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http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/01/autos/diesels/index.htm?postversion=2007050312
In it is buried this little gem:
"Mercedes-Benz, for example, will soon be selling diesel versions of its M-class, R-class and GL-class SUVs here and will be phasing out the E320 diesel sedan it currently sells here."
Not sure how accurate the reporting is, as the bulk of the article is full of nonsense as usual for general-purpose publications. The poor attempt at explaining the physics behind why diesel engines are more fuel efficient than gasoline einges is laughable. If the difference were due to fuel difference, diesel engines would obviously produce more CO2 because the C atom to H atom ratio is higher in diesel than in gasoline. The author apparently never heard of the relationship between compression and temperature (PV=nRT), and therefore implied in the article that diesels rely on glow plugs for combustion (i.e. like spark ignition gasoline engines) . . . obviously from there he was unable to realize that diesel efficiency comes from high combustion temperature.
Seeing his rather flimsy grasp on reality and accuracy, I don't know how accurate it is regardig his allegation that all these manufacturers are coming up with 50-sate legal diesel cars soon (no firm dates mentioend except for BMW by the end of 2008) . . . or for that matter the phasing out of E320D mentioned above. If the latter does happen, I can't say I'm surprised. SUV's and trucks have less stringent emission standards . . . and like I said before, utilizing heavy and expensive fuel saving technogies on the big heavy fuel guzzlers makes more sense anyway.
Correct, here is the press release
A good look at one's self is not a bad thing, IMO.
I exempt no one, including myself, with that reply, of course... in case someone should think I have singled you out!... which I have, since you provided the original post! :P
Now... with regards to the CNN article you posted:
This was part of your post in response to that article:
Seeing his rather flimsy grasp on reality and accuracy, I don't know how accurate it is regardig his allegation that all these manufacturers are coming up with 50-sate legal diesel cars soon
Do you realize that you used his technical accuracies and/or inaccuracies to invalidate everything he wrote in that article? Do you generally completely invalidate people when you discover that they have faults or make mistakes?... 'cause everyone does! Think about that... please do.
For goodness sakes, the CNN article was fine... There is absolutely no reason to pick at its technical accuracies or inaccuracies when the main point was never in jeopardy. I think it is safe to say that "the diesels are coming"... as the article points out. If you do not believe the author, then I suggest you call your local Mercedes store and find out how soon you can buy a BlueTec diesel-equipped Mercedes vehicle. I think you will be surprised as to how soon! Let me know what they say. Thanks.
TagMan
I did say in my title "take it with a grain of salt." That's why I gave the reason behind why I would take a big grain of salt for everything in that article. i.e. I'm not betting my own credibility behind that article.
That being said, if the article's one sanguine point about E320 Bluetec being phased out is true (a big if, like I said), that's certainly an interesting piece of information. If that's true, it means that MB has gone from blue urea injection tech to nothing-blue-tech but branded as "Bluetec" . . . and in results, from the promise of "clean high power diesel" to "clean but not so high power diesel," then onto "only clean enough for truck emission standards diesel." That's quite some giant steps backwards, well, typical of vaporware.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
www.mbusa.com/campaigns/alternative-fuels/index.do
Lets hope CNN tells them before they make too many
I'm rather unimpressed with MB sales and even less impressed with Audi. Reason is that I look at same car/suv (call it model) sales vs prior year and take out the new model. Basically if Walmart same store sales are not up and all the growth is coming from new stores the market is unimpressed. I view vehicle sales the same way. Take out the Q7 and Audi has a big problem vs last year. MB has advantages in their comparatives thru April because of the timing of the rollout of the GL last year but for the rest of 2007 MB does not have the advantage of having 1 or 2 more models vs prior year. Numerically they are now at a disadvantage vs 2006 because they had 2 new model intros in 2006 via the R and the GL and both will have waning sales vs prior year from now on (in all likelihood for the GL and definitely for the R). In fact if you looked at same model sales in 2006 to 2005 MB was down for the year a whole. It was only the two new models that put them in a growth mode.
For the rest of 2007 if MB holds flat to 2006 or surpasses it I'd label the year quite successful. But with the lack of any follow thru on the R and the likely slowdown of the S and GL that may be a stretch. This is of course purely based on volume. I'm sure MB was losing money on most of those R sales last year.
For those that are not familiar here, the 320 BLUETEC is a new 3.0-liter V6 turbodiesel engine producing 210 horsepower and 388 lb.-ft. of torque. It will, in fact, replace the in-line six found in the previous E320 CDI.
