Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)

pilot130 · October 2005

Knowing that it will result in criticism (perhaps some creative invective too), I feel obliged to offer a word or two of caution regarding Lemon Law litigation--especially in California.
That State is well known as a litigious centre of the universe. Everybody sues everybody, at every opportunity. Lemon Law litigation is a highly competitive growth industry there. Law firms are promising the world just to get clients signed up.Be prepared for a surprise as to how costly the contingency will be.
You were told the firm you signed on with has already succeeded in a case involving hesitation. You might want to check that out to make sure the hesitation they're talking about is the same as yours. You might also ask to see the court decision, or at least view the the precedent. I would also want to know precisely why and how your Lawyer expects he can win hands down. (alto' in Calif. the law is very much biased toward the owner, and it's almost a given that if you've had four visits about the same problem, it could be an easy winner)
Know exactly what the contingency formula consists of before you sign up. Here's a direct quote from a typical firm in Calif.--"Attorneys fees are paid in part by the manufacturer and in part by the client, but only after the client recovers her or his monies from the manufacturer, and only out of the monies recovered from the manufacturer."

Just be cautious that you're not being led down a path of disappointment. Mark A's firm is no different than most others there.

theflow · October 2005

All I can say is that my experience with MA's firm and with him have been positive. And I paid $0 out of pocket.

Do you have solid facts or proof that lemon law firms in CA are deceitful? Did you hire a CA lemon law attorney before and get burned by attorney fees?

"Mark A's firm is no different than most others there."

Do you have solid proof? Otherwise, would it be considered libel by making that statement?

pilot130 · October 2005

I didn't say anything about, nor did I infer that any firm in CA was deceitful. How on earth did you get that impression?
Man, you guys are too sensitive!
The intent of my post was just to advise caution, nothing more. I made that very clear.
Insofar as my comments about Mark A's firm being no different than others, you are welcome to show me otherwise, but it's my opinion.
Libel?? I don't think so!! (Wishful thinking on your part perhaps, but no, it isn't)
BTW, you never did say whether or not you won yours. If so, could you advise what level of court it was, ie district, etc., and when the case convened?
Yes, If you did win, you most assuredly didn't pay anything out of pocket. But the settlement would very likely be net of Attorney fees, right?

bkinblk1 · October 2005

I was told attorneys fees are paid by the manufacturer. If I do not agree on a settlement (98% are settled), no fees are owed. I was told by Mark A's assistant that I would pay no fees whether I won, lost, settled, went to trial, etc.

scoti1 · October 2005

I recall reading of some settlements on the Lexus forum below. May be of interest to you if you haven't read them yet.

"Transmission problems with Lexus ES-300 ?"

bkinblk · October 2005

Pilot- you might want to check post 453 between yourself and theflow. In Cali, consumers are well protected by their lemon law rights. In this case, lawyers make their living not from the client, but from the manufacturer. If they are a well respected lemon- law law firm and take the "gamble" by accepting your case, they are reasonably sure they will be successful. In either case, the client will pay nothing.

wwest · October 2005

TIME.....

Often lots of it.

pilot130 · October 2005

To quote you:"In this case, lawyers make their living not from the client, but from the manufacturer."
Semantics??
Sorry to disagree. My quote was cutpasted right off the web page of a prominent San Francisco Law Firm.
The contingency fee formula was quite specific, and seems common to most Law Firms in the area.
Fees come out of the settlement payable to the litigant.
The litigant gets what's left AFTER the Law Firm takes its cut.
Sure, the litigant doesn't get charged a fee directly, but ends up getting less than a full out settlement paid by the manufacturer.

BTW, I cannot find any record of any Lemon Law cases on record for all of CA having to do with any kind of hesitation---Toyota or anyone else.
I understand not being able to find some private Arbitrations on record, but my database covers all levels of court proceedings anywhere in North America, either Canada or US.
If such a case was heard, it would be there. It's not. I searched by Case, by Lemon Law, by Manufacturer,by the Problem, and by the M. A. Law firm.
No Joy.
All the more reason to be cautious.

