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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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Comments
The draw for non-owners of affected models may just be the same as that of owners who don't have a problem: for whatever reason(s), it arouses their interest.
I just ran across this tonight whilst innocently seeing if there was a 1/4 mile time for the 05 V6 SE posted anywhere yet:
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/toyota_camry_sev6_2005/15581/style_user_reviews.html;_ylt=A- 9ibyEAsBmNDc0QAhwEd8cIF
Strong complaints about hesitation from a significant percentage of posters on the 05 Camry V6 SE. HMMMMMM................looks like this defect is well recognized outside Edmunds...and the complainants aren't saying that the cars are awful, far from it, just that they exhibit excessive hesitation, and they feel it is is a SIGNIFICANT problem. Read 'em...
I am an ACTUAL OWNER of a 2005 V6 SE 3.3 and can exhibit the TWO second hesitation/LURCH on demand. PILOT, anyone else still want to data test??????? I'll pay for the gas...
Last week I took the car in to the dealer to have them "fix" the problem, only to be told that the transmission had "learned" these habits from me and all I had to do was "retrain" it. It's hard to do that when you have no idea what your "bad habits" are! Plus, I was given no idea how LONG this would take. To make matters worse, the mechanic mentioned that earlier models did have a "fix" they could run, but had no idea yet what to do to reset my transmission.
This is my first experience in a "foreign" car (at least by brand name) and I love every other aspect of it. But since most of my driving is stop-and-go, it really does take a lot of the joy away from the top-down experience! I'm hoping that there will be others who also have this problem and that Toyota is already hard at work trying to resolve it, but I won't hold my breath after reading all the comments here! :confuse:
Recent posts about Avalon in this forum have nothing to do with hesitation, yet we are informed about Consumer reports giving them average rating, and by the way the 06 Avalon has hesitation too because there's one post about it. Then there's a big foofera about Avalon and Camry having the same platform, meaning what?
Next our attention is drawn to a Yahoo rating for Camry where there's one-count it, just one-scathing report by someone who has hesitation. All the rest show excellent. This one result supposedly indicates the problem is in the thousands and very serious to boot. Has anybody read other user reports for this car, for erxample Edmunds giving the Avalon the best rating of all? I can't find another negative report about this car anywhere else.
So what is behind this apparently concerted effort to beat up Toyota by some of you. There isn't another forum in Edmunds about any other make where this happens.
Your response: The reviews from Edmunds and Detroit Free Press are wrong.
???
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I drive a Sienna LE 2004 and there isn't any hesitation when I drive normal but if I blip the gas pedal with 3 or 4 quick shots I can fool the transmission. If I do it to my Dad's 03 Crown Vic it will do the same. So what's the big deal. If you want it to happen on just about any car it will if you try hard enough.
Please, no remiders about my first time posting, no cheap shots about no business here because of no problem, and i have followed this thread so don't lay that one on me either. Thanks.
Absolutely!
Where are you?
I have this modified, "self-contained" plug-n-play otherwise brand new Lexus MAF/IAT sensor module that I would like to try out with someone actually experiencing the engine/throttle hesitation symptom.
Just as an fyi, here are some Avalon posts from just this week that seem to have made the defenders of all things Avalon get in a huff:
ososlick, "Toyota Avalon 2005+" #9743, 29 Oct 2005 7:23 am
chodie, "Toyota Avalon 2005+" #9670, 24 Oct 2005 9:33 pm
bender1, "Toyota Avalon 2005+" #9667, 24 Oct 2005 3:47 pm
buzz123, "Toyota Avalon 2005+" #9684, 25 Oct 2005 7:20 pm
>>
Please, no remiders about my first time posting, no cheap shots about no business here because of no problem, and i have followed this thread so don't lay that one on me either. Thanks.
