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Comments
Until MB strapped a turbocharger into the V12, V12 stretch length cars hardly had accelearation advantage over their V8 brethrens. The horsepower difference was usually a couple dozen only, and that was easily eaten up by the extra weight. How often have you seen V12 limos running from stop light to stop light in NYC in 11-second quarter-mile sprints?? The latest turbo-charged nonsense from V12 is simply a pointless marketting gimick that inevitably brings maitenance headaches as all those MB turbo gas models do. The point of V12 in the lineup is about exclusivity, plus a nice ride to impress the clientelle at the hotel and/or airport. Planning only 2000 copies in the first year, and allowing the operating cost to be $5000 lower in fuel cost alone compared to V12 from the competitions (in a 20k/yr operating schedule), serve both target groups quite well.
These are no doubt niche vehicles, and Lexus knows it by making limited quantities.
Initially, there were price premiums for Hybrids, but I believe that is slowing going away. Just to keep the price comp simple, I went to Lexus website and priced out the RXs and GSs for a Greenwich,CT zip code. This is what I found for comparable models (only fully loaded models were priced, since they offered most comparable equipments/features)
GS430 rwd $61652
GS450h rwd $62033
RX350 awd $47446
RX400h awd $49866
With various green rebates/incentive, the small price differences are totally non-issue.
On top of all this, Lexus got some bragging right by being there first.
That is not exactly the case. I have posted some additional clarification when I realized you were taking that so literally.
I am not the EPA, and no one knows for certain WHAT will happen.
I had read that the hybrids could take up to a 30% hit, but that relates only to those hybrids that get huge mileage, such as the Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid.
The LS600hL is a different hybrid, and proof of that is that the hybrid equipment makes little difference in the mpg rating. We will have to wait to know the truth of the '08 rating and how it affects all hybrids, and how it affects regular cars as well.
If the '08 LS600hL is truly rated by the '08 system, then we are deprived of a "before and after" scenario with that car, and we have no way to really know what it would have been under the '07 rating system.
Your math is just a guess. And that has little value.
But let's go with what we DO know, and that is that the LS600hL gives no significant fuel economy or performance increase over the regular LS460.
If anything, it demonstrates the lack of efficiency of all that 887 lbs. of added blubber.
How smart would it be for a company to put in a tubocharger or supercharger that delivered no increase in performance? You would be arguing all day that it would be stupid.
TagMan
Is that a joke?? Do you deny that the published LS600HL, regardless the 2008 v. 2007 testing method difference is 21+mpg for city? Do you deny that published city MPG for S600 RWD is 12mpg using 2007 method?
Do you deny that 12,000 / 21 = 571 gallons?
(the amount of gas the LS600 would consume in 12k miles, using existing EPA number)
Do you deny that 12,000 / 12 = 1000 gallons?
(the amount of gas the S600 would consume in 12k miles, using existing EPA number)
Do you deny that 1000 - 571 = 429 gallons?
(the difference in fuel consumption beteeen S600 vs. LS600 in 12k miles)
Do you deny that 571 - 429 = 142 gallons?
(the gas budget for a car that can save another 429 gallons compared to the LS600)
Do you deny that 12,000 / 142 = 84.5 mpg
(the gas mileage of the hypothetical car would have to have in order to save the same amount of gas compared to LS600 as LS600 saves over S600).
Therefore, in terms of fuel consumption, LS600 is exactly the midway point of S600 and a super fuel mizer that delivers close to 85mpg!
You call that a guess?? Please pay attention to arithmetics before making your judgement. You have been guessing left and right using all sorts of self-conflictory numbers and exaggerations to build your flimsy case. I on the other hand have been consistently understating my case. The difference between 2007 vs. 2008 testing method would have helped my numbers greatly, but I chose to stick to solid numbers we know for sure in the numerical analysis . . . because the case I'm making is so strong that an understatement of 20% wouldn't even affect the validity of the case.
How smart would it be for a company to put in a tubocharger or supercharger that delivered no increase in performance? You would be arguing all day that it would be stupid.
People paying more than double the price of S600 to get the Maybach 57 and Maybach 64 are not exactly shaving time off 0-60 or getting better gas mileage either. Heck, they are getting worse numbers. LS460L has no AWD option. The weight of AWD running gears and the internal frictions of AWD may well have overtaxed the 4.6L engine, which is not exactly a superstar on low-end torque. The instant availabilty of hybrid drive train may well be delivering a good 0-30 kick in the pants :-)
That's a prodigious achievement! :surprise:
LS460L, under the new EPA system, gets 16/24/19 combined. Having that 8-speed saves close to 10% on the highway.
