I stayed home from work today and am involved in basement flood management... I've been in my house for 23 years and never had water. This is a first.
You've got me worried! If I recall you're in Rye or Harrison or thereabouts? I'm on a ski vacation this week (Lake Louise) and my house is maybe 10 miles from you. We had a tiny amount of seepage in a storm in I believe the fall of 99, not long after we moved in. I wonder what I'll find when we return home!
Well, Canada has even worst taxation policies regarding write off on luxury vehicles. Anything costs more than an ELLPS is useless in reducing taxable income and the taxable benefit rule is also in effect when dealing with company vehicles. I have seen some people here being creative like putting ad signs on their monster Hummers, so that these become ad expenses write off. I guess a Genesis is not a bad idea from the financial perspective.
I didn't mean to worry you but I guess you should know the facts. Some homes escaped unaffected so I surely hope yours is one of them. My seepage was minimal in relation to the magnitude of the situation but others got hit really bad. My street ranged from bone-dry homes to 3 feet in basements according to the fire department. The only thing I can suggest is to have someone go into your home (we have relatives and neighbors hold our keys for emergencies etc.) to check it out if possible. Town services have been helping many with draining and making sure electric and gas is not a hazard.
BTW, as of last night the Bronx River Parkway was still closed from the Sprain Parkway to Scarsdale. Also Bronxville High School was still closed yesterday because of water damage and Mammaroneck took a severe beating. Greenwich also got blitzed. They say this is the worst rain storm we have had in about 125 years.
I don't see it, as a Hyundai. A business/marketing plan is hard to make for it.
Let's get some facts straight here, so that none of us consider to underestimate this company called Hyundai.
In a very short amount of time, by comparison to many others, Hyundai, now the world's 6th largest auto maker, has managed to sell 104,205 units in just the first quarter of this year. With the introductin of some new models, Hyundai is on track to sell close to a half BILLION cars this year in the United States.
I have little problem seeing them take their image upscale by one notch. The caliber of their other newer vehicles, especially their newest SUVs, will support their upward momentum with regards to their image.
Overall, it is impossible to say that Hyundai is not on a roll. And be clear that I am not suddenly trying to become a Hyundai fan... far from it. I just can not ignore the achievements of this company, and the amazing way this particular Korean company has managed to gain such a foothold in the US market.
I expect the Genesis to be a nice flagship for the company, and it will represent them well, IMO... and further improve their image.
Without section 179 qualification, the maximum allowed tax depreciation in each year is pitifully little right now. A $41k used car would take forever to be written off for tax purpose, long past the meaningful service life of a car like a used S or E class.
I think you meant half a MILLION. Half a BILLION is 500 million. There's not even 500 million people in the whole United States. So you're saying nearly every man, woman, and child in the U.S. will have TWO Hyundais in addition to other cars?? :surprise:
Now as far as where the Genesis will slot, maybe it will usurp the Azera? Or they'll build them both and let the Azera take on the Avalon and the Genesis take on the Chrysler 300 or upmarket to the BMW 5/7 series? In any case, I look forward to seeing it and possibly test driving one.
LOL. I absolutely meant to post half a MILLION... It is the sales target for Hyundai this year, namely to approach 500,000 units, which is, of course, a half million. Please excuse the typo, and thanks for catching it so quickly... and humorously!!! (Small typo = Huge error.)
LOL. I absolutely meant to post half a MILLION... It is the sales target for Hyundai this year, namely to approach 500,000 units, which is, of course, a half million.
That does sound like a big number, but keep in mind Toyota moves close to a half million Camrys. Combine that with Corolla, and you're talking 700 thousand+.
I know its easy to compare Genesis with the failure that was the VW Phaeton, but as with Mazda's failure, its not quite that simple. First, Hyundai has no A8 to cannibalize sales of its own car. Second, they certainly aren't going to price it anywhere near the competition. VW thought they could get $80K+. On top of that, the Phaeton really wasn't a great car. It weighed about 8,000lbs. and its electronics were obsolete before the first one rolled off the assembly line.
If the Genesis is a competitive car, they at least have a shot.
There is no doubting the size, scope, and image with regards to TMC. But, approaching a half million annual units... well, that's an accomplishment for Hyundai, considering that the playing field includes the likes of some serious old-timers like Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda and others.
You and I seem to be on the same page regarding the Genesis, and some of your keen insight adds greater depth to the compelling argument that favors the car's potential success.
The most I would possibly pay for a Hyundai, at this point in time, is $35K. If they could create a well-designed, well-performing GS alternative at that pricepoint, I'd be impressed... but not quite impressed enough to rethink Hyundai's image.
Like you said, they need a luxury brand. Toyota's luxury cars would be dead in the water if they hadn't gotten their own brand; it would be sales suicide to sell a likely-$40,000 Hyundai. How about making the actual brand into "Genesis?" Although it's similar in execution to the name Infiniti, it could work. Sounds kind of fancy. But there's no creativity any more- when people used their last names for cars, like Mercedes-Benz, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Audi (Latin translation of Horch)...