And Wwest is correct about lots of your time. If you value time at all, it costs dearly.

I'll say no more and just leave it at that.

theflow · October 2005

I tried to leave you alone but your posting is just....WRONG.

"The litigant gets what's left AFTER the Law Firm takes its cut.
Sure, the litigant doesn't get charged a fee directly, but ends up getting less than a full out settlement paid by the manufacturer."

The settlement from manufacturer INCLUDES the attorney fee/costs. You are not getting 1 penny less from what you are legally entitled to. The formula is Purchase Price minus Offset + Tax + License Fee + Interest, and read this, + ATTORNEY FEES/COSTS. ATTORNEY FEES/COSTS INCLUDED IN SETTLEMENT FROM MANUFACTURER ON TOP OF WHAT YOU ARE LEGALLY ENTITLED TO. Let me repeat one more time. ATTORNEY FEES/COSTS INCLUDED IN SETTLEMENT FROM MANUFACTURER ON TOP OF WHAT YOU ARE LEGALLY ENTITLED TO.

"I cannot find any record of any Lemon Law cases on record for all of CA having to do with any kind of hesitation---Toyota or anyone else."

Of course you cannot find any record. The case was settled between the manufacturer and the client before even going to court. I believe there are some legal documents filed because I found my name in the county records. But I am not surprised you cannot find anything because there wasn't even a trial.

"And Wwest is correct about lots of your time. If you value time at all, it costs dearly."

Sorry but the only TIME I spent was 60 minutes with the attorney and he took care of the rest. Well worth it in my opinion.

I used to think you know all these lemon law stuff but seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you even hired a CA lemon law attorney before?

pilot130 · October 2005

Quote:"Knowing that it will result in criticism (perhaps some creative invective too), I feel obliged to offer a word or two of caution regarding Lemon Law litigation--especially in California", unquote.

That's all I intended. Offer a word or two of caution, nothing more, no less.
It was truthful, sincere, and polite.
The invective was more creative than necessary; perhaps even over the line.

billran · October 2005

bkinblk: Toyota. They too ignore overwhelming evidence.

I believe that is not only an exaggeration, but inappropriate. I thought that flat out slamming of any manufacturer was not acceptable. I dont think it helps anyone's case either.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

IOkayyyy......posts had to be removed for making personal comments and for "brand-bashing".

If this bickering can't be worked out among you, I'm going to ask permission to close this topic entirely.

This is supposed to be fun, and I don't enjoy being a warden.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. If you are provoked, ignore it. Provokers go away if nobody plays with them.

2. If you have an issue with another member, e-mail me. Don't fight it out online

3. Don't personalize your comments. You can always use "one should never" rather than YOU should never, for example.

Anyway, this whole topic is on notice to use this forum for your own good benefit. This isn't a court of law. Thank you, and remember to enjoy yourselves.

Shifty the Host

scoti1 · October 2005

Some good Lemon Law buyback info from right here at Edmunds.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/43774/article.html

scoti1 · October 2005

Was hoping Toyota would fix it with the '06 models.

buzz123, "Toyota Avalon 2005+" #9684, 25 Oct 2005 7:20 pm

winnipegavalon · October 2005

Just curious why you promote hesitation and other issues about Toyota so much. Are your problems with Toyota that bad? I would be interested in hearing more about your problems. We have an 06 Avalon. It's our second one and it's OK so far.

user777 · October 2005

if you are a follower of this forum, you will know scoti is not bashing 1 particular manufacturer. no one is. we also believe everyone with a DBW toyota isn't experiencing this phenomenon. we are merely trying to come to some understanding about it.

motownusa · October 2005

Yes he is sort of. I see him showing up in Toyota forums only. I certainly haven't seen him in Chevy or Ford forums. And he doesnt even own a Toyota so I certainly would be curious what exactly his interest is in this so called problem.

