Luxury Lounge

tagman

The $1K is the difference in the price for the same model with the alternate powertrain. The E350 to the E320 BlueTec.

Also, if you are going to take into account the HP ratings of the diesels, then it makes just as much sense when you look at any of the hybrids, to take into account that there is less HP, as with the diesel. For example, the Honda Civic hybrid engine is smaller, and you don't compare it to a Honda Fit just to demonstrate it's premium is even greater. No! Best to stay with the same model. With diesels, there is high torque numbers that could be accounted for, but you did not. And the hybrids do not offer that kind of torque.

The best way to measure the premium for the hybrids or diesels is simply to equip the same model with a gas engine, and see how much more the hybrid and/or diesel version costs.

To call these diesels old is due to not thinking out of the box, as lj would say. These diesels use an entirely new ultra-low sulfur fuel, as well as different technology, and achieve uncredibly low emission levels unheard of before. Nothing old about that. That's like saying hybrid is old because the electric motor has been around for a very long time. :surprise:

The innovation is the way these technologies are applied in concert with one another in a totally new way.

TagMan

drfill

The other side of that is if the transmission was all of the story, wouldn't a CVT, with "infinite" gear ratios have the advantage over a mere 8-speed?

Of course drag is a major factor, as the car's engine is able to work so little because it isn't fighting the wind every second. If had the frontal area of a Super Duty, it would lose plenty of efficiency.

DrFill

gtoskyline

If you are in doubt about LS600hL's torque, why don't you read
Motor Trend First Test: 2008 Lexus LS 600h L ?

The 45-to-65-mph passing time-a revealing torque indicator-required 2.8 seconds from the 5220-pound hybrid, 0.3 slower than the 5556-pound Flying Spur (479 pound-feet) and 0.6 behind the 5013-pound S600 (612 pound-feet). Keep in mind that those competitors' 12 cylinders exhale via twin turbochargers; the 600h would likely fare favorably with the normally aspirated Audi and BMW.

And C&D's 50-70mph in 3.1s.

tagman

No wonder the LS600hL has so much trouble when it comes to passing!! It's meager 385 lbs. of torque can't even hold a candle to the 479 (Flying Spur) and a whopping 612 (S600, of course!)

Considering the hefty 5,220 lbs this vehicle weighs, and it's tiny 385 pounds of torque... it's performance limitations become much easier to understand.

Thank you, gtoskyline.

TagMan

brightness04

I already addressed your points in my previous post that you were replying to. E350 and E320D-BT are not comparable at all. The 3liter (not 3.2L) in E320D-BT delivers less power than even the 3liter in E280, which is not even sold in the US. We do have C350 vs. C280 in the US to help ponder the price difference: C280 is over $5000 less than C350.

Not sure how Civic hybrid is even remotely related to this disucssion, unless you think E class is comparable to Civic. We do have a comparable midsize luxury hybrid vs regular gas platform in the GS450H vs. GS430/GS460 if you want to go by "numerical ratings" instead of actual output. There, the difference is only $2k in MSRP (less in real life), and the hybrid delivers more power than the gasser unlike the diesel's bogus "320" rating that actually delivers less power than not only the "350" but also the "280."

These diesels use an entirely new ultra-low sulfur fuel, as well as different technology, and achieve uncredibly low emission levels unheard of before. Nothing old about that.

All that fancy smog control piping only help making the engine legal, for the time being. They contribute nothing to performance. A slow revving 208hp V6 would be really behind the pack in terms of engine technology; the new tech is in smog control . . . it makes EPA happy, but not car nuts.

brightness04

385ft-lb is from the gasoline engine alone. S600 torque would be just as "mediocre" if the turbo is taken out.

designman

BMW quotes a 5.4 second time for their 760.

It's 5.8 on their website but the rag tests are always considerably lower with BMW products. This shows that BMW has integrity with regard to their performance claims. I don't follow these Sumo wrestlers much and I certainly would never buy one.

designman

How do you justify a 600h?

Since I said it has merits this is how I would do it. The drivetrain is probably silky smooth courtesy of the electric acceleration and CVT. It makes for a very quiet ride. This is what I found in the 450h so I assume it will be similar. This is a luxury thing, so I can see the attraction. Also, moving a mountain at a 5.4 0-60 ain't that bad considering you can do it for $15K less than the "comparable" BMW.