>>
exactly who is taking these cheap shots?
people here are not bashing Toyota. it would seem that the posts w.r.t. hesitation from people with the vehicle are almost exclusively of one make, similar configuration: DBW, 5-speed. not everyone with this configuration, probably the vast majority don't have a problem. those are the interesting facts.
everyone acknowleges no one knows the total number of vehicles affected. most everyone respects the quality and design prowness of toyota engineering.
we're just trying to understand it.
wwest, instead of trying your MAF sensor, why not put the OBD-II reader on the person's car. that is the thing which someone with the hesitation *MUST* do if we are to further our understanding of what is actually happening as sensed by the system itself.
But what is an acceptable solution or resolution?
For instance I have little doubt that if the transaxle could be "locked" in the current gear ratio for say, ten seconds, each time the gas pedal is fully released there would be no hesitation problem.
I said hesitation can be made to happen by playing footsie with the gas pedal. This may be part of what people are seeing. The West poster may also have part of an answer when he talks about fuel economy and cafe standards. This hesitation is not such a big problem as a few people are trying to prove. Also, I do sometimes sense there is a little brand bashing involved with it.
If you haven't been there it is very hard to relate to the mental stress, "heart in throat" feeling when or if it does happen, in exactly the right (WRONG?) circumstance.
Or am I reading your statement out of context, as in "the problem is not widespread therefore...."?
Personally I relate it to my first time back early in my ownership of my new 92 LS400 when the Trac system inadvertently left me, with absolutely no throttle control, out in the path of oncoming traffic on a busy street.
Harrowing, and totally unexpected, experience.
Check the 2nd page of reviews, there's 2 more negatives, so that's 3 negatives out of 15 total reviews. Even if you throw out the last negative review (which I believe appears to be a little suspect), that's still over 13% negative reviews, both citing hesitation as the problem. I would call that a significant percentage that would appear to be indicative of an actual problem. Here's a link to the 2nd page of reviews:
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/toyota_camry_sev6_2005/15581/style_user_reviews.html;_ylt=A- nAhWe.d9Q9mHt2O42DrdjYd8cIF?sort=mh&trimid=15581&start=11&show=otf&reviewid=20&reviewnum=1- 1
"So what is behind this apparently concerted effort to beat up Toyota by some of you."
I don't know generally, but in my case I paid nearly $30,000 including tax and financing for this car and find this defect to be totally unacceptable. That said, I at least am not out to "beat up" Toyota, but do want to see this problem solved.
"I don't mean to downplay legitimate complaints. But is it important enough for a few to advertise every negative thing one finds in this and other Toyota forums, on and on and on?"
I hope that making others here aware of additional evidence of this problem when it is discovered might help the process along. As long as dealers can keep people like the Solara buyer who posted above in the dark about other people who have identified this problem, they can continue to deny it's a defect and tell the buyers it's their fault for having the wrong driving habits as they apparently told their Solara buyer.
It took me many hours to finally locate this thread while looking for information to solve this problem, and it wouldn't surprise me if there are a lot of people looking for information on this problem just like I was that haven't found this thread yet. That's why I've spent a lot of time here reading and working to find a solution, because I spent a lot of money when I bought this problem, and it's a big one.
When people characterize this problem as imaginary or motivated by some axe to grind against Toyota, I have to wonder what their motivations are. Especially when when it involves misrepresentations of known facts such as how many people over at Yahoo have complained about the same problem.
My motivations should be clear by now; I want Toyota to fix this defect because I invested a LOT of money in their defective product. I should note here that before I bought the 05 SE I drove a 97 Camry LE 4 and couldn't have been happier with it, which is why I bought this one after only test driving it about 2 blocks. I never suspected Toyota would ever ship a vehicle, especially a Camry, with such a glaring defect.
In closing, I want to thank Edmunds for providing this resource where information, ideas and new developments can be freely shared in open forum as we work together to resolve this issue.
"...your experience is unusual."
If you mean the incident with the LS400 Trac system, then yes, granted, it was a unusual circumstance, which is exactly why it was all the more frightening. One grows accustomed to our vehicles performing in an ordinary, expected or normal manner, and then when something unexpected occurs it takes us by complete surprise.
