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It failed to deliver that published number in the C&D test. It certainly can not possibly delivery "35mpg in the process" of meshed at full throttle. Like I said, diesel fuel savings mostly comes from being able to run very lean fuel mix when the engine is not under load.
And yes, the E320 CDI is in fact quieter than the GS300 at full swing. Even quieter than the old 5.0L MB 3-valve V8.
Just about anything in this class is quieter than the old 3-valve SOHC junker. It's highly doubtful E320D is quieter than the GS300, most certainly not at the same rpm or horsepower output. I'd rather take an engine that can deliver more power in addition to being quieter at same power output. E320D, even if quieter at full throttle (which I doubt) is like an engine that had a lobotomy that shuts down the engine at variable valve timing shift-over point instead of delivering higher output with variable valve timing. Audio effect beyond variable valve shift-over point may well be a design feature instead of defect as the same lexus critics used to accused the brand of being too quiet.
Being "0.9" seconds to 60 versus the E350 is something I'd happily trade for. And given the many MB tuners that pull more power out of the CDI, it's a no-brainer.
Being 0.9 seconds slower to 60, and falling quickly even farther behind beyond 60 makes the car sit in a different, much lower, performance ladder. The E280 is only 0.4 second slow to 62 than E350 does! Put that into perspective, E320D is a whole rung below even E280!
And let's remember, the E320 CDI has no direct rival in the States.
Nor did Yugo have a direct rival when it was on the US market.
That being the case, how does the MB S550 make the same 380hp the LS460 does? And this time, please reframe from using your transmision "gear tricks", as the heavier MB outpaces it all the while being short one gear.
Shorter on gear means higher rpm and more power output at given wheel speed. Methinks the terminology is messed up somewhere in your statement compared to what you are trying to say.
yet the S550 does it in traditional MB(and for that matter, big engine) style
You got that one right, big engine blocks in the traditional GM/Chevy style too.
What the federal mandate stated was that refiners have to produce at least 80% of their output in ULSD. That does not mean however diesel stations have to offer 80% ULSD or ULSD at all. A blend of 80% ULSD to 20% normal diesel would kill a Bluetec's downstream cleaning gadgets in short order. For what it's worth, I have not seen a single ULSD station around where I live, and every gas station that I go to do offer diesel, regular diesel!
First of all, Diesel is about 15% denser than gasoline, about 850gram/liter vs 720gram/liter. Does this mean anything to you? Suppose the refining process is equally efficent to produce both, and the source to product rate is 1:1. Then 850 grams of Cruide oil can produce 850 grams of Diesel or 850 grams of gasoline. That's 1 liter of Diesel or 1.2 liter of gasoline. Simple math. It takes a bit more petrolium to produce ultra-low-sulfer diesel than regular diesel.
Yes, the a barrel of cruide oil can be used to produce a certain percentage of diesel and gas. Roughly about 20 gallons of gasoline and 7 gallons of diesel are produced from each barrel of crude oil. But this percentage is largely adjustable. If you produce more percentage of gas, you will get less diesel from the same amount of crdue oil, or if you want more diesel then there will be less gasoline from the same amount of crude oil. Hope you get the idea.
As to who comes up the number, 25%, Google is your best friend.
"Again, nonsense. ULSD is the federally mandated standard since October of last year. "
Actually, the requirements starts in year 2006. But the transition take about 4 years till the end of 2010. link
For trains, they can use non-ULSD until 2012, I believe.
Haven't heard anyone label an LS a "screamer", I'm sure you are trying to be relative.
The LS, after driving it, obviously is more mid-range punchy, and the Benz is more traditionally low-end with the displacement advantage.
Regarding your use of the term "relaxed", the LS is no Civic Si. It doesn't come off as cammy, or stressed. And it is quieter getting up to speed than the Benz.
The Benz, to me, was slightly faster, but boomier in the process. More American V8, which is a good thing. It made a statement getting up to speed, but I expected it to be quieter.
You could tell the LS had a smaller engine, but it was more refined in operation.
Can't really thorw stones at either approach. They'll both appeal to customers.
DrFill
You and I both know Lexus would never greenlight a "screamin" nothing, from an IS to an LS600hl.
