Hybrids in the News

idele

Not only are there Prius taxicabs in Tokyo but the rates are lower
Meter starts at 500 yen (about $4.25) instead of 660 yen (about $5.60) for the usual Toyota Crown cab. That encourages their use. I would be surprised if Prius taxicabs in the USA had reduced rates.

PF_Flyer

The use (abuse) that gets heaped on a taxi will be a test for the vehicles.

gagrice

I think the height you have to lift luggage into the hatch would also be a negative. There were a lot of them in downtown Victoria BC. They seemed to be the main competition for the cycle carriages. Well suited to carry a couple people with little or no luggage.

micheals

Try searching for vancouver prius cab and you can find stories of a person in vancouver who had a classic prius as a cab for almost 200,000 miles until Toyota bought him a 2004 Prius so that they could study the earlier prius.

As far as lifting luggage into the hatch, I'm not sure that it takes any more to lift luggage into the Prius than it takes to lift luggage into standard trunks. People are often very surprised about how much luggage will fit in the Prius. A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I took a couple of friends to the airport, with all of their luggage, including their Christsmas presents for their family (two oversize suitcases, two duffle bags, and a backpack). All of this fit in the hatch area of our 2004 prius, with room enough for me to still see out the back window. When he and his wife came back, he commented on how he was amazed at how much luggage fit in the back.

gagrice

As far as lifting luggage into the hatch

How does the hatch height match up to a regular full size sedan? It looks 8 or more inches higher than a standard trunk. I have never seen one open.

topgun7

Any one know where can I get a list of the tax credit available for hybrid in 06? Thanks.

donzi81

Putting luggage in the Prius hatch is just as easy, if not easier than putting it in a car trunk. I just test drove one over the weekend. Will post my impressions where appropriate.

JBaumgart

There was an article in the Wall Street Journal today about the tax credits. They are not final yet, as the IRS is going to be putting out a list in the first quarter. The article did caution that not everyone will be eligible to get the credit. Amongst those are taxpayers who get caught in the AMT trap (a growing minority) - they will not qualify for any of the credit. There are third party estimates out for those who will qualify. The formula is a bit complicated, but I do remember that the credit on the Prius will be something like $3,100 and the Honda Civic Hybrid will be around $2,150. Remember these are not official yet.

mirth

From carconnection.com:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Mechanics_Tale/Mechanics_Tale_Feel-G- ood_Greenism.S281.A9811.html

gagrice

I like it. Common sense is a GOOD thing.

kdhspyder

Article from carconnect with some valid points and one basic false premise:

It would simply wind up being driven by someone else (probably very happy about the great car he had gotten). And now both her old car and her new car would be polluting the world. HUH?? :surprise:

This one is hard to get a handle on. For this basic premise to be correct '..now both her old car and her new car would be polluting the world.' the buyer of this lady's Honda would have to drive two vehicles at the same time??? :surprise:

The more likely scenario is that the buyer of the lady's Honda is retiring a less efficient vehicle because the price of fuel has made commuting more expensive and his V8 truck is killing him at the pump. Or the Honda might be intended as a first vehicle for a first time driver. But if the first time driver is going to get a vehicle anyway why not a well performing relatively low polluting vehicle rather than a gas guzzler.

I admit it could be that the new buyer is a walker or bike-rider so giving this non-polluter a vehicle might increase the pollution in the world.

The heart of this article is specious. My 2000 Camry which ran perfectly and got 33 mpg HWY replaced a 90 Astro van a college student was driving. My Prius effectively replaced the van. Now that is worth doing.

mirth

...maybe her old Accord would be bought by a high school/college student, who never had a car before. In that case it would be true that both her old and new cars would be polluting the world. Of course, neither would be polluting it very much.

PF_Flyer

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10576077/

Hybrids alter economics for carmakers, owners
Technology impacts auto manufacturing, selling, owning and repairing

Although U.S. sales of hybrid vehicles roughly doubled in 2005, they still make up a tiny fraction of new car sales. From less than 10,000 sold in 2000, hybrid sales are estimated to have broken 200,000 in 2005, according to hybrids.com, but that is only about 1 percent of the roughly 17 million cars and light trucks sold overall.

One big reason, say analysts, is the added cost of a hybrid compared to a conventional gasoline-powered vehicle. That premium varies but can run as much as $7,000. So far, hybrid buyers tend to come from two groups: “early adopters” looking for the latest technology and environmentalists, who may care more about saving the planet than saving money.

kdhspyder

Yep agreed. That's what I meant by a first time driver. If so it's better than probably 60% of the other vehicles out there.

kdhspyder

Both points are accurate concerning the buyers of the hybrid vehicles at present, although $7000 is steep but the quote does say '..as much as..' There is rarely any personal economic reason to purchase a hybrid over any similar vehicle. I am an exception but it is unusual.

