Luxury Lounge

tagman

The 17% number is for the industry average.

I've already posted that.

The thing you must consider here is the demographic group that will buy the Genesis. You actually believe that the same car-shoppers that are visiting the Mercedes store will visit the Hyundai store? That's crazy, IMO.

I also posted that the frequency of leasing is generally proportional to the price of the car. So, if you understand that, then you would realize that it makes more sense that the BMW and Mercedes Benz vehicles are leased much more often than the lower end cars.

Now, further consider the purchasing power of the average individual that visits a Hyundai dealership. Hyundai is doing this right. They know that their name is not going to yield them a berth next to the likes of Lexus or Mercedes Benz.

Also, I suggest you take Lexusguy's post more seriously and you will see a more revealing picture regarding this demographic group, and the cars that this group will generally consider for purchase. Within that group the Genesis has a great shot. Beyond their established group, Hyundai has intentions of reaching towards the mid-lux crowd, not the HELC crowd. And yes, the terrific ZF tranny and a 300+ HP V-8 will be just a part of the specs. And seriously consider the significance of the light weight. A 300 HP 3-series weighs about the same.

TagMan

drfill

The V6 Genesis plays in the Avalons backyard, upper 20's to mid 30's. the V8 would start around where the 300C is.

I don't see a future fighting either.

DrFill

cdnpinhead

Nicely put.

All I want is a car, but my short list of requirements (RWD, manual, room for a bicycle inside) puts me in the upscale market. I don't mind. I can afford it, up to a point.

That said, the posturing in this "class" is a wonder to behold (present company excepted).

tagman

Doc,
I'm not sure I understand your post. But, the lesser (V-6) Genesis will be the price leader. And considering the low weight, the V-6 will be legitimate. But the real value will be the V-8 for mid-30's with it's over 300 ponies and torque as well.
No matter what we all say, the outcome will be known, and some of us (perhaps me, or perhaps you) will be wrong about this car. We'll just have to see. You were the one calling for an early prediction. And, in my first reply to you I told you I reserve the right to change my mind. But I must say that the more we sling this Genesis thing around, the more I seem to find myself convinced that it's going to be a success. (Heck, I even like its name. )

TagMan

anthonyp

Hi H

Don`t you still have another year to go?? A toyota , smallish suv was next to me today and I think it may be something to look at...Looked pretty sturdy, and I wonder if any suv really is worth buying for anything but quality...Tony

tagman

I'm thinking X3 for my next vehicle since it is compact enough to handle almost as well as a 3 Series sedan...

Is that really the case? Does the X3 handle almost as well as a 3-series sedan?

TagMan

hpowders

Hi Tony. Yes. One year to go. Never too early to revise the list. No HELC's on the list anymore, unfortunately, which is why there has been very little input from me here.

Crossed the MDX Sport off the list as well as the X5. Looks like the greatly improved, refreshed X3 with the fabulous comfort seats, like I have in the 545i, is most likely what I would get. No big bulky SUV's.

hpowders

I have not driven one, but the reviews say it almost does handle as well as a 3 series sedan, but not so deep down, I know it can't. But I have to compromise.

I will check one out within the next 6 months (without the sport package, which the consensus of reviews maintains is "punishing").

Very interested in the 71 cubic feet-should be enough for me.
More rear space than the X5, if you can believe it.

Glad to read the wife likes the MDX. I haven't read a bad review yet on that vehicle. I will drive one just out of curiosity. But it's a bit too big for me and not a very good value from a leasing perspective.

The X3 (the way I want it) would have an MSRP of about $3000 more than the MDX Sport. I know I can lease the X3 for about $160 less per month than the Acura and a 2 year lease on the MDX is not even available.

tagman

The gloves are off, and I've stepped out of the ring. I'm no longer arguing on behalf of the Genesis. At this point I'll comment on it if the occassion arises... but no heavy argument like I attempted recently here on this forum.

I'll thank Lexusguy, who's opinions generally carry lots of credibiity with me, for his insightful posts on the Genesis. And I'll also thank Designman for his positive comments regarding the Genesis.

The rest of you have worn me out, :sick: and either I'm right about my perspective, or I'm somehow missing something really negative about the car's potential. :confuse: But either way, I'm done with it for a while. Thanks for the go-around.

TagMan

tagman

Funny you would mention the X3, because just today I was wondering what I should drive when I'm not driving the Carrera.