Say Pilot is about to drop the nose of his Cessna 210 for a short field take-off and the engine sputters just briefly, unless he has nerves of steel his pants will soon need a thorough cleaning.
The MAF/IAT module mounts to the intake line just downstream of the air filter with an O-ring fit/seal, held in place with two phillips head screws. One 5 pin connector, pins 1,2 & 3 for the MAF, with pins 4 & 5 for the two ends of the IAT thermistor. I purchased a brand new MAF/IAT module from Lexus of Bellevue and modified it in the following way.
First, I opened the top cover of the module and broke the IAT's internal connection to pin 4. Then I added three light duty stranded wires, one to pin 4, another to pin 5, and a third to the now open end of the thermistor that was formally connected to pin 4. Closed and sealed the module top cover.
Epoxied a DPTT, Double Pole Triple Throw, switch to the module top cover. One position of the switch simply closes, restores, the connection between pin 4 and the IAT thermistor, allowing completely normal operation of the MAF/IAT module.
The "mid" position of the switch simply opens that same connection across which is mounted a 2200 ohm 1/4 watt resister. the third position again closes the IAT connection to pin 4, but at the same time switches another 2200 ohm resister into parallel with the IAT.
At ~70F the IAT has a resistance of about 2000 ohms, so adding another 2200 ohms in series will make the ECU "think" the incoming airflow is a lot colder and more dense than it really is and that should result in an inordinately rich mixture during acceleration(***). Adding the 2200 resistor in parallel with the IAT should make the ECU think the incoming airflow is HOT, thin atmosphere, resulting in a LEAN mixture during acceleration.
I have been running my 2001 RX300 with a duplicate MAF/IAT modification with the exception of a three wire cable so the switch could be mounted in the cabin where is is accessible.
In about two weeks of use of I have not been able to ascertain any noticeable difference in the engine response or performance in either the lean or rich position. I suspect it might be a lot like trying to measure, in a noticeable way, the difference between 87 octane and 92 octane.
I have been tempted to go back to the 4 wheel dyno shop and change the switch position "on the fly" and see what the dyno says about HP differences. But I have another experiment I want to carry out on the dyno at the same time, share the cost, and I need more preparation time for that.
*** I'm quite sure that in a steady state operation mode, cruising down the hwy at a reasonably constant speed, the primary, "front", oxygen sensors control the A/F mixture exclusively. They cannot be used during acceleration since the mixture intentionally is run on the rich side at that time. That's the duty of the MAF/IAT signals.
I'm a paralegal, not a mechanical engineer, dammit!!
However, I have been following along with you on this potential solution ever since jbuchanan posted up on it, and I do think it's worth trying out on my affected vehicle. If it can fix the problem, then I won't have to conclusively document the problem with computer data to try to get help from Toyota...I'd be able to sidestep that whole onerous process, what more could I ask for?
My question is, is this going to be risky as far as my catalytic converter burning up, engine ping damage, etc. I can't afford to use my new car as a crash test dummy.
If there's no risk of that and if it won't void my warranty, (provided I don't say anything about it and of course there should be no visible signs this was done) I'm green to go on it. Let me know, it sounds like you think there's a fairly good possibility this will do the trick.
Just curious, if the modded unit does work, how much would you want for it? I know these are over a hundred stock, so I'm wondering how much ballpark with the mods.
Anyways, thanks for all of your efforts and everyone else's here who have contributed and hung in there trying to find a solution to this problem for so long now.
While I obviously can't guranttee that no damage will result I will say that it is highly unlikely given the fact that so many IAT modifying performance improvement modules are out there in the market. Additionally one has been in my RX300, running mostly in the lean position, and I have seen no indication of ill effects.
But let's be sure we understand each other with regards this testing...
