Luxury Lounge

esf

There seems to be no activity in the S-Class forums, so I decided to come back here for advice.

I had read the reviews; yes, yes, and yes, the W221 S-Class was the king of the hill once again. It supposedly drove like a dream, had an ultra-luxury interior and went like stink. Once my wife expressed interest in it, I jumped at the chance to drive it for myself... I wasn't going to go drive an S550 for no reason.

I went with my car-loving son to our local MB dealer (without my wife, as this was a premature test drive), and I came away more impressed than I had ever expected. All of the reviews were correct. My son, engulfed in the superior leather of the "rear cabin," groaned, "Dad, I could get used to this," right in the middle of the test drive. Not only was the car perhaps the most comfortable I had ever driven, and the interior was exquisite down to the last detail (it even puts the A8's to shame), but the handling was far beyond any other full-size I had driven. Read: although I hadn't driven a 750, I had driven a 745Li when my friend owned one (they traded it in for an S550, of course), and the S's handling seemed superior in addition to its heavenly ride quality.

As if you can't tell, this is one of my favorite sedans on the road right now, if not THE favorite. I could go on and on, immersing myself in my own praise for the vehicle. But I must get to the point-- it's a lot of money. Her S550 4Matic, which we would need for the brutal winters, would come in at a bit over $95K... factor in taxes, and it sails into six figures. Although it's probably worth it, I'm a bit scared; I would have to lease it.

That's where I wonder. All credible lease calculators that I've checked, including Mercedes's own, have informed me that it would cost anywhere from $750-1,000/mo. Factor in that she has an '04 RX330 with 45K miles (will have a bit over 50K when we trade it in), in very good condition; it should be worth about $25K, in addition to my $5-10K down payment. Keeping this in mind, would the lease rates be correct? Would some dealers be more adamant in their lease rates than others? And, importantly, would I be able to custom-order a car that I was to lease, or is that only available for buyers?

Thanks for any replies... I need it, or I won't be able to sleep at night thinking about this car. They should steal Infiniti's motto- this isn't just a car, the S550 is beyond machine.



'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

brightness04

IMHO, if you can lease a car that you would have to pay $100k+ for only $750-1000/mo, leasing is a great deal. Just to put the numbers into perspective, The total payment over 36moths will add up to less than 30% of MSRP (and half of it would be interest cost at market interest rate), and cars in this class seldomly even hold up 50% of MSRP after three years. In an interest environment of 6% that we have now, and a realistic 50% 36-mo resale value for those cars, a $50k-MSRP car should have a monthly payment of close to $800/mo assuming $47k cap cost.

That being said, it's usually recommended not to put too much money down when leasing, just because if the car is totalled in the middle of a lease, you will get nothing back. Of course, you'd lose a big bundle too if you owned the car and totalled it within the first 36 months. In any case, in order for a $750-1000/mo payment to be produced for a car that's priced at $100k+, they must be offering very favorable lease interest rate, which may actually be lower than what you can collect at the bank or the treasury; you may want to consider getting a check back when trading in the RX intead of putting it into the lease, assuming you don't want to sell the car on your own (yes, it would be hard to sell a $25k used car on one's own).

brightness04

hahaha, I'm living through it right now :-( My wife and I have fights every day over staff time vs. my time. That's why I spend time here, just to get away from my real life. Money can not always buy happiness, espeically when one is married to someone who is determined not to allow that purchase to take place ;-) What I found a modicum of success in that regard is that, intead of looking for a help for her, let her find one on her own even if it's only a part-time, so she can have a help who is closer to her own age and have more in common; that's how I was able to convince her to get a person to help us out 5hrs per day and 5 days a week. That's nowhere nearly enough, but that's all she would allow at this point, never mind the risk of what if the person gets sick or have to quit due to her own family reasons. I guess there's some kind of hard-wiring going on regarding child rearing just like some guys would have a tough time putting up with a situation where the wife makes more money than he does even if it means an easier physical life for him. I guess, when we married someone who want babies, all we guys heard was the ultimate goal of happy and well-adjusted babies, whereas the women were thinking about the process/experience of raising babies first-hand just like in the playset she had when she was little, and that we guys are just the draft labor for that wish-fulfillment ;-)

tagman

I've read all the posts, and I see that I must have missed some sort of meltdown while I was on vacation.