Trunk space is a major turnoff though. Ample space is supposed to come with big luxury boat. Jeeze, the Boxster has 9.9 cu ft of trunk space, the Corvette Coupe has 22 cu ft (I have problems accepting that number) and the 600h has 11.7. Gimmee a break!

gtoskyline

haha... no wonder idele hinted that you are lack of knowledge about hybrid. 385lb.ft is the torque of the detuned 5.0L v8 engine. Only Lexus Engineers know the exact number after adding the electric motor with maximum torque @ 0 rpm.

Another example for you, with 292hp/267lb.ft 3.5L v6 + electric motor, the heavier GS450h has better midrange acceleration performance than 360hp/360lb.ft 550i and 382hp/391lb.ft E550.

What is the torque number do you expect from a detuned 5.0L v8? Benz's 5.5L v8 has only 382/391 lb.ft

tagman

the new tech is in smog control . . . it makes EPA happy, but not car nuts.

How you can suggest that the minor emissions control of the new diesel is anything even remotely near the emissions control of the hybrid is beyond me. There's enough plumbing, wires, motors, sensors, computer chips, software, and components and batteries to make any car nut die a slow death from having to deal with all that crap.

The other point about comparing models is based on the alternative powerplant. The hybrid or the diesel powerplant alternatives are going to have different power ratings, with regards to torque and HP in every case. Why don't you come up with a universal equation that tells us wht the relative cost per HP should be in each of the models? Then go ahead and factor in the torque, and build a graph indicating the relative ratio between the torque and the HP. After that, I'll just tell you difference in the base price between the gas model and the alternative powerplant, without regard for its power, because it doesn't matter, since that's the way it's available.

For example, if a gas camry costs X, and the hybrid costs Y, then Y - X is the difference we are after. If the gas E-
class costs X, and the diesel E-Class costs Y, then Y - X is the difference. It's that simple and we don't need to get so sophisticated that there is ultimately no real observable difference to contend with.

The power difference is not relevant because there are variations to the theme. Sometimes the power will be more, and sometimes less. For example, I do not know the exact specification of the upcoming V-8 GL Vision BlueTec, but it is likely to have MORE power than the gas alternative, and we do not know the price premium yet. Other alternatives will have less power and not more. It's up to the buyer to determine if the gas mileage is worth it. Because, in the end, the relationship of the power to the fuel economy is largely what is driving the whole decision anyway.

To get to the bottom line now, the up charge for hybrids, in general has been too expensive to ever recoupe the premium, and this is according to Consumer Reports and almost every other rag that has taken the time to calculate it. The diesel alternative, however, will prove to be less of a premium hurdle to overcome.

The rest of our calculations are just an exercise to argue back and forth with. And frankly, I think many of the other posters are starting to get a chuckle out of this ping pong game.

bottom line = hybrids cost more than can be overcome by fuel savings most of the time.

TagMan

tagman

My lack of knowledge? Ha! You are merely motivated to insult me. Why the hostility, I'm not sure. My guess is that I have criticized the holy Lexus product. I guess the author of the Edmunds review must be on your hit list.
Heck, why don't you tell me, instead of me trying to guess. Why the hostility?

The article in Motor Trend clearly states that the Lexus engineers themselves are reluctant to attempt to quote any torque figures for the electric motors, and it indicates further that the torque (whatever number that might be!) of the electric motors is greatest at 0 RPM!!!!

Do you really expect me to know more than the Lexus engineers who designed the LS600hL hybrid drive system?

What's your whole point? That I asked a question earlier instead of looking it up myself. I couldn't remember the number when I was posting. Gosh, that doesn't mean anything!... unless, of course, you want to make it into something.

The information speaks for itself. The electric motors obviously assist the 385 pounds of engine torque from the 5.0L engine, but it apparently can't be accurately calculated, as it varies at different RPMs.

I would consider that the amount of assist those electric motors provide is a variable number, and thus cannot be exactly stated. Don't you agree?

Tell me... do YOU know just how much assist those motors provide?

The C & D link that you so quickly posted, which I originally provided earlier in this forum for everyone to read, shows the torque as 385. Obviously those C & D folks once again know nothing!... because they have failed to consider the electric motors!... but then again, Lexus engineers have withheld that information, haven't they?