DrFill
Yes, I deny it. I understand that the published city mpg is only 20.
I also deny any positive knowledge by anyone as to the true differences that the '08 EPA rating sytem will impart to all the different cars and trucks. No one knows for sure, so you're math is as I said before... a guess.
Frankly, I'm not interesting in guessing, because it makes no difference to me anyway. go ahead and post all you want. I've done a lot of posting myself over the last couple of days, and my argument is clear and it is clear that MANY posters here agree.
Bottom line for me is something that you can not change, no matter what you post... and that is that the LS600hL...
- does NOT deliver any significant performance advantage over the LS460L.
- does NOT deliver any significant fuel efficiency advantage over the LS460L.
- the LS600hL has a trunk capacity that is 35% WORSE than the LS460L.
All the rest is meaningless to me. it might be important to you, and that is OK with me. But for me, this hybrid achieves NOTHING significantly more than the LS460L, where it matters most to me...
GAS MILEAGE, PERFORMANCE, and CARGO CAPACITY. :lemon:
TagMan
12000 / 20 = 600 gallons
12000 / 12 = 1000 gallons
1000 - 600 = 400 gallons (heck, I actually did round down to 400 gallon difference in an earlier post anyway)
600 - 400 = 200 gallons (the budget for a miser car saving again as much gas)
12000 / 200 = 60 mpg
So, in terms of fuel consumption, LS600 is the midway point between S600 and a super duper fuel miser that delivers 60mpg! No production car in the US delivers as high gas mileage as 60mpg!
I also deny any positive knowledge by anyone as to the true differences that the '08 EPA rating sytem will impart to all the different cars and trucks. No one knows for sure, so you're math is as I said before... a guess.
Wow! That's an 180 degree turn from your earlier position that the 2008 testing method would doom hybrids. Frankly, if that's the position you take, you can not make a statement that LS600HL fails to save significant amount of fuel saving over LS460L at all. You are basicly saying you have no clue until both cars are tested using the same method. As for on my math, your assessment is way off mark. The reserve margin in that analysis is so substantial it's not even funny. Do you honestly believe 2008 testing method would magically show S600 to deliver 20mpg? If early indications on typical gas cars is taken into consideration, 10mpg or even 9mpg for S600 is far more likely. Get real.
- does NOT deliver any significant performance advantage over the LS460L.
Nor does S550 over E550, or Maybach over S600. So? The name of the game is exclusivity.
- does NOT deliver any significant fuel efficiency advantage over the LS460L.
You are contradicting yourself again. Remember, you just stated that you have no idea how 2007 vs. 2008 testing method would affect different cars. In case you want to get a clue as to what difference the change over means from preliminary results, like lj mentioned before, it's about 20%. Of course, it's your own business if you decide to bury your head in sand for the time being. Just don't jumpt around claiming 30+% in one post then zip-nada in another, both in luxury forums, both with professed certainty.
- the LS600hL has a trunk capacity that is 35% WORSE than the LS460L.
So what? S600 has a trunk that is 20% bigger than that of the Maybach 53 . . . E class wagon can pack nearly 400% as much cargo as S class . . . and the price differences are about double in both cases, in reverse correlation to cargo capacity.
All the rest is meaningless to me.
We already knew that. We can pretty much conclude the car was meaningless to you as soon as the Lexus badge was put on, aside from being an opportunity for you to put down Lexus. Unfortuantely, the opportunity doesn't look that good. Since there's nothing in the MB stable to bash the new Lexus with, you have to resort to a 40mpg, 4-second 0-60 and 70cu.ft cargo strawman to bash the Lexus with. Heck, even if the new Lexus did all that, you'd still be claiming disappointment; why isn't it 50mpg, 3-sec 0-60 and 80cu.ft cargo space?
Likewise, S550 should be cancelled too because E550 is not only quicker to 60 but also offering the same sized trunk despite being about a foot shorter in length. The lack of folding backseats really make carrying cargo miserable in S550 compared to E550.
What a bunch of GIANT disappointments from MB :lemon:
How far off the planet can you go? So, now I see you are comparing a freakin' STATION WAGON with the S-Class!!! OMG!!! Hopefully you realize that the LS600hL is the SAME body as the LS460L... and THAT's why the disappointment in the 35% reduced trunk capacity. I can't even believe I would have to explain that to you. Not only have you gone to a completely different body style, but you have gone to a completely different MODEL LINE as well.
Let's try to stay with the LS line, please.
When I posted that the LS600hL "does NOT deliver any significant performance advantage over the LS460L".... THIS was your reply:
Nor does S550 over E550, or Maybach over S600. So? The name of the game is exclusivity.