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
But, approaching a half million annual units... well, that's an accomplishment for Hyundai, considering that the playing field includes the likes of some serious old-timers like Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda and others.
Oh definitely. Hyundai still has plenty of work left to do though, and they seriously need to work on the positioning of Kia. There's too much GM style overlap there.
Last time I checked, the A8 isn't cannibalizing anyone's sales.
We seem to like to dance around the root question regarding Hyundai/Genesis:
How much are YOU willing to pay to drive a mighty Hyundai?
Audi sold a lot more A8s than VW sold Phaetons. If I were going to buy a Genesis, it would need to have better materials quality than Acura, and better handling than Lexus. No excuses on the electronics either. If Hyundai can't bring NAV with traffic monitoring, bluetooth, a high-end stereo and all the rest, no thanks. I don't get why current Hyundais are so low tech on the inside when they come from the second most technically advanced country in the world.
So you're saying the A8 was/is laiden with outdated electronics? The Phaeton and A8 shared virtually everything. My feelings were that the Phaeton was a VERY nice car, but I wouldn't pay that kind of cash for a VW. It was a dumb move on VW's part. Excellent luxury car (name a light, large luxury car), terrible pricing.
The same for the Passat. Very nice car, but for the money they want for a well equipped one, why not just by an A6 3.2 for about the same and still have more equipment?
My opinion only, but what makes a luxury car is not only feature. A top of teh line Accord could be considered a luxury car if that was all it took.
It is also prestige, legacy and (unfortunately) cost. In other words a car is not a luxury vehicle unless it costs enough to weed the average buyer (me).
Hyundai may end up making an outstanding vehicle with lots of features but it will simply a great value car for a certain buyer group. MB, Lexus and BMW buyers are simply not going to switch to Hyundai. There is no 'cachet'.
Buyers do not buy luxury with value in mind, they buy with exclusivity and 'look at what I can buy' in mind.
Too often people mention "swaying BMW/Mercedes/Lexus" buyers. That is not the only goal. Probably 90% of the time, once a person has bought into those brands, that's where they will remain. It's also, and more importantly, about getting the up-and-comers; the people who are on their way to getting the Lex, Bimmer, or the Benz. Remember the old saying, "Fake it 'til you make it."
"Buyers do not buy luxury with value in mind, they buy with exclusivity and 'look at what I can buy' in mind."
Get your point and you're right but it needs to be rephrased to "buyers will seek value but only in brands they consider luxury brands in the first place". If a brand doesn't have that signature - ala VW with the Phaeton - they will pass it up in droves. The Hyundai Genesis will not capture lux buyers fancy. A Genesis something or other has a much better chance but that is a hell of an investment and also brings to bear my point yesterday - Infiniti and Acura are already way up the totem pole and are struggling to go higher so where's the room for Hyundai to fit in. I don't see it happening and the car is more destined to be to Hyundai what the Avalon and Passat are to Toyota and VW.
I agree, the high-end buyers will not be interested in Genesis. I perceive it as a Korean Buick. The buyer will be someone who wants a bigger, roomier sedan at the lowest possible price. And I agree with Tagman that it should do quite well in that market.
I don't get why current Hyundais are so low tech on the inside when they come from the second most technically advanced country in the world.
There are enough people clamoring for no tech, just car. And there are a plenty of people who don't like squandering money on cars and features they consider frivolous. They would rather get from point A to B and put the extra money somewhere else. And then there are people who simply can't afford expensive cars. The market is there for this type of product and I don't understand why some people are trying to perceive them as something they are not. If Hyundai is to get its foot into higher-end products, it will be a slow evolution. Simple function, reliability and value was step one. It remains to be seen what will follow.
IMO, I believe that Genesis will be cross-shopped with the likes of Toyota Avalon and GM "sub-luxury" platforms such as the Buick Lucerne more than with the established luxury players. Hyundai Marketing may want you to believe the Genesis plays with the luxury leaders, but buyers in this space have never yearned for a Hyundai.
Although the Genesis may be a perfectly fine automobile, it will take a long time to earn their way into the lofty level of BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, etc. Has anyone here actually desired a Hyundai luxury car? It will take time...
Although the Genesis may be a perfectly fine automobile, it will take a long time to earn their way into the lofty level of BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, etc. Has anyone here actually desired a Hyundai luxury car? It will take time...
Different deomgraphics are at work here. The BMW, Lexus, Audi, Mercedes crowd is not likely to compare and shop the Genesis. But consider that the $30K - $40K market is much bigger than the established high-end lux market. That demographic group will have a new value lux car to consider called Genesis that will offer a ton of bang for their hard-earned buck. Never underestimate the "affordability" factor. After all, why do so many folks gobble up so many Hyundais to begin with? So, now a large group of folks will see a genuine luxury car that is actually affordable to them. They will buy it. And drive it to Wal-Mart, where America shops.
Even at $30-40k no one is going to buy a Hyundai. Too much competition from Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Lexus, lesser bimmers and Benzes. People shooping near luxury still want a lux nameplate. Plus, you'd still have to service the thing at a Hyundai dealership, and it would still say Hyundai on the trunklid.