The BlueTec will utilize a number of exhaust catalyts in all states, and likely the optional urea solution for California and 4 other states. The amount of urea solution is so tiny that a very small tank will easily last long enough to go the distance between routine maintenance, so it really doesn't need to receive any more attention than an oil change. It's not the big deal that some have made it out to be.
Also, don't forget that the new C-Class will be upon us very soon, and from all the early reports and reviews, the new C-Class will be quite the star at Mercedes, with the model having two profiles... a lux version and a sport version, each with distinctively different grills. And, to really top off the new C, a 500 HP AMG variant... a genuine M3 competitor!
So... between the diesel models that are upcoming and the new C, which is a volume car, I think Mercedes bottom line will be OK... that is, provided they continue to make enough of the changes and improvements that are necessary.
TagMan
The new BMW 7-Series may very well be among the first to use it.
link title
TagMan
Interesting, ZF vs. Aisin. Based on how spectacular their 6-speed is, I would expect the ZF to be quite good. Note to Acura and Infiniti: 5-speeds aren't cutting it anymore. Even the Hyundai Genesis is going to use the 6-speed ZF. Three extra gears would go a long way towards fixing the VQ35's fuel efficiency problems.
Absolutely correct. Going by the perception only, IMO, a 3L V6 with 7-speeds is as good as a 4.3L V8 with 5-speeds.
Not true, according to the Mercedes website. According to the website, the inline six CDI will be replace by the V6 BlueTec.
Now, since you do not believe any of this is going to happen, I'm going to do some research and see if I can get some specific dates.
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Goodness, it's more complicated than I can keep track of, but here's the best I can do.
Well, according to the Mercedes dealer, the BlueTec engine makes its first appearance in the E-Class, and does indeed replace the E320 CDI... and it will do this first in 45 States. Later in 2008, a 50-state BlueTec version of the E-Class WILL be released.
Now, because the SUVs will adopt the BlueTec AFTER the E-Class, they will continue to be equipped with the CDI engines (in the 45 States) until later in 2008 when they will also make the engine switch to the BlueTec. Now at this same the CDIs make their final swith to the BlueTec, the 50-state compliant version will either make it's appearance or follow just shortly thereafter, at which point it can finally be said that the E-Class AND the SUVs will ALL be 50-State compliant with BlueTec engines.
So- essntially it's the E-Class first, and then the SUVs, and then 50-state versions to closely follow. Not quite as soon as I had hoped for, but definately warming up in the bullpen.
But, gosh! No wonder we're all so confused!!!
After hearing all this, I personally see all the 50-state versions being introduced in '08, but as '09 models.
Now, that's the best I can do for now. If something should change, I'll post it.
In the meantime, sleep tight brightness.
TagMan
;-)
D-man, if there are no diesel pumps near you at the time these vehicles are released, you shouldn't buy one. It wouldn't be worth it. It needs to be reasonably convenient, or why even bother? There will be plenty of great gas-powered or hybrid vehicles out there for you to choose from, don't you think?
TagMan
then, E-Class, GL, ML, and R = ALL BlueTec for '09
Not enough?
What do you think, lj? Does this spell trouble for MB?
TagMan
In case it's not obvious, inline six diesel was replaced with V6 diesel several months ago when the 2007 model was introduced in late 2006. What you have is old news. There is no new 3.0 V6 diesel to come to replace the current one. The V6 Bluetec was supposed to have the blue urea liquid injection to help reduce Nox emission . . . but the blue part never materialized in production car.
But NYC is a rather different place, in a lot of ways. For starters, most people don't drive at all. Parking costs a fortune & there are lots of other "unique" things to deal with.
Out West (sorry, couldn't resist), diesel is available routinely.
NO kidding! EVERY post I've made with regards to the V-6 replacement indicates that it is the replacement for the inline 6 CDI, without exception. In fact, the italics you quoted me shows that I said inline 6. You had originally posted to us all that it would NEVER happen! Well, it's happening and I've provided the best time line I possible could. Now, I'm staying with the latest timeline post I've made, unless my dealer gives me an update to change the info, or there is reliable news.
And PLEASE don't start telling us all that it isn't ever going to happen, and that we're NEVER going to see clean diesels! I've had enough of all that garbage already!