It was just to say that the LS keeps in the traditional Japanese up-range powerband, which perhaps, is no bad thing.
The 4.6 gets the job done all the same.
And yes, the MB is more akin to an American engine, gobs of power down low and some midrange, but a bit tame in the uppers.
Come on now. Your link is to an article written in 2001.
2010 is the date for rural Alaska only. In the rest of the country Oct 15th 2006 was the mandate for retail diesel.
Regarding the 15% more crude to make diesel, that's just plain bad information. The numbers may be correct 1.1 to 1.0 needed but this is made up for in the energy nature of diesel. Gasoline is a less effective energy source than diesel, gasoline is about 38.4 megajoules/ liter compared to diesel at 40.9 mj/l so diesel is 15% more efficient as a fuel. This nets out to a zero % advantage to either fuel. The difference comes from diesel engines which are more efficient, generally around 30% more efficient.
Additionally diesel engines are more efficient in gallons consumed so actually emit less green house gases than the equivalent gas model (diesel emits approx 69% of the amount that a gas model does).
Quite apart from the science the benefit of encouraging less net consumption of oil plus the potential to use bio-diesel options make diesel engines pretty attractive .
True, but CAR got it done in 6.4, so did PM, faster than mfg. numbers, so point being?
Sorry to inform you, but the 7.5 seconds it takes the GS300 to accelerate won't make the CDI sweat much. Doubt as you may, the CDI is in fact quieter, quicker, and more efficient. So much for the "pursuit of perfection"
The E280 is not available on our shores, so why the comparison? And in fact, the E280 hits 0-60 in 7.3 sexonds.
It was your "imaginative" thinking that gearing is everything in acceleration.
If GM has gotten by with producing 4-speed trannies for 30 years until recently, and still having cars that are sometimes the best in their respective class in acceleration(old Escalade, C6 for example) then that should be an attribute that the whole argument is just that, argumentative.
No matter what angle you come from to DISCREDIT the magnificent automobile the E320 CDI is, the car is definetely here to stay. Yes, you may argue that Lexus has "cutting edge technology", but judging from the refusal to accept the GS450h by the buying public, they may not have much at all.
Factor in the long list of buying orders for the CDI(definetely to grow next year when it is 50-state compliant), all the ranting in the world may not stop it, it's so-called(as you'd have it) shortcomings withstanding in the process.
With the many math brainiacs that participate here, why is it that a few only know this information?
If were able to not only make diesels that are 50-75% cleaner than gas engines(reduce greenhouse gases), but also make diesels that are more efficient than the most advanced hybrid on the market today(totally eliminate or integrate into diesel rather than gas engines), and in the process reduce are dependency on foreign oil by half by 2020/25(drive oil prices down into the ground, all the while bankrupting a few countries that may need to be), what is the hold up?
Maybe if you are really careful, when next burning a wood pile or trash, if you pour a pint of gas over it and step well back and light it, the pile almost explodes when it catches fire....If the next time you do the same with diesel fuel, it will catch much more slowly, but you can feel that it puts out a noticably increased amount of heat---way hotter....just to the feel...I think that is btu, and why diesel goes further than gas Tony ps not too scientific, but you will stand further from the fire..
Please, blkhemi, go back and read my posts earlier in the day. I addressed the issue regarding 0-60 ad nauseum. If you insist on being slow on physics, it's your own business. High torque low HP engines have an initial advantage at low speeds when gear selections are limited . . . on the 0-100mph race, once the high HP low torque car passes the high torque low HP car, it's bye-bye to the latter. With transmissions approximating the ideal CVT with wide span of gear ratio available nowadays, that cross-over point takes place earlier and earlier in the race.
Reducing foreign oil dependency and driving down oil prices are mutually conflictory. We import oil not because we are out of oil but because it is cheaper to import oil than producing locally. It's the same reason why we import T-shirts. Driving down oil price (or T shirt price) will simply bankrupt even more domestic producers, and make us even more dependent on imports. So long as the domestic production price is $20-30 a barrel or more, and Venezuala production cost is $10-15/barrel, and Saudi cost is $5/barrel or less, what do you think is going to happen if price goes down?