It is also prestige, legacy and (unfortunately) cost. In other words a car is not a luxury vehicle unless it costs enough to weed the average buyer (me).
With each of the premium luxury brands offering cars significantly less than $400/mo (okay, perhaps not Lexus, but both MB and BMW certainly do), none of them is going to "weed out" anyone. If a person can afford a roof over his/her head, he/she can afford a MB, BMW or (to a somewhat lesser extent) Lexus. I remember the days when a loaded Accord V6 cost more than $400/mo, only a decade ago. What's really going on is "luxury" in the minds' eye of the would-be buyer. Luxury because it was once upon a time unattainable; if it's always unattainable, the car brand may as well be dead or owned by a mass merchant, e.g. Rolls-Royce (owned by BMW) and Ferrari (owned by Fiat).
Therein lies the crux of the issue. Luxury brand image is generation-dependent. Chrysler was a luxury brand to the WWII generation, but by the time of my generation, who are currently in their early 30's, Chrysler is a minivan brand. Conversely, to the WWII generation, BMW was a motorcyle and tricycle bubblecar brand, to us it's a legit luxury brand. MB used to stand for stout engineering prowess for practically a century (aside from glib comments on poor MB engine quality by American GI's in WWII), but nowadays the consumers are catching on to its quality declinet after over a decade of consumer disappointment. Brand images do change over time, slowly but certainly do.
No one can afford to sit on their laurels, not MB, not BMW, and certainly not Lexus. The Lexus success story IMHO had a lot to do with luck (not to belittle the outstanding products they deliver or the engineering/marketting talent behind them all): the economic downtown of the early 90's certainly helped Lexus when traditional MB buyers looked for alternatives; the decline of American auto quality of the 80's already made Toyota a household name for reliability (contrary to their 60's and early 70's image of shoddy cars); the fact that MB dropped the ball in the 90's really left the field wide open and propelled Lexus to market pre-eminence.
It's doubtful Hyundai can get that lucky. But hey, lightening could strike twice :-)
If Hyundai is to get its foot into higher-end products, it will be a slow evolution. Simple function, reliability and value was step one. It remains to be seen what will follow.
Exactly! The market place is still a relatively efficient one, a place where buyers still care about value and welcome new entrants that deliver value in spades. Frivolous entries like the VW Phaetom on the other hand is a dead end.
It's not how bad their service is, its the whole package. No Hyundai dealership is going to treat you like a Lexus, Mercedes or other lux dealer will. The reason Lux stores do well is that they hire people who take care of their customers, and are wel paid for doing so. Hyundai stores simply don't have the revenue to hire those people, or to give lux customers the experience they want. It's like saying the KC Royals are going to start competing w/ the Yankees or Red Sox. They just can't do it.
Did the A8 have CD based NAV when it launched like the Phaeton? I remember the Toureg couldn't even display street names with its initial software. VWs are not the most technically advanced cars.
I agree. WV thought there were buyers who would be willing to pay full lux money, but didn't want a snobbish badge. This is the land of the gold package, that will never work here. It didn't even really work in Europe. Hyundai isn't trying to do that. They are trying to do another '90 LS400. Now that Lexus is moving into the $100k realm, I think there is some space in the market for Hyundai, especially since Acura is too timid to try. The Infiniti Q is still a question mark.
No Hyundai dealership is going to treat you like a Lexus, Mercedes or other lux dealer will.
Man, you don't get it.
Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, BMW buyers are not the same demographic group that will buy the Hyundai. If I'm looking at Mercedes and Lexus, I'm not even going to set foot in a Hyundai dealership.
Heard of the "Maxima"? What has that car been doing in a Nissan dealership, for crying out loud? When it first came out, there was not even a hint of Infiniti for many, many years while Nissan sold the Maxima year after year. It was basically their flagship sedan.
So, now Hyundai has raised the bar on their flagship sedan. That's a bad thing? Of course not! It's a good thing to improve their image as well as offer even better and more competitive products than before.
Is there a Wal-Mart on Rodeo Drive? Different market.
So, why worry that high-end lux buyers won't look at the Genesis? Of course not! It doesn't matter! They aren't the Genesis market, anyway.
Hyundai dealerships don't need to brew expresso and serve fruit platters to their customers. A smiling, polite and friendly service writer... and donuts & coffee will be more than enough.
You bring up a great point. Lexus enterred and won over the market in a non leasing era. The fact that a car today is bought on a monthly payment basis 90% of the time rather than an MSRP basis (something you've argued ad infinitum and are dead right about) renders MSRP as meaningless and will make it all the harder for Hyundai.
The fact that a car today is bought on a monthly payment basis 90% of the time
Len,
That is NOT a fact! And far from it.
Be careful here. This argument of brightness's has been pounded to death in the past. You need to know some FACTS here before you get suckered into this idea that is not based upon real-life data.
You certainly must recognize that the frequency of leasing generally rises proportionaly with the price of the car.
The FACTUAL percentage of leases is currently running about 17 percent of all auto transactions in this country... that's right!... only 17%. Look it up if you don't believe me. You can confirm it on the Edmund's site.