TagMan

brightness04

In case it's not obvious, I have been saying that hybrids represent a new technological potential, and diesels are playing from a field of very mature technology, without much performance potential left. You were the one who argued that the diesel is all new; then I pointed out that, what's new is in emission control, not engine performance components. If now you want to argue that wires and chips are bad, that's a whole different ball game, and you'd be thoroughly wrong, again. BMW and Porsche engines don't get to where they are today without very sophisticated wiring and chips.

The hybrid or the diesel powerplant alternatives are going to have different power ratings, with regards to torque and HP in every case. . . Then go ahead and factor in the torque, and build a graph indicating the relative ratio between the torque and the HP

hmm, you know, horsepower and torque are related through a very simple equation: horsepower = torque x rpm (mutiplied by a common factor if not using SI units; the factor is 1/5454 if we use bhp, lb-ft and 1/minute as units respectively). Horsepower is what ultimately matters because it encapsulates torque, especially since we are using 7-speed or 8-speed trannies nowadays if not CVT to keep engine in optimum rpm. Diesels traditionally had a low end torque advantage over gasoline engines because gasoline engines need to rev up to deliver power superior to diesels before getting through the reduction gear box (trasmission) and generate more wheel torque than diesels. Hybrids don't have that problem because electric motors' 0-rpm torque is far greater than that of any internal combustion engine . . . which is why internal combustion engines, including diesels, are all initially cranked by an electric motor called starter. Internal combustion engines stall below a threshold rpm because they don't generate enough torque below that threshold rpm to keep themselves running.

The bottom line is that you are fudging with numbers big times to draw your conclusions. MB cars using the 3-liter (not 3.2 liter) "320D Bluetec" engines cost $6000 or more than comparable cars using comparable gasoline engines (3 liter "280" gasoline engine, not the 3.5-liter "350" gasoline engines), and still deliver less power than "280" gasoline engines. . . whereas Lexus GS450 delivers more power than GS430 gasoline engine and cost within $2000 or less.

brightness04

The article in Motor Trend clearly states that the Lexus engineers themselves are reluctant to attempt to quote any torque figures for the electric motors, and it indicates further that the torque (whatever number that might be!) of the electric motors is greatest at 0 RPM!!!!

Do we need Motor Trend to tell us that 1+1 = 2?? Electric Motors follow Faraday's Law . . . which means the torque is near-constant from 0rpm all the way through its peak power output. The reason why electric motor torques are not usually quoted along side IC engine torque is because the two outputs are fed through different reduction gear boxes before being fed through the common HSD gear box (if at all; some other manufacturers talk about feeding electric motor torque directly to the wheels). What matters is wheel torque, not engine torque (because electric motors will beat any IC, including diesels, for 0-rpm ultimate low-end torque any time of the day; electric motors don't need to rev up to deliver massive amount of torque). The amount of wheel torque that comes from the electric motors is simply the electric motors' peak horsepower divided by the wheel rpm (minus some minor parasitic loss just like in any other drivetrain).

tagman

The bottom line is that you are fudging with numbers big times to draw your conclusions. MB cars using the 3-liter (not 3.2 liter) "320D Bluetec" engines cost $6000 or more than comparable cars using comparable gasoline engines (3 liter "280" gasoline engine, not the 3.5-liter "350" gasoline engines), and still deliver less power than "280" gasoline engines. . . whereas Lexus GS450 delivers more power than GS430 gasoline engine and cost within $2000 or less.

If you are saying that the powertrain alternatives can not compare with the larger gas engines, then your whole argument about the LS600hL, which is a smaller alternative, should not be compared to the V-12s, which we both know darned well is what has been happening.

So, it makes more sense to me that the engine alternatives can be compared depending upon how they are utilized by the manufacturer. In other words, a Camry hybrid can compare to a Camry non-hybrid, and an RX350 can compare to an RX400h, and an LS600hL can compare to an LS460L, and an E-Class 350 can compare to an E-Class 320 BlueTec. Then beyond that, there can be other comparisons, based upon other factors such as the class of car that the engine has been placed inside.

Now, you may not think it's a good idea, but EVERY auto magazine will make those types of comparisons, and so will most folks.

If now you want to argue that wires and chips are bad, that's a whole different ball game

The only reason I brought that up was that you were talking about car nuts... and we all know that most car nuts are not very fond of all the smog control devices that engines are plagued with nowadays. So, there's no need to misunderstand that one. We agree on the good, bad, and ugly nature of chips, sensors and software.

Your description of the hybrid is as though it has been beamed from the future. It's a freakin electric motor that is married to the gas engine. Sure, it takes good engineering to make it work as well as Toyota has done. No doubt about it. But let's not get carried away. The diesel engine has roots, yes, but the technology to make it cleaner and more efficient and to better tap its potential is modern and exciting.

Ever heard of the sterling engine? Old design, right? But suddenly, and recently, it has been put to good use to produce energy in massive beta applications by electric producing companies. Pretty amazing little engine, being used in a very innovative fashion. Nothing new to you, perhaps... but like the diesel, a modern application that can suddenly make the world a much better place. And I have no problem with THAT.

TagMan

brightness04

If you are saying that the powertrain alternatives can not compare with the larger gas engines, then your whole argument about the LS600hL, which is a smaller alternative, should not be compared to the V-12s, which we both know darned well is what has been happening.

Not true at all. The LS600hL delivers the same amount of power as the BMW's 6.0L V12. Practically all the more powerful V12's in HELC's are turbo-charged V12's, which is a whole different ball game. Using the car racing rule of turbo being penalized by a factor of 1.4 in displacement, the 5.5 Liter turbo V12 in S600 should be compared to a 7.7 liter NA V16 or V18!

In other words, a Camry hybrid can compare to a Camry non-hybrid, and an RX350 can compare to an RX400h, and an LS600hL can compare to an LS460L, and an E-Class 350 can compare to an E-Class 320 BlueTec.

That's complete nonsense. Find me a E320D BlueTec with a 3.5Liter gasoline engine sitting in there in addition to the 3.0Liter diesel engine! At least find me an E320D that delivers more power than a E350 (one that is not broken down anyway ;-) Even if you compare the hybrid drive train to a turbo charger, even you should know that 911 Turbo and 911 NA are two different cars. RX400H was introduced at a time when regular RX had 330, not 350. Camry hybrid should be compared to Cambry V6 not I4 because of the superior peak power output and especially superior low-speed torque. In all instances, the hybrids deliver more power than the base gasoline engined car from which the hybrid is derived from. The "320" in E320 has nothing to do with the "350" series of engine, not even the "280" in the series. It delivers less power than even the "280" Therefore you are comparing apples to oranges if you comapare the "320D" to "350"; even the "280" is nearly 10% superior to the "320D Bluetec" in power output! Guess what? C350 is $5000 more than C280 for those 40 extra horsepowers (268 vs. 228), so a gasoline V6 C class with 208hp should be $2500 less than C280 . . . or $7500 less than C350. The price difference for E class application should be even greater. So the 208hp E320D is at least $8500 more expensive than a comparable E class gasoline car.

What about Sterling Engines? My dad wrote his Master's thesis on Sterling Engines when I was going through elementary school over two decades ago, and I helped him sorting the papers and diagrams, so I probably know far more about Sterling Cycle than you do . . . not sure how that relates to what we are discussing here. The diesel engine application has not changed at all in the E320DBluetec . . . it's still driving the car mechanically, just like it did in the last century, right? When it drives a generator and the car becomes electrically driven like modern cruise ships, that might be considered a new application. Still no sure how that relates to the discussion at hand. Methinks you are just grasping :-)

tagman

Not true at all. The LS600hL delivers the same amount of power as the BMW's 6.0L V12. Practically all the more powerful V12's in HELC's are turbo-charged V12's, which is a whole different ball game. Using the car racing rule of turbo being penalized by a factor of 1.4 in displacement, the 5.5 Liter turbo V12 in S600 should be compared to a 7.7 liter NA V18!

Sure, but from what I understand you are picking on the ONLY one (BMW) that it closely compares to, as the others blow it (LS600hL) away. So, what's the story then... you are now saying that it's OK to include electric motors, but NOT OK to include turbos when making these comparisons?

That's complete nonsense........Therefore you are comparing apples to oranges

Nonsense? Better tell that to EVERONE else. The comparison like Edmunds, Motor Trend, C & D, and others have made between the LS600hL and its counterpart, the LS460L, is natural and yes, it is like comparing apples and oranges, but it is going to happen, so it's not nonsense.

Heck, in the May '07 issue of Car & Driver, they compare the E350 to the E320 BlueTec... so, again, don't tell me it is nonsense.