I recently picked up one of those FJ Cruisers, and while it is a good utility vehicle, it isn't really much more than that... and it turns out that the kids seem to get carsick in the back, because the second row's side window only extends about halfway back, and apparently they sit back there without a reasonable view out the side, and thus... carsickness sets in. And... it handles like a dog. :sick:

So... I'm thinking about something in '08 as a second vehicle for myself. I've pretty much ruled out the BMW 3-series convertible, because I've already got a convertible with the Carrera, and I really need a second vehicle with cargo space.

I heard that Mercedes has something like an MLK coming out... a slightly smaller SUV, but I don't know when. VW has a Tiguan coming out, but I'm not sure about it. The new LR2 sounds interesting, but it's got a Volvo engine.

That's why today, all of a sudden, I thought about the X3. And then there was your post saying that it handles like a 3-series sedan. And THAT got my attention.

So, I'm kind of in the same boat as you. But, I'd probably consider a small SUV with a diesel if it were available.

TagMan

drfill

In closing, Genesis is, at this point, an exercise, a concept. It may never come to pass. It could just be brought about to guage public reaction to an idea.

Hyundai DESPERATELY wants to change it's image. Or foster a new one.

Being undecided on a course for this car, all that can be referenced is history. The history of such things is very grim.

I oppose bringing up BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus against Hyundai because it only forces a Hyundai to jump over a bar it has been unable to touch. I haven't seen the comany walk a great length. Now marathons are it's forte? :confuse:

Many companies make many solid cars. Cars worth buying. The ability of a company to build an image, a personna, an expectation for a car that is clear, genuine, and attainable is what makes the difference between success and failure, regardless of sales numbers or profit margins.

Building a great car is one thing.

Producing a great environment for the car, and it's owner, is quite another.

Talent and ambition are incredible attributes. But touch, timing, and intuition, are what seperates the leaders from the followers.

DrFill

brightness04

(I'd suggest let's not use second-person pronoun in any way that is not compimentary during this conversation)

I will put my point more clearly: 17% is for industry average, not luxury segment. If Hyundai aspires to the industry average, it would build more Sonotas. Genesis shows Hyundai's aspiration for the luxury segment; that aspiration is why Genesis is even planned.

Frequency of leasing is not necessarily proportional to the price of the car per se. For example, Lexus lease rates are much lower than BMW or MB, despite price of entry for the volume movers at BMW and MB's are actually lower priced than those from Lexus. What really decides lease to buy ratio comes down to two factors:

(1) Cost differential to consumer; if the manufacture subsidizes one form of ownership (time ownership vs. titled ownership) over the other, price one form significantly lower than the other, then of course most consumers would take the financially advantageous route;

(2) Price gap between trade-in and used car retail, plus the time value of the likely first "owner" in selling the vehicle vs. a guaranteed sell-back price.

Point (2) above was the reason why historically your point regarding the correlation is correct. However, currently point(1) is swamping point(2) in the market segment where BMW and MB are playing. What is that segment? Well, since the volume leaders at BMW and MB are priced at $400/mo give or take $100, a $25-35,000 car from Hyundai or Chrysler would run smack into that price range. It doesn't really matter whether Chrysler or Hyundai intended to compete against BMW or MB; if MB and BMW are willing to let large volumes of their cars go at a price point that is essentially equivalent to $25-35k, heck in some cases even lower as we have shown before a series of one, two, and three 3series leases over 2,4, and 6 years would beat buying a Sonata on cost alone, then Hyundai and Chrysler will find their upward mobile aspirations blocked, at least for the time being. Chrysler 300 received raving reviews when it was introduced, but within less than a year, it's back to discounting and rental fleet specials.

Sure, a Genesis can find market acceptance if it is priced like an Accord . . . but why bother going through the trouble of building a V8 RWD if that's all it aspires to be? Even Ford got sick of the CrownVic business.

2001gs430

Designman, I read the article on Edmund too and I have exactly the same feeling. The LS600h L does not seem to have any major advantage over the regular car, so I am not sure how that would enhance Lexus's image.

On a slightly different topic, I brought my car in for service yesterday and took the chance to test drive the RX400h. It was a short, 15 min drive. I really like the smoothness, ML stereo and the seamless integration of the Hybrid tech. I could felt a slight vibration when the ICE engine starts/stops when going at low speed. I think the steering is a bit too light for me.
Overall, it felt as good or better than my GS while providing more useful cargo space and better mileage. Now only if it has rear sliding doors...

ms09

There is also a new audi small suv coming.

Saw the first official pics yesterday.

So u guys r sayig that x3 handles almost as good as 3 series

What abt the new x5 ?how good does it handle.

hpowders

There are rumors of an X3 diesel next year.

I notice C&D was not enthusiastic about the MB E320 BlueTec in the May 07 issue. They called it "slower than it feels" finding the gasoline E350 "livlier and feels lighter." They found the E320 BlueTec "slower than the E350 in every respect." Seems like the E350 is more fun to drive than the E320.

They obtained 29 mpg combined with the BlueTec but noted they would have to drive 49,000 miles to recoup the cost of diesel fuel over the gasoline (given $2.43 a gallon for diesel and $2.39 for premium gasoline at the time of the test).

hpowders

I drove a 2005 X5 and believe me, you could feel that is one heavy vehicle-I had to slow down to make turns I would take for granted in a 3-Series.

What bothers me is the X5 is so impractical; it is pure status, little more. They give you a laughable third row in which maybe a yorkie puppy could fit and the rear space with the second and third rows folded is a bit less than that in the X3.

I sat in the new X5 at my dealers 2 months ago and was not impressed. Nothing jumped out at me telling me this was one expensive ute.

For me the X3 is the perfect compromise: small enough to make its handling recognizable as BMW-worthy, functional with its 71 cubic feet, no third row, no iDrive, a key for starting the ignition, no stupid card that one has to insert and press a button to start the engine as in the X5.

The X5 looks better than the X3. I think most people would agree with that, but from what I read, it seems BMW did a fine job upgrading the X3 from what it was last year-nicer leather and interior materials and a great inline 6 engine.

If the X3 is practical and drives reasonably close to a 3 Series and I can lease in the $500's, count me in.

I will drive one in about 6 months and if I agree with the reviews, I may propose a trade out of the 545i at that time, since X3's are not big movers at Florida BMW dealers.
I can surely use that 71 cubic feet of space.

tayl0rd

... But I must say that the more we sling this Genesis thing around, the more I seem to find myself convinced that it's going to be a success. (Heck, I even like its name. )

Same here. And if they come out with a Sega edition, I'm all over it!! :P

ms09

I drove a 2005 X5 and believe me, you could feel that is one heavy vehicle-I had to slow down to make turns

I sat in the new X5 at my dealers 2 months ago and was not impressed. Nothing jumped out at me telling me this was one expensive ute.

SO WHAT UR SAYING IS THAT THE OLD X5 HANDING IS REALLY NOT THAT GOOD AND NOT A FUN VEHICLE TO DRIVE, BUT U DID NOT DRIVE THE NEW X5 RITE? SO U DONT KNOW HOW THE NEW 1 HANDLES BUT IM SURE IT WILL BE A LOT MORE IMPROVEMENT FOR THE NEW X5

tagman

I read that review of the E350 vs. BlueTec on the plane. I didn't find it quite that harsh, but I did get the impression that the diesel wasn't as spirited.

If there was no E350 to compare it to, it would be terrific in it OWN right, so that comp doesn't bother me. There is (almost) always something better to make any car seem less than it is, if you know what I mean. You can take any great car and compare it to a greater one, and then the great car seems, well... not as great.

TagMan

hpowders

No. I have not driven an X5 recently, nor do I have any desire to do so. You can't contradict physics. The X5 is one heavy vehicle. I would expect its handling, therefore, to be at the very bottom of all the BMW vehicles. It may handle better than all SUV's except the Cayenne, but that's when you compare it to SUV's.
Any BMW sedan will handle better than an X5.
You don't think a $40,000 328i sedan can't run rings around a $60,000 Porsche Cayenne?

One has to take the term "sport" with a big grain of salt in SUV's.

tagman

Let me clarify again.

The 17% industry average wasn't posted until I posted it. I did so, because lj had mentioned that 90% of buyers were looking at payments, and that MSRP was meaningless.

I emphasized the true relevance of MSRP, and indicated it's actual relevance in real terms, which makes it a far cry more than meaningless. I also indicated some of the real-life factors that cast a shadow on MSRP and dilute its meaning. Dilution is different from removal.

I posted that the 17% lease figure was an industry average, and it is not the rule in every segment. This is because there is a GENERAL, NOT SPECIFIC, correlation between the frequency of leasing and the price tier of the vehicles. Upper price-tier vehicles are, on average, leased much more often than lower price-tier vehicles. But this is not specific, as we know from the leases offered at premium marque dealerships on their lower line models as well as their upper line models.