There is only one point I want to make about all that BMW financial stuff. It's my opinion that lj was making the case that the aggressive leases made available by BMW were due to negative circumstances at BMW. While I do not want to re-start that argument, I do believe that there can also be positive reasons for the same marketing behavior. I also want to point out that making attempts to increase sales volume doesn't always have to be done with aggressive leasing. I think Lexus was a great historical example. Instead of offering special lease deals, Lexus simply sold their vehicles at cut-rate bargain prices to begin with. In other words, the MSRP was already slashed in its original form. For many years, Lexus subsidized the purchase by offering their vehicles with an MSRP that almost looked like they were guilty of "dumping" cars. So, with regards to BMW, the alternative to the Lexus price-slashing approach is to slash the depreciation and offer a bargain in the form of a cut-rate lease.

Which is better? Well... it is apparent that both approaches will sell more cars, although the Lexus approach theoretically should support higher resale values, while the BMW approach is highly-competitive when comparing other vehicles with similar values..

TagMan

esf

Thanks for the advice. A few replies:

That being said, it's usually recommended not to put too much money down when leasing...

Although I would usually agree, I can (thankfully) afford to take that risk, and if I put less than $30,000 down (incl. the trade-in), the lease rates would balloon to within $500 of finance rates per month.

... you may want to consider getting a check back when trading in the RX instead of putting it into the lease...

I'm inclined to agree, actually. It makes more sense to have the dealer sell it; I almost decided to sell our prior RX300 myself, but Lexus gave me a better price than I probably would've ever gotten. The RX has amazing resale, as the sticker was $46K; so far it's only dropped about $15K. High demand.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330

lexusguy

Well, you realize that BMW just hasn't really felt a need to. The tuners have been having a ball with the N54 engine, and can easily tune it to 400+hp-- and BMW could probably do an even better job increasing the power.

It remains to be seen what the new Skyline's engine can do. The final Nismo tuned GT-R made around 550hp from 2.8L, so its safe to say Nissan isn't done yet. It may not do 0-60 in less than four seconds, but I'm pretty sure Nissan is determined to beat the 911 Turbo around "the ring".

ljflx

I hardly want to get back into that. But I posted that BMW would have no problem leasing plenty of cars at higher prices (by removing future risk and lowering residuals), just not their desired sales level. The other thing I noted was that analysts were not impressed because they looked to pricing power as a strength and increasing risk to lower lease prices is not an indication that you have pricing power (again here pricing power is relative to desired unit sales). If you did you wouldn't need to take the risk. I'm not being negative just using my business common sense.

volvomax

With Mercedes you can order whatever you want.
You would get whatever lease program is in force when your car is delivered to the dealer.
Given the popularity of the S-Class, I doubt any Benz dealer will give you buy rate on the lease.

soogiedave

Hi,
I am installing a jvc kdnx5000 dvd/gps navigation system in my 2000 s40. I need to tap into the cruise control speed sensor line as part of the install. Can someone tell me where the cruise control module is located and the color code of the wire I need to tap into?
Any other information that is helpful would also be appreciated.
Thanks,
David

blckislandguy

Three unsolicited thoughts:

1) If you kept the options to a mimimum, wouldn't an S550 with 4Matic have an MSRP of 91K and a transaction price in the high 80's?? (I know this is not much different from "a bit over 95K" but as my father would say, better in your pocket than in their pocket.)

2) If your wife already has 45K miles on her three year old car, you might run into excess mileage charges with most leases.

3) Given that these things depreciate like a rock in a millpond and that you have a son whose higher education probably isn't yet complete, maybe you should wait a couple of years and buy one for 55K in the fall of 2009 when the new 2010 Porsche Panamerica is out? That fall all the hot money will be shifting to the newest sedan on the block as the S550 will be a couple years old. (That fall is also when the people who snapped up the '06 MY S500 and assorted Bentley GTs and Flying Spurs will be seeking a change.) At that time you could more easily sell the Lexus yourself on the secondary market.

tagman

Noted. And with that, we'll let you have the last word on the entire matter. (hopefully)

Goodness Lj, while I was in Hawaii enjoying weather fit for Gods, I learned that your state (and others) has been hit with some type of fierce Northeastern storm of some sort that only happens once every couple of decades. I mean they actually reported that snow plows were being used to push water off the freeways.

