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I can name about 40 luxury cars that need to improve more than the 600h.
It's at the end of quite a list! :P
DrFill
LOL. That's actually a very interesting point, Doc, but I think the original post about the early cell phone and PC was to infer that there is an evolution that naturally occurs when an innovative product first comes out. Certainly the LS600hL should be considered the first generation of an innovative product, don't you think?
The "improvement" of 40 luxury cars that you are talking about is a little different, but it's a good point for discussion sometime. I mean it would be a great topic to discuss the top items that various vehicles need to improve, and whether or not you think they ever will? As far as the LS600hL goes, however, I believe that it is a foregone conclusion that the next LS600hL will be a significant step forward. Don't you agree? Or are you suggesting the first rendition is perfect just the way it is, and beyond any improvement?
But as far as this particular thread is concerned, the word "improvement" as I used it, was more in line with the original posters intention. I think you knew that, but you had a good comeback line, and you didn't want it to go to waste.
To be specific about what will likely "improve" on the future LS600hL... it's pretty obvious... most notably the gas mileage, the performance, and the size and weight of the batteries. The good news is that it won't take much more than the improvement of those things... which says a lot for the car, doesn't it?
TagMan
Tag, I think you are a balanced poster, most of the time
IMO, Lexus's done an exceptional job integrating ICE and electric motors in their vehicles. The same goes for keeping pricing/performance in line with comparable similarly equipped ICE-only premium models. The battery size/weight issue is beyond their control. A little research showed that new advances like (safe/durable)Lithium Ion batteries, or Ultra-capacitors devices are just around the corner, and they might get here easier/quicker than having oil companies putting clean diesel in their gas stations.
I am not an early technology adapter myself, but I am very tempted by the Camry, RX and GS hybrids. I test drove the RXh a month ago and loved it. I've read reviews that the Camry and the GS are even better. I would buy/lease any one of them if I were looking for a vehicle in their segment.
Hybrid tech is not perfect, but it is a good value, when compared with cars in it's class. You seem reluctant to do that.
DrFill
You should read the history a little sometime. I was one of the biggest advocates for hybrid technology in all the Edmunds forums... and not all that long ago!
I see a place for hybrid. But I do believe that at this current time, the batteries really need to improve. With better batteries, the engine beomes less significant than the electric motors, instead of the current situation whereby the engine is essentially assisted or sometimes turned off at idle or slow speeds.
With new generation batteries, the electric operation becomes more primary, and the engine's job is more about keeping those batteries (new generation) charged. A system of this nature will make a huge increase in fuel efficiency.
Regardless, I believe that hybrids have their place, and with Toyota out there as the major sponsor of the technology, it is hard to ignore.
New generation diesels are going to surprise you and everyone. Most will release as '09 models, so there is no real awareness yet. Heck, there are hardly any cars yet!!
Mostly guys like us that read every little blurb know about them at this point.
So... let's see... the hybrid has been out for a number of years already. That means that you can make up your mind on the diesels in the year 2012, after they've had about three years to prove themselves one way or another.
TagMan
Answer: Neither
Which engines today win the most awards?
Answer: Good ole fashioned gasoline drivetrains
2007 LINK
International Engine of the Year Awards 2007: Winners
Best New Engine of 2007
BMW 3-litre Twin-Turbo (335i)
Best Fuel Economy
Toyota 1.5-litre Hybrid Synergy Drive (Prius)
Best Performance Engine
BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6)
Sub 1-litre
Toyota 1-litre (Aygo, Yaris, Peugeot 107, Citroën C1)
1-litre to 1.4-litre
Volkswagen 1.4-litre TSI Twincharger (Golf, Touran, Jetta)
1.4-litre to 1.8-litre
BMW-PSA 1.6-litre Turbo (MINI, Peugeot 207)
1.8-litre to 2-litre
Volkswagen 2-litre Turbo (Golf, Audi A3, A6, SEAT Leon, Skoda Octavia)
2-litre to 2.5-litre
BMW 2.5-litre (325, 525, X3, Z4)
2.5-litre to 3-litre
BMW 3-litre Twin-Turbo (335i)
3-litre to 4-litre
Porsche 3.6-litre Turbo (911)
Above 4-litre
BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6)
And
International Engine of the Year 2007
BMW 3-litre Twin-Turbo (335i)
Is it mere coincidence that no luxury diesels were selected in the above list?. Is it mere coincidence that no Lexus hybrids were selected? I don’t think so.