If you do not experience the hesitation problem on a regular basis, or can somehow create the circumstances under which it happens, a short term test such as I would propose would be non-productive.
In that case, on the expectation of early test results within days, I would be glad to Fedx the module to you immediately with no obligation on your part other than to report the results.
But keep in mind that none of us know just what parameter, MAF related or IAT related, changed, nor do we know in which direction the parameter changed. The only clue we have at the moment is the Toyota statement, seemingly confirmed by owners, that the use of premium fuel helps to alleviate the symptom.
So, based on the evidence at hand I would suggest trying the switch in the rich position first. But my personal instincts run counter to the evidence at hand so I have provided the capability to test on both sides of the normal A/F mixture ratio.
If the engine in my Porsche C4 were more prone to knock/ping (IAT "false" lean) I would certainly be a lot quicker to downshift, and more reluctant to upshift prematurely, before seriously accelerating. The book simply says do not let the RPMs drop below 1500 for acceleration. But since my own company has the market cornered on programmers that can also design and understand hardware I'm concerned that Toyota's programmers haven't a clue about managing "hardware".
What we really need is an engine/transaxle ECU that can "look" into our minds and see that we expect, have high expectations, for the need to accelerate soon. But then not even that would compensate for that traffic light that changes to green just before we come to a full stop.
I was looking forward to the possibility of my next purchase being the new RAV4, I4/manual, with a truly functional 4WD system, but now I hear rumors that the manual will not be available. Bummer!
your posts are always well written...
even though it is very clear in wwest's mind what occurs during the hesitation, it still would be *very* worthwhile for everyone else if someone's vehicle, like yours were instrumented with the OBD-II reader (i've provided the link I think 4 times now for a relatively inexpensive model that allows a laptop to capture Toyota specific parameters) when the event happens.
i think this would clear up the issue because it would be objective, and it would be illustrative when discussing the issue. i think wwest has a good idea what is going on, but i admit i'm getting lost with the MAF avenue he is going down. sorry wwest.
with this objective data, we'd have something we could discuss in detail and reference when someone was trying to understand the problem. we'd have something someone could show arbitrators, and also dealership mechanics.
ideally, we could capture the same information from a car with the hesitation issue, and one without.
This hesitation business is just going round and round getting nowhere. My take on it is it's just a little fish in a huge pond and I still find it puzzling why much is being made of it by just a few. Mostly by the same few. The same ones who often get bent out of shape over things like I wrote.
That surely won't keep the naysayers out but will give them little excuse for complaints and the hosts will be free to delete, for cause, "out of line", off-thread, posts.
You directly responded to the new information that I posted from Yahoo and made clearly innaccurate factual statements about it. It is not the first time that this has happened here.
Not one person who has expressed the view that this is not a significant problem or misstated known facts has ever revealed their motive(s) for doing so. Simple logic dictates that there has to be some motive behind it. The refusal to reveal motives gives natural rise to suspicions about what exactly those motives might be.
My posts are not meant as any kind of personal attack or to "beat on" you or anyone else, I am merely attempting to understand why some appear to be attempting to distort or disrupt the free flow of information here.
I have never ventured over to other threads to try and obstruct what people there are doing or saying, or misrepresented known facts, and I fail to see what I would stand to gain by doing so. If I didn't have any hesitation issues I would at most post that fact once here and then move on. It is the conduct itself that clearly begs the question regarding motives, not me.
For example, if someone were to state that they own a vehicle that is unaffected, but that they are concerned that information posted here might decrease the value of their vehicle at resale or trade-in, a reasonable person could understand that.
If someone were to state that their vehicle was affected, but they just felt that it wasn't that big of a deal, and that this thread might affect their resale or trade-in value, a reasonable person could understand that. I am sure there are quite a few other scenarios that also would be perfectly understandable.
But this is the way I see things:
Let's say a grease fire starts in my kitchen and I call the fire department to put it out. As the trucks are rolling up I look out my window and see someone standing out front waving the firemen down, and basically telling them, "There's no fire, everything's under control, go back to the station, nothing to see here."