Are you affected, or is it not as bad as they make it sound?

TagMan

ljflx

About 4.5" of rain. Winds were not as bad as advertised though we will likely get 50-60mph winds tomorrow with rain and snow showers. Eastern LI has received gusts as high as 79mph today and shore areas of NJ got to 65mph. Where I am though winds have really only been 20-30mph. I've seen much worse here. In the blizzard of 96 we had 20' drifts, 3' of snow and 60mph winds with sub 20 temps. This is actually a stronger storm than that but it's placement is holding the winds down over inland areas. But whoever gets the worst conditions of this storm (southern New England, Boston,Block island guys area is the most likely) will get walloped with tidal flooding, beach erosion and probably hurricane force wind gusts.

tagman

Well, I'm glad that you are getting off easy, as compared to the other areas. Too bad for them, though. Sounds just awful. As a beach lover, the beach erosion always saddens me.

BTW, here's a recent review of the LS460 by the SF Chronicle:

link title

TagMan

houdini1

Thanks for the review. I went on record months ago that the self parking feature was "silly" and I haven't changed my mind.

I saw a black LS400 yesterday that looked brand new. Simpler days. I have to admit it is still my fav LS. Very simple and elegant.

tagman

Thanks for the review. I went on record months ago that the self parking feature was "silly" and I haven't changed my mind.

Your welcome. Since you bring up the self-park feature, I think that most of us here would agree with you that the self-park feature is "silly", as you put it so nicely. There have been less forgiving descriptions on some of the forums of that feature.

I wonder, though, if there has been even one person here that has been in support of that feature. I can't remember even one. Doc?... Nah... no way.

TagMan

drfill

Help me out. I hear there are A LOT of rough edges in the drivetrain of the G35, and it is nowhere near the smoothness of the IS or 3-series. Anything over torque peak is pretty rough and tumble. :lemon:

I dig the car, but I heard things. I heard some things.

Your take? :confuse:

DrFill

lexusguy

Help me out. I hear there are A LOT of rough edges in the drivetrain of the G35, and it is nowhere near the smoothness of the IS or 3-series. Anything over torque peak is pretty rough and tumble.

The 3 series definitely has the smoother drivetrain. The G35 has *almost* equal handling, and has better electronics. The IS can't compete with either when it comes to handling.

designman

Are you affected, or is it not as bad as they make it sound?

Yeah it's pretty bad. The only good news is that the winds were not as heavy as expected in my area. However we got around 8 inches of rain in less than a 24-hour period in Westchester County NY and there aren't too many homes that were not affected in addition to ALL of the parkways being flooded.

I stayed home from work today and am involved in basement flood management. Thankfully my situation is controllable because I am sweeping all seepage into the drain... been doing it all day. Others aren't so fortunate. Some of my neighbors have heavy accumulations in their basements. Evidently there are some serious flood situations in Westchester, New Jersey, Connecticut, Long Island and other areas all over the East Coast north of the Carolinas.

The town firemen were around to assess the situation in my area and they told me our house got off light. A lot of homes in the neighborhood had upwards of 7 feet of water in their basements and had to be evacuated.

I've been in my house for 23 years and never had water. This is a first. It's just coming up from the cracks in the foundation. There are a lot of old homes around here like mine and the foundations settle and crack over the course of many years—not a good situation for a Nor’easter of this magnitude.

tagman

D-man - Good luck with the basement. Comparatively, it does sound like you got off easy, as did Len.

Global warming is supposed to bring more dramatic weather and increased precipitation. I just wonder if this ... ???

Take care,

TagMan

designman

Thanks, T-Man.

cyclone4

Here west of the Mississippi we have an absolutely glorious day today after historically cold weather for about 10 days this month. It is perfectly clear with temperatures in the 70s this afternoon. After receiving about 6-7 inches of rain the Boston area dried out today as the dry slot associated with the very intense low pressure system moved into southern New England. It dried out in time to get the Red Sox game played (start was delayed 2 hours). It turned out great as my Red Sox swept the Angels (7-2 today). Big Papi hit another long one.