And what about Ward’s 10 Best Engines? No hybrids among them and only one single diesel (Daimler’s 3.0L engine)). Is that mere coincidence? Again I don’t think so. Gasoline engines still rule. And which drivetrain rules tomorrow-- Who knows?
WARD'S 10 BEST ENGINES
By the way, the awards are from auto-journalists. Not the buying public and not engineers.
2006 Winners
Best New Engine: Volkswagen 1.4-litre TSI Twincharger
Best Fuel Economy: Toyota 1.5-litre Hybrid Synergy Drive
Best Performance Engine: BMW 5-litre V10
Sub 1-litre: Honda 1-litre IMA
1-litre to 1.4-litre: Volkswagen 1.4-litre TSI Twincharger
1.4-litre to 1.8-litre: Toyota 1.5-litre Hybrid Synergy Drive
1.8-litre to 2-litre: Volkswagen 2-litre FSI Turbo
2-litre to 2.5-litre: Subaru 2.5-litre Turbo
2.5-litre to 3-litre: BMW 3-litre Twin Turbo Diesel
3-litre to 4-litre: BMW M 3.2-litre
Above 4-litre: BMW 5-litre V10
International Engine of the Year 2005: BMW 5-litre V10
2005 Winners
Best New Engine: BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6)
Best Fuel Economy: Toyota 1.5-litre Hybrid Synergy Drive (Prius)
Best Performance Engine: BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6)
Sub 1-litre: Honda 1-litre IMA (Insight)
1-litre to 1.4-litre: Fiat-GM 1.3-litre Diesel
1.4-litre to 1.8-litre: Toyota 1.5-litre Hybrid Synergy Drive (Prius)
1.8-litre to 2-litre: Volkswagen 2-litre FSI Turbo (Golf GTi, Audi A3, A4)
2-litre to 2.5-litre: Honda 2.2-litre Diesel (Accord, CR-V, FR-V)
2.5-litre to 3-litre: BMW 3-litre Twin-Turbo Diesel (535d)
3-litre to 4-litre: BMW 3.2-litre (M3)
Above 4-litre: BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6)
International Engine of the Year 2005: BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6)
Diesels and hybrid in bold.
Because we are, and have been, in an age of gasoline ICEs for many, many decades. In only the most recent speck of time we have seen some new generation alternatives, specifically hybrid and diesel. And... the new generation diesels, for all practical puurposes, have barely begun to arrive here yet.
Given THAT, what's the mystery or revelation that gas ICEs have been ruling the powerplant of the age? It's a given.
BTW, welcome back, Dewey.
TagMan
link title
TagMan
Actually wasn't aware that such a classification exists.
Hmm, perhaps it doesn't...
So if Daimler Chrysler (as was) puts a Mercedes diesel in a Jeep product- is it still a 'luxury engine'?
Let's follow that with, if Mercedes uses an e-class frame in a Chrysler 300- is it still a 'luxury' frame? Presumably if you can have 'luxury' diesels you can have 'luxury' frames? Right?
'Luxury' wiper blades, 'luxury' window switches, how about 'luxury' hoses or 'luxury' belts?
Come on now. An engine is an engine, whether you decide it meets the 'luxury' criteria or not.
First and foremost thanks for the welcome back.
The first list was an international list and diesels in Audis, BMWs and MBs have existed for decades beyond our shores. My ancient heirloom of a 83 MB300D is proof of that.