scoti1 · October 2005

I see that you just became an Edmunds member today. Welcome! Maybe you should read up on the discussions and become more familiar with the issue. It is likely that if your Avalon is "OK so far" that it isn't affected by this problem.

billran · October 2005

And he doesn't even own a Toyota so I certainly would be curious what exactly his interest is in this so called problem

Is that really true? I had just assumed that everyone complaining here owned one of the suspect vehicles and had a hesitation problem. If there actually are people complaining about this issue, who dont even have one of the vehicles being discussed, I would be curious as to why as well.

wwest · October 2005

But being sympathetic, and sincerely trying to be helpful.

Also feel I have a right to be here since a new AWD RX330 is very likely in my future. Currently own a 2001 AWD RX300 but will not trade up until I can be sure I won't be buying a lemon.

In the meantime I'm waiting to see what the new RAV4 4WD system is all about.

And remember, as those of us in the high technology industry often say, "The leading edge is very often the BLEEDING edge." There is no doubt that Toyota is an industry leader insofar as the use of applications of high technology are concerned.

I suspect that in this case, with the advent in the use of total electronic control of the transaxle, lead someone to believe that control could be used to increase fuel economy and lower emissions, and possibly reduce the number of accidental injuries and deaths resulting from engine compression braking on FWD or front biased AWD vehicles on slippery roadbed surfaces.

But then the unexpected, the BLEEDING edge, rose up and bit them. Transaxles with the breakthrough firmware began to fail prematurely.

Going to the EPA/CARB, hat in hand, and asking to revise the MPG & emissions ratings for the millions of vehicles already on the road, fix the firmware, would have been totally unacceptable for anyone of the Japanese culture. Not to mention the huge fines that might also entail.

So DBW was adopted "to protect the drivetrain".

theflow · October 2005

Wwest or Shifty the Host,

Can you guys please explain something for me?

The car I used to have is the 2004 Solara 3.3V6 with the 5-sp sequential auto transmission.

I want to know, when the transmission is in D, is it possible for the gear to go neutral (not N in the shifter) when I slow down or hit on the brake? I am not sure if you understand my question. But by saying going to neutral, it is not from D to N on the shifter. It is more like if the gears will disengage and stay neutral even the shifter is in D.

The reason I asked is because I can almost duplicate the hesitation 100% of the time when I hit the brake to slow down (not to a complete stop, just slowing down), then hit on the gas again. I saw the RPM just keeps revving up (looks like its in neutral), the car idle for 1-2 seconds, and then seems like the gear got engaged in the 5th gear, then it senses the gas pedal position and downshifted once or twice, and the car surged forward.

Another experiment I have done is using the 5-sp shifter. That thing is not exactly a real auto-shifter like those in Audi. But you pay for what you get. Anyway, the transmission upshifts and downshifts by itself even its in sequential mode, but the highest gear it will upshift to will be the gear indicated on the dashboard. I did the same experiment in local driving. I hit on the brake to slow down, and then hit on the gas. The only difference is that the highest gear that it can go to is the 3rd gear. Same thing happened. The RPM revs up. Car idle 1-2 seconds, then I can sense a loud clunk and the car kind of jerk a bit when the gears got engaged and the car surges. Even the passengers can feel that clunk.