Once again, let's review and learn that the LS600hL and the LS460L are the SAME model line. We're not talking about comparing the LS to the GS here. So, your comparison of the S-class to the E-class again is... well, to put it politely, senseless and derailed.
Unlike the progressions from an S550, to an S600, to an S63, where the performance INCREASES... and increases with enough SIGNIFICANCE... Instead we find the standard Lexus LS460L, and then as we stay in the SAME MODEL LINE we move up to the LS600hL... and guess what? NO SIGNIFICANT INCREASE in acceleration or quarter-mile speed.
You keep using earlier posts about '08 EPA ratings as some sort of argument. My opinions regarding the EPA ratings do not change any FACTS here at all. If I had posted that I expected there to be a 70% difference in the EPA rating sytem from '07 to '08, then that wouldn't matter either... but sure enough, you would be using it as an argument to twist the current FACTS.
Bottom line, regardless of what we GUESS the difference of the '07 ratings to the '08 ratings... the LS460L gets a current rating of 27 highway MPG, while the LS600hL gets a highway rating of only 22! No matter what happens between '07 and '08, the LS460 rating could never change so much as to suddenly make the LS600hL improve its fuel economy.
When I previously posted that the LS600hL has a trunk capacity that is 35% WORSE than the LS460L... you posted this reply:
So what?
OMG!!! Sorry, brightness, but "so what?" just doesn't cut it. That is a significant loss of cargo capacity when comparing the LS600hL to the LS460L.
Heck, no matter what you or I post, brightness... the following FACTS cannot be disputed. The best you can come up with is comparing different model lines and saying "So what?", or arguing about my former opinions.
WHY?... because you can NOT dispute these facts. NO ONE CAN!...
- The current LS line consists of the lower model LS460(L) and higher model LS600hL.
- The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT 0-60 advantage over the lower model LS460L.
- The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT quarter-mile speed advantage over the lower model LS460L.
- The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT fuel economy savings over the lower model LS460L.
- The higher model LS600hL trunk capacity is 35% WORSE than the lower model LS460L.
- WITHOUT those advantages, the higher model LS600hL costs significantly MORE than the lower model LS460L.
That's what I've been posting, and posting, and posting. And you keep trying to shoot it down, but you CAN'T. Why? Because facts are facts. It is what it is!
TagMan
Likewise, S550 should be cancelled too because E550 is not only quicker to 60 but also offering the same sized trunk despite being about a foot shorter in length. The lack of folding backseats really make carrying cargo miserable in S550 compared to E550.
What a bunch of GIANT disappointments from MB :lemon:
brightness - I have not for one minute compared the LS to the GS, or ES, or IS... nor have I attempted to dishonor the entire Lexus line-up with these posts. If anything, I have been quite complimentary of the LS460L and it's "value" in the line-up. D-man suggested that the LS460 is the real value, and perhaps he is right.
Regardless, my only contention is that the LS600hL does not offer the advantages I indicated over the LS460L. That's it in a nutshell.
If that causes you to want to discredit large portions of the Mercedes line-up as a result... well, I don't think you are doing yourself (or the rest of us) any favors.
TagMan
The E wagon was simply to illustrate that cargo space is not the priority in this class. Even the E class sedan has the same trunk space as that of the S class, which is supposed to be a bigger model than E class . . . Trunks of Maybach are even smaller. All these are luxury sedans.
So, your comparison of the S-class to the E-class again is... well, to put it politely, senseless and derailed.
There are two ways of drawing car lines. The BMW way of using body style and the old MB way of using engine spec. I doubt you'd consider the way MB drew those lines in the years that it owned the luxury car market were "senseless." LS600HL represent an entirely different drive train, and considering its exclusivity, it's an entirely new class of its own in the Lexus lineup. Heck, S600 and Maybach share more in drive train elements than that between LS460L and LS600HL.
Bottom line, regardless of what we GUESS the difference of the '07 ratings to the '08 ratings... the LS460L gets a current rating of 27 highway MPG, while the LS600hL gets a highway rating of only 22! No matter what happens between '07 and '08, the LS460 rating could never change so much as to suddenly make the LS600hL improve its fuel economy.
There you go again, further undermining your own earlier statements. If hybrids can see their 2007 ratings cut by more than 30%, a 22 reading under 2008 method would mean 22/0.7=31.4 under 2007 method if your earlier statement were true! Considering the type of vehicles under discussion, city/heavy traffic fuel economy is probably far more important than empty highway ratings. There, the LS600 scores 20mpg, the LS460L scores 16-17 under 2008 method, S 600 delivered 12mpg under 2007 method and probably will deliver 10mpg or less under 2008 method. That means LS600 is delivering 25% better fuel economy than LS460L and over 50% better fuel economy over S600!(undersatement of the day) That's a tremendous achievement.