As Lj recently pointed out with his recent aquisition of his G35, there was more than the lease figure to consider in comparing the Infiniti to the BMW 3-series. Yes the payment was a primary factor, but ultimately so was the car itself, which in his case, was the final deciding factor.

So, it stands to reason that lease incentives which can essentially move a higher tiered vehicle into a lower competitive arena, and give it an advantage over those lower tiered cars, are only part of the equation when it comes to making the purchase decision. Ultimately, the car itself is a large, VERY large factor, even if it doesn't have the very best payment.

Again, keep in mind that the vast majority of buyers (a whopping 83%) are not leasing vehicles, and that as the price escalates on a car, the likelihood of leasing increases... to the point that the majority of vehicles are leased when the price-scale arrives at the upper crust.

The interesting variable in this is that as we deal with premium marques, we are also more likely to see a higher percentage of leasing even on their lesser priced vehicles, the 3-series and G35 being prime examples.

TagMan

tagman

One has to take the term "sport" with a big grain of salt in SUV's.

Bullseye.

TagMan

hpowders

The C&D review was a bit disappointing to me after all the ecstatic European reviews I recall reading.

hpowders

Too bad many of their drivers don't take the physics of these vehicles a bit more respectfully.

As I said, if my next vehicle is an X3, there is no way I take some of the chances I have been taking with the 545i.

drfill

Are pretty sweet!

Much more aggressive.

DrFill

volvomax

IF Hyundai's intention is to challenge the other mass market car co's, Toyota, Honda, GM, Chrysler, than the Genesis will probably be successful.
If Hyundai is planning on challenging Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Volvo, M-B, BMW it will be the same kind of failure that the Phaeton was.
Lux buyers buy the aura of the brand as much as the spec of the car, even near lux buyers want that aura, which is why G35's, #28, and C240's sell.

designman

That ain't it. They're only illustrations.

ms09

It may handle better than all SUV's except the Cayenne, but that's when you compare it to SUV's.

As a SUV is the best, which handles the best ur saying cayenne is first? and x5 is second?

anthonyp

Hi Doc

I thought the pictures to be nice also...The E for the most part has been a nice car...I truly was sorry that the ls-h, seemed to have so much weight that it hurt the fuel economy...It would be nice to have another choice in the higher range...I personally like a heavier car most of the time as it just has a more comfortable ride---just going slowly or a streight line...I would see little point in getting one at this time, but maybe somewhere in the future...I really shouldn`t be even expressing those thoughts as I plan on keeping the A8 another year and a half, or longer if nothing comes along that ups the anty...Tony

hpowders

Comparing SUV's to SUV's, from all I have read, the consensus is the Cayenne handles best and the X's and the MDX Sport are tied for second.

C&D had a $50,000 luxury SUV comparo in the May '07 issue and maintained the X5 6 and the MDX Sport were best in handling of the vehicles tested-not a difficult feat when the SUV's tested included those from MB, VW, LR, Cadillac, Volvo and Lexus. The Cayenne was not included in the comparo.

Everything I have read praises the apparantly successfully refreshed 2007 X3 in handling also.

It would be nice to see a 6 cylinder X5 pitted against an X3.
I would love to see that comparo from a major auto magazine.

In sum, it looks like SUV's from the great German manufacturers BMW and Porsche, joined by a very fine effort from the non-German Acura are the best-handling SUV's.

None of them will handle like a fine sport sedan, however, such as my beautiful, bordering on HELC-dom, Bangle 545i; its titanium silver metallic paint glistening in the Florida sun, ready to do battle with the bored and the foolish. :shades:

brightness04

I've got great news for you: the lease cost, with no money down, for X3 is much much less than $500/mo. Check out the incredible lease residual on the 24mo deals -- in the 70's! You can get away with amortizing only 12-15% of the MSRP in two years if you bother to go with Euro Delivery. That means an MSRP buyer would take 12 years to catch up with you on money spent alone, when you are finishing up on your 6th brand new X3, assuming he pays cash and don't care about lost interest on $40+k over 12 years; if interest is taken into consideration, that would be another $40k at current 5-6% and using the rule of 72 over 12 years. Even with local dealership lease, the typical advertised deals work out to be $400/mo or lower, with no money down. Automatic tranny is a no charge option. BMW is practically giving them away as if it were a $25k car. Go get yourself one arleady :-)

BTW, I had no idea X5 cargo volume is that small, practically the same as X3. You are right, why bother :-( I can't help wonder where that 191" length went.

drfill

who do you think they're playing against?