So my question is, if the transmission can really go neutral while in D, does the DBW system have anything to do with it? In my opinion, the intention of going neutral appears obvious, which is to save on gas and get the advertised EPA mileage. Do the old transmissions (4-sp) do the same kind of shifting?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

While your problem sounds basically similar to the infamous "hesitation" issue, I would say that if your tachometer actually shows the revs going up with no forward motion whatsoever, then you have an additional issue with your transmission above and beyond the usual. Maybe a bad front pump seal or a torque converter malfunction would aggravate a symptom that could be generally categorized as "no application of clutches. "

Hard to say if your trans is really "disengaged" or if you are seeing a rise in revs due to a downshift. Perceptions can be tricky.

user777 · October 2005

well, to the best of my recollection, the issue was originally being discussed in the Toyota Highlander P+S forum. The discussion was moved to this specific forum to discuss Engine Hesitation (on a general make/model irrelevant basis). It never began or stayed general because the people reporting this issue practically exclusively were people driving Toyotas (Camry, Avalon, Highlander, Sienna) or Lexus with DBW technology. This is in part why some people are interested in the issue, because it seems as if there is some aspect of the DBW implementation, or transmissions used with same which is resulting in the issue.

you don't need to drive a Highlander or a Camry or whatever to have an interest in this particular issue, just as it is not a pre-requisite to have any particular issue with a particular make/model, and post in that make/model specific P+S forum - providing what you are doing is constructive and within the rules set out by your agreement to use of the Edmunds site, and within the review of the Host.

i believe scoti has been trying to cull poster comments from other forums and direct people here, but in general, hesitation isn't being discussed in those forums. also he helps make everyone aware of new posts in other forums related to the issue.

wwest is trying to provide a model of the design of the system based on materials he has acquired from the web, toyota/lexus publications, and papers on DBW, plus experiments with his vehicle.

my motivation is interest in the human factors issues associated with complex systems and whether or not they usurp the authority of the human. i am also interested in the problem from a controls perspective, and owning two AT vehicles with no hesitation, wonder what is so special about these DBW systems which causes these symptoms in a (we believe but don't know) small population of the production.

wwest · October 2005

"...used to have...."

You already disposed of this lemon?

What you are describing fits the engine/throttle hesitation symtom to a "T".

Earlier 4 speed automatic transaxles, such as the one in my 2001 AWD RX300, exhibited some of symptoms, shifting into "neutral" (upshifting) just before coming to a full stop, and during closed throttle coastdown at ~30 - 40 MPH.

With no DBW throttle in these earlier models when the driver suddenly changed his/her mind and decided to accelerate quickly, rapidly, the engine would start developing high torque immediately all the while the transaxle is busily downshifting into a more appropreate gear ratio.

Follow that procedure with a stick shift and you will always get clutch slippage. Do it often enough or over a long enough period and you end up with no frictional surface left on the clutch.

Toyota decided that they could prevent you from causing premature clutch surface wear in your 5-speed transaxle by using DBW to delay the onset of engine torque during these downshift sequences.

So no, the DBW has nothing to do with the fact that your transaxle upshifts (into neutral??) during closed throttle coastdown situations. I have liitle doubt that these upshift sequences are the result of a desire to increase fuel economy and lower emissions. And since the problem seems to be much more prevalent in FWD or front biased AWD Toyota/Lexus vehicles it may also be to reduce the instances of loss of directional control due to engine compression braking on a slippery roadbed surface.

I have occassioned many instances during the winter months on icy roadbeds wherein my ABS activated at very low speeds and with very light brake application so that I could maintain steering control of the vehicle. So I have little doubt that very slight engine compression braking, especially at the front, resulting from downshifting into first just before coming to a full stop would sometimes result in loss of directional control and potentially a serious accident.

I might downshift a RWD manual transmission vehicle in these circumstances and "feather" the clutch to brake slightly and maintain directional control, but I would NEVER dare try that procedure with a FWD vehicle, even one with a stick shift.

So, DBW is a "fix", not a causative factor.

billran · October 2005

Thanks for the explanations, and I certainly agree that this board should be open to anyone, whether they have a car with hesitation or not. I am a bit surprised however to learn that three of the most prolific posters (scoti, wwest and user777) dont even actually own one of the cars with hesitation. Some of the harsh things said in here about the cars being unsafe led me to believe that you had all personally experienced the hesitation being discussed. It does put things in a different light though. At least for me. Makes me wonder how many true owners of hesitating vehicles are actually here.

motownusa · October 2005

This forum lost its usefulness long time ago.

mert2 · October 2005

if your tachometer actually shows the revs going up with no forward motion whatsoever

That's what mine is doing.