However the Prius ( especially ) and others are just the first 'prophets' if you will. It will change this year as the 3rd phase of hybrids are offered.

For the skeptics now it is difficult to justify paying $3000 to $5000 just to feel good and get a few toys.

But in July what if you could buy a 2007 V6 Camry for say $25000 with 269 hp and 27 mpg combined FE. .. or
an 2007 HSD Camry with ~200 hp ( '06's have 205 hp ) and about 40 mpg combined FE for about $26000.
Then there is the hybrid Altima as well... and the Ford.

Now there is not so much difference.

PF_Flyer

http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bztax0106,0,1728939.story?coll=ny-business-le- adheadlines

Tax may snag owners of hybrid cars

Buyers of Toyota's Prius, the bestselling hybrid vehicle in the United States, have tended to be relatively affluent, with median family incomes of almost $90,000 a year -- high for a midsize family car.

But, apparently unintentionally on the federal government's part, the new tax credits that took effect this year to encourage the sale of fuel-saving hybrids won't be available to many affluent families if they are among the growing numbers subject to the alternative minimum tax, accountants say.

mirth

...at least I won't be helping a doctor pay for his Lexus hybrid.

gagrice

If I am reading the tax code correctly you may not be subsidizing very many hybrids. If it affects married filing jointly down to $58k adjusted gross, that covers a lot of people.

donzi81

You'll be subsidizing me! Thanks guys

Got a quote from Travelers but their discount doesn't take effect until Feb. They now offer 10% discounts to hybrid owners.

gagrice

Go with Farmers insurance. I got a discount on my GMC hybrid.... I think they are only offering the hybrid discounts in CA.

donzi81

Thanks for the tip. I am going to compare some more rates. Even though they say 10%, I may be able to find a better rate.

mirth

Just read the info on the new Camry at carconnection.com (Edmunds - where are you?). They said that the hybrid powertrain is going to slot between the 4 and the 6 cylinder versions price-wise, and will be presented as just a different powertrain option. Plus, the horsepower will slot between them as well, 192 HP estimate for the hybrid vs 158 and 268 for the 4 and 6. If they can hold the price of the hybrid powertrain down (I'm a bit skeptical), then I think this will be very smart positioning by Toyota.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Sedans_and_Coupes/Preview_2007_T- oyota_Camry.S180.A9861.html

kdhspyder

Guessing on price levels.. see my post on the 2007 Camry Forum.. $26000ish?

larsb

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10722334/

For 2006, the five-passenger Civic Hybrid has a new, aerodynamic shape that isn’t as severe as the Insight’s and isn’t as plain as last year’s Civic Hybrid.

The look, with windshield raked forward, is upscale and modern inside and out. And so was the fit and finish of the test Civic Hybrid. All seams and body and trim panels fit precisely and were well-aligned.

The driving experience with the hybrid powerplant is different, because for the first time in a Civic Hybrid, the vehicle can be powered solely via electric power in some driving situations, such as during cruising. Previous Civic Hybrids always required some internal combustion engine involvement.

PF_Flyer

Toyota Camry Hybrid

The 2007 Toyota Camry gives you plenty of options. On the edge of your seat wanting a hybrid? The 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid touts 43 city/37 highway mpg.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8e56c

PF_Flyer

Hitting the streets in mid-2006, the 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line Hybrid will be the most affordable Hybrid SUV with starting price less than $23,000. What's more, the Saturn Vue Hybrid is rated at 27 mpg city and 32 mpg highway and delivers 27 more horsepower and an estimated 20-percent increase in fuel economy over the standard Vue.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8e572

PF_Flyer

General Motors is in the hybrid game giving us a look at the 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid & GMC Yukon Hybrid SUV's. These are real SUV's - they tow, haul and seat up to 8 people.

People love their SUVs and hate the gas station fill-up trauma on the wallet. The Tahoe and Yukon Hybrids might just keep the American love affair with the SUV going strong.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8e55a

larsb

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060110/1021708.asp

Hybrids incite road raves

The number of gas-electric hybrids on the road is small, but interest is growing in these gas-efficient and environmental friendly vehicles

By the early 2010s, Toyota says, it plans to sell a million hybrid vehicles a year worldwide, and Ford says it will make 250,000 annually.

larsb

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jan2006/bw20060109_446045.htm

Invasion of the Hybrids
The auto giants are putting the spotlight on their eco-offerings at this year's North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

Hybrid vehicles are proliferating, and not just because gas prices spiked to above $3 per gallon last year. Auto makers showing off new hybrid vehicles and plans at this week's North American International Auto Show in Detroit realize that having a hybrid vehicle lineup is valuable public relations for their images.