At that point I am going to have to go outside to straighten things out to get the help I called for. Any reasonable person in that situation would further have to wonder why a supposedly innocent bystander with nothing to gain or lose would be standing out front trying to divert the firemen off the call.
Now let's say that I then go on the internet and find a site where there have been a number of similar fires reported, all using the same pan that I had been using when my fire started. People there are looking into what the potential cause(s) might be, including pan design, materials and cooking and manufacturing techniques.
But there are a number of people posting there saying that they haven’t seen the problem and that there is either nothing wrong with the pan, that it is the fault of the users because they either don't know or don't use safe cooking techniques; or if it is due to the pan, it is only in a small number of pans that are affected.
Again, it is my opinion that a reasonable person would have to wonder why a number of people who haven't had or observed the problem would jump in to make these conclusionary statements without any factual basis, and why they refuse to reveal what their interests are in doing so.
"The yahoo forum with what-15 quips in it is no indication of how big or small the problem is."
You could be right about that. I don't think anyone can say with authority that they know how widespread or rare this particular problem is. The information in the reviews from Yahoo only applies to the particular make, model and trim that I own, the 2005 Camry SE V6. But since more than 13% of the posts specifically cited hesitation as a problem, I believe that it is at the very least convincing evidence that this has been identified elsewhere as being a problem.
"This hesitation business is just going round and round getting nowhere."
Until most problems are solved, efforts to solve them do often tend to appear to be getting nowhere. But, oftentimes with patience and persistence, breakthroughs do occur.
In closing, it is my hope that Edmunds will allow the people who are trying to resolve this problem to continue to move forward in a mutually respectful manner in our efforts to solve this problem. If and when a solution is found to this problem, in the event that it is found at least in part due to our discussion here, I believe that would be quite a large feather in Edmund's cap.
Anybody help/
thanks!
Not to worry, I can consistently get 2 second hesitation by doing a 3-5 mph rolling stop followed by a quick, but slight, press on the accelerator. By waiting a second and then pressing down harder I can induce varied degrees of lurch depending on how much I press.
"I would be glad to Fedx the module to you immediately with no obligation on your part other than to report the results."
I was under the impression that you would come here like Pilot talked about a while back. Keep in mind that you are talking to someone who is pretty "mechanically challenged" IMHO. That said, it sounds to me like the MAF switch would involve just pulling and driving 2 small philips head screws and disconnecting and re-connecting the modded MAF/IAT connector, which plugs back in the same way the existing one is.
Is that correct, and where is the MAF on this engine? Is there a gasket and do I need some type of sealant etc? I'd like to see this experiment done right so if anybody around here has abilities in this area and is able to come to the Cities and assist that would be most appreciated. To do this alone at the very least I would need a list of tools, parts and shop supplies I would need to perform this, along with detailed step-by-step instructions.
"The only clue we have at the moment is the Toyota statement, seemingly confirmed by owners, that the use of premium fuel helps to alleviate the symptom."
That clue doesn't apply to my car, as I used premium exclusively until a couple months ago at about 10,000 miles, and have noticed no change in performance or mileage since switching to regular unleaded.
"I was looking forward to the possibility of my next purchase being the new RAV4, I4/manual, with a truly functional 4WD system, but now I hear rumors that the manual will not be available. Bummer!"
Yeah. After driving my brother's 05 GTO 6.0 manual I realized manual is the way to go. I sure with Toyota would come out with a manual on the Camry 3.3. I'd have to seriously consider taking the loss on a trade-in if they did.
I agree, especially since wwest said himself that even if the modded MAF remedies the problem in rich or lean mode, there will still be unknown variables involved. And obviously running too rich or lean over time would likely be detrimental to the engine to at least some extent, so it's important to know all the parameters involved.
I am a little curious as to why wwest thinks running in lean mode might be the way to go. I personally have the same inclination, and would probably try running in lean mode first.
