I haven't totally given in, I missed a call back from a Discover Card Dispute Supervisor that took over 5 hours to return my call and is out of the office till Friday. I am following up in writing thru Discover Card on line account center which will give me hard copy on responses. I have heard to many different things with the 8 plus different reps. Iv'e spoken with, I do not trust anything verbally stated anymore. I will do a search for the company CEO and follow up with e-mails/letters to him to help resolve this baloney............hopefully ! and I'll make a toast to a Safe and Happy New Year to All in Edmunds Town Hall Land....and maybe some justice!
Here is the response I received from reorganization@warrantygold.com when I questioned them about having to physically appear in Texas on 1/8/04:
The deadline for submissions of objections was December 8, 2003. The January 8, 2004 meeting is public so your attendance is permitted but not required. Not attending this meeting will not prevent your proofs of claims from being reviewed by the court.
Maybe they would PREFER people filing complaints do not show up? This was in the Email I received:
"IF AN OBJECTING PARTY DOES NOT ATTEND THE JANUARY 8 HEARING, ITS OBJECTION MAY NOT BE CONSIDERED BY THE COURT."
The key words are "may not" - but why would the WG attorneys encourage people to show up to object when it'll be easier to discount us when we don't have a voice to be heard? As if they REALLY expect objectors who live in other states to spend MORE money for travelling and lodging to attend? Paying for Repairs WG SHOULD be paying for are not enough out of pocket expenses??
Unlike most companies who make things and file for bankruptcy, service companies have nothing with which to recover [no assets] only a "good name" or the personal strength of the owners.
WG in theory sent all the ALLOCATED reserves to NWIC.
I paid for my contract with 10 payments from my checking account - so I'm certain I can't retrieve any of that money, but many of you are having to FIGHT with you cc companies for that money. That's insane! I can't believe some of the stories I'm hearing about the unwillingness to credit your cards back.
OK, I just checked with GM card and WG did indeed counter my dispute. However, GM card rejected their arguments and my dispute still stands.
So there you go, GM card - Mastercard - seems to be a pretty good bunch to deal with at this point. They said they've seen a lot of WG stuff in the dispute department.
Perhaps if WG had paid out a bunch in claims already (I understand that they should still be on the hook for honoring the contract) they would have looked at it differently. But I never even filed a claim.
WG basically defaulted and they can yell all they want that it's National Warranty's responsibility, but the truth is that is their problem and not ours. They contracted with them - not me as far as I can tell.
So now they are in the tank. I wonder if they still are paying (with what) a staff to dispute the cc disputes?
It's nice to read something Positive and someone is helping you. I wonder why your Company understands while others believe the mumbo-jumbo WG and/or MC/Visa doles out ("Contracts are valid" with no proof necessary!) but I am very happy for you.
I've been following this thread for a while, if only to validate my reasoning for NOT purchasing an extended warranty.
As a consumer who uses MC and Visa, what disturbs me are the number of consumers here who are downright angry that their CC issuers will not make a temporary credit permanent and/or refuse to make them 'whole' again.
By most standards, CC companies allow you to dispute a charge within a maximum period of 180 days, most are probably only 60 days, from date of charge. For those of you within those limits, then I believe the maximum you could receive would be just those payments made during that period. Anyone trying to go beyond that timeframe should be turned down.
I'm sorry that you got taken by WG. I hate that a company would defraud its customers like that. But why should the CC company be forced to take the hit? You want them 'pay', and then the rest of us 'pay' in the form of higher fees and rates.
It's very unfortunate that this happened; it always is when a company declares bankruptcy. The scenario is not unique, though, and like any other creditor you have to wait in line and hope that something is left when its your turn.
You are entitled to your opinion just as much as any of us who have gotten ripped off by WG. That's a part of what message boards/discussions are about - stating opinions.
To clarify my dispute, I am not expecting my CC company to "take a hit" and lose money but to Fight charges WG has made using the various methods I described in my dispute. I also think my CC company may feel THEY would possibly "take a hit" which is why their helpfulness in the beginning suddenly turned into repetitive stock answers WG reps previously doled out to me and various other problems. If My CC took the time to properly handle my dispute (they did NOT) and also explained what I would possibly be entitled to legally, I'd understand, but they do not do this so I am left fighting with them to fight WG. But I am not expecting my CC company to get ripped off by WG just because I was. I just want someone to give me legitimate legal reasons, not the garbage I have been dealing with which is as frustrating to deal with as WG themselves. I was furious with my CC when a Rep told me my contract with WG is VALID and I have no dispute - with absolutley no proof provided - just the fact that WG remains in business. Apparently they missed the MAJOR news articles and TV exposes on WG NOT honoring these contracts nor did they seem to read the documentation I sent clearly stating this or for that matter do ANY investigating or a simple internet news search. Expecting them to take a hit? No. Expecting them to FIGHT charges, yes.
I apologize for the long post, but I thought I might be able to contribute some facts to the discussion here, even if my ultimate message is that we are all screwed.
Some background: I’m an attorney who no longer practices. I now do “private equity” deals. This means that my partners and I look for private (i.e., not publicly traded) companies and try to buy them. We sometimes look at companies in bankruptcy. In fact, we just purchased a manufacturing company in Georgia that had filed for Chapter 11 protection. I am thus fairly well acquainted with the fun and games of Chapter 11.
Some more background: I purchased a 99 Honda Odyssey in 1999, along with a WG diamond plan extended warranty. I had no idea about the WG/NWIC bankruptcy until this evening, when, while tooling around on Edmund’s, I saw this forum and dove in. Needless to say, I’ve had better evenings.
It is possible (likely) that some of the points that I’m going to make have already been made. I did not have the stomach to read all gazillion posts. I am also not trying to write the definitive bankruptcy law primer. I am merely trying to provide this group with some free counsel. It’s worth what you paid for it. :-)
When a company files for protection under Chapter 11, it enters into a whole new world. There are essentially two paths for a bankruptcy: liquidation (Chapter 7) and reorganization (Chapter 11). Liquidation is simply a fire sale of all of the assets of the organization. Reorganization is an attempt to generate a recovery above and beyond the liquidation value – on the theory that the company has various intangibles (customer base, name recognition, existing infrastructure, employees, etc.) that make it more valuable as a “going concern” than as a collection of old computers, desks, and coffee makers.
Each company has a multitude of creditors. These include not only banks or “lenders”, but also trade or service suppliers, the government, the company’s employees, and, unfortunately for us, customers who have pre-paid for goods or services. At the end of the day, we are creditors of WG, just like the bank that lent them money, the landlord that provided them with office space, the employees that provided their services, and the government who is owed taxes.
The similarities, however, end there. Bankruptcy law divides the creditors into different classes, and establishes a ranking for them to make claims. The basic premise is that a creditor of a superior class gets paid 100% before any creditor of a lower class gets a penny. (In reality, the lower guys may end up getting something, but this is beyond this discussion.)