And in order to pre-empt a future dispute I am not comparing my diesel with the new MB 3.0L Blutec diesel.
Correct a luxury engine does sound somewhat silly.
I meant performance. Although I do think of great performance engines as a luxury. But that at least is my own opinion. A 1.3L Diesel engine or a 1.5L HSD drivetrain is not what I call performance.
And as far as I know the folks at MB and at Lexus wants everyone to think of their diesels and hybrids as luxuries. Although maybe not their engines
Here's a quote and the link follows:
J.D. Power and Associates, which makes a living by forecasting such trends... Power predicts diesels will rise from today’s 3.2 percent share of first-time registrants to make up 15 percent in the United States by 2015.
Here's the link to the full article:
link title
The article is primarily about the Mercedes ML CDI diesel. You will be amazed at all the kudos this engine gets. The BlueTec will be even better.
Great article!! (and just the beginning of MANY more to come!)
TagMan
Yes, heirloom is the word. Diesels have gotten some attention, but nothing like the gas ICEs of recent time. NOW, the diesels will get more and more attention, and you will see a shift over the next decade. But, quite frankly, the gas ICE will still be the engine of majority use, even through the next decade, so none of this is a big surprise.
TagMan
Lexus will not like this one. The link says that Audi did not use the new LS in the link, but that is what was parked in front of the A4.
Glad you liked it! Why am I not surprised? It's the kind of ad that I've only imagined and hoped would happen... and now it did!
For those that may have missed the link, here it is again. Absolutely worth the view!!
link title
TagMan
I understand it is being replaced some time soon but I like the 'olde English' styling and wonder if it deserves a look see as a luxury sedan.
And, yes, the replacement is the new C-XF... really GORGEOUS!!!
TagMan
Thanks! (most of the time?... well... I do have my moments.
BTW, I agree with your post. The battery issue is certainly something that is mostly beyond Lexus' control, and the advances in battery technology will be a benefit to them, as you and I know they will take full advantage of any improvement that becomes available and feasable.
TagMan
Please don't jump on me. I love the LS, but the new one just has not grown on me yet. I was still getting used to the 430 because I still kind of like the 400.
Speaking of golf, I made a hole-in-one yesterday. My third one. About 165 yards, 6 iron. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
ARE THE X5'S NOT BUILT IN GERMANY OR ANYWHERE ELSE...?
A great combo IMO.
While BMW will always emphasise driving pleasure, Volvo would add safety and environmental concerns to the mix.
What is the likelihood of this happening?
Read the following:
BMW seriously considered launching a takeover bid for Volvo earlier this year, Autocar can reveal.
The Bavarian car maker requested a complete breakdown of Volvo’s financial position from a European investment bank, which is handling enquiries on behalf of Volvo’s owners Ford.
Sources also revealed that BMW had earlier looked at Alfa Romeo as a possible takeover target.
Industry experts have told Autocar that BMW is considering expanding its range of brands to aid the company’s future growth as well as underpinning its front-wheel-drive Mini division by greatly expanding its output.
It’s thought some company bosses saw Volvo as a global brand complimentary to BMW that still has considerable scope for growth. While BMW will always emphasise driving pleasure, Volvo would add safety and environmental concerns to the mix.
Although BMW’s outline plan isn’t known, it’s likely that the larger saloon and estate models would have eventually switched to BMW platforms offering both rear- and four-wheel drive.
The smaller cars in Volvo’s range would have remained front-drive and would probably been merged with an enlarged Mini family.
In fact, it is the future of the Mini brand that is causing BMW a considerable headache. It has been forced to make major investments by redesigning the new Mini, as well as engineering the Mini Clubman estate.
Mini sales are still down on their 2005 peak, and BMW insiders acknowledge that a total annual output of 250,000 to 270,000 cars is not enough to secure a profitable long-term future for the Mini brand.
Potentially, BMW could have built its proposed large five-door Mini and Mini SUV on the same front-drive chassis as a future S40 and V50.