PF_Flyer

Concept-CT is Mitsubishi's take on a city car of the future. Utilizing both hybrid gasoline-electric drive and the potential for electric-only operation, the Concept-CT is an exercise in technology, utility and efficiency.

Edmunds Detroit Show Coverage of the Concept-CT

Concept-CT blog

cal_cal

Those are great MPGs. The Accord Hybrid at 29/37 will be dead.

PF_Flyer

The mileages we're seeing on current hybrids HAVE to be improved upon. Heck, I had an '81 Sentra that got in the mid 40's driving it just 3 miles to work and would get about 55 on the highway.

No way I can see that the current technology is even close to the best that can be done as far as practical efficiency goes.

larsb

that 2-door 81 Sentra was a bucket of bolts compared to the safety, creature comforts, and technology in the new hybrids.

The two high mpg Hybrids up to now (Insight excluded) have generally been "loaded" and considered solid and very safe. That solidity and safeness add weight, as does the noise prevention insulation, and the hybrid drivetrain, etc etc, and all this added weight means all the technology to improve MPG has to work THAT much harder.

If a car maker wanted to build a hybrid similar in body composition of your 1981 Sentra, they could not do so because of safety and weight issues.

I agree with you that technology needs to improve, and it will do so. Can you imagine trying to get a car the size of the Hybrid Camry to achieve 43/37 MPG back in 1990? Not possible until hybrid technology. It will get better, but people in the USA have proven they will not accept small, tinnish cars in large numbers, no matter what.

mirth

...that 43/37 EPA figure says to me that the "real-world" figure will be more like 31-33 MPG average. Good, but not earth-shattering.

larsb

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/01/epa_mpg.html

About dang time !!!

larsb

There will be PLENTY of people getting 48 MPG in the TCH, as well as the crybabies who will drive it like a hotrod and only get 35 MPG.

kdhspyder

Nope, you are mistaken on this point. As with all vehicles, hybrids included, the driver input and the length of trip are the key factors .. then weather.

Most pessimistically from my own experience and others is that combined mileage ratings will be 37 mpg instead of 27 now on the ICE Camry. That's a 30%+ improvement which is consistent with both the Prius and the HH. Some drivers that can approximate EPA driving conditions in their daily driving will get in the 40's combined.

Driver input
Specific conditions
Weather.

larsb

http://www.acnnewswire.net/article.asp?Art_ID=31061&lang=

Civic Hybrid Modulo Concept Vehicle

Based on the Civic Hybrid, which combines high levels of both driving pleasure and environmental performance, this Hybrid sports model employs innovative styling and advanced technologies to attain new levels of driving excitement. For the exterior, the Civic's highly stable, low center-of-gravity form is enhanced with a louvered intake with variable alignment in response to vehicle speed, a trunk lid spoiler, and a diffuser, which supplement the vehicle's flat bottom to achieve outstanding aerodynamic performance. Aerodynamic wheel covers for the 19-inch aluminum wheels add to the Civic Hybrid's driving performance and fuel economy. Advanced technologies include a combined information display for NAVI, audio and air conditioning, touch-panel controls, a connection pocket for external devices, and side mirror cameras.

moparbad

EPA MPG changes to dent hybrids

Gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles will be more affected, with ratings for city driving decreasing an average of 20 percent to 30 percent. With that kind of correction, a 60-mpg Toyota Prius would suddenly be rated at 42 mpg.

The shine may be off the hybrid apple soon.

larsb

quote-"The shine may be off the hybrid apple soon."

Everyone who knows anything knows the EPA tests are outdated and wrong for almost EVERY car.

The difference is that with Hybrids, a driver can learn how to drive it and INVARIABLY equal or exceed the INCORRECT EPA numbers now, even today. When the test finally gets changed, all that happens is that a lot more people will EXCEED EPA numbers, and hybrids will look BETTER because almost all of the drivers will be exceeding EPA figures. Bring that new test on !!

205,000 hybrids sold in USA in 2005.

Up to ten more hybrids to be available in USA within the next 2 years.

Virtually every hybrid on car lots is selling out.

Virtually every car company selling cars in the USA has a hybrid in the works for future release.

Hybrid sales numbers are not going anywhere except up.

mirth

Nope, you are mistaken on this point. As with all vehicles, hybrids included, the driver input and the length of trip are the key factors .. then weather.

Most pessimistically from my own experience and others is that combined mileage ratings will be 37 mpg instead of 27 now on the ICE Camry.