The lowest rank of creditor is the unsecured creditor. That’s us. We do not have a security interest in any asset of WG (like the bank that has a mortgage on your house). We are not the IRS, we are not employees. All of these groups will get paid 100% before we see a dime. We are not completely powerless, however. The unsecured creditors form what is known as a creditor’s committee, on which the 20 biggest unsecured creditors sit. This committee will look out for our interests, at least theoretically, but with the limitation that that they ultimately may have little power. (In my experience, the unsecured creditor class in a case like this will get between 0 and 10 cents on the dollar.)
The only obligation and concern of the court is to get as much money as possible for the creditors. It is trying to build the “pot” out of which all of the creditors will claim. It’s not about “fairness” or helping the little guy. It is about increasing the pot, on the theory that the only way any little guy is going to get anything at all, is if the pot is sufficiently large.
There has been a lot of discussion here about WG’s “rejecting” our contracts, and how to fight this. Please do not waste your time traveling to a hearing, or writing letters to the court. It won’t do you any good. One of the powers that a company has in bankruptcy is the ability to accept or reject its contracts. Basically, the company will accept the ones that are advantageous (for example, an office lease that is well below market value), and reject the ones that aren’t (like ours, in the present case.) The fact that you really, really, really need WG to honor your contract doesn’t matter. The fact that you think that WG is the slimiest entity on the planet doesn’t matter. You may, and it may be. All that matters is bringing in the most money for the estate.
Just because your contract is rejected, DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE “LOST”, at least technically speaking. All it means is that your contract is null and void as a legal contract going forward. You still have a claim for damages for breach of contract. Your damages will be equal to the cost you had to pay for repairs that otherwise would have been paid under your contract, or the cost you had to pay to buy a replacement insurance policy.
At the end of the day, however, you likely have lost. The damages that we are talking about are still unsecured. They are the bottom of the barrel.
Of course, I salute any of you who have successfully pursued the matter through your credit card company. This is an avenue worth exploring, but don’t be surprised if, at the end of the day, your credit card company doesn’t come through. After all, they are representing you, and have no greater rights than you, as an unsecured creditor, have.
Regarding the issue of one state (Texas) trying to get the court not to authorize the rejection of TX based contracts, this is actually a very complicated issue. There are several legal arguments that could be made on each side of this debate, and I will be interested in how the court handles it. But these issues are for another day.
My advice to everyone here is the following: If you have a claim (i.e., if you are actually out of pocket on repairs that WG should have paid, or if you bought new coverage), and have nothing better to do, go ahead file a claim for damages as an unsecured creditor. You might get lucky and recover something. If you don’t (i.e., you’re just waiting for the repair), then just write it off to a bad deal. In either case, pour yourself a drink and hope for better luck next time. And remember, in the grand scheme of bankruptcy rip-offs, this is small time. Think about having your retirement savings go up in a poof of Enron smoke, and take some small consolation. Things could be a whole lot worse.
I hope I have been able to clarify the process somewhat, even if the answer is still harsh. Good luck to all of you.
But I'd do MUCH more research than I did last time when I chose WG. Foolishly I only researched the sites SELLING the policies, not consumer complaints and such where I would have found the important information. And definitley READ the fine print. A Zero deductible doesn't appear to be what I'd be paying even IF WG paid for My Repairs, as these Warranties seem to nickel and dime every NON-Part that is used during the covered part's repair, which could add up to a lot. Since WG did not pay for my Repairs, I don't know how they would have paid the claim, but considering the way they handled this mess, I wouldn't expect much. I had an extended warranty about 10 years ago, had one claim, paid ONLY my deductible, cancelled my policy months later when I sold my car and was shocked when I got more than half my money back in a refund which I had not expected since I filed a claim. Warranty Companies have certainly changed since then - and I don't remember the Issuing Company of That warranty but it was NOT WG. No more extended warranties for me. Good luck in your search or with CNA.
That was a very clear explanation and a reality check on what to expect on this whole WG fiasco. I only received about 75% of my money back from a chargeback and I hope it stays. The remaining 25% I hope to get (and I'm not holding by breath) through the bankruptcy claim I filed.
I agree this is small potato's compared to Enron, but I think this bankruptcy is a very cowardly way for a company with plenty of assets to bypass their legal obligations in order to remain in business. But that's an ethical perspective and we all know WG (like Enron) can care less about ethics regardless of how they sugar-coat their explanation about it on their warrantynews site.
I've learned an expensive lesson and the only satisfaction I have is knowing WG will NEVER see a dime of my money again. I'll stick with the manufacturers extended warranty in the future if necessary and save money in a savings account for unexpected repairs. Unfortunately, it took this loss to make me learn how to save & manage money correctly.
I appreciate your extensive post, but unfortunately not everyone can afford to thank their luck we only got ripped off for a small amount of money. With all due respect, Some of us do not even HAVE a huge retirement savings TO lose. Extended warranties target people like me who don't want huge unexpected Repair Bills or simply cannot afford to pay for them; losing our money AND having to pay for repairs does not leave me feeling lucky because some of us aren't just losing $1000 - $1500+ when you add in the Repairs we are now paying for as well. Small potatoes maybe to some, but not to everyone.
We have been victimized by WG and their deceptive Claims and by continuing to charge our CCs for MONTHS AFTER they were no longer honoring our contracts, and are getting away with this. THAT is my Major problem. I still have TWO repairs I need to pay for on my vehicle so I just ain't feeling lucky, but getting some of my stolen money back would help.
Thanks for your post below lobito17. I appreciate it as it confirms/clarifies my understanding of this Warranty Gold deal.
#1551 of 1557 Long post, but trying to help by lobito17
After about three months my credit card company "reversed" my temporary credit based on a legal bankruptcy wording "form information letter" from Warranty Gold. I intend to file a claim with the bankruptcy court and send my credit card company some of the new Warranty Gold web site information to see if I can put the charge back in dispute.
Thanks for the info, it still hurts to know that "we" the "little guys" still get screwed in the end.
All I can say to those who payed with a credit card is that WE do have some power, it's called dropping your present CC company and going elswhere with your business. Just make your final point VERY clear to the C.C. customer rep why you are cancelling. Also send a email to the CEO of your CC company (this info available by doing a search)and let them now how not to handle a customer's complaint.
Polito17's assessment was good info for this thread. And although you, as an unsecured creditor, may be at the end of the line waiting for a claim, I think you will see that the "big guys" will not do much better in this action.
Under the reorganization WG is retaining enough assets to continue operating. Given the nature of their business I am very skeptical that there are enough tangible *separate* assets (those not retained by WG) to satisfy much in the way of claims for the "secured" creditors either. I expect pretty much everybody loses.
To all of you that bought a WG or Smart Choice VSC plan and lost your money or didn't get a claim paid, I feel sorry for your loss and wish you the best in recovering your lost dollars.
However, I have watched many posting the past year come up on this board that went to long ends "bashing" the costs of the manufacturer backed VSC plans (GM, Ford, Daimler, etc), saying that they are ripping off the customer by charging so much. Then I see posts saying to buy this other plan like WG or SC because they can save you about 50% in price. In the words of a famous person, if it looks to good to be true, it usually is. Well, this area fits the bill to a "T".
I actually work for one of the Big 3 automotive companies and manager their VSC sales for 8 states in the south. Here is a little insight on why PRICE is only ONE factor to look at.