An annual output of 500,000 upmarket Volvo and Mini front-drive cars would have ensured long-term profitability
The news that BMW is again seriously considering a buy-out of a major car maker will come as shock to the industry.
Seven years ago BMW was humiliated when massive losses forced it to break up and sell off the Rover Group, which it had bought back in 1994
link title
On the other hand, like I said, the A8L W12, 760Li and S600 offer noticeable performance advantages over their eight-cylinder counterparts. They do, of course, have penalties in fuel consumption, but at least they don't cancel themselves out like the Lexus hybrid.
One more thing- the "point of an S600 or a 760LI" is that they certainly do have virtues that the S550 and 750Li can't match. These are things like the custom woods and leathers, the superior performance, the prestige of the twelve-cylinder engine. I could go on, but you (hopefully) see my point.
Bye for now.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
1. You can't have 3 different 3.5 V6s there, all sold in similar vehicles. Can you pick one? All I've heard is complaining about the VQ Nissan 3.5 losing it's refinement, since it jumped from 3.0 to 3.5.
Why would the Ford 3.5 be mentioned? It took 5-6 years to come, and it's 40HP behind the competition! They didn't even pick the best Ford engine!
2. Can we give the 5.7 Hemi a rest too? The new Tundra 5.7 has it by over 35HP! And has much better economy!
I haven't though about the 10 Best Engines, but it's apparent they haven't either. :lemon:
That was 3 minutes I'll never get back!
DrFill
1. Ford/Navistar 6.4 Diesel
2. Mercedes BlueTec
3. Toyota 3.5 V6
4. Tundra 5.7 V8
5. BMW 3.0
6. Ferrari F430
7. Honda 2.0
8. Mazda/Ford 2.3 Turbo
9. GM LS7 7L
10. Your pick here (I'm missing something)
Next Week: My 7-day cure for Iraq! :surprise:
DrFill
V12 HELC's are about sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio (hence the abillity to smother pot holes, rail tracks and other surface irregularities). . . and the ability to perform when fully loaded with four (potentially overweight) people in the car, not 0-60 with only the driver. Load either 760iL or LS600hL with 800lbs of human flesh, they will outperform their regular V8 brethrens under the same burden even if their single-driver 0-60 numbers are the same.
The only diesel vehicles that have been 50-state legal were all allowed under the old LEV standard, which had multiple tiered specifications according to vehicle weight. The new LEV II standard is only being phased in as of this year (2007). None of the MB Bluetec or Audi offerings have been qualified under LEV II yet.
TagMan
ULSD in California is nice, but how many buyers are willing to take the chance that the moment they run dry out of state, they may have to fill up on something that may kill the emission control subsystem and result in thousands of dollar of repair bills? I thought Californians are fond of taking trips to Nevada and Mexico.
Very good question... but the solution is within the timeline for national conversion to ULSD, and since the majority of ULSD-consuming diesels won't really hit until 2009 model year and beyond, the supply situation will be much further along.
By June 1, 2006, 80 percent of the highway diesel fuel produced or imported is ULSD fuel and by December 1, 2010, all highway diesel fuel offered for sale must be ULSD fuel, by LAW.
Problem solved.
Edit: keep in mind the very long-range that typically comes between diesel fill-ups... could be handy for the first year, until the entire nation is dispensing ULSD.
TagMan
Toyota is a major shareholder in some of the leading manufacturers of the relevant battery products . . . in some cases controlling shareholder. Ford complained about its hybrids being given the short shrift in battery supply when Toyota and Lexus products got the first call on batteries. As technology improve and become more commonplace, I'm sure there will be battery immitators to supply the also-runs.
TagMan
They must be seperated... and keep in mind that the new generation of diesel vehicles will, for all practical purposes, start to be sold in the year 2009 and beyond. By the end of 2010, the potential for a problem as you describe would no longer exist. Additionally, the driving range between fill-ups is quite considerable for most diesels. I see your concern as a very small short-lived one, since the federal law eliminates the problem in the very near future.
