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Steady upswing? Why would Toyota need to use incentives on the Prius then? You don't hear so much about those 6 month+ waits and people paying over sticker anymore. I don't really know much about the figures for the Civic and Camry hybrids and RX400, but the GS450h and Honda Accord hybrid are royal flops. The Escape and Vue hybrids are both heavy and slow, with mediocre fuel economy. There's evidence that hybrid "growth" is over.
(You should not comment on this post. It is only a leftover of my thoughts
Regards,
Jose
1. ULSD is mandated (EPA), as in it's a LAW, at the retail end.
2. 20% of refining is still non-ULSD. That is sold for trains and shipping. Not for passenger retail.
3. There are some exemptions to ULSD for refiners, to allow some smaller refiners to mitigate the cost of changes. Currently there are only 2 small refiners who applied for and received that exemption before June 2006 which was the deadline for approval of exemptions. usgov.org.
4. There is a through-2010 regulation for states to comply. The only part of the country that is using that 2010 extension for passenger diesel is rural Alaska. All other parts of the country switched in Oct 2006.
5. Clean diesel (more accurately described now as passenger diesel- after all it is the law) is a reality. Honda, BMW, Audi, MB have all announced that they are bringing vehicles using 'clean' diesel to market in the 2009 MY- that's next year. Subaru is developing a boxer-diesel.
6. Passenger diesel previously in this country was dirty, loud and unpopular. Nothing changes that history.
7. Clean passenger diesel is a reality, it has taken time to develop it in this country. The problems that CA has with smog (btw- passenger fleet is
8. Diesel generates less HP. No doubt about it. Diesel engines have always generated less HP but the engine does generate more torque (what the transmission does with it from there is up to the transmission). Lower HP may be reason enough to damn diesels in the context of high speed buyers. That's great, it's all choice.
9. Diesel has 30% better fuel consumption. If that is more important than top end speed, that's great too.
Amen. Doesn't anyone have a pick for American Idol and Dancing With the Stars? Here's mine:
Idol: Melinda
Dancing: Laila
:shades:
Dance-Joey..though I like watching Laila more!!
Also how about a survey? Who would win in a fist fight, Laila or Tagman? My pick..Laila.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Guys side - I actually think Phil has the best pipes. I'd find it hard to keep a station on that had a Chris or Blake song playing. On stage though they are entertaining. Daughtry's Dead or Alive last year blew away Chris' rendition last night. That's about the size of the talent gap that existed with last years male finalists IMO.
Don't watch Dancing.
Dman - we are really becoming yentas now.
The RX400h is still selling 1500 a month, even after the RX350 matched it in power! Highlander sales are even higher! :surprise:
Camry Hybrid sels 4-5k a month.
Prius has option package discounts and a lease program. It's not a Dodge Ram! Prius sales are up almost 75% YTD!
Just because there is no waiting list, doesn't mean sales are slow. :confuse:
DrFill
WE? No... You did the crazy math that most have shown to be defective.
Let's see here. The Prius gets 46 mpg with even the stricter '08 ratings, which is 25 mpg better than the LS600hL, which gets 21mpg by the '08 rating. The S600 gets 13 with '08 rating. That means that the LS600hL gets 8 mpg better than the S600, while the Prius gets 21 mpg better than the LS600hL. So you think that 8 mpg is better than 21mpg???!!! :sick:
Using percentage terms, which always exaggerate the perception of an answer, we still find the same result! the Prius achieves over a 100% improvement over the LS600hL, and the LS600hL achieves 61% better mpg than the S600... so you still think that 61% is better than over 100%??!! :sick:
Your math has ZERO credibility with me and anyone who takes a good look at it. That's why most posters have been finding huge errors in your methods of calculation, and few can agree with it.
Bluetec is an empty marketing term that can mean whatever MB claims it to mean depending on the latest hiccup.
The diesel alliance will likely share the BlueTec name to achieve broader recognition of the fact that the modern diesels will be environmentally friendly and clean... and BTW, "batteries not included" 'cause they aren't necessary.
BMW will likely use its own designation.
The fact that you are no longer even mentioning high performance claims regarding diesel goes to show the validity of my earlier statements.