Len and D-man, I am happy to hear you both escaped the worst of the storm. There has been severe flooding across much of the area from NJ north through southern New England. Heavy wet snows were confined to northwestern New England and up-state NY.

I have not heard the update yet about the LS600HL I ordered. I am waiting to hear from the Midwest production manager on which options I can order with the Premium 2 package with advanced pre-collision.

tagman

I have not heard the update yet about the LS600HL I ordered.

OMG, I forgot that you went ahead with that car. Congratulations (in advance). Somehow I thought you were going to get the LS460L, similar to Len's. So, you're willing to pay that premium? I'm curious - why would you decide to go with the 600 instead of a loaded 460L? :confuse: Certainly it's not the extra mpg's, cause they will never ever come close to helping anyone recoup the extra price for the car.

BTW, it's sunny, dry, slight breeze, and about 74 degrees here today, and I am suddenly considering that very fortunate! :shades:

TagMan

ljflx

I ended up at 5.5" of rain in the end vs more than 9" in NYC. That's a big difference. When I said the storm wasn't as bad as it could have been or vs past Nor'easters I was really referring to wind and tidal flooding. We were saved on both of those because the storm tracked just inland from the coast. Had it been offshore 100-200 miles winds would have hit 75mph in gusts frequently at the shore and the tides would have been atrocious. That's what happened in Dec 1992 - a storm that produced severe tidal flooding and winds that gusted to near 100mph at the shore and we also got 5-10" of rain. On the barometer that storm and this storm were equals but that storms placement maximized damage while this storms placement minimized it. Also that 1992 storm produced about 6" of snow the next day and forced me to cancel a flight to Amsterdam. I went the next night on a flight that got me in at 7AM and had to present an all day budget to the executive board on virtually no sleep. You don't forget storms that cause things like that.

drfill

My official stance on the "Self-Park" is it reinforces the image of the LS as an innovative vehicle, some innovations are more obvious than others. It coincides with the 8-speed, hybrid engine, and Executive Seating.

As a New York boy, the "Self-Park" is appealing, if not the most pragmatic feature. It works slower than would be ideal. In 5 years, the time will be down to 30-40 seconds.

It does work as advertised, but it's not for everyone.

It's primary function is to get fannies in the seats. Drum up more elite business clientele.

Lexus knows how to sell a car. Give a great car some sizzle people have been asking for. It's a sexy feature. And I heard sex sells.

Some companies listen to customers, even "critics". Good job, Lexus! Keep it comin'.

DrFill

ljflx

I loved the 3 series handling but couldn't get past it's clunky style and dull interior. The drivetrain was excellent and the car is a winner despite styling that IMO compromises it badly. Still I wanted it just to have a BMW and I think it looks best in the darker gray graphite color. The 3 was the cheapest car on lease of the group including the IS. I never looked at the IS because I found it to cramped when I sat in one in the showroom back in January. But I do like it's styling. It was the most expensive lease but I got prices on the phone only.

The G is about 95% of the 3's handling, nicer riding and much more luxurious (to me) on the interior. It actually feels and looks like a great blend of sport and luxury and the value was there. I couldn't resist it and I love the styling plus it was the car the family liked the best. The new 2008 G coupe is an awesome looking car and has me so so tempted.

brightness04

IMHO, self-parking is one of those version 1.0 features that look silly on the first try, but eventually become ubiquitous . . . just like the GPS (intially leading some gentleman drving his BMW into the river because he did not see the ferry marking) and the laser cruise-control (first version kept slowing down the car to a crawl in the turns) . . . or automatic climate control and seat warmers in an earlier time. Personally, I adjusted to GPS very quickly (despite GPS systems being quite slow back in 1997), but the automatic climate control thing bugged me for a long time when I intended to keep the cars for a long time as I tried to reduce the compressor cyclin ;-) Nowadays cars are kept for relatively short time, dead compressors would be the next guy's concern :-)

brightness04

Yup, we are lucky with this one in the Boston area. The weather is actually quite warm and dry for a "Nor'easter." The Boston Marathon actually took place as schedule today, running right through the town . . . dehydration is less of a concern this time around :-) At the house, we actually had a small water leak in our basement during the big down pour back in March, so we had the gutter cleared a couple days ago after the forecast, the basement stayed bone try this time around. Just as I was about to proclaim that the weathermen/women must have hyped this "nor'easter" thing, then I saw snow flakes in the live video feed from Virginia Tech; that would be 600 miles to the south of us! What a strange day. . .