The MSRP of an automobile is relevant... not meaningless. And, without any doubt, there are other factors sometimes in place that can cast a shadow on the MSRP, in varying degrees. Those other factors can include the types of financing, such as leasing, and purchase installment contracts, interest rates, dealer rebates and other dealer and/or manufacturer incentives and/or discounts, amount of sales taxes and/or license and registration fees, and even gas-guzzler taxes, especially starting next year, when a bunch of cars will be re-classified as gas-guzzlers, to the tune of thousands of dollars in tax penalties.
The MSRP is the default initial reference point. That is hardly irrelevant. Of course, it can be said, "who cares what the car price is, just tell me how much it will cost a month to drive it!" There is something to be said for that, but you and I know darned well that there is more to it that that.
But do keep in mind that only 17% of all buyers lease their cars, and leases are more typical at the higher end. The Hyundai Genesis might be leased sometimes, but its price point won't place it in the same category where that will be the most typical scenario, as we find with the genuine HELCs, which are leased MUCH more than the national average, due once again, to the general proportional ratio between MSRP and frequency of leasing.
Umm, The Maxima is not classed as a lux car. The question isn't whether the Hyundai can compete w/ the Maxima, Avalon, and Passats of the world. The question was whether or not real lux car buyers would buy one. People who would buy a G35, TL, A4, S60, 328, C240, 9-3 etc. Hyundai is aiming at the lux buyers, not the Maxima buyers.
Hyundai is aiming at the lux buyers, not the Maxima buyers.
Not the point at all. Point was the Maxima being a flagship sedan.
Genesis will represent Hyundai's latest flagship sedan. The fact that it will offer so much luxury for a non-luxury price... well, that's called competition and good value.
A duplicate post was deleted by the author and by the host about the same time. This resulted in both of the duplicate posts disappearing. Here is the post that the author and I both deleted:
#911 of 911 Re: Hyundai- lux? [tagman] by ljflx Apr 19, 2007 (5:06 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Apr 19, 2007 4:55 pm) Disagree.
On both the G35 and 3 series I asked both salesman again what the lease vs buy of each car is and the answer was 90-10. People are shopping lease payments. I just did. Yes I decided on what cars qualified but once past that I shopped lease costs not MSRP. Did I know the MSRP - sure and I negotiated as much off of it as possible but in the end the final negotiation was on the lease payment not the MSRP. The IS had an attractive MSRP but it's lease was noticably higher than the 3 or G35.
The 17% rule doesn't apply to lux cars as far as I'm concerned. If Hyundai wants to be in the segment they need to fight it out on leases not MSRP. That 17% rule may be right in the universe of cars but lux cars are bought and sold differently. That's my experience. Maybe it's different on the west coast.
Some of you guys seem to keep equating the buyer of the Genesis with today's typical "lux" buyer. You've got it all wrong. The rules change when a luxury car is not offered at a previously understood luxury car price. That means that the price difference suddenly becomes very relevant. After all, that's what all the excitement and publicity is about. The Genesis breaks new ground by offering a luxury car at a price point that's well under the typical expected and historical price tier.
Also, I would not even begin to equate the financials of a guy walking into a BMW dealership to the guy walking into the Hyundai dealership. So, it makes no relevance as to what the BMW salesman told you, What a Hyundai salesman would tell you would be more relevant... cause THAT's your core demographic group!!... plus the additions of some of the next upper fringe that such a car would attract.
"Some of you guys seem to keep equating the buyer of the Genesis with today's typical "lux" buyer. You've got it all wrong. The rules change when a luxury car is not offered at a previously understood luxury car price."
I'm not sure I understand your point. I read that as the lux buyer then won't coonsider the car a player in the lux segment. That means the car moves down to a lower segment and perhaps the buyer at that level will think the Genesis is a better value vs top of the line cars of non lux brands. If that's your point then it has a lot of merit but that's not what Hyundai's seems to be shooting for. But IMO there is a lot of uncertainty that you are going to move Avalon, Passat, Maxima buyers away because many of them already think they are getting great values and enough lux featues derived from their more expensive lux siblings.
After all of this long anticipation, all I can say is... what a major letdown if Edmunds got the numbers right. The only advantage I can see over the conventional competition including the LS 460L is that it will get you into the HOV lanes when driving solo.
That means the car moves down to a lower segment and perhaps the buyer at that level will think the Genesis is a better value vs top of the line cars of non lux brands. If that's your point then it has a lot of merit...
That IS closer to my point. Hyundai can have all the expectations they want, but the Avalon, fully loaded, for example, is in the mid-thirties with its V-6, etc. The Genesis will likely blow that car away, and many of the others in that PRICE category. Now, the question of whether or not an actual lux-car buyer would choose the Genesis is a different one altogether. Only SOME of those buyers would do so. Like I said, the more typical demographics for a Hyundai buyer still apply, with the added upper fringe moving into the scene. I believe that Hyundai's image will be enhanced and they will recieve tremendous publicity, as they already have, for this car, IF it is what we expect it might be. In addition, Hyundai is in the process of improving its SUV line-up as well. These things will move Hyundai up the ladder, image-wise and product-wise, and that will further reinforce the credibility of a luxury car from a maker such as Hyundai.