Also, 80% doesn't mean that there can be a mix of fuel. It means that 80% of the distribution would be pure S15 (ULSD) by summer of 2006, which is already past. The remaining 20% would be pure S15 by Decemeber, 2010 at the LATEST.
Here is a link I think might help answer some of your questions:
Clean Diesel Fuel Alliance
TagMan
Here is a link I think might help answer some of your questions:
Clean Diesel Fuel Alliance
Try the "Frequently Asked Questions" tab first and see if that answers your basic questions. Good luck!
TagMan
That's not correct at all. 80% of production and import must be ULSD. Service stations that choose to label their products ULSD must use pure ULSD. However, there is no requirment any service station (outside California) label their fuel ULSD at all. None of the stations near where I live label their fuel ULSD.
TagMan
Also, I don't recall ever using the word "sold" with reference to the 80% as you suggest. If I did use that word, then I should not have, but I don't recall using it. I think I was referring to distribution process of the fuel, not the final sale. I'm not positive.
But, back to the point here... is the only problem you are having with all of this the "transition"?
If so, I don't see it as anything to get so excited as you seem to. And I'm glad that the link was helpful to you! I wasn't patronizing you... I was genuinely attempting to give you a link to a LOT of answers to your good questions. I sense that it is quite risky for me to even try to help you out, as you seem to very quickly look for areas to argue... or at least it seems that way to me. Anyway, enjoy the information.
TagMan
That's just the trasition problem. Down the road, there are even bigger problems, such as:
1. leakage from old diesel fuel that had seeped into the ground having its sulfer leached back into the underground storage;
2. leakage from neighboring gasoline storage tank, which may not be ultralow sulfer;
3. performance and engine durability issues with ULSD;
4. much of the diesel support comes from people who are into biodiesel . . . imagine their shock when they are told the truth that biodiesel are inherently high in sulfer (all that cell membranes and lipids are rich in sulfer), and therefore prone to kill their brand spanking new Bluetec engine! (or at least the do-hickies at the back end that make it legal to be on the road)
That's just to name a few.
The even bigger issue is with the low rpm of diesel engine technology . . . which means low power output for the same displacement (and equivalent displacement if turbo is used). In this day and age, automatic transmissions can have numerous gear ratios, the high torque number is no longer as important a it once was a quarter century ago; engine power is the limiting factor in how much wheel torque there can be at a given wheel rpm when transmission is no longer a limiting factor.
I started off by providing you answers to your questions, and a very helpful link. That seemed reasonable to me. But it didn't take long for you to start in again with that same old song and dance.
So, with that, I realize that I would be making a mistake to continue past this point with you.
Goodnight.
TagMan
I understand it is being replaced some time soon but I like the 'olde English' styling and wonder if it deserves a look see as a luxury sedan.
The only Jag worse than the S-type is the X-type, which has absolutely zero redeeming qualities. The S-type launched all the way back in 2000, and it was designed to compete with the 540i and the E430, which it barely managed to do. It's simply hopeless compared to the latest mid-lux class. By today's standards the 4.2 is slow and the 3.0 is stationary. The once hot Type R would only be able to keep pace in a straight line with a M45 or 550i, and its no match handling wise.
Interior quality vastly improved for '03 from barely good enough for a Lincoln to below average. '03 Type Rs go for the mid to high $20s, and '04s are over $30. I just don't think they are worth it. If you decide you like the styling so much that you're willing to overlook all of the car's flaws and buy one anyway, CPO is an absolute must. Used S-types are seriously unreliable, and you really don't want to get stuck with those repair costs.
Unless you've got a great Jag dealer nearby and are willing to make quite a few trips there, I'd say avoid the S-type, especially considering than an '01 or '02 XKR convertible is around the same money, and while its platform is now 32 years old, driving one with the top down on a really nice day makes that not really matter.