First, the VSC market consists of those companies who wish to look out and protect the consumer and those that wish to look out more for themselves, rather than the customer.
To prove this, here is some information to ponder. On average, for every VSC plan we sell, we pay out about 85% in claim dollars. So, if you paid $1,500 for a VSC, we would pay out $1,275 of that $1,500, over the lifespan of that plan.
Now, if you would have looked at a manufacturer backed plan, say a 5 year, 75,000 plan that cost $1,500 and then a WG or SC that costs $800, the math alone would cause some concern. WHY would you be concerned here?
The reason why we pay out about 85% in claims, is because we COVER more parts on a vehicle than most other providers. So, a WG or SC at $800 means what???? Do you think that they know more about how to fix a car or truck better than the people who make them???? Not!!! They can't, we have more skilled people, knowledge and information to know what to charge based upon our EXPERIENCE in the market.
So, what that boils down to, is that they are BETTING on the fact that they will make up more VOLUME and hope that they don't receive a large portion of big claims that saps their premiums collected and invested into conservative investments (earning 3-5% interest).I don't blame a person for wanting to make money, by BETTING on something to go right, but I don't want them betting my money on it, DO YOU???
Going back to my math. If our plan is $1,500 and we pay out $1,275, then their charge for that same plan is $800??? Their price doesn't even come close to what we PAY OUT in claim coverage. Are you worried yet?
So, what that tells me is that they either don't cover to many parts or of the parts they do cover, they probably don't cover the WHOLE repair. This is usually the case when it comes down to medium (AC/Heating systems) to large repairs (Engine/Transmission replace/overhauls). Those of you that bought a low cost VSC plan from these fly by night providers and had a large repair, probably found this out very quickly and it costs you additional $$$$.
Now, I'm not saying that our plans are the only ones you should buy. BUT, if you are going to put money out on the table to cover a repair on a vehicle that has over 15,000 mechanical parts on it, wouldn't you want the one that covers almost every single mechanical part, not just the little ones????
These are thoughts to ponder when you decide to buy your next GM,Ford or Daimler vehicle. My last TIP for you buyers out there, if you see a MOM and POP vsc provider out there, ask the company if they are formed under a RISK RETENTION GROUP. If they ARE, DO NOT, and I mean DO NOT buy it!!!!! If you do, then you may face the same problems that all those Warranty Gold and Smart Choice buyers are facing.
Where were these words of wisdom when I needed them back in Sept. 02 ??? Yea, I bought one of those WG contracts and had my first use of it a month later. The repair was paid in full ($1100) I pd. $1313 for the plan so I got some of my lost money back. Unfortunately the second policy was never used so that is a $1189 loss. I had checked w/GM on their plan but it was well over 2k and not a 100k plan as wanted. I WILL stick with the GM, FORD or Daimler plan should I ever consider buying another VSC. But for now I'm gonna gamble that the Big Three know how to build them right and hope for the best, even though my 2000 Silverado is a knocker! Funny how the Big Three will gamble that they don't know how to build them right and sell you a VSC. Ironic !
You CC people should read some of the postings at warrantynews.com, the court has closed that CC refunds. I tell you this you we have all lost and these WG people are laughing all the way to the bank. Them guys in Nebraska at National Warranty Insurance Company gave their family millions of dollars before running back to the Bahamans. You know the courts there will do nothing put split the money up with the judge. Believe me as a NAUI Divemaster and over 30 years of diving and taking people all over the carbarrian I know how there courts work. It's all in the family!
As for my receiving a charge reversal and this somehow costs you more - well I don't think so. GM card explained to me that they go back and basically credit themselves from WG's "bank". So GM card is not out anything for doing this as far as I know. I'm sure there are strict rules about this between banks, but WG clearly defaulted here. Maybe some credit card companies have different rules or agreements or simply do not want to spend the effort reviewing the back and forth dispute.
From skimming the recent posts, I get the idea that if I had waited a bit longer to file a dispute, that I would have got nothing due to the bankruptcy. I was worried about that when I did file hoping that their bank account would stay open long enough for my dispute to go through.
Also - GM card told me that they do have a policy that disputes have to be made within a certain amount of time, but the policy is not cast in stone because some purchases like these warranties have a very long contract period. Bottom line, they looked at these cases individually and acted in a manner that makes sense. Mine was a 6 year contract with lots of miles yet to go as well.
Anyway - I have to mostly disagree with your understanding and assessment of the situation.
IN THE UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS AUSTIN DIVISION
In re:
WARRANTY GOLD, LTD., Case No. 03-15721-FRM Debtor
NOTICE TO CREDITORS AND OTHER PARTIES IN INTEREST REGARDING CONTINUATION OF HEARING
TO ALL CREDITORS AND OTHER PARTIES IN INTEREST IN THE ABOVE CHAPTER 11 PROCEEDING:
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN by the undersigned counsel for MELISSA NEWMAN, individually and on behalf of a Class consisting of all similarly situated persons ("Newman"), a creditor in the above entitled and numbered Chapter 11 proceedings, that the Bankruptcy Court has this date granted Newman's Motion for Continuance with respect to the hearing scheduled in this case for Thursday, January 8, 2004, on the Bankruptcy Court's previous Order Granting Amended Motion to Reject all Pre-June 7, 2003 Customer Extended Warranty Contracts and to Modify and Extend Response Deadline. The hearing on this matter will not take place as originally scheduled on January 8, 2004; instead, the hearing on this matter will be conducted before the United States Bankruptcy Court on Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 9:30 o'clock a.m. The hearing on the Motion will take place in the United States Bankruptcy Court, Austin Courtroom #1, which is located on the third floor of the Homer Thornberry Judicial Building at 903 San Jacinto Street, Austin, Texas 78701.
/s/ Weldon Ponder______________________ B. WELDON PONDER, JR., Attorney at Law State Bar of Texas No. 16110400 3500 Jefferson Street, Suite 200 Austin, Texas 78731-6224 Phone (512) 472-0764 / Fax (512) 472-0765
I got another email from them with the following information. Sounds like more of their crap.
"The deadline for objecting to the Court's November 12, 2003 Order Rejecting Pre-June 7 Contracts was December 8, 2003.
The February 5, 2004 hearing at 9:30 a.m. is open to the public. At that hearing, those persons that objected to the entry of the November 12, 2003 Order will have an opportunity to voice their objection to the Court. If an objecting party does not attend, that party's objection may not be considered by the Court.
However, failure to attend this hearing does not affect any customer's right to a distribution on claims filed in the bankruptcy. A customer can assert his/her claim by filing a proof of claim in the bankruptcy. Instructions on filing such a claim can be found at http://www.warrantynews.com. The deadline for filing claims is March 17, 2004.
We at Warranty Gold apologize for any confusion that has been caused by these notices. However, according to the statutes applicable to bankruptcy cases and the orders of the bankruptcy court, we are required to send you these notices to keep you informed of your rights as to Warranty Gold.