Glad you are comparing LS600 only to LS460L, and ignoring all comparisons to S600 altogether . . . because frankly both the LS460L and the LS600HL trounce the S class. If you want to compare cars from the same maker, let's see:
The Maybach's offer inferior 0-60 to S600;
The Maybach's offer worse quater mile than S600;
The Maybach's gives worse fuel economy over the lower model S600;
The Maybach's trunk capacity is smaller than S600;
Yet Maybach costs about double the price of S600.
Lexus is only planning on selling 2000 LS600 a year, the same marketting goal of Maybach. I'm inclined to predict that Lexus will have far better success achieving that goal than Maybach.
LS600HL at least delivers 25% or so better city fuel economy compared to its "value" V8 brethren when both are using 2008 testing methods . . . 760i delivers worse city fuel economy compared to its "value" V8 brethren, and so does S600 vs. S550. Neither 760i nor S600 offer AWD, which would have shaved even more mpg's. When compared to its proper competition, LS600HL delivers at least 35% better gas mileage than 760i, and over 60% better than S600! all the while adding fuel economy-robbing AWD in the process. That's a whopping huge achievement.
It's rather silly to even emphasize 0-60 and quarter mile for those stretched limo's. In case you did not know, BMW 750i and 760i have the exact same 0-60: 5.8 seconds. MB had number pairs just like that until the latest iteration when the company decided to toss a turbo charger into the V12 bay, largely because the company is bereft of most other advantages. I'm still trying to figure out how does spilled coffee in the back seats make up for being stranded by the side of the road because of turbo troubles.
You keep using earlier posts about '08 EPA ratings as some sort of argument. My opinions regarding the EPA ratings do not change any FACTS here at all. If I had posted that I expected there to be a 70% difference in the EPA rating sytem from '07 to '08, then that wouldn't matter either... but sure enough, you would be using it as an argument to twist the current FACTS.
So what is the latest "FACTS" coming out of your reality bending machine? Are you reversing all your previous statements? How are we to know you are not going to disown what you are saying now tomorrow? That's the problem with exaggerations and inconsistencies . . . the truth has a way of sustaining itself (even when often being understated); the lies on the other hand often find themselves tripping on each other.
WHY?... because you can NOT dispute these facts. NO ONE CAN!...
- The current LS line consists of the lower model LS460(L) and higher model LS600hL.
- The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT 0-60 advantage over the lower model LS460L.
- The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT quarter-mile speed advantage over the lower model LS460L.
- The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT fuel economy savings over the lower model LS460L.
- The higher model LS600hL trunk capacity is 35% WORSE than the lower model LS460L.
- WITHOUT those advantages, the higher model LS600hL costs significantly MORE than the lower model LS460L.
TagMan
I think you are hanging everything here on performance and again I'll repeat that it is a performance test being cited as bible here and it was on a pre-production car. I dismiss preproduction car testing completely - no matter what brand we are talking about. IMO - basing a hardened argument on a preprod car is like trying to fnd a world series winner out of exhibition season.
The bottom line in all this is not 0-60 testing, not trunk space and not quarter mile testing nor is it it's MPG vs a standard LS460L for the simple reason that the car is not competing for LS460L money. That is only the way a bunch of car nuts are going to look at the car, particularly a headline grabbing non-german car that will get looked at in business, news and hi-tech mags besides run of the mill auto mags. The bottom line here is does the car offer something to brag about by those who take it and the answer is a resounding yes. And that is why people will buy it while car nuts will be left scratching their heads wondering why - assuming other reviews are like the Edmunds review (which I doubt they will be). You see most people don't buy expensive cars for the reasons you are stating or thinking about on this car. They may buy sports cars for that reason but this is a lux car we are talking about. You are bringing expensive sport car logic to a lux car that is really not all that expensive, relatively speaking. If that were proper, and if it was followed, Rolls Royce would never have existed.
My friend, I have deep respect for you BUT right now you are not thinking outside the box.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The current high end prestige sedan lineup from Daimler-Chrysler consists of the S class and the Maybach. S class being the low end, and Maybach being the high end.
The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT 0-60 advantage over the lower model LS460L.
The Maybach's are actually significantly slower than S600 doing 0-60; how significant is that? the same significance as that exists between S550 and S600, only in reverse; i.e. the high end model Maybach is about the same 0-60 as S550.
- The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT quarter-mile speed advantage over the lower model LS460L.