You are correct here. I test drove the current C280 wit 7-speed auto last week and I have to say that I preferred the way it drove compare to the G35x I tested just prior to that.
The 7-speed makes the less powerful V6 a very competent combination. It does not look good on paper, but the actual driving told a different story.
With this in mind, I can't wait to try Lexus 8-speed auto in one of their lighter cars.
While imported oil may be cheaper, this only benefits big oil companies, not the motoring public. They do not pass the savings along, they pocket the savings. Their profits of recent years borders on the obscene and is an outrageous example of price gouging.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Okay, have to call you out on that one. The EPA does not ban any diesels that are on the market currently. California's emissions laws, which are also used by several other states- Mass, Vt etc., are more strict on soot emissions than EPA. The hold up in getting more clean diesel engines in this country has been the manufacturer's reluctance to bring in vehicles that can't be sold the same way in all 50 states, nothing to do with EPA.
The emissions that CA set are more strict than those in use anywhere else in the world and that's their prerogative. Fortunately Honda, Audi, BMW and MB either have or are in development of clean diesels that meet those standards.
Another unfortunate reason that clean diesel was delayed so ling in this country was the lack of a mandate for ULSD.
Nox emissions were a good reason not to have thousands of diesels in our passenger fleet but those issues are pretty much cleared now.
As I stated earlier, one of the other strong upsides of diesel engines is that they convert so easily to use various blends of bio-diesel. Bio-diesel has far greater long term potential than ethanol and has no green house gas emissions. There are many very strong reasons to be excited that diesel passenger vehicles are going to be showing up here.
brightness - you seem to have appointed yourself as dictator, lately. But, then again, dictators are generally self-appointed, aren't they?
You've been dictating what cars we should and shouldn't compare, and what equations we should all use, and now this latest one.
As Car & Driver so appropriately pointed out, the E-Class diesel FEELS like it's faster than the E350, and delivers phenomenal MPG. Certainly, at the very least, that means that it is a reasonable alternative that warrants consideration.
Use all the physics equations you want to, but the only numbers that people generally care about are the price of the car, the payment terms, the MPG, sometimes the cargo and passenger capacity, sometimes the 0-60, sometimes the 60-0 braking, sometimes the tow capacity, the length of the warranty, and a few others on occassion. None of those require physics equations, last time I checked.
What REALLY matters to almost everyone is how the car LOOKS and FEELS when it drives. Beyond that, it is the gas-mileage, vehicle's features, and the vehicle's price and/or payment. Reliability (separate discussion)is important, but most people are balanced, while others are polarized... meaning that some do not care at all and others insist it must be as close to perfect as possible.
Anyone that can drive a car can determine for himself whether or not he likes or dislikes the LOOKS, FEEL, and features of a car without any physics equations.
If the new diesels are placed inside cars that look good, have nice features, and they feel quick and smooth and deliver terrific fuel economy, and are environmentally friendly, then that's generally the winning formula.
And I do want to make this clear... I don't need anyone (except the host...LOL) to dictate what cars I should or shouldn't compare... an E320 vs. an E350 comes to mind as one good example.
TagMan
You know my supportive position on the new generation of diesels, and you have clearly made some good points.
TagMan
While imported oil may be cheaper, this only benefits big oil companies, not the motoring public. They do not pass the savings along, they pocket the savings. Their profits of recent years borders on the obscene and is an outrageous example of price gouging.
A very realistic perspective, houdini.
TagMan
How about the "factually averse" individual?
The last time I checked, the EPA hasn't banned ANY diesel engines in this country. If that we're the case, we'd all be starving right now and no way to get gas because it's all delivered by a honkin, smokin, smelly CAT 500, Detroit, or MBZ diesel engine. 5 states have adapted their own rigorous methods of lower emission standards, with some exemptions. I know because I live in one.
You can run numbers like a car salesman all you may, but facts are facts.
You say that diesels are nothing without hp. Well why does a diesel continuously win countless endurance races? Lemans for one.