We who purchased from Warranty Gold before June 2003 are truely Screwed and The Government WILL protect them (Warranty Gold Executives) and not us. The Lawyers that will try to win money back for us will end pocketing most of it and again we the People of this Great Country will still LOSE OUT!!!!! I have been sent a copy of a letter from the attorney for Warranty Gold Stating that I am in violation of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for requesting Discover Card credit back my money for the purchase price $1300.00 even though I do not have a policy any longer and can NEVER put a claim for repairs against it because it has been cancelled due to filing of Bankruptcy. So now Discover is charging me back for all of the money they credited to me and there is nothing I can do, now I'm out $1300.00 to a company that has given me nothing in return except a sore BUTT, if you know what I mean!! I hope that no one out there makes the mistake that all of us have done by doing business with Warranty Gold. I also hope that by some miracle that ALL Executives of Warranty Gold lose every thing thy own and end broke and living in poverty, May they also rot in H-LL, Just my personal right as an AMERICAN to express my feelings.
For those of us that got screwed by WG. Don't feel helpless. There is some action we can take. I filed a complaint with the Massachusetts Attorney General. It is totally useless unless they get a lot of complaints from others. So I encourage anyone in Mass. to file a complaint with the AG office. A better action step is to write to the Consumer Reporter (most have emails) of your major newspaper describing the unethical, unconscionable behavior of Warranty Gold. Hopefully, the reporter will write a negative article on them, so others will not do business with WG. Also, grill WG on the epinions review website.
You have a 0.8% chance of it happening to some company you deal with on average. Multiplied by the number of business you deal with in a prepay fashion. http://www.bizstats.com/businesses.htm
Obviously in the extended service business it is 10 times higher based on the numbers of companies filing.
I just posted a testomonial on W.G. site after getting a new quote for haha's "Most disreputable company I have ever bought a vehicle service contract from. W.G. no longer honors the two contracts I purchased in December 2002 for 2 vehicles. "RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN" Lets see if they post it or not. All their testomonials are pre February 2003.
I also got to one of their customer reps. on the other end who is sending out these e-mail updates of court date, here's some more laughter.... "You used ethics in the same sentence with vulagar language. The best use of your time is to file the required paperwork by the date indicated. All the information and forms are found at www.warrantynews.com" I would post what I sent but it's not allowed on this board. But I'm sure you can all read between the lines based on their response to me.
Response also recieved from Discover Card using the Chapter 11 issue for their reason to do nothing more for me, their "former" customer.
If anything I'm making the best out a bad situation and having a good time of it at least.... cheers to all !
Discover has two choices. Since WG is in bankruptcy, they can't just charge back the account (once WG filed for Chapter 11, they got temporary protection from creditors, including policyholders). Therefore, they have to either decide to tell you they're not going to help, or eat the $1300 themselves. Since DC makes, after expenses, _at most_ 1% of your transaction volume in profit (unless you carry a large balance), you'd have to charge ~$130k to make up for the loss DC has taken. You have to ask yourself: do you charge enough to make it worth their while to keep you happy? In your business, if you have a customer where the cost of keeping him satisfied exceeds the expected value of his business, don't you just let him go?
Your scenerio is right in the end but Discover did have an avenue to persue prior to the chapter 11 filing of W.G.and chose not to. In the 20 years that we have had 2 different accounts with Discover, they more than had 130k of my business. Loyalty means nothing to Discover card, we are just numbers. Go back to Garnes post 1547, there are avenues if your c.c. company chooses to take them.
It's now their loss, I have moved on to another c.c. company. The power of choice prevails.
I have followed your posts and know the details so I understand your frustration. Many of us are experiencing similar situations but people don't have the time to go back and read dozens and dozens of posts so most likely are commenting on the more recent posts, so I feel like I have to again explain/defend WHY I am so MAD.
For me, I am NOT trying to rip my CC off, expecting them to take a "hit" or whatever; I had been charged for months following WG's No longer paying for repairs - and WG DID NOT notify me so I could not even cancel my contract - they kept CHARGING me - even AFTER they refused to pay for a covered repair! I may have lost half of my money before June when they were technically still paying for repairs, but WG stole the rest after June 7th knowing they were not honoring contracts. I hope readers understand THIS is why I am frustrated with WG and my CC. I consider this stealing. If My CC co had properly handled the case in a timely manner, this could have been resolved BEFORE the bankruptcy - even though my CC rep said the bankrupcty had no bearing on the dispute I made prior to it. Yeah, first I believe the load of garbage WG sells me, then I am supposed to take legal advice on bankruptcy Laws from a CC rep. Yet, she assured me.
I blame My CC for dropping the ball, giving WG time to file their bankruptcy and now leaving ME stuck with a huge balance, a worthless contract, and Repairs I have to pay for - all because WG used the LAW to rip me off. And to some people, if they lost under $2000, it's no big deal, just a lesson learned. Others like me do not like being ripped off. So I come here to vent and hopefully read how someone successfully defeated WG.
I purchased a warranty on May 8, 03 for almost $1600.00. I received the "Notice" from WG by email on Oct,2. On Oct 4 I contacted WG and requested a cancellation form by email. Completed form that day had it notarized and sent it to WG overnight return receipt requested. Sent copies and dispute to Visa overnight the same day. Received a credit to my account three weeks later prior to WG bankruptcy. Have followed up with several calls to CC and my credit has been finalized. Received all my money back. Sorry for all the folks who have been ripped off. The key to success seemed to be the cancellation notice, a well worded business like dispute letter and prompt action.
who have gotten positive results from their C.C. companies GM Master Card & now VISA. There may be more who just don't post here.
Hunter, Would you mind e-mailing me the wording of your letter taking out all the private info of course. Discover Card has finally kicked my complaint up a higher notch after I embarrassed the hell out of them. It seems the best way to communicate with them is by registering for online activity and then sending secure e-mail messages.
As RayT said, others may possibly be victorious but don't post here, so I hope many others have done better too. I don't know why WG isn't disputing all chargebacks but there must be a reason and I am glad some people are not getting ripped off. I disputed WG almost 2 months before they even notified me by mail as I had to find out the hard way when my car was in for a repair they would not pay for. And then when I disputed it, My CC rep advised me to NOT cancel the contract (LOL again I trust my CC to advise me?!) as that could change the terms of my dispute due to the way WG words their contracts, which did make sense to me as I was proving WG had breeched it, it wasn't me wanting to cancel it. It was confusing but my CC led me to believe it would be easy at that time.
RayT - I just read in Consumer Reports that many CC companies have a dept to handle disputes beyond being turned down by the regular dispute dept - something to that effect - it was called "Escalating" - check out a current CR magazine for the exact article/name, as I don't have it with me. They have an article about disputes/billing errors/etc.
It's not the Visa or Mastercard logo - its the bank behind it.
B of A has 2 separate departments. The charges falling within the first 90 or so days of a charge, and the ones beyond this time frame. The 90 day dispute staff is generally fast, efficient, and knowledgeable. The second dispute staff is not nearly as friendly. This is where you must stick with services not rendered, and I think they are experienced in this area more in the realm of travel arrangements paid for in advance and not provided/rendered down the road.
Hunter may have also been able to retain his refund under the WG's satisfaction guaranteed initial cancellation provision.
For the money they spend on attorney fees, they could probably refund us all!
I just got a Conditional Credit on my Credit Card, Citibank. This was for the down payment, $399 and my first payment, $150. Ihave already contacted them and asked for a refund check. As I see it, if I get the refund check and then close the account, I don't see that they could reinstate the charge.
paid. The motion excluding TX residents is still pending just like all the others. I just sent an email to the reorg address asking if the latest motion to reject the pre-june contracts still excluded Tx residents.
I never tried to cancel. I just sent a copy of the contract, correspondence from WG saying I was no longer covered, old cc statement showing the WG charge, and a good letter explaining the situation. As far as I was concerned, (and seem to have been right) cancelling wasn't an issue since they defaulted and made this contract void themselves. Cancelling would (in my mind) create a possible perception that I was obligated to still "play by WG's rules" when they had already overturned the checkerboard. Anyway, it seems it doesn't matter either way.
I do think the timeliness had a lot to do with it as well. It started looking hopeless and I just wanted to get something going before WG's accounts were frozen or whatever.
I do have to say that it does seem some cc companies will go the distance and others don't want to be hassled or whatever. It's really weird. Once GM card contacted me about illicit charges and cleaned the whole thing up before the next statement. It's cool they could sniff out the fraud so fast - and I've traveled the globe and that never tripped anything. They probably saw multiple charges from all over simultaneously. In short, GM card has impressed me a lot.
Actually, you're not off the hook. If the charge is reversed, you're still liable, even though the acc't has been closed, and not paying would hit your credit.
First off, jratcliffe, I was concerned about that. But I think if they try to bill me after the account is closed, I would not be subject to the rate terms of the card and they could only bill me for the actual amount, no interest.
Anyway, today I got a form letter from these morons. They say "it was not clear from your inquiry the type of adjustment which you request". And they want me to send copies of my statements and a bunch of other paperwork.
The thing is, in my initial request to get the chargeback I sent all this stuff. Copies of my statements with the charges marked as to what they were for. A copy of my contract. A copy of my cancellation and a letter from WG indicating that the contract was basically null & void and they would not be paying refunds until the NWIG matter was settled. And probably other things too.
After quite some time, 6-8 weeks I think, and not hearing from them, I sent a follow-up letter. It just amazes me how in this day and age companies are getting atrocious in handling customer matters. Customer Service, across the board, had really gone down hill in the last decade.
Garnes - I went the "not cancelling" route per my CC advice and WG's defense was that I NEVER cancelled (DUH)even though my thorough dispute explained everything about this situation how they defaulted - I swear the Dispute dept has NOT seriously read my entire dispute or documentation. My CC company accepts WG's excuse that they are still in business as my contract being VALID - again, depsite documentation I sent FROM WG and other sources explaining the opposite. Either dispute dept does not care, is not reading it, or both.
quigonjohn - Not sure about the interest having to be paid, but with my CC I was told I could not close the account with an open dispute - not sure if that is true since they spout things as gospel when I have since learned isn't always true - and I get different answers from diff reps.
As for the time it takes CC companies to deal with disputes I have read there are tons of disputes and billing errors and I guess the small dept can only handle so much at a time (or bother actually reading them entirely) which causes delays detrimental to my case as it should have been resolved whether in my favor or not BEFORE the Nov bankruptcy. So because of their errors it has dragged on for months now WITH the bankruptcy a factor. And I have had to re-send the SAME information several times now, too so I know how it goes. Conspiracy theories LOL - did they deliberately delay my dispute until after the official announcement of bankrutpcy to make it easy and not be able to do anything? Don't know. Is it Incompetence? Overworked employees? Deliberate? They had no legitimate answer for the Extreme Delay (approx 2 MONTHS) other than "We're sorry..." I wonder if I had never contacted them if my chargeback would have been permanent since they didn't reverse it until my Second inquiry - or were they waiting for the dispute ending date to pass and then reverse it? How would I prove I never received the Response (they never sent) since they use regular mail? Thankfully the reps I have spoke to on the phone have been honest in telling me nothing was ever sent to me - but I know what is said verbally means nothing.
And do they investigate disputes? From what I was told - NO. When I explained WG breeching contracts, etc. has been all over TV, newspaper, and the internet, it doesn't matter. It's more of a "I say/They Say" dispute with each defending WHY. If neither side backs down, or if the CC company thinks they will lose, they will no longer fight, or, I was told it could go to arbitration with Mastercard. So when I send documents from WG "spinning" the problems with NWIC are causing them to NOT pay claims, or stating my contract is being rejected by the courts per WG, it doesn't mean a thing. My contract is VALID cause WG says so.
And garnes, when you say some cc companies will go the distance and others don't want to be bothered - ITA. I'm just one of probably thousands of disputes, I wasn't taken seriously, they didn't contact me AT ALL about WG fighting me, and they then accepted WG's Response as the truth without question, despite having contradicting documentation I sent. I can only speculate on what or why they did what they did, but I am not happy, still awaiting word of the official closing of my dispute that I should have received two weeks ago according to them. I'm trying to get my dispute "escalated" so I'll see where that gets me.
I am going to go to the Kansas Attorney General and Insurance Commissioner of Kansas and file complaints. Also, I am going to try and get WG stopped from doing business in Kansas. Most likely it won't do any good, but maybe I will feel better. I live in the state capital and retired from the state so I know my way around the capital area. Also, we all can do the same in Texas via snail mail. That is file a complaint with the Attorney General and BBB of Austin. These guys should not be allowed to go on with business as usual. Something is wrong with this system. I have to pay my bills or lose my house and car. Lets use every option available to let Texas and our own state we are mad and document so others will know.
GM Mastercard reversed the charges for me in late October. As of now nothing has changed. I'm still holding my breath. What scares me, is all the problems so many others are having with their credit card companies. I'm hoping for the best in my case, and wish everyone else the best also.
jennyk4 is right. I think I prevailed because the Visa card was through my wife's employer and is a federal credit union. My advice is to get the word out through the media and all companies advertising on their sites with links to WG. Enough bad publicity will destroy the low down dirty dogs known as WG.
I disputed a Warranty Gold policy purchased in 11/02 in September. Discover issued a temporary credit, but reversed and charged back in late December after Warranty Gold sent a letter stating that Disover was prohibited from charging WG back due to Chapter 11 Bankrupcty. Looks like I'm out the $1300. Any suggestions?
I tried to get a charge back with AE or even start the dispuite, but they said it was over 6 months old and not on the computer. I know that is BS as that is how I made my living for 37 years and at most they archived the data off to tape or some other media- which can be retrived. The guy hardly could speak english, perhaps they are doing like a lot of companies and using phone support overseas. Also, WG got the court to plug that hole according to warrantynews.com. I should have thought of that sooner. I can be a pain to them by doing the following.
Go to the Kansas Attorney General and Insurance Commissioner of Kansas and file complaints. Also, I am going to try and get WG stopped from doing business in Kansas. Most likely it won't do any good, but maybe I will feel better. I live in the state capital and retired from the state so I know my way around the capital area. Also, we all can do the same in Texas via snail mail. That is file a complaint with the Attorney General and BBB of Austin. These guys should not be allowed to go on with business as usual. Something is wrong with this system. I have to pay my bills or lose my house and car. Lets use every option available to let Texas and our own state we are mad and document so others will know.