Then, it 'catches', and throws me forward. This is most noticable in slow stop & go driving, like cruising the parking lot mall looking for a space.

I described it earlier as similar in feeling to an old turbo-charged engine.

Perceptions can be tricky
amen to that. I wish you were in OK or TX so you could drive it.

user777 · October 2005

motownusa, then you can choose not to read the forum. no one is forcing you to. unsubscribe. peace.

what's interesting is posters like billran and pilot130 discounting the claims of people with the hesitation issue which is completely non-genuine. at least we are trying to understand the phenomenon - and we are supporting the people reporting the issue.

i dont have an agenda, and i don't need a PHD or government agency to tell me hesitation in a vehicle represents a safety hazard. each time someone reports applying the throttle and not going with traffic oncomming in either direction and what they experience makes the case.

yes I don't own one of these hesitating vehicles. but if I did, i'd get out of it ASAP and take the hit financially if I had to.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Hard to say if it's just hanging between shifts or if there is an actual malfunction. If the clutches are literally not applying then something is amiss...maybe a trans service and filter change would help this, I dunno. Damn new transmissions are more difficult to assess as you don't know if the issue is electronic or hydraulic.

bkinblk · October 2005

Mine does exactly the same thing

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

I thought the typical hesitation was a drop into 5th gear and then a kind of dead pedal, not a runaway engine on the tachometer. You mean your car falls into neutral and you see the revs jump up and then the car jerks back into gear?

Well either the hesitation is a dead pedal kind of thing or the hesitation is a free-wheeling kind of thing....or....is it both? If it's dead pedal, you wouldn't get a "jerk" or 'lunge", if its a free wheeling, you would notice that as the gear "caught".

wwest · October 2005

It could be both....

But in the meantime remember that the tachometer and speedometer is driven by an output from the engine/transaxle ECU module. Maybe just the standard circuitry or is there some firmware in between?

Several posts long into the past have reported hesitation delays that involved rising engine revs and then sudden gear engagement. It appears the "no response" at all carries the day though.

And also keep in mind that we are possibly dealing with differing symptoms from/for each of/with an unknown number of TSB revisions since the first one in 2003.

billran · October 2005

what's interesting is posters like billran and pilot130 discounting the claims of people with the hesitation issue which is completely non-genuine.

I have never discounted the fact that some people do indeed have an issue with their car. Obviously some do. And, as an ACTUAL OWNER of one of these exact cars, and one that performs flawlessly, I believe my opinion is just a valid as those who have a problem.

I have no idea why a bunch of people who dont even own one of the cars have decided to jump on the bandwagon. Hearing people that don't actually own a one of these cars say how awful and unsafe they are, is a bit hard to swallow.

I also notice that when it quiets down in here, it is often one of the non-owners who gets it stirred up again. Makes me wonder.

When I first posted that my car ran fine I was attacked, and I made the observation that only people who own cars that have a problem are welcome. Obviously thats not exactly true. Anyone who wants to come in and say how awful these cars are, even if they have never driven one, is most welcome to join in.

scoti1 · October 2005

I have never stated that I don't own a Toyota and I don't know where that rumor started. I suppose with motownusa. To be honest, I don't "own" one, but I drive a corporate lease '02 Sequoia and got interested in this topic when trying to research the next vehicle to lease (I had my eye on getting an '06 Highlander). Also have elderly in-laws and trying to help them long distance with some of their car-related problems, including an earlier Sienna sludge problem and now what I think is the hesitation problem in their Highlander. That is about as personal I am going to get and the last time I respond to provocation (I promise Shifty).

theflow · October 2005

No. I think typical hesitation is it hesitates to get into gear. I feel the car is in neutral, and then it gets into gear. Normally it will go to gear 5 (which has a longer/higher gear ratio?), and then once it senses you are flooring the gas pedal, it will then start downshifting to 4 or 3. The jerkiness is not too obvious. But while in the sequential mode, when you limit the highest gear to 3, the jerkiness and a clunk can be felt.