The higher model Maybach's offer SIGNIFICANT quarter-mile speed DISADVANTAGE over the lower model S600. Maybach 0-60 and quarter mile are about the same as S550. See above.
- The higher model LS600hL offers NO SIGNIFICANT fuel economy savings over the lower model LS460L.
That is just plain wrong. 20-25% fuel saving both using 2008 testing method is a big difference. What's more, S600 is 25% worse than S550, Maybach's are another 20-30% worse than S600. LS600hL would have been 25+% ahead in the game just by having exact the same gas mileage as LS460L . . . but being Lexus, it tops even its own other products.
The higher model LS600hL trunk capacity is 35% WORSE than the lower model LS460L.
Maybach trunk is 20% less than that of the S class.
WITHOUT those advantages, the higher model LS600hL costs significantly MORE than the lower model LS460L.
While there may be 10-30% price difference between LS460 and LS600hL depending on configurations, the difference between Maybach and S600 is over 100% . . . and as we have seen above, Maybach delivers inferior numbers in every single category listed above compared to S600, not just "no significant advantage" but SIGNIFICANT DISADVANTAGE! Goes to show that your critera are way out of touch with the market segment ;-)
In any case, although some may find LS460L better value than LS600hL simply because of the lower price, both LS460L and LS600hL delivery far superior value and technical/engineering excellence compared to their competition from Daimler-Chrysler.
I do believe, in balance, lj, that there are plenty of guys that buy the S600 or S63 for the performance, and those guys will laugh at the LS600hL, as they smoke it to death and leave it in doo-doo dust.
But, you do make sense that there are enough car nuts that will see this thing as a whiz bang techno marvel with its 887 lbs. of delightful technology... even if it doesn't actually do much of anything beyond the car without it.
Out of my genuine respect for you, I accept your perspective as a legitimate one, although not the only one. I believe that my perspective is every bit as valid, and represents the view of many, including Edmunds and still others that we will hear from in the not-too-distant future.
The bottom line in all this is not 0-60 testing, not trunk space and not quarter mile testing... The bottom line here is does the car offer something to brag about by those who take it
Well, on this I will have to say that the bottom line, lj, is different for different folks it would seem, so perhaps neither one of us should state so deliberately what the bottom line is.
For many the bottom line is exactly the 0-60, or the quarter mile, and ALSO the bragging rights. THAT's what an S63 might be to some... a combination of ALL those things.
And still others might not quite see the LS600hL as achieving enough, but then again there are those that will be pleased as punch to be seen in the Lexus flagship, no matter what it is, or isn't. I understand.
But, you are right when you say those things can't be the bottom line for the LS600hL. It essentially doesn't have the ingredients for THAT to ever be the bottom line, does it?
Anyway, good post, and you have built a bridge.
TagMan
I expect housing to recover in a few more months.... do you agree?
20%, huh? sounds OK to me.
TM
Despite all the neg talk here, much of it tied to Edmunds and a reviewer who has a bias against hybrids, I expect this car to be a big hit and be much talked about in a positive light in the press - and Lexus will market that to the hilt.
I expect housing to recover in a few more months.... do you agree?
Have also been doing real well but I just speculate theoretically about oil and I've never really traded there. I like bonds very much as well right now and I think stocks and bonds both will do well right into next year - assuming in this day and age - that we have smooth sailing on the terrorist front.
I agree on housing. I thnk the recovery has already started and will continue to do so slowly at first but will be quite noticable late this year.
BTW - pool opens in three weeks. If i didn't live in the woods it would have been opened already but tree and pollen droppings between May 10-20th are horrible here. G35 is wonderful.
Do you think Prius, Camry hybrid, RX 400h and GS 450h are big hits? They're all selling around invoice with the exception of Camry because of its relative newness. However, that too will soon follow. All of this, 10 years after the premier of Prius, and hybrids account for 1% of all auto sales. The hybrid market is phlegmatic at best and we know the reason--they are costly to produce and the benefits are marginal. The 600h will be no different. It's just another hybrid albeit the most expensive one to date. Now that Lexus has come out with their best and it did not match expectations, all I can say is, there's no more hype left.
I guess any car with a lease incentive program is an invoice car now? :confuse:
Camry Hybrid selling 4-5k units a month, for the last 6 months, 400h selling 15-20k a year (sold almost 1500 last month!), at $50k a pop, are home runs. No question.
The GS is the only one that has struggled. Let's report some facts to back up our biases, please? Thanks.
DrFill
The REALLY big news isn't the LS600hL when it comes to being a "greenie" car. It's the BlueTec diesel, and clean diesels in general. The E-Class BlueTec won the World Green car of the Year Award recently, and in some of the tests and reviews the car averaged 34 mpg!