The V6 Bluetec was supposed to have the blue urea liquid injection to help reduce Nox emission
I am of the understanding that only the 50-state version may get the urea tank, and that is still not firmed up, although it seems that it will likely be the case. I understand that Mercedes decided to keep the BlueTec name for marketing purposes long before they knew what the final determination would be on the urea.
BTW, I didn't see you doing ANYTHING to get the facts straight, only shooting bulletts at any attempt that I, or anyone else, made to find out what the timeline is expected to be. All you did was complain about diesels and post equations, and try to point out any error you could find in someone else's post!!!!
Don't even THINK to start an argument with me over these diesels again, brightness. I won't have it!! :mad:
I really hope I'm coming in loud and clear here. You spent a LOT of time posting the doom and gloom of diesels, and you refused to acknowledge that they were even going to produce a BlueTec that will be 50-state compliant. Just because it isn't here at this very moment, doesn't mean it isn't coming soon. DROP IT ALREADY! If we don't see a 50-state compliant diesel from Mercedes Benz by the end of next calendar year, I'll send you a check, and if we do see one, you send me a check. Now the next question is how much do you want to bet?
TagMan
Regarding the diesels... it's still a non-event, IMO. It won't really start to matter until later next year.
You spent a LOT of time posting the doom and gloom of diesels, and you refused to acknowledge that they were even going to produce a BlueTec that will be 50-state compliant.
Check the current reality again. There still isn't a Bluetec E320 that is 50-state legal. You certainly spend a lot of time posting about hype and vaporware.
If you already know that Bluetec is an empty marketting term without anything blue behind it, what's so great about a dirty diesel that delivers mediocre power and is too dirty to be even sold in the most important luxury car market?
If "Bluetec" is an empty marketting badge that applies to diesels that can only be legally sold in 45 states for cars, and only legal in trucks for all 50 states, with no blue urea liquid behind it . . . all that despite the earlier promise of clean and powerful diesel thanks to blue urea liquid injection -- the original image behind "Bluetec" badging . . . isn't that classic vaporware?
If we don't see a 50-state compliant diesel from Mercedes Benz by the end of next calendar year, I'll send you a check, and if we do see one, you send me a check. Now the next question is how much do you want to bet?
I will only take the bet if it is in regard to a "clean and powerful diesel" as "Bluetec" originally promised. In other words, 300+hp in stock form (that's what GS450 delivers) and clean enough to sell in all 50 states in the sedan form under current emission regulations without special exemptions that may be introduced in the next 19 months; and sells more than 1000 copies in a month in the US so it's not a one-off car. It's pointless to talk about dirty diesels that are legal for trucks, or small 4-cyl diesels that can be made legal for cars without anything blue behind it, or engines that will require special exemption to be made legal. If I lose the bet, you can lease the car for two years at my expense, provided that if you lose you will pay me the full amount that I will incur for a two-year lease on a hybrid luxury car of my choice.
TagMan
Sorry, man, but it's just gone on way too long... even for me... and I usually have the patience for you.
This diesel discussion between you and I is officially OVER!
TagMan
For what it's worth, I never confused inline-6 diesel and V6. The current one is V6. You were the one who were under the illusiont that the current one is I6 diesel, and kept talking about the great upcoming V6 in the future tense.
I agree with u merce also has to raise its bar,to keep competing with lexus in the future.
Do you believe that there will be an updated version of, well let's see, say the E-class...even though it hasn't happened yet?
Do you really believe that 50-state clean diesel is NOT going to happen, even when all the automakers say it will?
Do you seriously believe there is an elaborate hoax being played by the automakers, with the connivance of some forum posters, to 'trick' all those folks out there into thinking that BMW, MB, Subaru, Honda and Audi are developing 50-state legal diesel when actually they are not??
What is your evidence that the automakers are NOT developing 50-state compliant diesel engines?
Which automakers have come out with a statement refuting that development?
What did I tell you? No more about the diesels with me. You are wrong with this post again. The inline 6 CDI is still a current product in the majority of diesel models from Mercedes Benz, and will be for a while (in 45 states). The future V6 we were talking about was for the 50-state compliant diesel, and it will be a V6.
Read my post that discusses the timeline information that I got from the dealer today. I posted that because there was a lot of confusion on the forum... we were all trying to sort it out. You never attempted to help, only to throw grenades while the rest of us were trying to understand the timeline. You are still confused, and instead of showing any appreciation for the effort I put forth to get that info today, you took it upon yourself to go back to some old posts and dig for anything you could use to launch more grenades.