Without getting too complicated, if someone makes a good product that offers a very noticeable amount of features for a price generally unheard of in the past... well, I think that kind of situation generally spells success.
Samsung became the giant threat to Sony in similar fashion.
Very good point. Until Hyundai can move up resale value or massivly subsidize leases, the price advantage in MSRP is not all that relevant . . . we already did that math a couple weeks ago, it's literally cheaper to lease three 3 series over 6 years than buying a Sonata! At current lease and interest rates anyway.
Um, tell that to VW. The Phaeton was alot less than the competing big sedans from BMW and Benz. PLUS, they had just GIVE AWAY lease deals and couldn't move the car. Price will only get you so far. Pedigree gets you the rest of the way.
The 17% number is for the industry average, where typical 36-mo lease residuals are kept at 45-50%. BMW and MB offer lease residuals at as high as 65%, the picture becomes very different. The overwhelming majority of BMW and MB, especially the 3,5,C and E models, are leased not purchased, precisely because of the subsidy.
So where did the 80% go? I'm not seeing any ULSD station. California can't possibly be burnig 80% of total diesel production in this country.
By the end of 2010, the problem no longer exists.
That's an optimism that I can not share. Regular gas routinely contain 5% or more water . . . just through normal contamination through the underground storage facility. If ULSD is mixed with as littl as 5% "regular" diesel, it's bye-bye to the fancy emission control in Bluetec.
Hyundai can have all the expectations they want, but the Avalon, fully loaded, for example, is in the mid-thirties with its V-6, etc. The Genesis will likely blow that car away, and many of the others in that PRICE category.
According to this month's Motortrend, Hyundai's internal target for the Genesis is the mid-lux category, as well as outside players like the 300, Lucerne, etc. It will have NAV, heated and cooled seats, and a few other tricks. Power for the V8 is going to be "well over" 300hp, and its 6-speed automatic (which Acura and Infiniti still don't have) is the brilliant ZF. The long wheelbase also means it won't have the cramped space of the GS and RL. Pricing is going to range from $30-35K. Perhaps most impressive is its going to weigh around 3700lbs. which is a lot less than most of the mid-sizers.
Whether it will actually steal any sales from the mid-lux class remains to be seen, but I think Toyota, GM, Chrysler, and the rest of the mid-30s crowd should be very worried.
"Well if you buy any SUV for driving dynamics you're an idiot."
Frequently borne out by the incredibly risky and dangerously aggressive twisting and turning of these vehicles I see every day.
I asked my neighbor why she got a RAV4 and not a sedan, since she lives alone and doesn't have much stuff. She looked at me like I must have recently arrived on the planet and said, "Why, because it is so much safer!" :sick:
I'm thinking X3 for my next vehicle since it is compact enough to handle almost as well as a 3 Series sedan and has a nice 71 cubic feet of rear space ( more than the X5). Even so, I would not attempt some of my 545i moves with the X3.
Comments
You've got me worried! If I recall you're in Rye or Harrison or thereabouts? I'm on a ski vacation this week (Lake Louise) and my house is maybe 10 miles from you. We had a tiny amount of seepage in a storm in I believe the fall of 99, not long after we moved in. I wonder what I'll find when we return home!
I guess a Genesis is not a bad idea from the financial perspective.
BTW, as of last night the Bronx River Parkway was still closed from the Sprain Parkway to Scarsdale. Also Bronxville High School was still closed yesterday because of water damage and Mammaroneck took a severe beating. Greenwich also got blitzed. They say this is the worst rain storm we have had in about 125 years.
Obviously VW has a limit.
With the Azera already challenging the Lexus LS, according to Hyundai, where does the Genesis fit in? V6 Genesis especially?
I don't see it, as a Hyundai. A business/marketing plan is hard to make for it.
It would be a nice car to start a new marque with, but Hyundai is still in limbo on that. :confuse:
DrFill
Let's get some facts straight here, so that none of us consider to underestimate this company called Hyundai.
In a very short amount of time, by comparison to many others, Hyundai, now the world's 6th largest auto maker, has managed to sell 104,205 units in just the first quarter of this year. With the introductin of some new models, Hyundai is on track to sell close to a half BILLION cars this year in the United States.
I have little problem seeing them take their image upscale by one notch. The caliber of their other newer vehicles, especially their newest SUVs, will support their upward momentum with regards to their image.
Overall, it is impossible to say that Hyundai is not on a roll. And be clear that I am not suddenly trying to become a Hyundai fan... far from it. I just can not ignore the achievements of this company, and the amazing way this particular Korean company has managed to gain such a foothold in the US market.
I expect the Genesis to be a nice flagship for the company, and it will represent them well, IMO... and further improve their image.