BTW: Since when will lower oil prices bankrupt "everyone"? Not long ago, oil came in at a very shy $35/brl. This didn't have an adverse effect on the booming '90's economy. Why? Because people have more to spend when gasoline and heating oil are affordable. More discretionary spending means a more stable economy, and a more stable and healthier economy ensures a healthy GDP, which opens the flood gate for jobs and economic opportunities.
See, these statements don't come from mere hypocrisy, but actual facts. Didn't have to earn a 5th degree in Applied Mathematics to come up with them either, basic business sense suits just fine......
BUT! We were told earlier today that the Buick Enclave will be coming out in a couple of months.
This vehicle could very well be the vehicle that catipults not only Buick into the big leagues, but also GM as a hold. Even more so than the Escalade as the details will be way richer.
Factor in the rave reviews for the Lambda-platformed SUV's, and it may very well win her over. And I hear that this is the vehicle that Lutz is making his personal baby. With that, he wants to put the new gen DOHC V8's in this one, which is basically the next Northstar, but much more advanced.
When she heard that, she automatically halted all buying decisions until then.
I saw the concept of the Enclave and came away extremely impressed, even more now since I learned Buick will not deviate much from the concept.
Will definetely keep you all posted.
is not that great.
You can find many similar comments that you used to use them to attack hybrids.
BTW, for an engine, hp and torque, they are basically equivalent to each other
hp = torque* RPM/5252
Acceleration:
delta (1/2mass*Velocity^2)= work done = hp*time = force * distant = force*Velocity*time = hp*time
hp = force*Velocity
force = torque/(radius of wheel)
Hopefully I still understand the high school Physics correctly.
Saved the old text book, eh? If you or anyone else needs to feel good by quoting a few physics equations, go right ahead. I'm a college grad myself, and graduated with honors, so I'm not at any disadvantage. Bottom line for me is that I see little relevance, and I have little interest. But for those that like it, go for it. Truth is, I won't be impressed, or interested, that's for sure.
The C&D review, whether great or lousy for the E320, is irrelevant to my point.
Originally, a poster was drilling us here that such a comparison was inappropriate. I was glad to see that the vast majority of posters felt that the BlueTec E-Class deserved such a comp. Personally, I saw the comp as a good way to see how the E320 BlueTec stacked up against the E350, which is a terrific mid-lux sedan, IMO. While I would agree that C&D found the E350 to be a more desireable vehicle overall, the E320 BlueTec faired very well, and I feel that C&D gave it fair credit where it was due. I expect even better reviews of the E320 BlueTec over time.
Very interesting that C&D said it felt faster than the E350.
You can disagree with me on this if you want to, but I sure believe that the joy of driving sure has quite a bit to do with the "feel" of driving. It's one big reason I recently bought my 911 Carrera S!... FEELS good to drive! :shades:
TagMan
What difference does it make whether federal EPA, state EPA or CARB instituted the ban? The Bluetec diesel passenger cars are banned because they are dirty. The 5 states banning it happens to be the primary markets for luxury cars in the US: California and the Northeast.
You can run numbers like a car salesman all you may, but facts are facts.
You can run fantasy claims like a car salesman all you may, the numbers completely dash your claims.
You say that diesels are nothing without hp. Well why does a diesel continuously win countless endurance races? Lemans for one.
Which part of "endurance races" don't you understand? Not having to fuel as often saves time. How many drivers in real life drive until the fuel tank is empty, fill it up and then drive it empty again, all day long?
BTW: Since when will lower oil prices bankrupt "everyone"?
Who said bankrupt "everyone"?? Not me. Lower oil prices would simply mean lower domestic production per centage because oil is a commodity and domestic production cost is higher than imports. If you really have difficulty wrapping your head around this one, think of this way: if T shirts were $50 each instead of $5 each, do you think more domestic shops would have better success at making T shirts or less? BTW, I'm not advocating jacking up import tax on T shirts or oil to protect domestic production, but the very idea that such proposals exist should tell you something about the relationship between price and domestic production content. BTW, while I don't have a 5th degree in Applied Mathematics, I'm quite tired of having to go over rather simple arithmetics, physics and now economics.
force = torque / (radius of wheel)
The torque refers to wheel torque not engine torque.