Congrats on the LS600HL purhase. Can't wait to read a review from you.

designman

So, you're willing to pay that premium? I'm curious - why would you decide to go with the 600 instead of a loaded 460L?

Tag, haven't you been reading the Lexus threads? I've been skulking around there and it's plain to see that Cyclone has his heart set on the 600hL. I don't think anyone will talk him out of it. I have to admit I see the magical appeal in that car and I hope it turns out to be everything he is looking forward to. I was really impressed with the drivetrain in the GS 450h. I wish I could get a drive in the 600 when it comes out but that will be next to impossible.

cyclone4

There are several reasons I decided to go with the LS600HL:

1.I found out the trunk size is about 12 cf and not really minuscule as we had been hearing. This is acceptable for me although I obviously would prefer it to be larger.
2.This car is even more high tech (I love high tech) than the LS460L. For example, it has the advanced pre-collision system.
3.It has AWD and the LS460 does not. I really wanted AWD this time for winter driving here in the Midwest.
4.It is a hybrid and this does give me some satisfaction that I am doing something to help out the environment.
5.I am not just paying a premium for the hybrid. This vehicle has other features not found on the LS460L.
6.It's only money We cannot take it to the grave.

BTW, I (along with Len) have been posting information about this car on the LS600HL forum. I am most likely going with a one payment up-front 3 year lease. I will keep you guys informed (probably on that forum) on my experiences before and especially after I have the car in my possession (June or July).

drfill

BTW, what kinda mileage, real world, do you guys expect out of "The New Fast"?

And does the emblem up front really glow blue, like at the Auto Show? Matching door sills, illuminated?

DrFill

cyclone4

The official EPA mileage data is not yet available. But I am of the opinion that if the LS460 gets 19city/27highway, then the LS600HL will likely get an average of about 26 mpg. I have heard from some reviews that the LS600HL got an average of 21mpg, but I find this hard to believe. I think it will be considerably better than 21. I believe the official release of all the specs is April 23.

BTW, I heard that EPA ratings are now more stringent. Whatever the gas mileage is, I can't wait to drive this car.

blckislandguy

While I think that the self parking deal is silly, I see your well expressed idea that this is simply the first iteration. Kind of like the "semi" automatic transmission in my grandmothers 49 Buick.

brightness04

Very good points. The AWD and extra features certainly make the hybrid advantage over the regular V8 even more compelling than the usual V12 alternative that quite a few people choose over the V8 in other mfrs' lineups.

tagman

What do you guys think? Is this Genesis thing can't miss or am I somewhat justified in my skepticism?

Hard to say with any certainty, Doc. The Genesis may possibly enter uncharted territory. The argument for its success is compelling, IMO. But there are reasons to be doubtful as well.

I guess if you pushed me early here to make a prediction, I'd have to forecast that the Hyundai Genesis will be a winner. And for now, I'll give you the primary reason. It is one you'll understand because you are a Lexus fan. So, IMO, that primary reason for my early-predicted Genesis success is "value". So, at this point in time, it appears to me that the Genesis will offer a bucketload of value... and we're talking genuine value here... and simultaneously do so at a sweet spot in the commonly affordable price tier.

Now, I realize that there are arguments against the car, but I'm still going with the "value card" for now, because it is historically a powerful purchase motivator.

I completely reserve the right to change my mind on this one, though, Doc, because it's still way too early, and I would want more information on the real driving dynamics of this car to form a more complete opinion of it and how I see its future.

But for now, you've got my prediction for the Genesis, as you asked.

TagMan

2001gs430

Brightness, it sounds like you have things pretty much sorted out regarding family, work/earning, and car/car-financing. How the heck do you have time to do all that?

That's why I spend time here, just to get away from my real life
I know exactly what you meant.