Putting a lot of pressure on this car, and their marque.

DrFill

hpowders

Yes. Thanks, brightness! There are great deals on the X3 right now.

So long as people foolishly wish to be seen in the biggest and the baddest, I expect to make my usual killing, this time on the lil' ol' cute ute that nobody wants, the X3. Whether it's in the stock market or the car-leasing market, the herd mentality creates opportunity for me.

I do expect to pay less than $500 a month. I can't wait to pit every Florida dealer against each other over the ute that nobody wants and dealers will be desperate to unload, yet has more cargo space and probably handles better than its ludicrously overpriced big brother.

What a great country!

ms09

luxury SUV comparo in the May '07 issue and maintained the X5 6

What did u mean by x5 6 ? is it the new x5 or the old 1?

every1 says cayenne is the best handling suv i guess it is true.

Why do u like the x3 so much why not go for the new cayenne.

Which sedan do u think got the best performance the best handling, i think all the bmw's?i always heard bmw's handle great.

lexusguy

Comparing SUV's to SUV's, from all I have read, the consensus is the Cayenne handles best and the X's and the MDX Sport are tied for second.

I've driven the V8 non turbo Cayenne, I didn't think the handling was anything special. Its an enormously heavy lummox, and there's nothing that big wheels or a fancy suspension can do to fix that. A Cayenne is a FX45 with an 800lb. passenger.

lexusguy

Which sedan do u think got the best performance the best handling, i think all the bmw's?i always heard bmw's handle great.

If we're including ALL sedans here, the Mitsubishi Lancer EVO will kill any BMW. Just luxury sedans, I'd go with the Audi RS4.

hpowders

6 as in 6 cylinder. The X5 comes in a 3.0 liter 6 cylinder and a 4.8 liter 8 cylinder. The X3 only comes in a 6 cylinder.

I go where the value is. Porsche may be the worst manufacturer in the world with leasing terms. Sky high. Therefore, I would not be interested in the Cayenne. I could get an X3, nicely equipped for $400 less per month than a comparably equipped Cayenne. That's a lot of Kona beans where I come from!

For great handling at over $30,000 but under $40,000 MSRP, the 328i can't be beat. The Infiniti G35 is no slouch either. For a bit less money, I have found the Subaru Impreza and the Mazdaspeed 3 a lot of fun.

The smaller the vehicle, the better the handling. The 3 Series handles better than the 5 Series. The X3 should handle better than the X5. The Porsche 911 should handle better than the Panamera.

None of the HELC listed at the top of the thread will handle better than their cheaper entry-level luxury little brothers. You want luxury and status, forget about having a lot of fun.

Check out the facial expression of someone driving a 7 Series or an S Class: It's DOUR!

Then check me out: Sooo HAPPY!! :shades:

designman

Putting a lot of pressure on this car, and their marque.

Are you talking about Hyundai? I don't think so. They have nothing to lose, everything to gain. The slightest mention of their name in the same sentence with luxury brands combined with their price will go a long long way in selling cars. Where have we seen this before?

houdini1

Picturing you driving that X3 reminds me of a cartoon I saw once that showed a snail riding on the back on a turtle...the snail was yelling "Wheeeeeee".

tagman

I'm paying very close attention to every word you post about the X3, because next model year I'm going to want to get some sort of SUV or XUV (or is it CUV?), as a backup to the Carrera when I'm not driving it. I want it to be fun to drive and offer reasonable cargo space. I don't want a behemoth.

Sounds like we are hunting the same animal.

TagMan

brightness04

The vast majority of humanity have no driver's license, but that says nothing about luxury car buyers or even American population in general. Likewise, the lease vs. purchase pattern of the entire car industry has little relevance to the luxury segment where two of the three top players are playing with numbers that skew one form of ownership over the other in a dramatic fashion.

Besides anecdotal evidences that we witness in life every day (I know more than a half a dozen people personally who got BMW and MB's in the past year, every single one of them leased not buy, and not for lack of funds), we do have some inkling on just how the breakdown is: the 2006 BMW annual report indicated that Leased Product Asset increased 20% in Euro terms, and would have increased by 30% if adjusted for exchange rate. What happened to Euro vs Dollar from December 31, 2005 to December 31, 2006? Euro went from roughly $1.2 to roughly $1.3. In other words, the Lease Product Asset class exchange risk is almost perfectly correlated with the Euro-Dollar. In other words, the overwhelming majority of leases took place in the US. From the same 2006 annual report, you can find that out of about 47 billion Euro "sales" revenue, about 18 billion Euro worth were leases. If the overwhelming majority of that 18 billion worth of lease "sales" took place in the US, lj was not far off at all about 90% of US "buyers" of BMW (and likewise MB) were looking at montly payments, not MSRP's.