So after you hit the gas pedal, you need to wait for it to go from neutral to gear 5, then wait for it to sense the gas pedal position and then shift to 4 and 3 before the car will start getting the power you want. And that wait feels like eternity in some situations. It is also very annoying in stop and go traffic.

Wwest:
Yes I turned that :lemon: into lemonade.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

I don't think you are in fact in "neutral", as the engine would run away wildly as you pressed hard on the gas, and then the car would slam back into gear and lurch.

It would be like flipping the gear lever into neutral, mashing the gas and then throwing it back into drive.

I think you are in fact in gear but your gas pedal is "rubber" and not signaling the injectors for whatever reason--malfunction or the computer is not allowing the injectors to activate for some other reason/signal.

This is beginning to remind me of exactly how old Jetronic fuel injection used to feel when they had a variable resistance throttle position device (circa late 1970s).

user777 · October 2005

shifty - like a non-linearity with the accelerator or throttle position sensing, or a sticking solenoid?

if it were programmed to go to neutral, everyone would be experiencing this...but they aren't.

or possibly, there are a few different issues which everyone is classifying as the same thing.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Well now you are hitting on a subject dear to my heart----the fallibility of anecdotal evidence. (by "anecdotal" I mean only this---not subjected to scientific scrutiny and methodology).

Here's a quote from the Skeptic's Dictionary. While some of it doesn't apply to cars, I think some of it does. I know I'm guilty of some of the things mentioned here:

"Anecdotes are unreliable for various reasons. Stories are prone to contamination by beliefs, later experiences, feedback, selective attention to details, and so on....stories get distorted in the telling and the retelling. Events get exaggerated. Time sequences get confused. Details get muddled. Memories are imperfect and selective; they are often filled in after the fact. People misinterpret their experiences. Experiences are conditioned by biases, memories, and beliefs, so people's perceptions might not be accurate. In short, anecdotes are inherently problematic and are usually impossible to test for accuracy. "

Given all this, maybe the best we can say is that everyone reporting a hesitation issue is experiencing SOMETHING going on, but what it is and how bad it is and how and why it happens is a real jump-ball.

I think Toyota has been ineffective in dealing with the problem for this very reason--in fact, it isn't "any one thing" and the catch-all phrase "hesitation" is something experienced by different people in different ways.

it's not cut and dry like an exploding gas tank or seized AC compressor.

Just my two cents.

mert2 · October 2005

I think part of the mixup is you're a mechanic and I'm not.

If I've said that I push on the accelerator and nothing happens, what I meant was that I push on the accelerator and my car doesn't accelerate. Unlike when I apply the gas to my '99 Camry, the RPMs go up, the speedometer goes up.

On this car, I press the gas, the RPMs go up, but the speed doesn't change. Sometimes it feels like it slows down. Then it catches, and it jerks me forward.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2005

Well regardless of what is EXACTLY happening, the point is that your transmission or throttle is acting confused--like it doesn't quite know what to do. This seems to be a common thread through all the anecdotal stories, even if the effects of this "confusion" seem to differ (small delay, lots of delay, no delay but weird shifting, surging, slowing down, rough shifts, erractic shifts, etc. ).

dino01 · October 2005

Then why are you here?

wwest · October 2005

an owner of a Toyota or Lexus vehicle with sequential shifting capability and were I experiencing the engine/throttle hesitation I would design a circuit such that each time the gas pedal is fully released it would "pulse" the sequential shift control electronics to create a downshift during the forthcoming coastdown.