When you start to read the towing capacity of the diesels, and compare them to hybrids, you will understand something more about performance and power. In addition, you have already been reminded of the improved performance of the modern diesels by other posters numerous times. Maybe you can't remember.
Do you really believe that everyone else is wrong, and only you are right? Better re-check your math.
TagMan
I agree that this is unfortunately turning into a large diesel debate. The reason is that anytime someone posts something that brightness disagrees with, he responds by using false statements. I could stand by and let it go, but since his posts are so full of twisted math and untrue statements, I find myself compelled to post the truth, as I see you have attempted very well.
For example, these are just some of the recent false statements from brightness on this forum:
-He stated that the clean diesel can not happen!
-He stated that the LS600hL gets better mileage compared to an S600 than the Prius does to an LS600hL!
-He stated that 0-60 times do not matter.
-He stated that torque is irrelevant!
-He stated that an E320 vs. E350 comparison has no validity.
...and many more, as you know.
THAT represents the tip of the iceberg.
I completely appreciate you approach to laying out the FACTS!
TagMan
BTW, remember the whole Hyundai tries to go lux arguement?
I buy your theory that they are actually positioning against the Avalon, perhaps 300, crowd but I have to tell you, every tv ad that Hyundai is showing pits them up against Land Rover (Vera Cruz), Lexus (not sure which model) and BMW 5 (Sonata I think)!!
That looks like a pretty concerted effort to try muscling in on those buyers. Maybe they want to just point out the feature/ content but the ads strike me as a funny approach.
The thing about the Genesis is that it is a bit uncharted. It appears that it might be so much car for the money that it is hard to recognize its potential. I'm sure Hyundai doesn't want to sell it short, but at the same time need to be cautious that they don't over-reach too far. Then again, the name Hyundai has only so much clout... but how much is a question.
Even with my advertising degree, I have to wonder what the best approach is... to clobber the obvious, or to reach into new territory where it could either backfire or have tremenodus rewards.
I hope they pull it off. It's a fresh contender that is offering a genuine value. The question is, which segment does it REALLY belong in?
TagMan
I guess after 4 degrees and 15 years of higher education makes me obsolete, nonetheless, not smart enough to know a good thing when I see it.
So this subject matter is closed for me. The E320 CDI is great. I know it , you know it. A few here are twisting a bunch of C&D's words and spitting a few equations. That's all fine to make a sloppy point. But having driven the car, I know how to separate fact from hypocrisy.
Next subject please....
If Hyundai can do it and actually deliver the quality and reliability necessary, what does it say about the prices being asked by BMW/ Lexus/ Audi/ MB?
I get the labor cost issue but is that really enough? Or are they taking a bath and throwing out a loss-leader with the goal of buying big into the market?
Thank goodness they're not making a diesel....
How about the Sopranos and 24? ;-)
I hear the frustration. The problem is not in Brightness' math it's that he sometimes bails from the math and jumps to inaccurate conclusions IMO. I want to challenge him on some of the statements he made about horsepower and torque but I don't have the time or interest right now. Also, the point he made about fuel usage comparing the 600h and S600 is accurate, but his point about its significance is specious IMO.
Anyway, do the Sopranos go out in a blaze of glory or does it stay open-ended. I say the latter.
Houdini, perhaps Laila could kick the spit out of all of us.
Ljflx, we're not really yentas in the true sense of the word, just car yentas. Now if we were all gathered at a senior citizen center yapping behind the back of a member who couldn't make it that day, then we'd be yentas.
Maybe start talking about diesel infrastructure? Limited availability would make me hesitate.
Stay loose guys.
;-)
Hard numbers and scientific reasoning are nothing compared to your personal feelings.
Yes, next subject sounds good to me also. I need to heal my battle scars.
TagMan
I have not disputed one thing that C&D has said about the E-Class, nor have I seen anyone else do so. I think the thing here is that it was pointed out by a particular poster that such a comparison between the E350 and the E320 BlueTec was absurd and that the E320 wasn't even as good an E280, which can't even be purchaed here.
It was at that point that I referenced the C&D article as proof that the comparison was legitimate. Now, why would I have been the one to bring up the C&D comp, if I wasn't comfortable with it to begin with? Think about that!!
TagMan
Very unsettled. And the motivation for change comes and goes like ever-changing weather.....
Oil prices high = need to be less depedant on foreign oil, and let's buy a gas mizer.
Oil prices get a tad lower while we adjust to the general rise in prices = everything's fine, let's go look at that big SUV we've always wanted.
Eventually, the whole thing will shake out, and the improvements in technology will help no matter which way it goes. I'm not really concerned about it. There are plenty of good choices in the marketplace, that's for sure.
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
TagMan
Every place I currently buy gasoline sells diesel, and on the highway (road trips) it's even easier.
At least in my part of the country, this is not an issue.
Prices aren't great though, generally a little more than premium.
Here in my area in California, diesel fuel is not only easy to get but it is now CHEAPER than regular gas. That makes the upcoming diesels even more tempting.
TagMan
For the experienced and responsible driver I think a medium to large SUV is also very safe. Just my opinion.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Is that ULSD or normal diesel?
Normal diesel, or better known as S500, is no longer legal in California. We're only allowed to have ULSD, known as S15, here in California... so yes, ULSD.
TagMan
Here you go:
Diesel Fuels Questions and Answers (CHEVRON)
Diesel Fuel (EPA)
TagMan
FWIW its always puzzled me why Detroit didn't offer small four cylinder diesels in all the natural applications like smallish SUVs to include the Jeeps favored by Rural Delivery mailmen and larger 6 cylinder diesels in larger SUVs. An Expedition is just crying out for a civilized diesel.
Luxury sedan, without a doubt. The flagship luxury sedan will be more likely to avoid the accident in the first place thanks to shorter braking distances and better handling, it will be much less likely to roll, and if an accident is unavoidable, its superior build quality and state of the art safety tech should keep the occupants safe. There's no way an SUV could match an S-class or LS in passive and active safety.
I don't think the math shown by Brightness is defective. For the most part I think it is quite informative if you gave a serious look at the details.
I know, these calculations gave me headaches when I first read them too because there are many, but re-reading his posts usually clear things up. Just look at an example below, there is nothing wrong with these cals:
caculations conservative. Now with 20mpg, we have:
12,000 / 20 = 600 (gallons)
12,000 / 12 = 1000 (gallons for S600)
1000 - 600 = 400 (gallons in difference)
600 - 400 = 200 (gallons in the fuel budget of a car that would save 400 gallons again as much off an LS600HL)
12,000 / 200 = 60 (mpg, the fuel economy of such a miser would have to have)
From all the postings he's made, I personally would not want to get into a number crunching argument with him.
At least in my part of the country, this is not an issue.
There's no diesel fuel in my immediate area. You have to go onto the interstate highways. Plenty of people around here have lengthy commutes without a pump to be found or without having to go off the beaten path. I don't know how easy this is to remedy or what the motivation is for gas stations to implement them. I seem to remember a lot more diesel pumps in the early 80s. Two of my colleagues back then had MB 300Ds. But with the dearth of pumps in many area pockets I don't know what the motivation would be to buy a diesel car. I would certainly consider one but not in the current state of fuel availability in my area.
If the diesels don't sell very well and the demand doesn't increase significantly, it won't be a good indicator of things to come with regards to diesels.
Very possibly, the diesels will represent a short-term alternative that some of the manufacturers can offer as competition against the hybrids that are now on the market, at least until they can offer competing hybrids, which so far they haven't been able to do.
And that's a very big problem for many of these manufacturers... they have essentially NOTHING to compete with the Toyota/Lexus hybrids. By the time they do, the next generation hybrids will come out from Toyota/Lexus and set a new standard that will once again send the competition back to the drawing boards.
As I posted on the LS600hL forum, this cycle is a huge advantage for Toyota/Lexus and their dominance in this arena can only be battled by the other manufacturers leapfrogging the Toyota products... and that is a big question as whether they can EVER catch up!
TagMan
Here's the full story and sales data chart:
Mercedes-Benz USA Reports April 2007 New Vehicle Sales
TagMan
DrFill
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460