I have read in your earlier posts that you have a High Lander and a Saab. What do you have for the lux ride? or you don't care for the high end lux vehicles? which one interested you, if you were to get one of these vehicle in the next couple of years.

brightness04

I wish (that I had everything sorted out ;-) Having assistants definitely helps a lot.

I had a couple 5 series years ago; then I started a business around the turn of the century which involves quite a lot of client interaction. A highline car just would not sit right with the clientelle base that I had at the time; plus, carry capacity requirement at the time precluded sedans. That's why I got the Saab 9-5 wagon in 2001, and the Highlander in 2004. I seem to have a schedule of one car every three years, and keeping 2-3 cars at a time. Nowadays, a significant portion of my clients are showing up in Lexus/BMW/MB, I am considering one of the choices. Some of the lease deals actually make for great values both for myself and as employee incentives. If not for the ridiculously high money factor, I'd already put my money down for a 335Ci convertible. Of course, a convertible can not be the primary car for a family with a baby; that's why the upcoming lux minivans intrigue me very much.

brightness04

IMHO, value is not just a ratio between spec-sheet over price. Reliability is a huge component of "value," especially for those whose time opportunity cost is high. Most major luxury brands ("major" as in holding 10% or more of luxury market share at one time or another) have achieved that status by selling vehicles that were/are perceived to have significant reliability edge over their contemporaries. That was the case for Rolls-Royce in the 1910's and 20's, MB in the 20's and 30's, Cadillac in the 50's and 60's, MB again in the 70's and 80's, as well as Lexus in the 90's and 00's. BMW seems to be the lone exception to that rule, having become a major luxury brand without particularly outstanding reliability record; then again, its success is in selling the entry-level luxury cars where performance can the be main selling point, not the higher end luxury market. I doubt Lexus would have found success beyond that of a Buick if not for its reliability edge; for that matter, I doubt Lexus would have found the success that it did if MB maintained its reliability edge over the rest of the industry like it had bak in the 80's.

In other words, the success or failure of Genesis will be very much dependent on how Hyundai exeutes on quality/reliability, especially vis the existing players in the premium brand market place. It's the relative performance that counts.

brightness04

Forgot to mention, if all this lease subsidy goes away in the market place and everyone has to pay cash and actually own the car instead of handing back a problematic car every couple or three years, I'd buy a GS450H with AWD configured like in the LS600H (probably will happen in the next couple years). If treasury interest rate drops to near zero again, I'd consider LS600H too, but right now, forgoing $5000+ a year in interest income on top of the normal depreciation is too a high price to pay for the incremental gain achieved, given my own income and the need to save for the kid's college etc.. The real cost of a car goes up dramaticly for me once it surpasses a certain price point because tax code mandates that the amount over a certain threshold can not be considered business expense, but have to be written down as fringe benefits to whoever gets to ride the car, so it would have to be paid with after-tax money instead of pre-tax money. That effectively doubles the price for us.

cyclone4

I just posted this on the LS600HL Forum as well:

I got the expected news from the dealer today. Basically, the Midwest production manager told my dealer that if I special order, I have zero chance of getting the LS600HL at least until some time next year. In fact, they are not even taking any special orders now. They are making so few of these cars that the news is not shocking to me.

Thus, my order is in for the Premium 2 Package with the Advanced Pre-collision System. I was told that even with this non-special order, it may be the end of the year before I can get this car. It depends on the color combos, etc. They were not at all kidding when they said they are only making about 2,000 of these the first year. BTW, I ordered the smokey granite mica with black interior.

designman

Are you ready to compromise? Either way you could be at their mercy. And if demand is high, you could be out of luck if you are not prepared to pay what the market will bear. This is the problem with a limited-production car.

I know you probably don't want to hear this but there is also chance that this car will take a value hit. When the Porsche Carrera GT and last GT2 came out they commanded premiums only to eventually plummet in price.

Aren't you first on your dealer's list? Does this mean you could have the first one that comes in regardless of how it is configured? Depends on how bad you want it.

tayl0rd

...the Midwest production manager told my dealer that if I special order, I have zero chance of getting the LS600HL at least until some time next year. ...

How's this different from "special ordering" any other Lexus? Tell 'em you want to order a GS or IS and see how long they tell you the wait will be.

cyclone4

I have already been promised MSRP. That is not my concern at all. I am not at their mercy with pricing.