Owners of same might want to practice the co-ordination required to simply nudge the sequential shifter for a single downshift just as you release the gas pedal if you foresee the need to quickly accelerate upcoming. But remember that with wintertime adverse roadbed conditions on the horizon for many of us do not try this if you suspect a slippery roadbed with any of these FWD vehicles.

"Shifts into neutral", or simply feels as if it shifted into neutral...??

These vehicles ALWAYS release the lockup clutch within the torque converter the INSTANT you touch the brake pedal, even only lightly enough to only illuminate the stoplights. That will often give your bottom of the pants sensor a feeling of upshifting.

Now, I have very little doubt that the feeling of being bumped from behind just before coming to a full stop is the result of the transaxle shifting into neutral in preparation for the upcoming shift into low gear once the vehicle is fully stopped. And there is NO question that the "slingshot effect" feeling we often get/feel is the result of a simple upshifting of the transaxles during coastdown at higher road speeds. That latter effect cause is exactly as stated in the 2001 and 2004 RX series shop manuals.

I believe both these effects to be common to the earlier 4-speed transaxles such as the one in my 2001 AWD RX300 and the newer 5-speeds.

scoti1 · October 2005

Some Toyota/Lexus models still being reported as reliable, but what's up with the Avalon? When I first saw this I wondered if the hesitation problem contributed to the lower rating, but it doesn't seem likely since other models with the problem are still getting high ratings.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-10-26-consumer-reports-usat_x.htm

billran · October 2005

Thanks Scoti. There is also a slightly more detailed version of this report available on www.consumerreports.org under "Free Highlights" "Best and Worst". I will try to put the link here and hopefully it will work.

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv4.jsp?WebLogicSession=Q2Iqe27uiKD8yCXvaWzIsZfDR- 0sQNRybsmHzm23dB2ShWeV3P0J5|-8133692411351511251/169937902/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1|8- 404145997230885102/169937909/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1&CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=754189&FOLD- ER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=1130506875386

motownusa · October 2005

Your link only works for subscribers. As for the Avalon reliability, it is not unusual for a first year model to show some quality issues ( the Avalon has been completely redesigned). That is why I stay away from first year cars. I am sure the 06 and 07 Avalon will again be on top of the reliability charts. Overall, it seems Toyota and Honda pretty much roasted the domestics. So much for domestics being as good as the Japanese competitions. :P

imidazol97 · October 2005

The Avalon is based on the Camry chassis. I believe it was the previous Camry's chassis so it should have most of the bugs worked out. It's not a completely new car since it's based on a stretched version of an existing chassis.

motownusa · October 2005

Check your facts. The new Avalon is not based on the previous Camry's chassis.

The '05 Avalon no longer is a Camry underneath. Toyota started with a larger foundation on which to put the latest Avalon, making it easier to deliver generous interior space

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2005-02-10-avalon_x.htm

billran · October 2005

Sorry for the bum link. The report is available to non subscribers if you go to http://www.consumerreports.org then to Free Highlights on the right side of the screen, then to "Best and Worst in car reliability"

imidazol97 · October 2005

"The front-wheel-drive car shares its basic structure and many of its major systems with the smaller midsize Camry, and it's built alongside the Camry at Toyota's assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky."
http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan24e_20050324.htm

Also a quote from a test:
"Redesigned from the ground up, the Avalon now rides on a stretched version of the current Camry platform."
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=105147/pageId=63224

That's an Edmunds Inside Line article. The author is "By Erin Riches."
Perhaps Edmunds made a mistake? Or was it right?......

Suit yourself.

motownusa · October 2005

" A stretched version" does not constitute as the same version. The Boeing 777 is actually "a stretched version" of Boeing 767 but the two planes are not even remotely similar. Different avionics, engine etc. Same logic applies to the Avalon. Again, I am not here defending the Avalon, but you could do a lot worse than "average" in first MY. Check out the Chrysler 300 and Chevy Cobalt. Complete junk.

P.s.: Thanks Billran

Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles