That is a big long post that covers no new ground whatsoever. You should be praising Toyota for looking at trying to make their cars more foolproof. Foolproof is an interesting word is it not?
Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed.
I am not aware of any cars that currently have this feature but it sounds like a good idea. Why criticize Toyota for coming up with a good idea that might benefit all cars and drivers?
Why did it take 5 fatal accidents before a high profile case got the ball rolling? My opinion is that most of the accidents and incidents were brushed off by dealers. From the time Toyota offered drive by wire in the Prius there have been complaints here on Edmund's of sudden acceleration. Most did not end in serious accidents. The dealer would reset the ECU and tell the owner there was nothing wrong with the car. Other posters would make the owner feel like it was their fault somehow. Always discounting the possibility that a Toyota design could be flawed. I have to wonder if Toyota already knows there is a problem in their design and have just played the odds game as other auto makers have done in the past. I can tell you Toyota audio electronics are second rate crap on my Sequoia Limited. Why would their computer controls be any higher grade?
>Other posters would make the owner feel like it was their fault somehow
That is a part of the overall PR machine that has worked for certain companies in the past. A few overran talk of the problems as just fault of the driver. I believe the lag in acceleration that seemed to work its way through Toyota products and into the Camry last we passed off as the driver just needs to learn to adjust to the car? That's not very comforting when the driver has just floored it to merge into rush hour traffic and the car isn't moving for 2 seconds.
His lawyers allege that the seat belt, with a design defect, opened upon impact and that Mack was thrown into the dashboard with such force that he fractured vertebrae. Had the seat belt worked properly, the attorneys say, Mack would not have been thrown from his seat.
Ferrara alleges that Toyota engineers knew in 1991 the seat belts installed in some vehicles were defective and that they later installed a properly designed belt. But the company never issued a recall.
Many posters claim that Toyota and Honda will make changes under the guise of TSBs or as part of routine maintenance. That seems proactive. Yet it could be a way of sweeping known safety issues under the rug. A TSB does not carry the same weight or publicity that a recall carries.
read that article about the seat belt in the morning paper. It also referenced problems with Toyota shredding evidence in other lawsuits (I think it was brought up here not too long ago about a lawyer that had worked for them now suing?)
The sweeping under the rug part of th eseatbelt guys case is they are claiming that Toyota conveniently "lost" all footage of a 1991 crash test of the PU that showed the belt popping open.
This is bordering on the absurd about the rear-ended Toyota pickup driver. He was rear-ended by two vehicles while stopped. When rear-ended, your body moves rearward first. The most common injury is whiplash. If the impact(s) were severe enough, I could easily see vertebrae being fractured. How hard was he hit? The report doesn't say.
Yes, you do rebound forward afterward, but fractured vertebrae are not typical even if unbelted in frontal impacts. Head and chest injuries are more likely.
I think the issue is not just one case. It is an accumulation over several years. Toyota has a chink in their armor and the lawyers sitting on cases around the country are going to pounce all at once. You don't really believe the attorneys for Toyota are any less unscrupulous do you?
This problem with Toyota sweeping runaway acceleration under the rug goes way back. There are dozens of complaints to the NHTSA on the Prius alone dating to when it first came out. No recalls were ever issued, yet the complaints keep coming in. Finally after 5 fatal accidents all attributed to runaway acceleration, Toyota issues a recall. Though they are clueless as to what really happens???
Every manufacturer has pending litigation against it. The bigger you are, the more lawsuits in general.
Sudden acceleration has been alleged in just about all makes and models over the last 25 years or so. Just because someone claims it happened to them doesn't make it so. (That's why UFOs, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster haven't been proven to exist.) Every crash needs to be investigated in detail for the underlying cause.
Who knows? I find that even supposedly reliable news sources these days often sacrifice accuracy or truth in favour of releasing news quickly. After all they have plenty of time to publish retractions or apologies but only a short period to publish first.
The 2009 Lexus ES 350 shot through suburban San Diego like a runaway missile, weaving at 120 miles an hour through rush hour freeway traffic as flames flashed from under the car.
Sounds like an excerpt from Nancy Grace or one of those other tabloid "news" shows.
In a recent interview, Mack said he was certain he was wearing his seat belt because he always buckled the restraint before starting the vehicle, as required by his employer.
Is THAT the evidence on teh seat belt? That he's "sure" he had it on?
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
>Is THAT the evidence on teh seat belt? That he's "sure" he had it on?
What he's saying is he doesn't recall that individual drive because of the trauma suffered. Therefore he can't remember fastening the seat belt. Apparently the rescuerers didn't note that his belt was fastened or not. A severe trauma and lots of drugs spoils the memory. A friend was hospitalized for 4 days after surgery and then suffered septsis and was nearly dead for 5 and more days and in intensive care for 20 more. He remembered nothing.
I can swear that I would have put on my seatbelt if I were in a similar position. I do that everytime I start the car to leave the driveway. I've been using seatbelts since before they were required in cars in the 60s. I put my own in. I fasten a belt every trip. 100% certainty.
It was a post from Lemko on another lawsuit against Toyota. Supposedly Toyota had lost videos of crash tests from the vehicle this fellow had a crash in. had nothing to do with CRs research on runaway accelerators. However this video may explain it all.
I'm not blaming the victim. That sentence just didn't sound right to me.
I'm assuming that since the judge has the case still going that there is more evidence than that article states. If Toyota has destryed evidence hang 'em.
Like you there would be no question in my case. If the car is on the seat belt is buckled. It once saved me from at least serious injury and may have saved my life.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The sentence didn't sound right to me either. I always wear a seat belt, and have done so for decades. So I'd never say something like it's company policy, so I was buckled in.
As I said before, a seat belt isn't designed to offer much protection in a rear-end crash. In that case, the integrity of the seat back and head restraint is far more important.
Didn't sound right to me either. If my company required that I wear seat belts, what am I gonna do, say I didn't have it on? No, I would swear on a stack of bibles that I was securely belted in even if I couldn't remember.
I know right where that accident happened. It's just a few miles down the road. If I were driving to see lemko I'd pass it early in the trip. I'd comment on teh safety of the intersection but when you get hit standing still at a stop sign taht's not much of an issue.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Ashcraft and Gehrel, right? I remember those commercials from back when I was in high school and college; I'd always catch them in the middle of the day when I was on summer break. Usually sandwiched in between the commercial with Sally Struthers pushing some correspondence school, and the commercial for a truck driving academy that showed some guy who looked a little like Patrick Swayze getting slapped around. "Start working for yourself, and stop getting...slapped around!"
I guess they figure that if you're home in the middle of the day, you either need to get a job or sue someone. :P
I remember the commercial being for Saiontz and Kirk when I lived in the DC area. They also had a big ad at the old Memorial Stadium where the Orioles and Colts played.
But maybe the firm you mentioned used the same catch phrase!
Here in central VA, Robert Vaughn, the star of The Man from UNCLE in the 60s, pitches for Marks and Harrison.
It depends. In severe frontal crashes, there typically are friction burns on the shoulder belt where it passes through the upper anchorage. In lower severity crashes and in rollovers, side impacts, and rear-enders, it isn't very obvious.
Federal investigators found that the auto had rubber all-weather floor mats for a Lexus RX400h, which is a sport-utility vehicle, and that they were unsecured by the vehicle’s retaining clips. Toyota had previously stated that the mats were for a different Lexus vehicle but had not said which model.
The NHSTA report found that one of the two clips on the Saylor vehicles had pulled out of the carpeting and was lying under the floor mat. The other clip was still attached to the carpeting but not hooked into the floor mat.
In addition, the vehicle’s brake surfaces showed signs that they had been worn down through heavy braking against the full force of the 272 horsepower Lexus engine.
“Rotors were discolored and heated, had very rough surfaces, had substantial deposits of brake pad material, and showed signs of bright orange oxidation on the cooling fins consistent with endured braking,” the report said.
NHTSA investigators also noted that instructions for operating the car’s keyless ignition, which requires that the power button be pressed for three full seconds to turn off the engine at speed, were “not indicated on the dashboard.”
The San Diego County Sheriff’s Department is leading the investigation of the crash and has not yet released a final report. The NHTSA report indicated that the Sheriff’s Department had recovered an electronic data recorder, or black box, from the wreck, but that “no attempts to retrieve data from the EDR have yet been made.”
Lt. Julie Sutton of the Sheriff’s Department said today that the department has no comment on the NHTSA report, adding that it is not releasing any more information about the San Diego crash at this time.
My question. Why would you need all weather floor mats in San Diego? Last time it rained was February. You have to drive out in the country to find mud when it does rain.
Why would you need all weather floor mats in San Diego? Last time it rained was February. You have to drive out in the country to find mud when it does rain.
My guess is that because the vehicle was a dealer service loaner, the all weather mats were installed to protect the carpet and the carpeted floor mats from wear or stains.
Eventually, all the service loaner cars are sold as demos and I'm sure the dealer wants the cars in as good of condition as they can make them.
This has dealer negligence written all over it. They take out the original carpet mats, throw in the wrong all-weather mats for the car, and don't bother to secure the driver's mat. I suppose the car wasn't burned all that badly for the investigators to figure this out.
The car's a loaner, and it hardly rains in southern Cali, so why not just shampoo the carpets and original mats when the car gets sold eventually?
NHTSA investigators also noted that instructions for operating the car’s keyless ignition, which requires that the power button be pressed for three full seconds to turn off the engine at speed, were “not indicated on the dashboard.”
Get ready for big black, orange, red and white stickers plastered by the ignition button telling you how to shut off the engine while moving.
So the prior report about them being plastic mats was wrong after all.
I can't imagine those were even close to fitting. The RX has the shifter up on the dash, isn't the floor continuous from driver's side to passenger side?
How on earth did someone conclude they would fit? Seriously, what were they thinking? Here's a pic:
Looks much wider than a Camry/ES. Both of those have that wide center console.
Yes, but negligent is the name of the game at most dealer service departments, except for the master techs. 2/3 of the service staff are high schoolers making some extra money by changing oil, jockeying service vehicles around the yard, and washing them.
So you have to change vehicle designs to account for it I guess. As I said, the dumbing down of America.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The tie-straps would not have prevented this tragedy, though. If they didn't take time to bother using the hooks or even finding a mat that fits, would they really have used a pair of zip-ties?
Many people, after reading previous news stories, asked why Saylor did not shift the car into neutral. It has not yet been reported what gear the car was in when it crashed, and whether the experienced 20-year CHP veteran tried to change gears.
When asked if it is possible to shift a speeding Lexus with a wide-open accelerator into neutral, Toyota spokesman Lyons said: “Absolutely.” Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety in Washington, said shifting the car into neutral at that speed would be “difficult at best.”
Ditlow said the configuration of the gear shift panel, as outlined in a 2008 highway administration report, showed that the neutral position in the gear shift pattern was not immediately obvious, which led to unsuccessful attempts to disengage the engine.
A driver who is speeding down a crowded highway would have both hands on the wheel and would have to take his eyes off the road in order to see where neutral was, Ditlow said. He surmised that Saylor was trying not to hit anyone else on the crowded highway.
“It was a courageous example of someone who sacrificed his life to save others,” Ditlow said.
if the shift gating in an ES 350 looks anything like the RX, no wonder the driver couldn't find neutral. i just read the reply above, which seems to agree with my initial impression.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
>configuration of the gear shift panel, as outlined in a 2008 highway administration report, showed that the neutral position in the gear shift pattern was not immediately obvious
Along with no obvious clue to shutting off the ignition... this adds a whole new meaning to "Unsafe at Any Speed."
Can't find neutral easily. Can't shut off the ignition. Brakes can't stop the car.
Can't find neutral easily. Can't shut off the ignition. Brakes can't stop the car.
Makes you wonder what ToyLex engineers do besides eat donuts. :sick:
My Sequoia has good accelerator clearance and with the shift on the steering column it is very easy to shift from Drive to Neutral. That was one of my complaints to the BMW salesman when I test drove the X5 diesel. The wimpy shift mechanism felt more like a video game controller. I'm not sure I am ready to let a cheap Chinese control unit do all the work for me. We have not heard the last word on this business. I would imagine the price tag has gone up on those five fatal accidents that Toyota successfully shuffled off until this last one.
Comments
Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed.
I am not aware of any cars that currently have this feature but it sounds like a good idea. Why criticize Toyota for coming up with a good idea that might benefit all cars and drivers?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
All I have ever heard of is a "rev limiter" that kicks in when you shift into neutral...and most, if not all cars have that.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That is a part of the overall PR machine that has worked for certain companies in the past. A few overran talk of the problems as just fault of the driver. I believe the lag in acceleration that seemed to work its way through Toyota products and into the Camry last we passed off as the driver just needs to learn to adjust to the car? That's not very comforting when the driver has just floored it to merge into rush hour traffic and the car isn't moving for 2 seconds.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Ferrara alleges that Toyota engineers knew in 1991 the seat belts installed in some vehicles were defective and that they later installed a properly designed belt. But the company never issued a recall.
Many posters claim that Toyota and Honda will make changes under the guise of TSBs or as part of routine maintenance. That seems proactive. Yet it could be a way of sweeping known safety issues under the rug. A TSB does not carry the same weight or publicity that a recall carries.
The sweeping under the rug part of th eseatbelt guys case is they are claiming that Toyota conveniently "lost" all footage of a 1991 crash test of the PU that showed the belt popping open.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Yes, you do rebound forward afterward, but fractured vertebrae are not typical even if unbelted in frontal impacts. Head and chest injuries are more likely.
This problem with Toyota sweeping runaway acceleration under the rug goes way back. There are dozens of complaints to the NHTSA on the Prius alone dating to when it first came out. No recalls were ever issued, yet the complaints keep coming in. Finally after 5 fatal accidents all attributed to runaway acceleration, Toyota issues a recall. Though they are clueless as to what really happens???
Sudden acceleration has been alleged in just about all makes and models over the last 25 years or so. Just because someone claims it happened to them doesn't make it so. (That's why UFOs, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster haven't been proven to exist.) Every crash needs to be investigated in detail for the underlying cause.
Not that it should be - brakes should hold up to multiple stops.
Shame on the LA Times. Slanted reporting at its worst! :mad:
I thought the floormats in the Lexus weren't even lexus floormats at all but junk aftermarket ones.
Either way, a rubber mat for the wrong model is a clear error on the dealer's part. LA Times points the finger straight at Toyota.
The 2009 Lexus ES 350 shot through suburban San Diego like a runaway missile, weaving at 120 miles an hour through rush hour freeway traffic as flames flashed from under the car.
Sounds like an excerpt from Nancy Grace or one of those other tabloid "news" shows.
Remember how Audi was skewered by 60 Minutes?
Sensationalized headlines help them do that.
They won't say:
Fool at Dealer Tried to Put Square Peg in Round Hole
Instead they will say:
Fiery Explosion due to Stuck Toyota Throttle - Let's Sue!
Gosh, and here I thought I was exaggerating. Nope.
they also reported about the 'smart throttle' some vehicles have.
In a recent interview, Mack said he was certain he was wearing his seat belt because he always buckled the restraint before starting the vehicle, as required by his employer.
Is THAT the evidence on teh seat belt? That he's "sure" he had it on?
What he's saying is he doesn't recall that individual drive because of the trauma suffered. Therefore he can't remember fastening the seat belt. Apparently the rescuerers didn't note that his belt was fastened or not. A severe trauma and lots of drugs spoils the memory. A friend was hospitalized for 4 days after surgery and then suffered septsis and was nearly dead for 5 and more days and in intensive care for 20 more. He remembered nothing.
I can swear that I would have put on my seatbelt if I were in a similar position. I do that everytime I start the car to leave the driveway. I've been using seatbelts since before they were required in cars in the 60s. I put my own in. I fasten a belt every trip. 100% certainty.
Blaming the victim won't work.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.break.com/index/understanding-the-turbo-encabulator.html
I'm assuming that since the judge has the case still going that there is more evidence than that article states. If Toyota has destryed evidence hang 'em.
Like you there would be no question in my case. If the car is on the seat belt is buckled. It once saved me from at least serious injury and may have saved my life.
As I said before, a seat belt isn't designed to offer much protection in a rear-end crash. In that case, the integrity of the seat back and head restraint is far more important.
Yes, that video put everything in perspective !!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Good. I was worried for a minute.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I know right where that accident happened. It's just a few miles down the road. If I were driving to see lemko I'd pass it early in the trip. I'd comment on teh safety of the intersection but when you get hit standing still at a stop sign taht's not much of an issue.
Ashcraft and Gehrel, right? I remember those commercials from back when I was in high school and college; I'd always catch them in the middle of the day when I was on summer break. Usually sandwiched in between the commercial with Sally Struthers pushing some correspondence school, and the commercial for a truck driving academy that showed some guy who looked a little like Patrick Swayze getting slapped around. "Start working for yourself, and stop getting...slapped around!"
I guess they figure that if you're home in the middle of the day, you either need to get a job or sue someone. :P
But maybe the firm you mentioned used the same catch phrase!
Here in central VA, Robert Vaughn, the star of The Man from UNCLE in the 60s, pitches for Marks and Harrison.
Get in a big crash like that, don't call an ambulance, call Saiontz and Kirk!
You may lose a limb or two, but you'll be RICH!
The NHSTA report found that one of the two clips on the Saylor vehicles had pulled out of the carpeting and was lying under the floor mat. The other clip was still attached to the carpeting but not hooked into the floor mat.
In addition, the vehicle’s brake surfaces showed signs that they had been worn down through heavy braking against the full force of the 272 horsepower Lexus engine.
“Rotors were discolored and heated, had very rough surfaces, had substantial deposits of brake pad material, and showed signs of bright orange oxidation on the cooling fins consistent with endured braking,” the report said.
NHTSA investigators also noted that instructions for operating the car’s keyless ignition, which requires that the power button be pressed for three full seconds to turn off the engine at speed, were “not indicated on the dashboard.”
The San Diego County Sheriff’s Department is leading the investigation of the crash and has not yet released a final report. The NHTSA report indicated that the Sheriff’s Department had recovered an electronic data recorder, or black box, from the wreck, but that “no attempts to retrieve data from the EDR have yet been made.”
Lt. Julie Sutton of the Sheriff’s Department said today that the department has no comment on the NHTSA report, adding that it is not releasing any more information about the San Diego crash at this time.
My question. Why would you need all weather floor mats in San Diego? Last time it rained was February. You have to drive out in the country to find mud when it does rain.
My guess is that because the vehicle was a dealer service loaner, the all weather mats were installed to protect the carpet and the carpeted floor mats from wear or stains.
Eventually, all the service loaner cars are sold as demos and I'm sure the dealer wants the cars in as good of condition as they can make them.
The car's a loaner, and it hardly rains in southern Cali, so why not just shampoo the carpets and original mats when the car gets sold eventually?
Get ready for big black, orange, red and white stickers plastered by the ignition button telling you how to shut off the engine while moving.
I can't imagine those were even close to fitting. The RX has the shifter up on the dash, isn't the floor continuous from driver's side to passenger side?
How on earth did someone conclude they would fit? Seriously, what were they thinking? Here's a pic:
Looks much wider than a Camry/ES. Both of those have that wide center console.
:sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So you have to change vehicle designs to account for it I guess. As I said, the dumbing down of America.....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
When asked if it is possible to shift a speeding Lexus with a wide-open accelerator into neutral, Toyota spokesman Lyons said: “Absolutely.” Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety in Washington, said shifting the car into neutral at that speed would be “difficult at best.”
Ditlow said the configuration of the gear shift panel, as outlined in a 2008 highway administration report, showed that the neutral position in the gear shift pattern was not immediately obvious, which led to unsuccessful attempts to disengage the engine.
A driver who is speeding down a crowded highway would have both hands on the wheel and would have to take his eyes off the road in order to see where neutral was, Ditlow said. He surmised that Saylor was trying not to hit anyone else on the crowded highway.
“It was a courageous example of someone who sacrificed his life to save others,” Ditlow said.
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/oct/26/bn26saylor13229/
i just read the reply above, which seems to agree with my initial impression.
Along with no obvious clue to shutting off the ignition... this adds a whole new meaning to "Unsafe at Any Speed."
Can't find neutral easily. Can't shut off the ignition. Brakes can't stop the car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Makes you wonder what ToyLex engineers do besides eat donuts. :sick:
My Sequoia has good accelerator clearance and with the shift on the steering column it is very easy to shift from Drive to Neutral. That was one of my complaints to the BMW salesman when I test drove the X5 diesel. The wimpy shift mechanism felt more like a video game controller. I'm not sure I am ready to let a cheap Chinese control unit do all the work for me. We have not heard the last word on this business. I would imagine the price tag has gone up on those five fatal accidents that Toyota successfully shuffled off until this last one.