The relationship between wheel torque and engine torque is multiplied by the transmission and final gear ratio, which are different for different cars. HP is what really stays constant from the engine to wheel (minus some parasitic loss), not torque (which gets multiplied by transmission).
Whether some of us care about physics does not change the simple fact that physics still governs this part of the universe in how things work in the real life.
If "feel fast" because of high torque is the goal instead of real horsepower delivering real performance, a Corvette would beat 911 for half the price; Mustang V8 can do it for 1/3 the price.
Tag, you should really read what I was replying to. It was simply a retort to the "brainiac" ridicule. Dictator? Nah, I don't even go by subjective measures like "feel." I try to make objective statements and leave my own feelings out of it.
If the new diesels are placed inside cars that look good, have nice features, and they feel quick and smooth and deliver terrific fuel economy, and are environmentally friendly, then that's generally the winning formula.
That's a lot of if's. The most important if comes down to if people think it's worth the price premium of well over $6000 compared to an E280 which would have delivered comparable (and probably better) performance to E320D.
I don't need anyone (except the host...LOL) to dictate what cars I should or shouldn't compare...
So can we compare 4cyl Camry to E350 now? Saying "not comparable" in performance is not an order that you are forbidden to comapare them. You are certainly free to compare apples to oranges to your own heart's content.
Nox emissions were a good reason not to have thousands of diesels in our passenger fleet but those issues are pretty much cleared now.
It's far from cleared now. 20% of refinery output is not ULSD. There is no mandate to sell ULSD at all at the pump. Any mixing of regular diesel into the Bluetec engine will promptly kill the downstream Nox removal system and result in thousdands of dollars of repairs.
As I stated earlier, one of the other strong upsides of diesel engines is that they convert so easily to use various blends of bio-diesel. Bio-diesel has far greater long term potential than ethanol and has no green house gas emissions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in biodiesel for my own heating requirements, as a matter of recycling used cooking oil (help reducing ground water pollution). However, realisticly, do the math and you will realize that bio-diesel is not going to replace petroleum diesel on any large scale . . . even if we plant soy beans from coast to coast north of the Mason-Dixon line and Palms south of it, and stop eating any oil altogether. There just isn't enough food oil production to go around. Think about it, before diesel and gasoline engines came along, petroleum was produced to make kerosene, which was a replacement for whale oil for lighting. Why whale oil before kerosene came along? Because it was actually cheaper to chase the whales around the world and kill them to get their blubber than harvesting vegetable oils for lighting. For what it's worth, Rudolf invented diesel engine to run on peanut oil, but petroleum diesel quickly replaced peanut and soy oil in running diesel engine because . . . once again simple economics.
I've owned a number of Corvettes over the years. They FELT great. I don't know what your problem is.
I recently owned that Lotus Sport Elise, and driving it FELT awesome!!, although getting in and out of that car was too much for my neck to handle.
Whether some of us care about physics does not change the simple fact that physics still governs this part of the universe in how things work in the real life.
Of course, brightness... we all have our moments of being in awe of the amazing creation around us and the laws of physics. I'm not ignoring the idea that physics are valid as to explain why many things work the way they do... but when I buy products, I have to admit, I don't give the physics part of it all too much thought. I mean when I bought my first Plasma TV years ago, I didn't start running pixel response time calculations and equations... I just knew it was good enough for me to enjoy.
I wouldn't say the E350 dusted the E320, but you might. And that's fine with me. Say whatever you want. It doesn't make it true. Your physics equations are true, but your opinion is only that. And it seems to me that most on the forum were in defense of the E320 and what it can and will offer.
Your other post which claims the BlueTec is too dirty for California and the other 4 states is only partially true. Within about 90+ days, you'll eat those words forever. The first BlueTec vehicles may arrive her in California as early as August, although that is not firm yet. Either way, it is VERY soon. So, your big talk about how it can't be done... turns out to be wrong.