Now, granted the E-Class is not an S-Class or LS600hL, but just to shed some light n the REAL mileage achievement, the upcoming Mercedes GL Vision BlueTec, which is a huge V-8 modern clean diesel in an SUV, achieves about 24 combined mpg.
Now compare THAT to the hybrid, and you will see diesels taking over very soon. They are less complicated and less expensive and do not rely on batteries and they do not destroy cargo space.
I know we don't want to turn this into a diesel vs. hybrid debate, but the point is that hybrid sales will grow, but they have indeed slowed their pace.,, and once these diesels become readily available, they will further challenge the hybrid sales.
Some estimates place diesels ahead of hybrids in years to come, but this is not clear enough for anyone to really know which one will prevail. As you should know, it is likely that they will marry, and we will have diesel hybrids... so gosh, it's going to be interesting.
But when you consider the 34 mpg achievement in the E-Class, and the 24 mpg of the GL, then it's a reasonable question as to whether or not the diesel could possibly find its way into a HELC at some point.
The hybrid doesn't work well on a V-8, as we have now seen. It works better on a small car, as we have also seen. The diesel, on the other hand, will work on anything, from an econobox to a semi truck, to a diesel locomotive.
BTW, the Prius is readily available here for a bargain price every day.
TagMan
I already did. But I will do it again. 10 years after their introduction hybrids account for 1% of auto sales and they are now being sold around invoice. Spin it any way you want, I don't call that a hot sector. Will it grow? Perhaps, but it remains to be seen how fast and how Toyota will approach the demand, whether it is worth it to increase the market with the limited profit margins on these cars, or, whether they can in fact increase their profit margins with limited demand.
Sorry Doc, hybrids have been a work-in-progress test of the market. It remains to be seen where they will go and they are far from being well-rooted in the mainstream. To their credit Toyota was able to do this because it has a big hedge in their expansive conventional product line in addition to their sound financials. But two years ago Lexus told us that all Lexuses will be hybrid by 2010 or something to that effect. I don't think it can possibly happen. Not even close unless they choose to roll the dice with Lexus but, as we know, Toyota doesn't roll dice.
BTW Doc, I have no bias. I am on record as being impressed with the 450h, and I also think I will see some merit in the 600h if ever get around to driving it. I have also slammed my two favorite brands Porsche and BMW on many occasions. You on the other hand came out showing disappointment with the 600h and have now changed your tune. You started by just playing devil's advocate but now you are back in full pom-pom waving mode. Spare me the bias line.
#2: Tag was labeling the car as a bomb, or words to that effect, and that is false. If he wants a HP king, he knows where to go. That's fine. But the 600h has many virtues, and doesn't need 500-600HP to sell, and be a corporate asset. The car serves many impressive functions, for the buyer, and for the manufacturer.
If someone wants to slam the car as a waste, we can go at it for a turn. That's no problem. Tag is cool. He just gets carried away, and that's fine.
BTW, Hybrid sales are more like 2%, with Prius sales up almost 75%, and Camry Hybrid sales adding to the movement. So I just insist on accuracy.
17 million car sales X 1% equals 170k units.
Prius may do that BY ITSELF this year. Toyota, by itself, may have 2% of the market!
So I think it's time to update those figures. Toyota is moving ofrward on that.
DrFill
The cars are MORE than we have all thought. It now seems that there is also a coupe, and there is a pic of it, and you've GOT to see it. If that coupe costs only 30K, it will sell very well. Very impressive. (Do I see a hint of R8 in that Genesis Coupe?) So, now I'm even more convinced than ever that the Genesis project will be a hit.
Hopefully, this link will work for non-subscribers:
link title
BTW, if you are not a subscriber, it is free and worth it, IMO.
TagMan
Selling them as Hyundais will cost them money in the long-run, as they can raise prices, and move above $30k.
Hyundai becoming Mercury? Could that make any less sense? :confuse:
DrFill
Lexus, your response?
Thanks for the link. Nice site & the coupe does look hot!
DrFill
I can't help but notice that as soon as the name "Audi" comes up, the Doc mentions sales numbers... which is a reasonable point, but I don't think it had to do with your original idea, which I interpret as a suggestion to put some perspective on just how two different powertrain alternatives stack up against one another... and do so by using an existing HELC (the Audi) to compare the LS600hL with.
This is why the excitement over the modern, clean diesel.
Afterall, lg, the E-Class BlueTec diesel (not in the same category as the LS600hL, of course) was granted the "World Green Car Award" at the NYIAS.
If Mercedes puts a large BlueTec in the S-Class, we'd have an interesting situation.
Anyway, your post offered an interesting perspective.