In my experience, especially with carbed engines, the hesitation followed by surging response is characteristic of a rich mixture, while more steady response accompanied by some knock is indicative of lean. That would also possibly explain why I have not observed any loss of performance since switching from premium to regular unleaded about 3,000 miles ago.
As far as the OBD-II reader goes, I don't have a laptop, don't have access to one, and can't afford to buy one. Maybe Pilot will still be able to make it here sometime and do this.
"i think wwest has a good idea what is going on, but i admit i'm getting lost with the MAF avenue he is going down."
Yeah, even with a few readings I still don't think I firmly grasp all of it. Basically, my understanding is that he's installed a 3-way switch and performed a little hot-wiring to enable the MAF/IAT to be manually set by fooling it with pre-determined incorrect values to induce it to run lean or rich, or to let it run by the ECU as it was designed...IMHO and all that...
Do you have an oil pressure indicator, and if so, what does it read? Any warning lights staying on? Has the engine been running hot? Have your replaced the engine coolant and checked it for rust coloration?
Generally speaking, leaving an engine idling for more than a few minutes is not a good idea. It adds excessive wear to not only the engine but also the exhaust and belts, and wastes gas.
Check the above as well as the spark plugs, plug wires, and pcv (pollution control valve). Look for any disconnected wires or hoses. Partially clogged injectors could also be a possibility with all the engine idling....but the first thing I would check would be your air filter. A dirty air filter actually might be the most likely significant contributor to the symptoms you describe, and is easy to remedy.
Keep in mind I'm not a mechanic, I just try to remember what problems I've (mostly) paid to have fixed. Good luck!
What does this "agenda" consist of? Trying to find a way to fix the defect?
"Anybody with an idea or thought which disagrees with those big players here always gets slammed one way or the other."
You state a conclusion but don't state a factual basis to support it. Be specific.
"Maybe it's their intent to block any opinions other than theirs!"
Not at all. It is pleasant to finally hear you framing your position as being based upon your opinion versus being factually based though.
Normally, I don't land at Wold-Chamberlain because it's too busy and landing fees are brutal. I usually use Flying Cloud which is about 11 miles SW of the city. If you're serious about taking me for a test run, we could meet there. It's your call.
I do have some concerns about your described technique for getting delay/hesitation to occur though. If what you intend to illustrate results of an unusual throttle manipulation, I wouldn't want to waste your time.
I can get the HL to do much the same thing if I diddle with the throttle like you did with your Camry. It'll cause a bit of a lurch too. I think any auto tranny can be fooled to act abnormally if one works at it. My Son-in Law has one of those monster Ram 4x4's with the Hemi engine. I can get it to do some wierd things too, by manipulating the throttle. It will REALLY lurch with that big engine!!! About 4 G's worth!!
But how many drive like that? I certainly don't, and I would suggest that doing what you did isn't a typical situation for most drivers by any means.
The more I read about this phenomenon, the more I think what my Tranny Tech friend told me way back when may be a clue to this issue.
He said today's transmissions are designed to be "mushy" because that's a characteristic the consumer demands--a benign and seamless driving experience. In designing them that way, atypical driving techniques will result in atypical results, ie, erratic shifting, searching for the right gear, etc.
That idea may also explain why some experience the phenomenon where most don't. One would assume the condition would be much more widespread if there was a contributing design situation involved. Widespread it isn't.
Over to you.
BTW I hope the forum remains active, but I agree with concerns expressed about respecting all points of view--especially those which may be contrary to the norm here.
You stated "I can get the HL to do much the same thing if I diddle with the throttle like you did with your Camry."
Are you saying then, that your HL does hesitate under the scenario described by 05camry33se?
http://www.obd-2.com/
specifically look at the list of toyota specific parameters:
http://www.obd-2.com/toypida.htm
someone with a laptop, the interface and SW should be able to capture the relevant data that reveals what is going on.