Of course the quality of a car matters. However, the quality requirement for a $30k car is quite different from that of a $40k car. A car MSRP'd at $40k can be sold at effectly $30k through at least three ways:

1. $10k discount;
2. 0% interest rate for 5 years in a 6% interest envrionment;
3. high lease residual to reduce the monthly payment to that of a $30k car.

hpowders

It sounds like a logical choice. Small enough to provide some fun, with reasonable cargo space. BMW upgraded the engine and the interior and the reviews have been quite good save for C&D cryptically stating it lacks the "charisma" of its big brother-whatever that means. The X3 is no longer BMW's embarassment.

The great thing is it is still being eclipsed in sales by the X5, so there will be deals aplenty. If I had the garage space, I would have pounced already as Brightness said, the leases run about $500 or even slightly less. Why buy? The leasing deals are too good.

My first 325i in 1993 was around $500 a month for an MSRP of about $33k. The X3 would be around $47k. Same monthly payment. Incredible!

lexusguy

I want it to be fun to drive and offer reasonable cargo space. I don't want a behemoth.

That's what my wife wanted as well. She seems to be pretty happy with her X3. The compact lux-ute market is about to explode, but for the moment its the LR2, X3, and RDX. We didn't really consider the Land Rover because of their horrendous quality rep, and the RDX has terrible fuel economy and just barely qualifies as a luxury car. Factor in a very aggressive lease from BMW and free service, and its no brainer.

The X3 3.0 is quick, comfortable, and has enough space for what we need. She decided against the sport package because of the ride quality, but the standard setup still handles far better than just about everything else. The only issue I have with it is the steering is very heavy at parking speed, and too light at highway speed. It should be the opposite. That, and there is apparently a somewhat common issue with throttle lag that has yet to be fixed. BMW is "working on it".

The Infiniti EX will be something to watch. There's also the Volvo XC60, Benz M\GLK, Audi Q3, and a possible entry from Lexus.

hpowders

For $250, BMW offers variable power-assisted steering for the X3 which increases in parking situations to make the steering less heavy. I would never order it, but should be good for the wives.

I would also stay away from the sport package as all the reviews say the ride is punishing with it and just fine without it. C&D says upgrade the wheels to 18" if you must and that's it.

tagman

The vast majority of humanity have no driver's license

Interesting to visit the Almanac once in a while, but irrelevant here, IMO.

The relevance of the fact that 17% of buyers overall lease, applies when you keep suggesting that the $30K - $35K Hyundai Genesis should compete with the Mercedes Benz S-Class or BMW 7-series, where the vast majority of buyers actually lease. That won't be the case with the Genesis, I'm sorry to enlighten you, even if it is considered a mid-lux competitor. Why? Because it is much lower down the price tier, where there will be a smaller percentage of those that will lease it. If you don't think so, I'll place you a little wager that more folks will lease the upper HELCs than the Hyundai Genesis.

the quality requirement for a $30k car is quite different from that of a $40k car.

Really? Who should we tell that to? The $30K buyer, or the $40K buyer? I totally disagree.

Anyway, as I posted last night, I'm not going to go round and round with you on this and waste my time. So... I'm going to a movie, and I'll check in with you again tomorrow afternoon... maybe.

TagMan

tagman

I'm going to test drive it next week, if I get the chance, and I'll let you (and others) know what I find out!

Talk to you tomorrow.

TagMan

hpowders

Very good. Looking forward to it.

lexusguy

I'm going to test drive it next week, if I get the chance, and I'll let you (and others) know what I find out!

I'd definitely like to hear what you think of the car. I absolutely loathed driving our old RX300, but the X3 really isn't bad. I'd personally rather have a wagon, but the car isn't for me, and my wife won't go without the high driving position.

hpowders

I don't really want an SUV, but I do need the space. Might as well get one that has some fun attached which seems to be an X3.

houdini1

The V6 Rav4 seems to win most of the comparisons but I don't know what sort of lease deals they have. The $400. a month, nothing down, maintenance included lease that Brightness mentioned for the X3 sounds impossible to beat.