TagMan
Yes, I agree, but quite a challenge. I'm still amazed at that Genesis Coupe.
I see that rockshocka1 took a look at it and was also impressed.
I hope everone here takes a look, so that they don't miss out on seeing it.
For anyone who wants to be very surprised by seeing the upcoming Genesis Coupe, I'll post the link again here:
link title
It's a MUST see, IMO.
TagMan
Anytime. Glad you liked it. I'm going to look at that car when it shows up, and drive it!... even if it is a Hyundai, I've got to see for myself if it's as good as it looks!
TagMan
Just compare the gas mileage, d-man... we wouldn't want to compare the performance... that wouldn't be fair.
TagMan
Audi R4 to compete with Boxster?
BMW quotes a 5.4 second time for their 760. C&D tested the A8 W12 at 5.1 0-60, 12.3 0-100. The Lexus (pre-production) did 5.5 0-60, 12.4 0-100.
Sounds like the same ballpark to me.
That Audi coupe looks a lot like the Genesis Coupe! :surprise:
DrFill
How do you justify the V12? It has 4 more cylinders, more power, but less economy than a V8.
How do you justify a 600h? It has a larger V8, hybrid power and emissions, and the same economy as a Lexus V8 (considerably more than an "Average" V8).
That's what's so worthwhile about doing a 600h for Lexus. It is not a value buy in a Lexus, it is a prestige buy. But it is a value buy in relative terms.
I'm a glass half-full kinda guy.
DrFill
Interested in what an LS600hL generates without the electric motors? Only 389 HP. And only 438 with them.
TagMan
Yes! I commented that it had a little of the R8's look, and certainly the R4 shares some of that look as well.
I've been doing some research on that Genesis Coupe. And I believe that it may not actually be the Genesis Coupe, even though Winding Road reports it as such. There is some history of that similar body design having been produced under a different project name. Now, as names go, we all know that they can be disguised until released, but I suspect that the coupe from Winding Road might have a different name than Genesis.
Now that is, of course, unless Genesis becomes Hyundai's new luxury Marque, and the sedan and coupe then become models within that marque. Hyundai hasn't made the final decision on that yet from what I understand.
There is, I notice, and big "H" on the front grill, however.
TagMan
I would hope so!... but currently in the LS600hL, I believe it is only 389 HP without the help of the electric motors.
If the torgue numbers have been indicated, I've missed them. If anyone knows the torque numbers of the LS600hL, both without and with the electric motors, please post them.
With so much question about the LS600hL's powerplant and whether or not it is equivalent to a V-12, it would be interesting to see how those torque numbers compare to those genuine V-12s.
TagMan
G35X: very modern interior, lots of power and a real looker of the bunch. On the negative side, too much engine noise under moderate/hard acceleration, autobox operation is not smooth as the C280. Gas/brake pedals are very sensitive to input (will need getting used to)
RDX: Modern interior, excellent driving/handling for a tallish vehicle and relatively roomy inside. Same as the G regarding the autobox.
C280: I was very surprise at how well balance this car is. Quiet interior, super smooth autobox, feel solid/substantial when driving but not actually big in size. Very easy to drive smoothly. Excellent lease deal since MB trying to clear out the 07 prior to the new 08 arrival. On the negative side is that MB quality has not been strong. Also the interior design is a little on the boring side.
So now I am thinking of leasing both the RDX and the C280. The RDX will replace my Subi and the C280 will be my first adventure with MB vehicles.
Some reality check: considering how big a difference 2007 vs. 2008 EPA testing methods make, we can quite safely conclude that results from "some tests," without knowing the specifics of the testing methodology, is quite meaningless.
Hybrids, or any other fuel saving strategy that costs more money and weigh more than regular gasoline engines (that would include diesels, which are more expensive than gasoline engines and weigh more), will always be better applied to large platforms than to small platforms. Why? Because bumping 30mpg to 50mpg only saves only 160 gallons in 12,000 miles (400 vs. 240). The same 160 gallons can be saved on a 12mpg gas guzzler by bumping its mileage to 14.3mpg! Sure, 14.3mpg may not sound like much, but it saves the exact same 160 gallons in a 12k-mile year over a 12mpg gas guzzler as a 50mpg super miser would save over a 30mpg subcompact in a year!
With that arithmetic perspective cleared up, it should be clear that whatever the manufactuers can do to bring out a handful of extra mpg's on the most gas guzzling cars would be the biggest real life fuel savers. As they say in investment, take care of the big losers quickly, the winners and the smaller fries can take care of themselves :-) I'm actually open minded about both hybrids and diesel, but MB seems to have concluded that hybrids have a great future because:
(1) It doesn't have the fuel combustion rate, hence RPM, limitation like diesel, therefore more power will be available;
(2) It doesn't have the pollution problems of diesel;
(3) Electric drivetrain system integrates well with all the luxury gadgets that are sure to become more and more common . . . a compression-ignition engine would be even less electric-dependent/generating than regular spark ignition-engines.