I'm not diddling the accelerator, just performing a slow rolling stop and then a gentle steady application of gas, driving conservatively like a gas miser. Obviously diddling the pedal would waste gas, not save it.
I get hesitation in stop and go traffic as well, however, I cannot replicate it predictably that way. I am familiar with Flying Cloud in Eden Prairie and could buzz down there for a test run. Do you have an ODB-II unit to hookup?
Even if you don't, I believe that you have expressed some healthy skepticism regarding the hesitation issue, so I feel you would be a good independent witness for this. I'll let you get behind the wheel and test it first hand.
However, be advised that if you drive aggressively, you won't notice a problem. The way to cause hesitation is to drive like you really need to conserve on gas and therefore do not quite come to a complete stop before cautiously proceeding.
We could do a little driving through Eden Prairie and see if we can hit some stop and go traffic to try to replicate the hesitation in those conditions too, just keep in mind that that's hit and miss, happens sometimes, sometimes not.
Let me know when you're coming, hopefully it'll be before it snows, as that might factor into how the car responds.
Other than a deep knowledge and/or experience of how engine/transaxle combinations in passenger vehicles should operate, or have operated acceptably in the past.
A common, but rare, thread that seemed to be there is that the throttle delay was less evident if the vehicle's Trac system was turned off. Anyone with that ability might want to try it.
I have long suspected that the instances of throttle delay in a tight accelerating turn might be due to the anti-rollover aspects of the Trac system. That is also likely the worse possibly time for loss of traction for FWD vehicles, lots of lateral torque simultaneously with high engine driving torque can be a recipe for disaster should the roadbed be wet and/or slippery.
Note that the clear majority of vehicles, seemingly, registering these complaints "here" are either FWD or front biased AWD.
Judging from responses by at least two of your associates, they opine I don't make the grade as reliable or credible enough to take a ride with you.
Before talking to that issue though, I would like to address your comment: "I believe that you have expressed some healthy skepticism regarding the hesitation issue".
I have expressed concerns (call it skepticism if you wish) most recently about (a) Jumping into Arbitration without doing the proper homework and then complaining that the process is biased or unfair, and (b) Retaining Lemon Law Lawyers, especially in CA without knowing exactly what fee schedules are--and they do vary quite a bit from one firm to the next BTW.
I have also expressed concerns over what I've seen are obvious embellishments about seriousness or safety aspects re hesitation, and about the frequent inference that it's some kind of widespread design flaw.
Every time I appear here, it seems to arouse the ire of some of your associates, in spite of the fact that of late I've tried to be as non confrontational as possible.
Still the knives have come forth with a vengeance. I've been called any number of names, and there have been an equal number of veiled inferences as to my intent in doing so.
Evidently they see this as an intentional ploy to derail their discussions. I can state with a clear conscience that it is not.
However, I am not skeptical about the fact there is a problem in the eyes of some, and have gone on record a number of times saying just that. I agree that some feel they have a problem with hesitation--to them it's real, and of great concern.
What I don't agree with is focussing exclusively on the automaker as culpable.
Sure there's a TSB. But it may not be the "admission of guilt" as some insist. It could just as easily be suggested the TSB is simply a method to allow a service tech to tweak tranny ECUs for more user friendly shift response--assuming the user wants it to be something other than as designed.
Now to the visit. I'll let you know when I'm going to the Twin Cities in the next weeks. I usually park at The Exec Aviation FBO. Do know how to get there? I can provide directions if needed.
I don't know what you mean when you refer to my "associates". As far as I'm concerned, we're all associates here.
As far as skepticism goes, I don't have a problem with the type you exhibit, which is of the fact-based type as far as I can ascertain. That's why I called it "healthy skepticism".
As far as arbitration and Lemon Law issues, I don't have time for it and really don't have any position on them. People can do whatever they want in those directions as far as I'm concerned.