The truth is, I don't care what you post on this anymore, so I remind you... it's OVER. You show no respect at all when you disregard my post to you informing you that the diesel discussion is over with us, yet you continue to push and push and push... it's pathetic.
Now, read this carefully, brightness... no more discussion with me about the diesel. UNDERSTAND?
TagMan
I agree with u merce also has to raise its bar,to keep competing with lexus in the future.
Well, you are coming in on the tail end of a previous thread.
I already know, as the rest of you do, that Lexus has hurt Mercedes Benz over the years, and will continue to do so. What I had posted a ways back was that I saw BMW being deliberately targeted by Lexus, and at the time there weren't that many folks who agreed. Now, as time goes by, we see the style similarity is not a coincidence, and we are starting to see Lexus models that are targeted directly at BMW models, and we will ultimately see BMW sales become affected.
Now that last statement is a big one, because BMW is huge, and no one believed me when I posted that BMW could be hurt by Lexus. Ljflx was the only one, if I recall, to give me any credibility for making that statement. To this day, I stick by that statement, and I still believe that eventually, we will see clearer evidence that my theory was, and is, correct.
Lexus still has Mercedes in their sights, but there is little doubt in my mind that they are after BMW, and they are now underway in the process of inflicting financial pain on BMW.
TagMan
I think there are different ways of measuring hurt. To me if you are the market leader and the sector is inflating fast (and this one certaiinly is) then you are hurt by losing your normal share of that growth. This is not something that shows up immediately as you can actually still have sales growth and lose ground. It's actually why looking at sales growth may be the worst thing to do. I liken it to a horse that runs the next furlong a second faster than the first but sees another horse run it 2 seconds faster. You may have sped up but you lost ground. This market share thing takes time to root and adjust the playing field but give it 5-10 years and it most certainly does. IMO the shift is well on its way. This doesn't mean that BMW won't be the sales leasder in the segment though it could indeed happen that way. It just means that BMW lost it's dominant control, a potential lofty sales level and could be overtaken at some point. Bottom line is that there's a lot more sharing of the segment going on these days.
I think that BMW still has it good overall at this point because neither Lexus or Infiniti has served up the proper market share horse vs the 5 series. In this segment Infiniti needs stature (and probably a halo car above it in the Q which has been MIA since day one) and Lexus needs to decide if it wants to be an E fighter or a 5 fighter. It sought of is stuck on the 50 yard line not deciding which way it should go. But inevitably both the M and GS will get it right and that's when Tag will really be able to crow about his prediction. Plus you also have Acura out there muddying up the playing field with some great cars of its own.
It's going to happen.
TagMan
The value of the prediction that the sun will rise tomorrow is critically dependent on the tomorrow part. The prediction that the sun will burn out some day, while technically true, is quite irrelevent to our lives.
The automakers have been working on fuel cells for decades, but it has no relevance to to our current purchase decisions. It has become an industry running joke that fuelcell will become reality someday. The clean and powerfule diesel is rapidly becoming just like that. Sure, the clean and powerful diesel will become reality some day, but not likely to be any time soon given what's happening lately.
Another obfuscation to cover up your errors. The discussion was on E320 diesel sedans, not diesel trucks. The only E320 diesel sedan current sold in the US is the E320 Bluetec. There is no I6 E320 even in he 2007 lineup.
You are still confused, and instead of showing any appreciation for the effort I put forth to get that info today, you took it upon yourself to go back to some old posts and dig for anything you could use to launch more grenades.
You are and were the one confused. I did not have to dig for old post at all. You were making mistakes in replying to my post within the last 24hrs, so I was addressing them. I do not appreciate your constant personal attacks. If you have an valid point of substance to make, try to make it without personal attacks.
Now, read this carefully, brightness... no more discussion with me about the diesel. UNDERSTAND?
There is no obligation for your to reply to any post of mine. If you'd like to address substance, feel free to do so, and I'm all ears. If you insist on throwing personal punches, don't be surprised to see them thrown back at you. If you want to stick to the bet that you asked for, let's do it. It's time to put up or shut up.
BMW makes sports sedans and coupes. Lexus doesn't. :confuse:
BMW sells a truckload of 3-series, that's the ONLY reason the IS was made. It's in no danger of usurping the 3, but it will skim off the top enough sales to make it worth Lexus' while.
Lexus targets sales, not makers. As long as they don't have to compromise their luxury status (like by selling cars under $30k), Lexus will go where the market is.