BTW, weight is not a problem in the high end luxury, where ride quality is paramount. Sprung-weight to unsprung-weight ratio actually helps ride quality. That's a big factor behind why V12 engines populated the top end luxury cars even as they delivered no 0-60 or quarter-mile advantages over their V8 brethrens for decades. MB's latest S600 vs. S550 is more about turbo-charger vs. no turbo-charger; without the turbo in S600, a 5.5L V12 powered car would lag way behind a 5.5L V8 stablemate. Even for the car market where 0-60 and quarter-mile numbers are of paramount importance, the current V8 Ferrari is quicker than the current V12 offerings. Cylinder count doesn't always contribute to speed; Porsche has been demonstrating that for decades with its turbo flat 6-cylinders. There are other factors that contribute to high cylinder count in the top end of luxury market. Besides exclusivity, the ride quality is a huge factor. There, the extra weight of a V12 and the extra weight of battieres produce the same result: high sprung-weight to unsprung-weight ratio, which means when a wheel hits a pot hole or speed bump, the wheel on one end of the spring travels more than the vehicle mass travels on the other end of the spring system (in a drasticly simplified block diagram).
The "premium" associated with the alternative powerplant is significantly more with the hybrid. For example, unlike the many thousands typically charged for the hybrid alternative, Mercedes charges only $1K more for the BlueTec diesel. And... that makes the payback more realisic, and much quicker.
I'm not convinced that what we are reading with these so-called press releases
or news leaks are actually the truth in every case.
I am quite convinced that MB will support the diesel initiative, regardless of whether or not they determine that is in their best interest to sell something that they can call "hybrid". After all, there was a report that a minor IMA-type Honda-type system might be used just to be able to use the hybrid badge... reason is that the public's perception may more readily accept hybrid than diesel. But that will change soon anyway, as the clean modern diesels show up next model year.
It would seem to me that MB is hedging its bet, and needs to play the alternative powerplant game with both alternatives , just in case one sells better than the other.
Beyond that, there are also rumors of a hybrid diesel... so in the end MB might be the real winner. Of course with Toyota's acquisition of Isuzu, they have diesel resources that they did not have in the past, and they already have the hybrid technology lead, so it is conceivable that Toyota/Lexus could eventually jump ahead of everyone in the diesel hybrid department as well. Honda is another player here.
You mentioned something about diesels not being used for small applications, but I think you will see small diesels in the very near future... and used successfully.
Here in California, diesel fuel is now MUCH less money than even regular gas, unlike it's higher price of recent years.
Lastly, your comment about vehicle weight is interesting, but let's be realistic that lighter weight will yield better economy, and certainly the technology exists to make the ride smooth. My wife's Vanden Plas comes to mind. I've been borrowing it a lot lately, just to get familiar with it and see if we should keep it or sell it. It is a feather-weight 3800 lbs with its extensive use of aluminum, and with only 300 HP and a nice 310 lbs. of wide-range torque, it is surprisingly very spirited in its performance (forget this car in a hard slalom, though... I'm spoiled by the Carrera S). I also notice that I can get 25 mpg in a 205" HELC, which is near the 27 mpg hwy EPA rating! Without a hybrid!
TagMan
Diesel is also a very mature tech. There's very little room left for improvement compared to hybrids. Diesel used to be the engine of choice for luxury limo's, because its low fleet operation cost (fuel consumption) especially in idle comapared to gasoline engines. The extra weight of diesel engine helps provide a solid ride because of the higher sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio. Those were the days when Mercedes SD's ruled the roost among luxury limo service. If lightweight were the design goal of luxury limo's, they'd be using turbo-charged V6/I-6/flat-6, each of which configuration has 300+hp/300+lb-ft production models.
Weight has relatively little effect on highway mileage because at highway speed air resistence becomes more significant than rolling resistence. That's why LS460L can delivery 27mpg highway using 2007 EPA test method despite its 4500lb weight. It's in the city heavy traffic stop-and-go driving pattern where weight becomes a huge penalty due to the need to accelearate that burden. That's where both hybrid and diesel shine.
Thats not really true. The LS is able to do so well on the highway because in 8th gear it can cruise at barely above idle rpm. If weight doesn't matter, why is the highway fuel economy of the LS600hL so much worse when its coefficient of drag is the same?