Yes, I am first on the list and I theoretically could grab the very first one that is available to my dealer (pretty large dealer) as long as I settle for the color combo and the package. However, I want the smokey granite with black interior. I think that Lexus will produce quite a few (all relative of course) with this combo and with the advanced pre-collision, so I should have a chance to get one sometime during the summer.

cyclone4

How's this different from "special ordering" any other Lexus? Tell 'em you want to order a GS or IS and see how long they tell you the wait will be.

The thing that makes this very different is that Lexus is only building a few LS600HL's. Imagine only 2,000 for the entire U.S. and then perhaps you can grasp of how difficult it is to get one with your specifications.

tagman

Well, "value" is certainly a features/price ratio that favors features, but the inclusion of a reasonable level of reliability is an inherent component. If those features can't perform well or be delivered and serviced properly, they would have less value.

Hyundai reputation seems to be holding water well enough for the Genesis project to move forward with success, and still based upon the "value" factor that I spoke of... regardless of how we all define it... it is still "value" as defined in its entirety that I see as the fundemental factor to determine its success or failure.

TagMan

houdini1

Even at their bargain basement prices Hyundai seems to have very poor resale value. I don't know if this reputation is actually based on their cars on just on perception.

IMO poor resale would be the main factor in not considering them as a value leader. If Genesis can overcome this shortcoming then it might succeed. The prototype sure looked nice and their reputation does seem to be improving. I hope it is a home run.

lexusguy

Even at their bargain basement prices Hyundai seems to have very poor resale value. I don't know if this reputation is actually based on their cars on just on perception.

Resale values seem to take a very long time to catch up to the current realities of the marketplace. The latest Hyundai products like the Sonata and Azera are for the most part on par with their Japanese counterparts, but that won't be reflected in resale. The Camry and Accord will continue to hold their value far better. Jag is still struggling with its '80s quality rep when it comes to resale. Mercedes' '80s quality rep on the other hand is helping them.

ljflx

Remember Mazda and the Amati it thought could enter the class. I hope it left space in the basement for the Genesis. Infiniti is still struggling 17 years later to hold it's own and still lacks a full line. Acura is still trying to figure out where it should be. The Genesis has a 0% chance IMO.

blckislandguy

Now that the Section 179 6000 lb. GVW thing has gone away, doesn't the IRS treat corporate spending on a used car the same as on a new one? If so, wouldn't an '04 S Class with 4matic be a good deal for you at 41K? Or a used E Class wagon?(Before the Section 179 thing went away, you could use corporate funds to buy a Cayenne at effectively one third off list.)

lexusguy

Remember Mazda and the Amati it thought could enter the class.

Its not quite the same situation. The Amanti and Xedos luxury brands that Mazda created were just two of a bunch of brands that the company had, and they were already well beyond their ability to manage those brands before Amanti and Xedos were even created. The money and talent to create the Amati 1000 V12 RWD full size luxury car just wasn't there, and the Amati 500 became the Millenia. Mazda had no direction in the '90s anyway, it's only been very recently that they've found their niche as an affordable, reliable alternative to VW.

Hyundai is a juggernaut in their home market, Mazda is a bit player. Whether or not Hyundai luxury cars (or a separate brand) will succeed here won't depend on their ability to actually build the products, like it did with Mazda.

tagman

Both of your posts regarding, first - your resale perspective, and second - the unique nature of the Genesis as compared to others, were right on target, IMO, and very well explained.

Additionally, I would mention to Lj that the Genesis is not an entire brand with numerous models, as is Infiniti and Acura. It is a single model that simply moves an already existing and successful marque a notch higher, and does so at a very attractive price point. I still see the Genesis as a likely success.

And, frankly, I think it's going to piss off some luxury buyers that paid the more typical higher penalty to get their piece of luxury. Just imagine all that luxury with some genuine engineering and respectable components built-in for a bargain price between $30K and $40K. If the Genesis performs reasonably well... and there are reasons to expect it will... the auto rags will have a field day with sensational headlines... and then the newspaper columnists will follow.

It's certainly not a slam dunk, but I see lots of potential here for success.

TagMan