Comments
I will do a search for the company CEO and follow up with e-mails/letters to him to help resolve this baloney............hopefully !
and I'll make a toast to a Safe and Happy New Year to All in Edmunds Town Hall Land....and maybe some justice!
Ray T.
The deadline for submissions of objections was December 8, 2003. The January 8, 2004 meeting is public so your attendance is permitted but
not required. Not attending this meeting will not prevent your proofs of claims from being reviewed by the court.
"IF AN OBJECTING PARTY DOES NOT ATTEND THE JANUARY 8 HEARING, ITS OBJECTION MAY NOT BE CONSIDERED BY THE COURT."
The key words are "may not" - but why would the WG attorneys encourage people to show up to object when it'll be easier to discount us when we don't have a voice to be heard? As if they REALLY expect objectors who live in other states to spend MORE money for travelling and lodging to attend? Paying for Repairs WG SHOULD be paying for are not enough out of pocket expenses??
WG in theory sent all the ALLOCATED reserves to NWIC.
So there you go, GM card - Mastercard - seems to be a pretty good bunch to deal with at this point. They said they've seen a lot of WG stuff in the dispute department.
Perhaps if WG had paid out a bunch in claims already (I understand that they should still be on the hook for honoring the contract) they would have looked at it differently. But I never even filed a claim.
WG basically defaulted and they can yell all they want that it's National Warranty's responsibility, but the truth is that is their problem and not ours. They contracted with them - not me as far as I can tell.
So now they are in the tank. I wonder if they still are paying (with what) a staff to dispute the cc disputes?
Three cheers for beating those CROOKS!
As a consumer who uses MC and Visa, what disturbs me are the number of consumers here who are downright angry that their CC issuers will not make a temporary credit permanent and/or refuse to make them 'whole' again.
By most standards, CC companies allow you to dispute a charge within a maximum period of 180 days, most are probably only 60 days, from date of charge. For those of you within those limits, then I believe the maximum you could receive would be just those payments made during that period. Anyone trying to go beyond that timeframe should be turned down.
I'm sorry that you got taken by WG. I hate that a company would defraud its customers like that. But why should the CC company be forced to take the hit? You want them 'pay', and then the rest of us 'pay' in the form of higher fees and rates.
It's very unfortunate that this happened; it always is when a company declares bankruptcy. The scenario is not unique, though, and like any other creditor you have to wait in line and hope that something is left when its your turn.
I'm sure I'll get some flak for this opionion.
To clarify my dispute, I am not expecting my CC company to "take a hit" and lose money but to Fight charges WG has made using the various methods I described in my dispute. I also think my CC company may feel THEY would possibly "take a hit" which is why their helpfulness in the beginning suddenly turned into repetitive stock answers WG reps previously doled out to me and various other problems. If My CC took the time to properly handle my dispute (they did NOT) and also explained what I would possibly be entitled to legally, I'd understand, but they do not do this so I am left fighting with them to fight WG. But I am not expecting my CC company to get ripped off by WG just because I was. I just want someone to give me legitimate legal reasons, not the garbage I have been dealing with which is as frustrating to deal with as WG themselves. I was furious with my CC when a Rep told me my contract with WG is VALID and I have no dispute - with absolutley no proof provided - just the fact that WG remains in business. Apparently they missed the MAJOR news articles and TV exposes on WG NOT honoring these contracts nor did they seem to read the documentation I sent clearly stating this or for that matter do ANY investigating or a simple internet news search. Expecting them to take a hit? No. Expecting them to FIGHT charges, yes.
Some background: I’m an attorney who no longer practices. I now do “private equity” deals. This means that my partners and I look for private (i.e., not publicly traded) companies and try to buy them. We sometimes look at companies in bankruptcy. In fact, we just purchased a manufacturing company in Georgia that had filed for Chapter 11 protection. I am thus fairly well acquainted with the fun and games of Chapter 11.
Some more background: I purchased a 99 Honda Odyssey in 1999, along with a WG diamond plan extended warranty. I had no idea about the WG/NWIC bankruptcy until this evening, when, while tooling around on Edmund’s, I saw this forum and dove in. Needless to say, I’ve had better evenings.
It is possible (likely) that some of the points that I’m going to make have already been made. I did not have the stomach to read all gazillion posts. I am also not trying to write the definitive bankruptcy law primer. I am merely trying to provide this group with some free counsel. It’s worth what you paid for it. :-)
When a company files for protection under Chapter 11, it enters into a whole new world. There are essentially two paths for a bankruptcy: liquidation (Chapter 7) and reorganization (Chapter 11). Liquidation is simply a fire sale of all of the assets of the organization. Reorganization is an attempt to generate a recovery above and beyond the liquidation value – on the theory that the company has various intangibles (customer base, name recognition, existing infrastructure, employees, etc.) that make it more valuable as a “going concern” than as a collection of old computers, desks, and coffee makers.
Each company has a multitude of creditors. These include not only banks or “lenders”, but also trade or service suppliers, the government, the company’s employees, and, unfortunately for us, customers who have pre-paid for goods or services. At the end of the day, we are creditors of WG, just like the bank that lent them money, the landlord that provided them with office space, the employees that provided their services, and the government who is owed taxes.
The similarities, however, end there. Bankruptcy law divides the creditors into different classes, and establishes a ranking for them to make claims. The basic premise is that a creditor of a superior class gets paid 100% before any creditor of a lower class gets a penny. (In reality, the lower guys may end up getting something, but this is beyond this discussion.)
The lowest rank of creditor is the unsecured creditor. That’s us. We do not have a security interest in any asset of WG (like the bank that has a mortgage on your house). We are not the IRS, we are not employees. All of these groups will get paid 100% before we see a dime. We are not completely powerless, however. The unsecured creditors form what is known as a creditor’s committee, on which the 20 biggest unsecured creditors sit. This committee will look out for our interests, at least theoretically, but with the limitation that that they ultimately may have little power. (In my experience, the unsecured creditor class in a case like this will get between 0 and 10 cents on the dollar.)
The only obligation and concern of the court is to get as much money as possible for the creditors. It is trying to build the “pot” out of which all of the creditors will claim. It’s not about “fairness” or helping the little guy. It is about increasing the pot, on the theory that the only way any little guy is going to get anything at all, is if the pot is sufficiently large.
There has been a lot of discussion here about WG’s “rejecting” our contracts, and how to fight this. Please do not waste your time traveling to a hearing, or writing letters to the court. It won’t do you any good. One of the powers that a company has in bankruptcy is the ability to accept or reject its contracts. Basically, the company will accept the ones that are advantageous (for example, an office lease that is well below market value), and reject the ones that aren’t (like ours, in the present case.) The fact that you really, really, really need WG to honor your contract doesn’t matter. The fact that you think that WG is the slimiest entity on the planet doesn’t matter. You may, and it may be. All that matters is bringing in the most money for the estate.
Just because your contract is rejected, DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE “LOST”, at least technically speaking. All it means is that your contract is null and void as a legal contract going forward. You still have a claim for damages for breach of contract. Your damages will be equal to the cost you had to pay for repairs that otherwise would have been paid under your contract, or the cost you had to pay to buy a replacement insurance policy.