As far as safety issues, I have posted that I believe that this hesitation could occur at a critical moment to the best of drivers with potentially fatal results, and I stand by that statement.
I don't believe this is a widespread design flaw simply because there are so many of these V6/5 speed vehicles on the road. If it was widespread I would expect to find a lot more evidence of it, and that mountain of evidence just doesn't exist.
I have never called anyone here any name, and do not endorse or support that type of conduct. I'm just a guy who spent a lot of money on a car who wants to solve a perceived problem. That may never happen and I've accepted that, but am still trying.
I guess as far as culpability, it is my position that since Toyota designed and manufactured the car and sold it to me through one of their dealers, that they should be held responsible for an irregularity of this level, even if it was only occurring in one car.
All that aside, the bottom line is it doesn't look like Toyota is going to solve the problem, so here I am doing what I can with the help I can get here.
I guess if you don't have an OBD-II unit and laptop there really isn't anything much to be accomplished here, but after all this time, I guess I just would like to hear your honest opinion after driving my car.
If you don't find a problem that's fine, I already posted that my own brother didn't, although he did say he "didn't like" the tranny much, but nothing more specific. (Of course he was trying to "see what she'll do" at the time). I actually think the tranny performs pretty smoothly when driven fast.
I don't know where the Exec Aviation FBO is so shoot me the directions when you're coming here. If you could give me a week's advance notice that would be great.
If you're still up for it, I'll contact you in this forum a week or so ahead.
Sorry guys--and Shifty too. You may or may not be right, but I want to see for myself if Camry doesn't mind.
I think what I was driving at is the pitfall that many a clever scientist has fallen into, wherein the data that supports the fact being sought after is noticed but the data that doesn't support it gets overlooked somehow. I plead guilty myself to this.
I hear what you and others are saying but whether Pilot is the best or worst judge really doesn't concern me. Nothing appears to be on the horizon from
Toyota. Besides, Pilot has in my opinion made valuable contributions to our work over all the time he has been here, and I believe he should be given the opportunity to check an affected vehicle out firsthand.
I am fully prepared to have him say that he finds nothing amiss, he finds a slight delay, one sec. delay, two sec. delay, whatever. I don't see what negative impact it could have even if he says there's absolutely, unequivocably, nothing at all wrong. It's not like it would change my perception of how the car drives, but I would find it interesting, and it would definitely make me wonder if there aren't more affected units that I thought that just haven't been noticed.
Especially in light of the fact he has a laptop, OBD-II unit, and stopwatch, I have to wonder what there is to lose. There are already people saying there's something strange/peculiar/annoying with these drivetrains, though not many say it's outright dangerous. Others say it's all a figment of a few people's imaginations.
We all know this problem seems constantly variable, but I am convinced that we would be able to at least document the 1 sec. delay with no problems. If things go well, we'll get the 2 sec. documented.
This is a chance to get some reliable independent data instead of opinions and observations. Sure it's just one quick test, but I think it will be a start towards gathering some kind of data pool to draw from. I also think it is quite generous of Pilot to offer to fly in here with the testing equipment to participate in this.
wwest I'm still waiting to hear from you on the MAF. Do you think it's over my head as far as testing it myself based on what I told you?
"no built in expectation...."
Then how would one judge, for instance, if the severe braking stopping distance is acceptable? That's exactly what may have very well killed and or seriously injured a few drivers who had never before encountered a vibrating brake pedal that results from ABS activation.
I personally know someone who got into an accident because he feared something was wrong and rather than stay on the brakes steared off the road to avoid a rear ender.
I know as far as slow speeds go I either have to come to a full stop and then go, or in a rolling stop situation just barely touch the gas pedal and wait for the engagement of 1st gear before I can do any more (unless I want to lurch, which I don't or course).
If I wanted to impress someone with this car's response I could do so as long as I didn't get caught in stop/go or slow/go traffic...I've got the full stop then go down. It's time this car was offered with a manual, preferably a 6-speed.