TagMan
Now as far as where the Genesis will slot, maybe it will usurp the Azera? Or they'll build them both and let the Azera take on the Avalon and the Genesis take on the Chrysler 300 or upmarket to the BMW 5/7 series? In any case, I look forward to seeing it and possibly test driving one.
LOL. I absolutely meant to post half a MILLION... It is the sales target for Hyundai this year, namely to approach 500,000 units, which is, of course, a half million. Please excuse the typo, and thanks for catching it so quickly... and humorously!!!
(Small typo = Huge error.)
TagMan
link title
TagMan
It's a joke, but it's a good one.
link title
TagMan
That does sound like a big number, but keep in mind Toyota moves close to a half million Camrys. Combine that with Corolla, and you're talking 700 thousand+.
I know its easy to compare Genesis with the failure that was the VW Phaeton, but as with Mazda's failure, its not quite that simple. First, Hyundai has no A8 to cannibalize sales of its own car. Second, they certainly aren't going to price it anywhere near the competition. VW thought they could get $80K+. On top of that, the Phaeton really wasn't a great car. It weighed about 8,000lbs. and its electronics were obsolete before the first one rolled off the assembly line.
If the Genesis is a competitive car, they at least have a shot.
You and I seem to be on the same page regarding the Genesis, and some of your keen insight adds greater depth to the compelling argument that favors the car's potential success.
TagMan
We seem to like to dance around the root question regarding Hyundai/Genesis:
How much are YOU willing to pay to drive a mighty Hyundai?
(Excuse the freestyle rhyme, thur.
I tap out at $25k.
DrFill
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Like you said, they need a luxury brand. Toyota's luxury cars would be dead in the water if they hadn't gotten their own brand; it would be sales suicide to sell a likely-$40,000 Hyundai. How about making the actual brand into "Genesis?" Although it's similar in execution to the name Infiniti, it could work. Sounds kind of fancy. But there's no creativity any more- when people used their last names for cars, like Mercedes-Benz, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Audi (Latin translation of Horch)...
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Thanks!
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Oh definitely. Hyundai still has plenty of work left to do though, and they seriously need to work on the positioning of Kia. There's too much GM style overlap there.
We seem to like to dance around the root question regarding Hyundai/Genesis:
How much are YOU willing to pay to drive a mighty Hyundai?
Audi sold a lot more A8s than VW sold Phaetons. If I were going to buy a Genesis, it would need to have better materials quality than Acura, and better handling than Lexus. No excuses on the electronics either. If Hyundai can't bring NAV with traffic monitoring, bluetooth, a high-end stereo and all the rest, no thanks. I don't get why current Hyundais are so low tech on the inside when they come from the second most technically advanced country in the world.
But you ain't heard that from me.
DrFill
The same for the Passat. Very nice car, but for the money they want for a well equipped one, why not just by an A6 3.2 for about the same and still have more equipment?
It is also prestige, legacy and (unfortunately) cost. In other words a car is not a luxury vehicle unless it costs enough to weed the average buyer (me).
Hyundai may end up making an outstanding vehicle with lots of features but it will simply a great value car for a certain buyer group. MB, Lexus and BMW buyers are simply not going to switch to Hyundai. There is no 'cachet'.
Buyers do not buy luxury with value in mind, they buy with exclusivity and 'look at what I can buy' in mind.
Just my opinion.
Get your point and you're right but it needs to be rephrased to "buyers will seek value but only in brands they consider luxury brands in the first place". If a brand doesn't have that signature - ala VW with the Phaeton - they will pass it up in droves. The Hyundai Genesis will not capture lux buyers fancy. A Genesis something or other has a much better chance but that is a hell of an investment and also brings to bear my point yesterday - Infiniti and Acura are already way up the totem pole and are struggling to go higher so where's the room for Hyundai to fit in. I don't see it happening and the car is more destined to be to Hyundai what the Avalon and Passat are to Toyota and VW.
There are enough people clamoring for no tech, just car. And there are a plenty of people who don't like squandering money on cars and features they consider frivolous. They would rather get from point A to B and put the extra money somewhere else. And then there are people who simply can't afford expensive cars. The market is there for this type of product and I don't understand why some people are trying to perceive them as something they are not. If Hyundai is to get its foot into higher-end products, it will be a slow evolution. Simple function, reliability and value was step one. It remains to be seen what will follow.
Although the Genesis may be a perfectly fine automobile, it will take a long time to earn their way into the lofty level of BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, etc. Has anyone here actually desired a Hyundai luxury car? It will take time...
Different deomgraphics are at work here. The BMW, Lexus, Audi, Mercedes crowd is not likely to compare and shop the Genesis. But consider that the $30K - $40K market is much bigger than the established high-end lux market. That demographic group will have a new value lux car to consider called Genesis that will offer a ton of bang for their hard-earned buck. Never underestimate the "affordability" factor. After all, why do so many folks gobble up so many Hyundais to begin with? So, now a large group of folks will see a genuine luxury car that is actually affordable to them. They will buy it. And drive it to Wal-Mart, where America shops.
TagMan
Too much competition from Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Lexus, lesser bimmers and Benzes.
People shooping near luxury still want a lux nameplate.