Guess what? Those Mercedes engineers used physics and chemistry to take the diesel engine of the past, and turn it into a modern clean, smoother, quieter, and environmentally-friendly, fuel efficient engine of the future!!! For a guy that seems to be into physics, chemistry and mathematics, I'm surprised you didn't realize that it could be done! :shades:
TagMan
It might be your opinion that the 0.9 second difference between E320D and E350 is no big deal. I don't have to have that opinion at all, nor do anyone else. Nor do anyone paying over $5000 price premium to get E350 over E280 or C350 over C280 in order to get half a second advantage accept that opinion. Nor did you when you suggested S600's $40,000 price premium to shave off half a second over S550 was worth the monetary difference. I find it rather astounding that you would honestly believe that the diesel premium is only $1000 when the wheels and brakes are smaller and the 0-60 is off by as much as 0.9 seconds. The performance difference alone should be worth at least $5000, just going by the E280 vs. E350 price difference.
The first BlueTec vehicles may arrive her in California as early as August, although that is not firm yet. Either way, it is VERY soon. So, your big talk about how it can't be done... turns out to be wrong.
I have no idea what "big talk" you are putting into my mouth. A 208hp V6 is certainly not high ouput in this day and age. Frankly, until the car is actually available for sale in California and Northeast, and until it survives a few years without massive emission control system failures because fuel mix-up's, even the low oup-put Bluetec is vaporware for its "clean" claim.
Guess what? Those Mercedes engineers used physics and chemistry to take the diesel engine of the past, and turn it into a modern clean, smoother, quieter, and environmentally-friendly, fuel efficient engine of the future!!!
Hmm, I'm sensing that even you are giving up on the high performance claim made earlier. I'm not surprised by the "hiccup" on the V8 Bluetec at all. Some basic knowledge of math, physics and chemistry plus a little automotive engineering goes a long way in helping judging what's realistic what's hype.
The idea of a DIESEL hybrid is MUCH better than the gas, IMO. THAT is what I'm going to support, when it comes to a hybrid. I can easily see a fuel efficient diesel engine married to an electric motor, delivering 100 - 150 mpg or more, especially if there is plug-in as well.
But, when it comes to fuel savings, the gas ICE is finished, IMO. As I look to the future, I see ethanol as a big possibility, and even though a drop of ethanol does not contain the same amount of energy as a drop of gasoline, I believe that it might be environmentally a better choice, and even an ethanol hybrid would be something that I would support.
But at this point in time, I'm supporting the use of clean diesels, increased ethanol production, and the EVOLUTION of the hybrid to be utilized with fuels other than gasoline, and to utilize MUCH better battery technology.
Hope that is clearer.
TagMan
Well, brightness... let me know if C&D makes such a comparison. Somehow, I strongly doubt it... but back to what we're talking about here... and that is that they DID make a comparison article between the E320 BlueTec and the E350, which you said should never have happened. Well, guess what? It happened! And I agree with the comp. It makes sense.
TagMan
HA! So... for the first few years of its existence, you will not recognize it? It will be vaporware to you? Holy smokes, do you think the first three years of Prius sales were "vaporware"?
BTW, ANY car with the wrong fuel could have lots of serious problems. Not just the new diesel. Gosh, is this news?
TagMan
1. "Pure hybrid" is a hype. There is nothing "pure" about it. The marketting distinction seems to be hinging on whether the car can drive entirely on electric only. In that case, GS450H may not be a pure hybrid, nor perhaps even LS460hL. What's more, there's no reason why Honda can't program IMA to allow independent electric operation; nor even Mitsubishi's idea of having motors driving wheels directly.
2. mpg ratings on plug-in's are bunkers. If the ICE is not turned on, the mpg rating can be infinite :-) Nice perpetual motion machine :-) Realisticly, aside from essentially running an electric car that waste energy by carrying around a heavy ICE that doesn't get used much at all, we are not going to have 100-150mpg car any time soon if the electricity used up in charging the batteries are factored into equivalent fuel gallons.
3. Diesel hybrids would be even heavier than gasoline hybrids . . . emission will be a big issue. Diesel engines don't benfit as much as gasoline engines in fuel savings from being shut down at stops. On the other hand, cooled off catalytic converter could be a real problem for diesel emission controls.
4. Ethanol is hype and politics because of Iowa Caucus. Growing corn to make ethanol makes no economic sense whatsoever. Hawaii is one of the very few places on earth where ethanol might make sense if they make it from sugar cane, largely because the transportation cost of shipping petrleum products to Hawaii. Even in that case, IMHO, they'd be better off continuing to burn their sugar cane to generate electricity, and then run electric cars.