If BMW stands in a sweet market, Lexus will offer an attractive alternative, to increase it's brand awareness/image.
If Lexus really cared about BMW, why hgaven't they offered manuals in their cars? That's BMWs core audience. :confuse:
DrFill
If you want to stick to the bet that you asked for, let's do it.
And I will not reply to any of the material in your post, but I will make you this bet, and I want to word it very clear. If you try to make it less than perfectly clear then the bet is off.:
I will bet you that Mercedes Benz WILL have a 50-state compliant diesel engine by the end of calendar year 2008.
It's that simple. If you say that they will NOT, then we have a bet. Anything different, and there is no bet.
As far as what we bet for, we are in a virtual situation, but I think our reputation on this forum would be worth the bet.
Again, with regards to the rest of your post... no reply.
TagMan
Because going after the core group of another business - any business not just cars - is usually lunacy. You want the low hanging fruit, the buyers on the fence, then you want more and more of the them but never are you attacking the roots under the ground (in this case the core buyer). Nine times out of 10 the strategy to go after a core buyer will end up in failure. The strategy of any sound business plan of a competitor with a new offering or strategy is not to go after the core buyer (in my book that is suicidal), it's to gain enough market share and presence that it makes the core buyer come to you. And when you start to feel that happening you then play the wild card (in this case maybe a manual) that he can't resist. But if you start with that manual - then you're dead before you play the game.
This doesn't mean Lexus is "targeting" BMW.
If they were "targeting" BMW, the IS would be more focused, and a better sports sedan because of it.
My point is, if Lexus were "targeting" BMW, BMW would be in a world of hurt. Having driven both, Lexus wouldn't miss a target that badly.
Reminds me of an old Lexus commercial.....
The S-Class, for example, is feeling the effects of Lexus.
BMW sells just as many 3-series, they just don't make as much on each one. That's more because of the G35/37 than the IS. The IS really "targets" the C-Class better! Why would you buy a C-Class over an IS?
DrFill
-Do you think the Lexus IS is a bigger success than the last one?
-What other model do you think those Lexus IS buyers would have likely purchased?
-Do you think that some folks buy BMWs with automatic transmisisons?
-Do you think that a buyer would give up on a stick to get a Lexus if he liked the Lexus better?
-Do you believe that it is conceivable that someone would choose the LS460(L) over the BMW 7-Series?
-Even though GS sales aren't gigantic, what vehicle do you think a GS buyer would have otherwise purchased?
-Do you realize that there are many buyers that will not buy a car if they believe that it is not reliable enough?
-If yes, then do you realize that Lexus represents the GS as a performance luxury sedan, and there isn't another performance luxury sedan on the market that is perceived to be as reliable?... making the GS a very good choice for a performance luxury car in the eyes of those that have purchased it.
-Do you believe that there are those that aren't already sold on a particular car, but are more interested in a particular brand, and what that brand has to offer?
-If yes, do you believe that there are plenty of folks that would simply prefer to choose from the vehicles offered by Lexus than by BMW?
-Do you think that someone looking at BMWs who had decided to compare, would look at Lexus, and then after doing so, could find a Lexus car that they like?... or would they be more inclined to look at a Mercedes Benz, or some other brand? Why not Lexus?
-Don't you think that as Lexus performance and style begins to improve that BMW, which is about performance and style, will naturally get hurt?... afterall, many folks shouldn't feel badly about turning towards Lexus as an alternative, should they?
Doc, I see Lexus as a very powerful brand that is going to knock the pants off the competition as time goes by, especially as the models get freshened. The future is bright for Lexus, and the others had better stay alert.
You know I am a Eurocar fan, but reality is that Lexus is a dominant player here.
BTW, IMO, to "target" another company is to carefully take their customers away, not by offering a copy of their product line, but a more desireable alternative.
TagMan
Consider the potential for growth, here or in Europe. How much more share can Lexus get? How much more share can BMW get?
BMW can only grow so far with its line-up. Lexus' line-up, even though it has weaknesses, is still better positioned for growth, and will only improve. Just wait until there is a true sports car. Just wait until the SC is redone the right way. Just wait until the new LX570 is released. Just wait until the next RX is released. Just wait until the IS gets more playful. Just wait until the next generation of the LS600hL delivers 25+ mpg. Just wait until every Lexus is available as a hybrid, and the competition has just started to release their first!