Plus, you'd still have to service the thing at a Hyundai dealership, and it would still say Hyundai on the trunklid.
With each of the premium luxury brands offering cars significantly less than $400/mo (okay, perhaps not Lexus, but both MB and BMW certainly do), none of them is going to "weed out" anyone. If a person can afford a roof over his/her head, he/she can afford a MB, BMW or (to a somewhat lesser extent) Lexus. I remember the days when a loaded Accord V6 cost more than $400/mo, only a decade ago. What's really going on is "luxury" in the minds' eye of the would-be buyer. Luxury because it was once upon a time unattainable; if it's always unattainable, the car brand may as well be dead or owned by a mass merchant, e.g. Rolls-Royce (owned by BMW) and Ferrari (owned by Fiat).
Therein lies the crux of the issue. Luxury brand image is generation-dependent. Chrysler was a luxury brand to the WWII generation, but by the time of my generation, who are currently in their early 30's, Chrysler is a minivan brand. Conversely, to the WWII generation, BMW was a motorcyle and tricycle bubblecar brand, to us it's a legit luxury brand. MB used to stand for stout engineering prowess for practically a century (aside from glib comments on poor MB engine quality by American GI's in WWII), but nowadays the consumers are catching on to its quality declinet after over a decade of consumer disappointment. Brand images do change over time, slowly but certainly do.
No one can afford to sit on their laurels, not MB, not BMW, and certainly not Lexus. The Lexus success story IMHO had a lot to do with luck (not to belittle the outstanding products they deliver or the engineering/marketting talent behind them all): the economic downtown of the early 90's certainly helped Lexus when traditional MB buyers looked for alternatives; the decline of American auto quality of the 80's already made Toyota a household name for reliability (contrary to their 60's and early 70's image of shoddy cars); the fact that MB dropped the ball in the 90's really left the field wide open and propelled Lexus to market pre-eminence.
It's doubtful Hyundai can get that lucky. But hey, lightening could strike twice :-)
Exactly! The market place is still a relatively efficient one, a place where buyers still care about value and welcome new entrants that deliver value in spades. Frivolous entries like the VW Phaetom on the other hand is a dead end.
No Hyundai dealership is going to treat you like a Lexus, Mercedes or other lux dealer will.
The reason Lux stores do well is that they hire people who take care of their customers, and are wel paid for doing so.
Hyundai stores simply don't have the revenue to hire those people, or to give lux customers the experience they want.
It's like saying the KC Royals are going to start competing w/ the Yankees or Red Sox. They just can't do it.
Man, you don't get it.
Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, BMW buyers are not the same demographic group that will buy the Hyundai. If I'm looking at Mercedes and Lexus, I'm not even going to set foot in a Hyundai dealership.
Heard of the "Maxima"? What has that car been doing in a Nissan dealership, for crying out loud? When it first came out, there was not even a hint of Infiniti for many, many years while Nissan sold the Maxima year after year. It was basically their flagship sedan.
So, now Hyundai has raised the bar on their flagship sedan. That's a bad thing? Of course not! It's a good thing to improve their image as well as offer even better and more competitive products than before.
Is there a Wal-Mart on Rodeo Drive? Different market.
So, why worry that high-end lux buyers won't look at the Genesis? Of course not! It doesn't matter! They aren't the Genesis market, anyway.
Hyundai dealerships don't need to brew expresso and serve fruit platters to their customers. A smiling, polite and friendly service writer... and donuts & coffee will be more than enough.
TagMan
Len,
That is NOT a fact! And far from it.
Be careful here. This argument of brightness's has been pounded to death in the past. You need to know some FACTS here before you get suckered into this idea that is not based upon real-life data.
You certainly must recognize that the frequency of leasing generally rises proportionaly with the price of the car.
The FACTUAL percentage of leases is currently running about 17 percent of all auto transactions in this country... that's right!... only 17%. Look it up if you don't believe me. You can confirm it on the Edmund's site.
The MSRP of an automobile is relevant... not meaningless. And, without any doubt, there are other factors sometimes in place that can cast a shadow on the MSRP, in varying degrees. Those other factors can include the types of financing, such as leasing, and purchase installment contracts, interest rates, dealer rebates and other dealer and/or manufacturer incentives and/or discounts, amount of sales taxes and/or license and registration fees, and even gas-guzzler taxes, especially starting next year, when a bunch of cars will be re-classified as gas-guzzlers, to the tune of thousands of dollars in tax penalties.
The MSRP is the default initial reference point. That is hardly irrelevant. Of course, it can be said, "who cares what the car price is, just tell me how much it will cost a month to drive it!" There is something to be said for that, but you and I know darned well that there is more to it that that.
But do keep in mind that only 17% of all buyers lease their cars, and leases are more typical at the higher end. The Hyundai Genesis might be leased sometimes, but its price point won't place it in the same category where that will be the most typical scenario, as we find with the genuine HELCs, which are leased MUCH more than the national average, due once again, to the general proportional ratio between MSRP and frequency of leasing.