What about Sterling Engines?.....Still no sure how that relates to the discussion at hand. Methinks you are just grasping

Grasping? I guess you missed the point, then, which was that you inferred the diesel was "old" and the hybrid was "new", yet I pointed out that the hybrid's main component is the electric motor(s), combined with a gasoline engine. Those components are not new. It's the APPLICATION of those components that is new. In a sense, I was explaining that "old" technology can become "new" based upon a "new" application, such as the way diesels are suddenly going from dirty engines to some of the cleanest the world has ever seen! The sterling engine has been around for a long time, but is suddenly being used as a component in a new application, a very innovative energy producing technology. That was the point you didn't understand... that "old" becomes "new" depending upon its application... like the electric motors of the hybrid.

TagMan

brightness04

you are now saying that it's OK to include electric motors, but NOT OK to include turbos when making these comparisons?

It's an electrically assisted V8 that delivers V12 performance. Turbo-charged V12's are a different ball game altogether (see the 1.4x car racing rule mentioned above). In case it's not obvious, BMW's 438hp V12 and Audi's 450hp V12 (marginal difference in power) are both 6.0 Liters, bigger than the MB 5.5L V12 that got more power only due to turbo charging.

The comparison like Edmunds, Motor Trend, C & D, and others have made between the LS600hL and its counterpart, the LS460L, is natural and yes, it is like comparing apples and oranges

So long as you understand it's apples to oranges comparison, I'm fine with that. What's next? Comparing E class to Civic? Darn, I thought I was pushing it when I compared E class to ES. BTW, the same publishers also compare E550 to E350, S600 to S550, and 550 to 535 in revewing the respective new car line-up's. That's called model enumeration; not implication of the two cars being equal.

I was explaining that "old" technology can become "new" based upon a "new" application, such as the way diesels are suddenly going from dirty engines to some of the cleanest the world has ever seen!

What new application would that be? The application is still driving cars mechnically. The cleanest (dirty diesel) the world has ever seen? It's still banned in the most important luxury car buying markets (California and Northeast) because . . . it's dirty! The "clean diesel" is still vaporware as of 2007.

lexusguy

That's complete nonsense. Find me a E320D BlueTec with a 3.5Liter gasoline engine sitting in there in addition to the 3.0Liter diesel engine! At least find me an E320D that delivers more power than a E350 (one that is not broken down anyway Even if you compare the hybrid drive train to a turbo charger, even you should know that 911 Turbo and 911 NA are two different cars.

Oh come on brightness, you know how diesels work. Don't try to prove a point by insulting your own intelligence. You can't use horsepower as the only metric for comparing the performance of a diesel to a gas engine. Try to race an E320CDI at a stoplight in your E280. See what happens.

lexusguy

Grasping? I guess you missed the point, then, which was that you inferred the diesel was "old" and the hybrid was "new", yet I pointed out that the hybrid's main component is the electric motor(s), combined with a gasoline engine. Those components are not new. It's the APPLICATION of those components that is new.

Actually, the hybrid car is more than 80 years old. I am currently in LA on business, and I stopped by the Petersen auto museum. There, they had the first gas-electric hybrid car, from 1918 if I remember correctly, back when Toyota only made looms. It was a sales flop because it was too heavy and too slow...

brightness04

It depends on how fast the race gets, how far the next stop light is, and how willing is the E280 driver to dump clutch in a manual. Horsepowers are horsepowers; that's what gets put to the pavement unless the transmission is really poorly designed. Like I mentioend before, traditionally diesel has one leg up on gassers in low speed because gassers have to rev up higher in order to bring out the superior hp. Hybrids don't have that problem. Hybrid 0-rpm ultimate low-end torque actually is superior to even diesel.

lexusguy

"Built in Chicago, Illinois, the Woods Dual Power featured a four-cylinder engine coupled to an electric motor-generator, which could be operated separately or together. But instead of embodying all of the advantages of gasoline cars with those of electric cars, the Woods embodied all of their respective disadvantages. It was heavy, slow, expensive to buy, complicated to operate, and difficult to service. These attributes prevented the Woods Dual Power from achieving commercial success and the model was produced only in 1917 and 1918."

From the Petersen Museum

brightness04

Ferdinand Porsche also tried his hand on hybrid tanks, with limited success. The real break throughs for hybrids in the most recent decade are battery technology, regenerative braking and computer drive train management . . . all of which are significant drive-train breakthroughs.

lexusguy

It depends on how fast the race gets, how far the next stop light is, and how willing is the E280 driver to dump clutch in a manual. Horsepowers are horsepowers; that's what gets put to the pavement unless the transmission is really poorly designed.