As great as they are, BMW looks to me like the kind of brand that can be toppled, while Lexus is the kind of brand that can get even better and stronger and has lots of room for growth, IMO. The momentum and direction for the future looks good for Lexus, IMO, and I believe that BMW, and others Doc, will suffer because of it.
Much of BMW's upcoming woes will be because of Lexus.
TagMan
So much for the promise of "clean and powerful diesel"! We can see quite clearly what you honestly believe.
Frankly, you are trying to reduce the bet to utter pointlessness: diesel trucks are quite 50-state compliant even now. So what's the point of the bet or hyping the great upcoming diesel?!
Again, with regards to the rest of your post... no reply.
That's quite all right. I don't see how anyone can refute the facts that I presented.
I agree with you on this, to an extent. I will be watching the IS-F and the GT sports car VERY closely. The key question for these two cars is this, does Lexus have the ability to tune a world beating suspension and steering system? Can they do it, and if they can, will they sacrifice their "brand values" to achieve it?
If the IS and GS were designed to outperform the 3 and 5, if that was the internal goal and the two production cars are the result of that goal, then in that case Lexus failed, and failed miserably. If not, if they were designed to be more general entries in the segment designed to appeal to "Lexus buyers" then they succeeded in making cars that appeal to their typical customer, which is really only succeeding in maintaining the brand, rather than growing it.
That at least so far is the key difference between Lexus and Infiniti. Lexus has "brand values" which are very much at odds with what the IS-F and GT are supposed to be. How much quietness and comfort is Lexus willing to sacrifice when making these cars? Is there even a market for them at all?
Infiniti doesn't have that problem. The G35 re-invented the brand from scratch, and now they are free to make any kind of car they want. I think now that they have some direction, Infiniti has the potential for a huge amount of growth.
(I am thinking in Audis, BMWs. Jaguars, MBs, Volvos and others with comparable weight. R&R and the like play in other league, IMO.)
Why a 'powerful' luxury sedan should be 300+ hp? Is it a consensus? Is there some other ground to sustain it? It is not enough power 200+ hp (at least with a manual tranny)? Are we going to the moon within our cars? There is not a global energy/warming crisis?
In any case, are powerful enough the following top-of-the-offer-in-each-Class items?
Audi A4,A6 (3l TDI, 233hp), Audi A8 (4.2l TDI, 326hp)
BMW 3 (335d, 286 hp), 5 (current and most wanted 530d and 530xd, 235 hp; 535d, 286 hp), 7 (745d, 330 hp)
Jaguar S&XJ (2.7D V6E, 207hp)
MB is difficult to report due to its mixed offer of many diesels in each Class. They range from 224 hp to 320 hp, distributed within CLS, E, S and CLK Classes
Volvo offers the same top diesel engine in S60, C30, S80 & V50: 2.4 D5, 180 hp.
All these you can buy here right now. More diesel engines to come in Europe are posted in #2448, Edmund's Diesel in the News Forum
All are clean but they will be cleaner to fit EU 5 norm to be at work in 2010. Too late?
Regards,
Jose
Here was my logic: GS450H delivered 340hp in early 2006. The proposed bet with Tag has a deadline of the end of 2008. That's nearly three years after the introduction of GS430. I'd think nearly three years later and nearly 15% less horsepower are quite generous parameter relaxations for what can still be considered a competitive technology. As we know in all things technology time is of the essence. The average V6 family sedans have gone from 200hp to 260hp in the last few years. We are talking about midsize luxury performance sedans here in discussing GS and E. I was actually being very generous: the 40hp difference is the same as that between C280 and C350 (as well as E280 vs. E350 if you are lucky in Europe and offered the option); if Lexus comes out with a C280 or E280 more than two years after MB introducing a C350/E350, supposedly to compete . . . I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that it's not competititve.
We are still talking about clean and powerful diesel engines, right? Not just any diesel. If the economy gets bad enough and the dollar becomes nearly worthless again in commodity price terms, even dirty diesels from the 1980's will be allowed to be sold here as emergency measure. . . but that's not the sort of thing we are celebrating here, right?
Manual trannies don't help diesels much because the high torque number makes transmission selection really easy, any dumb three-speed auto can do diesels just fine. That was a big reason why diesel engines had somewhat of an edge over gasoline engines in low speed operation when auto trannies were dumb. That edge has become considerably less nowadays when both MB and Lexus are offering the us fast shifting automatics that deliver numerous gear ratios to choose from.
Wouldn't that be the IS250?