"Clean diesel" IMHO is still vaporware . . . and that AdBlue vapor may not pass EPA muster at all, and fail miserably in the real life in subsequent years even if EPA passes it under political pressure.
WOULD HAVE?? What good is "would have", meaning that there is no reality, only a supposition!!
There is no such car as an E280 for sale here, yet you think we should compare it? Yikes!
The BlueTec E320 is a REALITY, yet you think we should not compare it?? Yikes again!
So, you are now suggesting that we compare cars that can't even be purchased!!... and further suggest that we can't compare the ones that CAN be purchased!!
WOW... whatever you say. :confuse: :sick:
TagMan
Who ever said a shutdown must happen at full-stop anyway? You are not thinking out of the box. Of course the diesel hybrid would not operate exactly as a gas hybrid would. The inherent characteristics of the diesel would have to be considered.
Right now, the hybrid is mated to the gas ICE, so it makes sense for the gas ice's characteristics to be the ones that are taken into consideration. If mated to the diesel, then those characteristics would be considered, of course.
TagMan
The issue with ammonia will be solved beyond the urea container anyway. For now, it's aleady solved in the 4-bangers, but the bigger engines still need it. In time, technology will solve that as well.
And, yes, it is only your opinion, but in reality, the clean diesel is upon us. The E320 BlueTec just recently won the "World Green Car of the Year" Award at the NYIAS. Let me guess... you don't think that means anything. OK, fine.
TagMan
Which Mercedes dealership can we buy it? Some FOREIGN country perhaps?!!
TagMan
You know my take on media hypes . . . it's right up there with kiss of death :-)
I didn't say it couldn't be "off" at idle, I said it doesn't necessarily have to be shup down at a complete stop or at the moment of starting. That is the way a GASOLINE hybrid works. I would leave it to the engineers to do the proper software/hardware programming anyway.
TagMan
My opinion on this is that the LS600hL may possibly be more of a victim of media hype than the BlueTec diesel engines. I believe that it is entirely possible that the Ls600hL will deliver LESS than many folks expected it to in the way of fuel economy.
The BlueTecs on the other hand, will shine when it comes to fuel economy and clean emissions. We will see soon, and either you or I will be wrong.
I'm willing to place a little wager here if you would like.
Sounds like you are suggesting that the BlueTec is just hype and will not achieve its claim... and I am saying that they will. So, I'm ready to bet... but it needs to wait until after tomorrow. It's late and I'm done for the night.
TagMan
Diesels have an Audi-esque history in this country, and have a lot to overcome in perception.
Hybrids have gotten off to a godd start, at the right time. No real growing pains worth mentioning, and are on a steady upswing. On a Toyota growth curve, if you will.
Elvis Costello marvels at the Lexus Mark Levinson digital sound system in their newest commercial. Not a fan of him, but he sure is selling that system!
I guess there's room for one more on the badwagon!
DrFill
I believe that a diesel hybrid can be done and will be done, no matter what you say. Time will tell who is right.
But, I've really got to quit for now. Goodnight.
TagMan
Diesels have an Audi-esque history in this country, and have a lot to overcome in perception.
Hybrids have gotten off to a godd start, at the right time. No real growing pains worth mentioning, and are on a steady upswing. On a Toyota growth curve, if you will.
There is much truth to this. The apple computer's original operating system was typically recognized as a better one than the dos-based original windows operating system that Bill Gates peddled on everyone... yet the PC became the one that "perceptions" caused to dominate.
The same could happen with the hybrid. I agree that the perception is hugely in favor of the Toyota hybrid.
It remains to be proven if it can (or even should) change.
TagMan
Bluetec is an empty marketing term that can mean whatever MB claims it to mean depending on the latest hiccup. The hype/myth is busted once already. The name itself meant the inclusion of the blue liquid urea injection. When that failed to get past EPA in time, Bluetec just became a generic name for CDI engines.
The fact that you are no longer even mentioning high performance claims regarding diesel goes to show the validity of my earlier statements.