable electronics..and the list goes on. I'd either get the Accord hybrid or the Prius.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    So I read this *news* to mean that there really are Zero justifications for spending the extra money on a Prius and in fact the only reasons to buy it are:

    1) You like the way it looks and performs. (Well, people bought Aztecs and Yugos didn't they?)

    2) You are seeking a certain 'image' to impress people.

    3) You have little concept of the value of money.

    Pick one.

    OK

    4) The cost to buy/own my new Prius was less than a similary equipped 4c Camry LE.

    BTW you were right to put the WSJ synopsis in quotes "news". It was neither new nor fact based reporting. It was the writer's personal opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

    Refer to my post above #4108.

    There is no financial justification for buying or not buying a Prius. It appeals to you or it doesnt.

    Buying a Prius in order to save money is a false construct created by the press and doubters. 'Why would anyone buy a Prius (/hybrid)?' You buy it because it appeals to you like some like VW's and others like Lexus'.

    The press and doubter are trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

    You compare it to a TDI or Corolla
    I compare it to a Passat or Camry

    Both are wrong. It is what it is and 100K+ buyers a year like it as it is.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Unless you are shopping for the ABSOLUTE CHEAPEST car you can buy, or you are buying a collector car, there is NEVER a good financial justification for buying ANY car.

    They all (collector cars excepted) depreciate over time. Everyone loses money on any car they buy for commuting.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The Jetta TDI similarly equipped costs much more then an 06 HCH-II, receives far less FE then an 06 HCH-II, emits much greater NOx and PM as the 06 HCH-II,

    True, in fact in Canada the new HCH is cheaper than the VW Jetta TDI. I would pick a HCH myself over the Jetta TDI!

    Based on pricing I would pick a HCH over a Prius.

    And last but not least based on pricing I would pick a simple plain vanilla Honda Civic over the HCH-II. I just dont see the hybrid premium as justifiable.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As I see it, the article suggests one way to stay away from reliance on "cheap oil".... burn as much as you can

    The author's point is that if an increase in hybrid vehicles cause oil prices to drop then the short term but not the long term!

    Why?

    Because lower oil prices in the long term will merely tempt people to buy comfortable and fast vehicles that consumes gas like a pig. And that will only gas prices to stay high in the long term.
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    deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Yikes, pardon my last semi-illiterate post. I was in a rush.

    The author's point is that an increase in hybrid sales will cause gas consumption and prices to decrease.Unfortunately in the long term prices will shoot up again.

    Why?

    Because lower oil prices in the long term will merely tempt people to buy gas consuming vehicles again.This shift in demand will cause gas consumption/prices to shoot up again.

    Therefore anybody who buys a hybrid to reduce oil dependence is deluding himself.
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    snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,330
    there is NEVER a good financial justification for buying ANY car.

    Ok to chime in on this, since most people can hold a better job being able to drive to it there is a real good financial justification to buy a car.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If people think that putting more hybrids on the road will cause the price of gas and oil to go down, they are deluding themselves. At best, it will help gas and oil prices go up more slowly.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    4) The cost to buy/own my new Prius was less than a similary equipped 4c Camry LE.
    ...
    There is no financial justification for buying or not buying a Prius. It appeals to you or it doesnt.

    You are losing me here. Didn't you just say that you saved money, up front, by buying the Prius instead of the Camry--which I assume was your #1 alternative? And won't you continue to save money on gas for each mile you drive the Prius instead of the Camry? What am I missing here?
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Good point, it should have been reversed.

    I bought the new Prius because it's better than the last 4 Camry's I've had, '90, '94, '97 '00. That's the #1 reason.. and.. btw.. given the miles I drive ( 180000 in 4 yrs ) it also has a financial benefit. :blush: my bad.

    See my prior post #4108. The Prius cost more than a Camry similarly equipped initially but the overall cost in 180000 miles will be less.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Looks like Toyota can make more money in China with the Prius parts. The US can wait.

    Toyota has begun assembling its Prius hybrid car in China.

    The model will sell for between 288,000 and 302,000 yuan ($35,000-$37,000; £20,000-£21,000).

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4531648.stm
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    falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Smart move!! You really can't beat a Toyota for reliability! I am sure glad you're not a VW salesman! You'd really lack credibility here. VW = :lemon:
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    BMW gas/steam hybrid

    Using an innovative concept, BMW Group Research and Engineering has succeeded in harnessing the biggest and as yet untapped source of energy in the car: Heat. Combining an innovative drive assist with a 1.8 liter BMW four-cylinder engine on the test rig reduced consumption by up to 15 percent while generating nearly 14 additional horsepower. At the same time, up to 15 lb-ft more torque was measured. This increased power and efficiency comes free of charge. The reason is that the energy is derived exclusively from the waste heat present in the exhaust gases and cooling system and doesn’t cost you a single drop of fuel. The research project meets all the conditions espoused by the philosophy of BMW Efficient Dynamics – lower emissions and consumption combined with more dynamic driving and performance.

    http://www.gizmag.co.uk/go/4936/
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    robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The BMW effort is neat, and also something that could be considered as part time on-board electricity generator in hybrids like Civic and Prius. But, here is another area that’s getting some attention lately, and Honda will supposedly showcase an HCCI (Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition) engine in a few months.

    Honda Makes Significant Progress on HCCI Engine for Hybrid Application

    HyView
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