TagMan
The question isn't whether the Hyundai can compete w/ the Maxima, Avalon, and Passats of the world.
The question was whether or not real lux car buyers would buy one.
People who would buy a G35, TL, A4, S60, 328, C240, 9-3 etc.
Hyundai is aiming at the lux buyers, not the Maxima buyers.
Not the point at all. Point was the Maxima being a flagship sedan.
Genesis will represent Hyundai's latest flagship sedan. The fact that it will offer so much luxury for a non-luxury price... well, that's called competition and good value.
TagMan
#911 of 911 Re: Hyundai- lux? [tagman] by ljflx Apr 19, 2007 (5:06 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Apr 19, 2007 4:55 pm)
Disagree.
On both the G35 and 3 series I asked both salesman again what the lease vs buy of each car is and the answer was 90-10. People are shopping lease payments. I just did. Yes I decided on what cars qualified but once past that I shopped lease costs not MSRP. Did I know the MSRP - sure and I negotiated as much off of it as possible but in the end the final negotiation was on the lease payment not the MSRP. The IS had an attractive MSRP but it's lease was noticably higher than the 3 or G35.
The 17% rule doesn't apply to lux cars as far as I'm concerned. If Hyundai wants to be in the segment they need to fight it out on leases not MSRP. That 17% rule may be right in the universe of cars but lux cars are bought and sold differently. That's my experience. Maybe it's different on the west coast.
Also, I would not even begin to equate the financials of a guy walking into a BMW dealership to the guy walking into the Hyundai dealership. So, it makes no relevance as to what the BMW salesman told you, What a Hyundai salesman would tell you would be more relevant... cause THAT's your core demographic group!!... plus the additions of some of the next upper fringe that such a car would attract.
TagMan
I'm not sure I understand your point. I read that as the lux buyer then won't coonsider the car a player in the lux segment. That means the car moves down to a lower segment and perhaps the buyer at that level will think the Genesis is a better value vs top of the line cars of non lux brands. If that's your point then it has a lot of merit but that's not what Hyundai's seems to be shooting for. But IMO there is a lot of uncertainty that you are going to move Avalon, Passat, Maxima buyers away because many of them already think they are getting great values and enough lux featues derived from their more expensive lux siblings.
That IS closer to my point. Hyundai can have all the expectations they want, but the Avalon, fully loaded, for example, is in the mid-thirties with its V-6, etc. The Genesis will likely blow that car away, and many of the others in that PRICE category. Now, the question of whether or not an actual lux-car buyer would choose the Genesis is a different one altogether. Only SOME of those buyers would do so. Like I said, the more typical demographics for a Hyundai buyer still apply, with the added upper fringe moving into the scene. I believe that Hyundai's image will be enhanced and they will recieve tremendous publicity, as they already have, for this car, IF it is what we expect it might be. In addition, Hyundai is in the process of improving its SUV line-up as well. These things will move Hyundai up the ladder, image-wise and product-wise, and that will further reinforce the credibility of a luxury car from a maker such as Hyundai.
Without getting too complicated, if someone makes a good product that offers a very noticeable amount of features for a price generally unheard of in the past... well, I think that kind of situation generally spells success.
Samsung became the giant threat to Sony in similar fashion.
TagMan
The Phaeton was alot less than the competing big sedans from BMW and Benz.
PLUS, they had just GIVE AWAY lease deals and couldn't move the car.
Price will only get you so far. Pedigree gets you the rest of the way.
So where did the 80% go? I'm not seeing any ULSD station. California can't possibly be burnig 80% of total diesel production in this country.
By the end of 2010, the problem no longer exists.
That's an optimism that I can not share. Regular gas routinely contain 5% or more water . . . just through normal contamination through the underground storage facility. If ULSD is mixed with as littl as 5% "regular" diesel, it's bye-bye to the fancy emission control in Bluetec.
According to this month's Motortrend, Hyundai's internal target for the Genesis is the mid-lux category, as well as outside players like the 300, Lucerne, etc. It will have NAV, heated and cooled seats, and a few other tricks. Power for the V8 is going to be "well over" 300hp, and its 6-speed automatic (which Acura and Infiniti still don't have) is the brilliant ZF. The long wheelbase also means it won't have the cramped space of the GS and RL. Pricing is going to range from $30-35K. Perhaps most impressive is its going to weigh around 3700lbs. which is a lot less than most of the mid-sizers.
Whether it will actually steal any sales from the mid-lux class remains to be seen, but I think Toyota, GM, Chrysler, and the rest of the mid-30s crowd should be very worried.
Frequently borne out by the incredibly risky and dangerously aggressive twisting and turning of these vehicles I see every day.
I asked my neighbor why she got a RAV4 and not a sedan, since she lives alone and doesn't have much stuff. She looked at me like I must have recently arrived on the planet and said, "Why, because it is so much safer!" :sick:
I'm thinking X3 for my next vehicle since it is compact enough to handle almost as well as a 3 Series sedan and has a nice 71 cubic feet of rear space ( more than the X5). Even so, I would not attempt some of my 545i moves with the X3.
I have decided against any medium to large SUV.