You're REALLY reaching here, and you're still incorrect. 0-60 for the E280: 7.3. E320CDI: 6.8. E350: 6.9. Whoa, what happened here? The E350 with its big horsepower advantage loses to the poor 'ol turbo diesel????

drfill

Correction: Sure, but from what I understand you are picking on the ONLY one (BMW) that it closely compares to, as the others blow it (LS600hL) away.

Sorry, but as I posted earlier, the V12 Audi and the LS600hL have virtually the same times to 100 MPH and in the quarter mile. :surprise:

So the only one that has a noticable advantage would be the boosted V12.

One more advantage brought up in the early drives is the hybrid does also help in NVH at idle, and at low speeds, being approx. twice as quiet as a comparable sedan (according to Lexus).

DrFill

tagman

One more advantage brought up in the early drives is the hybrid does also help in NVH at idle, and at low speeds, being approx. twice as quiet as a comparable sedan (according to Lexus).

BTW, yes the Audi as well as the Bimmer... that's true.

And as far as the QUIET goes, I doubt very much that there is another car in this class (or ANY class, for that matter)that is as quiet as the LS600hL. But the LS460L probably comes close.

TagMan

tagman

This SUV looks terrific. Sure, I could find some reasons to complain about it, and I will, I promise, but it's got some really nice features that carry over from the LS line, and some features that no one has used before in any vehicle.

Here's a link to that long extensive video you can watch, if you haven't already seen it:

link title

Gas Mileage? Probably not very good.

TagMan

ljflx

My next suv - next December (2008).

tagman

This is according to a Lexus exec. For all of you that wondered what the powerplant would be, this answers the question.



Here's the short article:

link title

TagMan

tagman

My next suv - next December (2008).

I'll look it over real good, because I'm expecting to replace the wife's '06 MDX with something more substantial. I've got my eye on the '08 Mercedes GL Vision BlueTec, with the huge V-8 Diesel, that should deliver in the neighborhood of 24 mpg. It also has factory-installed twin color monitors in the back of the headrests (where I prefer them), and all sorts of latest features.

The LX570 will be beautiful, but I'm guessing it will get 13 mpg, almost HALF that of the Mercedes. Also that Vision BlueTec is supposed to have over 500 lbs of torque, and a gigantic tow capacity.

I'll look at both, but the BlueTec V-8 is appealing.



Here's the info on the GL Vision BlueTec, if anyone is interested:

link title

TagMan

drfill

Like the competition (Ford GT, F430, Gallardo). A hybrid engine doesn't lend itself to a paddle-shifting transmission, much less a amanual. This is not good news.

That picture is not representative of what the car currently looks like.

This is LF-A 1.0. I have seen LF-A 2.0 in the flesh. VERY impressive!

Regarding the GL vs. LX, the GL should be better. I am a big fan of it, and economy is definitely at another level.

Surprised Lexus hasn't made any progress on the HPX concept, which would be anatural GL competitor. It's at least 18 months away.

DrFill

ms09

I am impressed with the features.

The features r much more than a cayenne or x5,

lx570 features r like a sedan car,hope it drives like 1.

tagman

lx570 features r like a sedan car,hope it drives like 1

The presentation from Lexus suggests that it will have a ride that is superior to most SUVs, and I believe it. The LX570 video that I provided a link to, is very informative.

TagMan

tagman

Surprised Lexus hasn't made any progress on the HPX concept, which would be anatural GL competitor. It's at least 18 months away.

Goodness, Lexus is finally getting off their butts, and making some drastic changes... for the good I might add. Give them a chance to catch their breath.

Yes, the GL420 Vision BlueTec is going to be a phenomenal vehicle. I actually offered to place a deposit in advance last week, but the salesman said it was too early. I hope he is right. I think they will sell out quickly, at least here in California.

TagMan

ms09

Yes i just saw it

ljflx

The GL would be my first choice this year but drops to second once that LX is out. I drove the GL a few months back and loved it.

ms09

aren't u guys r making the decision tooo early to get the gl blue tec. i am sure when it comes there will be more competition

tagman

If I was choosing between two gas models, I would actually consider that the LX570 could very well be the number one choice, but the Vision BlueTec is so compelling. My wife puts on 20,000 - 25,000 miles a year! With diesel fuel now priced well under regular, I see the gas savings as being meaningful here. Maybe I'm focusing too much on it, but it just jumps out there. I mean that big SUV will get better mileage than the new LS600hL hybrid! And do so in style!