I guess we'll see, but I expect to read reviews that say things like "although the EPA ratings for the Camry hybrid are 43/37, we only averaged 33 on our xxx mile trip..." I agree that driver input, conditions, and weather all can drastically affect MPG, but unless you're a hyper-miler who enjoys sweating rather than turning on the A/C, I don't think we'll be seeing anywhere near 43MPG. IMHO.

larsb

quote mirth-"...unless you're a hyper-miler who enjoys sweating rather than turning on the A/C, I don't think we'll be seeing anywhere near 43MPG. IMHO."-end quote

Some people are getting 43 MPG highway now from the Accord Hybrid, which is rated at 37 hwy. Those same people will be able to get near 50 MPG with the Camry Hybrid !!

kdhspyder

I agree that driver input, conditions, and weather all can drastically affect MPG, but unless you're a hyper-miler who enjoys sweating rather than turning on the A/C, I don't think we'll be seeing anywhere near 43MPG. IMHO

The key points of driver input, specific conditions and weather are that any driver can and will achieve EPA numbers if they drive in exactly the same manner as the EPA specifies it's tests. It's just physics. Replicate the conditions and the results are the same. Replicating the conditions are the difficult part. As I mentioned previously on a 50 mi trip on NYD I averaged ~65 mpg with segments above 70 mpg and one 5 min segment above 90 mpg.

For daily driving you dont need to do anything special to achieve 48-50 mpg in a Prius or likely 36-38 in the new TCH. My daily 150 mi trip is 90% at 60-63 mph with a few stops and 47.5 mpg is the number all day now in winter. with heat and no coat.

Hell every day I drive the last 2 miles home 'free' at an infinite rating, 2 miles/zero fuel used.

But you are right about one point the hybrids will seem to take the biggest hit, but so will technology change in 5 years, since the hybrid numbers are so significantly higher than all other vehicles. 15% of 50 is a lot more noticeable than 15% of 15. Which is better tho? So one is decreased from 50 to 42 mpg and the other is decreased from 15 to 13. 42 is still a lot better than 13.

The shock will be that as CR has found out an EPA 20 mpg auto may only be getting 14 mpg in City in real conditions. It's just that now there are no vehicles that have the technology to measure what is happening so dynamically as the hybrids do.

xcel

Hi Mirth:

I guess we'll see, but I expect to read reviews that say things like "although the EPA ratings for the Camry hybrid are 43/37, we only averaged 33 on our xxx mile trip..." I agree that driver input, conditions, and weather all can drastically affect MPG, but unless you're a hyper-miler who enjoys sweating rather than turning on the A/C, I don't think we'll be seeing anywhere near 43MPG. IMHO.

While in Pittsburgh last year, I took a couple with an almost brand new Prius II out for a driving clinic. It was in the mid 80’s, the A/C was in Auto and set to a rather comfortable 75 degrees, and they had just arrived back home from a camping trip IIRC. In other words, the hatch was loaded with stuff, the owner (he was driving), his wife, and I (coaching from the passenger seat) were in the car, the car was practically brand new, the A/C was on and it was very comfortable, and it was surely not setup properly for hypermiling. After 20 + miles w/ a reset averaging display and from the parking lot to the exact same parking lot, we nailed down an 85.x mpg something or other segment and that is after hitting maybe 10 stop lights and 2 stop signs along the way. That single driving clinic was one of the highlights of that weekend in fact …

You are going to see far higher then just 43 mpg from multitudes of TCH owners in very short order if I have anything to do with it

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

moparbad

Every Toyota dealer in my area has at least two Prius in stock. No waiting list. No selling out. The Hybrid Highlanders are setting for months without buyers.

Virtually every hybrid on car lots is selling out.
Not in all areas. What are you talking about?

When the test finally gets changed, all that happens is that a lot more people will EXCEED EPA numbers, and hybrids will look BETTER because almost all of the drivers will be exceeding EPA figures.

Everyone who knows anything knows that mpg for every car will look better compared to EPA estimates after the test is changed, not just hybrids.

larsb

quote myself then mopar-Virtually every hybrid on car lots is selling out. Not in all areas. What are you talking about?"-end quote

OK let me modify that, since you didn't like my wording:

All hybrid cars being manufactured are being sold, which leads to the obvious conclusion that they are selling them as fast as they can make them.

moparbad

Can any car manufacturer match the success of the Prius?

Rivals turn up heat to challenge Toyota hybrid push

kdhspyder

Eventually.. 3-4 yrs.. I think Diesel Hybrids will really be the optimum power systems for the next 10 yrs.

larsb

I'm waiting for the first 5-passenger USA diesel/electric hybrid which has EPA in the 60s. I'll stand in line a month to buy one of those. :shades:

idele

I don't have a dog now but when I did, my dog when out on the rear deck would recognize the engine sound and would be on his feet watching for my car to come into view around the bend. Now I have an RX400h and frequently it is running rather quietly on the batteries so I wonder if my late dog would be able to recognize a quietly running hybrid. Perhaps he could by the tire noise. I'd be interested in posts by dog and hybrid owners.