TagMan

tagman

aren't u guys r making the decision tooo early to get the gl blue tec. i am sure when it comes there will be more competition

I don't think so. The Vision is scheduled to come out VERY soon, as is the LX570. What else would compare to THOSE beauties?

TagMan

tagman

Read the blurb here: link title



WOW, that's a lot of punch for the C-Class. But, I've been saying all along that the NEW one will be a BIG hit!

TagMan

ms09

ok then, So tagman ur going for the gl. got any info when the next gen rx is coming?

I've heard lexus is planning to make a crossover not sure???

ms09

cl class i think its the best looking coupe.just amazing

drfill

They also seem to be ready to muddy the issue by offering a V8 and 3rd row seat on the next RX, for reasons I don't know.

Essentially, the RX could add another level that would cannibalize GX sales, for example.

I think the GX days are numbered, and a crossover will appear in 2008-9.

DrFill

ljflx

GX sells very well. I don't know about it's days being numberred. It's a very high satisfaction vehicle and has high retention value and is easy to make plus it's a big profit maker because of platform sharing. I think the success of the GX, and the failure of the R class have, in conjunction, delayed the HPX as that vehicle would be logical in the GX space.

I think it's also clear that the Landcruiser is now a derivative of the LX rather than vice versa. It;s actually been that way ever since Lexus made serious limo like ride improvements in 1998 but most still thought of it the other way around.

ljflx

"aren't u guys r making the decision tooo early to get the gl blue tec. i am sure when it comes there will be more competition"

I have no desire whatsoever for a diesel. Tag seems to want them badly and is the expert.

drfill

The GX sales are in a steady, significant decline, after a strong two years, and crossovers are obviously the future of this class, with the GL and SRX being major players.

The GX has not slowed the Escalade at all either. I understand it's a cheap, high-value turnover to work the 4Runner chassis, but it is a stopgap move. The future is making larger RXs, which obviously is what the market is gravitating towards.

Other makers are seeing the RX fly out of showrooms, and beating Lexus to the punch of making bigger RXs!

If they sell 80-100k Rxs, they could've sold 40-50k HPXs, no problem. The GX has never moved above 30-35k. It's too narrow inside, and tall to get into.

Lexus hasn't made many mistakes recently, but this is one of them. :sick:

DrFill

tagman

The GX is the affordable 7-seater Lexus. I don't recommend killing it. I do recommend trying to modernize it a bit, however, and borrowing a few of those nifty new features from the upcoming LX570.

TagMan

tagman

I have no desire whatsoever for a diesel. Tag seems to want them badly and is the expert.

I just talked to my Mercedes guy, and he now tells me that he misunderstood me in our last conversation about the BlueTec. It seems he does NOT know when the V-8 Vision BlueTec will be available. It's the 6-cylinder diesel that's coming in the fall, not the 8. I am bummed out. I know that the 8 will come, but I get so tired of waiting forever for the diesel of choice in the United States.

He also mentioned that there are no plans for a diesel in the C-Class in this country. Darn... those Europeans get all the fun!

Oh well, we've waited this long, what's an extra 6 months to a year? :sick:

TagMan

lexusguy

The GX is the affordable 7-seater Lexus. I don't recommend killing it.

It's not a very good 7-seater though. The 3rd row is definitely little kids only. I think the writing is very much on the wall for body-on-frame lux SUVs (and mainstream SUVs as well, to a lesser extent). The GX seems crude compared to the Q7 or GL.

tagman

I'm all for improvement that will provide the proper 3rd row fold-flat seats... everyone knows my position on THAT. But to kill the vehicle?... modification and improvement, just the way the LX470 will become the LX570, is the way to go, IMO. A new improved and revised GX470, or called the GX570, or whatever, would be smart.

TagMan

brightness04

IMHO, clean and smooth-running diesels that delivery massive power output is a bit like the joke about fuel cell cars in the industry: heralded for decades but never materialized as a feasible production model. Sure, both vaporware will become reality some day (assuming that's not after their windows of opportunity are closed), but for now, none of us can buy cars that are either not made or not available for sale in our own jurisdictions because they are dirty.