At the end of the day, however, you likely have lost. The damages that we are talking about are still unsecured. They are the bottom of the barrel.
Of course, I salute any of you who have successfully pursued the matter through your credit card company. This is an avenue worth exploring, but don’t be surprised if, at the end of the day, your credit card company doesn’t come through. After all, they are representing you, and have no greater rights than you, as an unsecured creditor, have.
Regarding the issue of one state (Texas) trying to get the court not to authorize the rejection of TX based contracts, this is actually a very complicated issue. There are several legal arguments that could be made on each side of this debate, and I will be interested in how the court handles it. But these issues are for another day.
My advice to everyone here is the following: If you have a claim (i.e., if you are actually out of pocket on repairs that WG should have paid, or if you bought new coverage), and have nothing better to do, go ahead file a claim for damages as an unsecured creditor. You might get lucky and recover something. If you don’t (i.e., you’re just waiting for the repair), then just write it off to a bad deal. In either case, pour yourself a drink and hope for better luck next time. And remember, in the grand scheme of bankruptcy rip-offs, this is small time. Think about having your retirement savings go up in a poof of Enron smoke, and take some small consolation. Things could be a whole lot worse.
I hope I have been able to clarify the process somewhat, even if the answer is still harsh. Good luck to all of you.
I am going to get an extended warranty on our new truck though, Im going back to CNA. I had CNA on my dodge and they paid very well.
Does anyone have any info good/bad about CNA?
Thanks
I agree this is small potato's compared to Enron, but I think this bankruptcy is a very cowardly way for a company with plenty of assets to bypass their legal obligations in order to remain in business. But that's an ethical perspective and we all know WG (like Enron) can care less about ethics regardless of how they sugar-coat their explanation about it on their warrantynews site.
I've learned an expensive lesson and the only satisfaction I have is knowing WG will NEVER see a dime of my money again. I'll stick with the manufacturers extended warranty in the future if necessary and save money in a savings account for unexpected repairs. Unfortunately, it took this loss to make me learn how to save & manage money correctly.
We have been victimized by WG and their deceptive Claims and by continuing to charge our CCs for MONTHS AFTER they were no longer honoring our contracts, and are getting away with this. THAT is my Major problem. I still have TWO repairs I need to pay for on my vehicle so I just ain't feeling lucky, but getting some of my stolen money back would help.
#1551 of 1557 Long post, but trying to help by lobito17
After about three months my credit card company "reversed" my temporary credit based on a legal bankruptcy wording "form information letter" from Warranty Gold. I intend to file a claim with the bankruptcy court and send my credit card company some of the new Warranty Gold web site information to see if I can put the charge back in dispute.
I got screwed, I hate it but stuff happens!
All I can say to those who payed with a credit card is that WE do have some power, it's called dropping your present CC company and going elswhere with your business. Just make your final point VERY clear to the C.C. customer rep why you are cancelling. Also send a email to the CEO of your CC company (this info available by doing a search)and let them now how not to handle a customer's complaint.
Ray T.
Under the reorganization WG is retaining enough assets to continue operating. Given the nature of their business I am very skeptical that there are enough tangible *separate* assets (those not retained by WG) to satisfy much in the way of claims for the "secured" creditors either. I expect pretty much everybody loses.
DB
However, I have watched many posting the past year come up on this board that went to long ends "bashing" the costs of the manufacturer backed VSC plans (GM, Ford, Daimler, etc), saying that they are ripping off the customer by charging so much. Then I see posts saying to buy this other plan like WG or SC because they can save you about 50% in price. In the words of a famous person, if it looks to good to be true, it usually is. Well, this area fits the bill to a "T".
I actually work for one of the Big 3 automotive companies and manager their VSC sales for 8 states in the south. Here is a little insight on why PRICE is only ONE factor to look at.
First, the VSC market consists of those companies who wish to look out and protect the consumer and those that wish to look out more for themselves, rather than the customer.
To prove this, here is some information to ponder. On average, for every VSC plan we sell, we pay out about 85% in claim dollars. So, if you paid $1,500 for a VSC, we would pay out $1,275 of that $1,500, over the lifespan of that plan.
Now, if you would have looked at a manufacturer backed plan, say a 5 year, 75,000 plan that cost $1,500 and then a WG or SC that costs $800, the math alone would cause some concern. WHY would you be concerned here?
The reason why we pay out about 85% in claims, is because we COVER more parts on a vehicle than most other providers. So, a WG or SC at $800 means what???? Do you think that they know more about how to fix a car or truck better than the people who make them???? Not!!! They can't, we have more skilled people, knowledge and information to know what to charge based upon our EXPERIENCE in the market.
So, what that boils down to, is that they are BETTING on the fact that they will make up more VOLUME and hope that they don't receive a large portion of big claims that saps their premiums collected and invested into conservative investments (earning 3-5% interest).I don't blame a person for wanting to make money, by BETTING on something to go right, but I don't want them betting my money on it, DO YOU???
Going back to my math. If our plan is $1,500 and we pay out $1,275, then their charge for that same plan is $800??? Their price doesn't even come close to what we PAY OUT in claim coverage. Are you worried yet?
So, what that tells me is that they either don't cover to many parts or of the parts they do cover, they probably don't cover the WHOLE repair. This is usually the case when it comes down to medium (AC/Heating systems) to large repairs (Engine/Transmission replace/overhauls). Those of you that bought a low cost VSC plan from these fly by night providers and had a large repair, probably found this out very quickly and it costs you additional $$$$.
Now, I'm not saying that our plans are the only ones you should buy. BUT, if you are going to put money out on the table to cover a repair on a vehicle that has over 15,000 mechanical parts on it, wouldn't you want the one that covers almost every single mechanical part, not just the little ones????
These are thoughts to ponder when you decide to buy your next GM,Ford or Daimler vehicle. My last TIP for you buyers out there, if you see a MOM and POP vsc provider out there, ask the company if they are formed under a RISK RETENTION GROUP. If they ARE, DO NOT, and I mean DO NOT buy it!!!!! If you do, then you may face the same problems that all those Warranty Gold and Smart Choice buyers are facing.
GOOD LUCK and KEEP EM DRIVING STRAIGHT!!!
I WILL stick with the GM, FORD or Daimler plan should I ever consider buying another VSC. But for now I'm gonna gamble that the Big Three know how to build them right and hope for the best, even though my 2000 Silverado is a knocker! Funny how the Big Three will gamble that they don't know how to build them right and sell you a VSC. Ironic !
Ray T.
From skimming the recent posts, I get the idea that if I had waited a bit longer to file a dispute, that I would have got nothing due to the bankruptcy. I was worried about that when I did file hoping that their bank account would stay open long enough for my dispute to go through.
Also - GM card told me that they do have a policy that disputes have to be made within a certain amount of time, but the policy is not cast in stone because some purchases like these warranties have a very long contract period. Bottom line, they looked at these cases individually and acted in a manner that makes sense. Mine was a 6 year contract with lots of miles yet to go as well.
Anyway - I have to mostly disagree with your understanding and assessment of the situation.
FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
AUSTIN DIVISION
In re:
WARRANTY GOLD, LTD., Case No.
03-15721-FRM
Debtor
NOTICE TO CREDITORS AND OTHER PARTIES IN INTEREST
REGARDING CONTINUATION OF HEARING
TO ALL CREDITORS AND OTHER PARTIES IN INTEREST IN
THE ABOVE CHAPTER 11 PROCEEDING:
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN by the undersigned counsel
for MELISSA NEWMAN, individually and on behalf of
a Class consisting of all similarly situated
persons ("Newman"), a creditor in the above
entitled and numbered Chapter 11 proceedings, that
the Bankruptcy Court has this date granted
Newman's Motion for Continuance with respect to
the hearing scheduled in this case for Thursday,
January 8, 2004, on the Bankruptcy Court's
previous Order Granting Amended Motion to Reject
all Pre-June 7, 2003 Customer Extended Warranty
Contracts and to Modify and Extend Response
Deadline. The hearing on this matter will not
take place as originally scheduled on January 8,
2004; instead, the hearing on this matter will be
conducted before the United States Bankruptcy
Court on Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 9:30
o'clock a.m. The hearing on the Motion will take
place in the United States Bankruptcy Court,
Austin Courtroom #1, which is located on the third
floor of the Homer Thornberry Judicial Building at
903 San Jacinto Street, Austin, Texas 78701.
/s/ Weldon Ponder______________________
B. WELDON PONDER, JR., Attorney at Law
State Bar of Texas No. 16110400
3500 Jefferson Street, Suite 200
Austin, Texas 78731-6224
Phone (512) 472-0764 / Fax (512) 472-0765
ATTORNEY FOR NEWMAN
Anyway, nice to know that Joe is still working there, wonder how many raises he's recieved & what his Christmas bonus was.
That said, and my venting ended, I realize we all made a big mistake.
What I'm most upset about is that this company continues to do business, and the courts still allow them to do so.
I'm in FL, I had a horrid accident & everything was covered by WG in Sept 2002, so I see it as I got something out of it.
I have chalked this up to 'high hopes' of seeing anything out of this, but I'm hoping for a happy ending for all.
"The deadline for objecting to the Court's November 12, 2003 Order Rejecting Pre-June 7 Contracts was December 8, 2003.
The February 5, 2004 hearing at 9:30 a.m. is open to the public. At that hearing, those persons that objected to the entry of the November 12, 2003 Order will have an opportunity to voice their objection to the Court. If an objecting party does not attend, that party's objection may not be considered by the Court.
However, failure to attend this hearing does not affect any customer's right to a distribution on claims filed in the bankruptcy. A customer can assert his/her claim by filing a proof of claim in the bankruptcy. Instructions on filing such a claim can be found at http://www.warrantynews.com. The deadline for filing claims is March 17, 2004.
We at Warranty Gold apologize for any confusion that has been caused by these notices. However, according to the statutes applicable to bankruptcy cases and the orders of the bankruptcy court, we are required to send you these notices to keep you informed of your rights as to Warranty Gold.
Thank you."
http://www.credit-to-cash-advisor.com/news_125.html
You have a 0.8% chance of it happening to some company you deal with on average. Multiplied by the number of business you deal with in a prepay fashion.
http://www.bizstats.com/businesses.htm
Obviously in the extended service business it is 10 times higher based on the numbers of companies filing.
Not since Daewoo has this happened to a vehicle manufacturer......who also had a finance arm that sold policies........however Ford came close.
http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=3097
Lets see if they post it or not. All their testomonials are pre February 2003.
I also got to one of their customer reps. on the other end who is sending out these e-mail updates of court date, here's some more laughter....
"You used ethics in the same sentence with vulagar language. The best use of your time is to file the required paperwork by the date indicated. All the information and forms are found at www.warrantynews.com"
I would post what I sent but it's not allowed on this board. But I'm sure you can all read between the lines based on their response to me.
Response also recieved from Discover Card using the Chapter 11 issue for their reason to do nothing more for me, their "former" customer.
If anything I'm making the best out a bad situation and having a good time of it at least.... cheers to all !
Ray T.
In the 20 years that we have had 2 different accounts with Discover, they more than had 130k of my business. Loyalty means nothing to Discover card, we are just numbers. Go back to Garnes post 1547, there are avenues if your c.c. company chooses to take them.
It's now their loss, I have moved on to another c.c. company. The power of choice prevails.
Ray T.
For me, I am NOT trying to rip my CC off, expecting them to take a "hit" or whatever; I had been charged for months following WG's No longer paying for repairs - and WG DID NOT notify me so I could not even cancel my contract - they kept CHARGING me - even AFTER they refused to pay for a covered repair! I may have lost half of my money before June when they were technically still paying for repairs, but WG stole the rest after June 7th knowing they were not honoring contracts. I hope readers understand THIS is why I am frustrated with WG and my CC. I consider this stealing. If My CC co had properly handled the case in a timely manner, this could have been resolved BEFORE the bankruptcy - even though my CC rep said the bankrupcty had no bearing on the dispute I made prior to it. Yeah, first I believe the load of garbage WG sells me, then I am supposed to take legal advice on bankruptcy Laws from a CC rep. Yet, she assured me.
I blame My CC for dropping the ball, giving WG time to file their bankruptcy and now leaving ME stuck with a huge balance, a worthless contract, and Repairs I have to pay for - all because WG used the LAW to rip me off. And to some people, if they lost under $2000, it's no big deal, just a lesson learned. Others like me do not like being ripped off. So I come here to vent and hopefully read how someone successfully defeated WG.
Hunter, Would you mind e-mailing me the wording of your letter taking out all the private info of course. Discover Card has finally kicked my complaint up a higher notch after I embarrassed the hell out of them. It seems the best way to communicate with them is by registering for online activity and then sending secure e-mail messages.
Ray T.
I don't know why WG isn't disputing all chargebacks but there must be a reason and I am glad some people are not getting ripped off. I disputed WG almost 2 months before they even notified me by mail as I had to find out the hard way when my car was in for a repair they would not pay for. And then when I disputed it, My CC rep advised me to NOT cancel the contract (LOL again I trust my CC to advise me?!) as that could change the terms of my dispute due to the way WG words their contracts, which did make sense to me as I was proving WG had breeched it, it wasn't me wanting to cancel it. It was confusing but my CC led me to believe it would be easy at that time.
RayT - I just read in Consumer Reports that many CC companies have a dept to handle disputes beyond being turned down by the regular dispute dept - something to that effect - it was called "Escalating" - check out a current CR magazine for the exact article/name, as I don't have it with me. They have an article about disputes/billing errors/etc.
B of A has 2 separate departments. The charges falling within the first 90 or so days of a charge, and the ones beyond this time frame. The 90 day dispute staff is generally fast, efficient, and knowledgeable. The second dispute staff is not nearly as friendly. This is where you must stick with services not rendered, and I think they are experienced in this area more in the realm of travel arrangements paid for in advance and not provided/rendered down the road.
Hunter may have also been able to retain his refund under the WG's satisfaction guaranteed initial cancellation provision.
For the money they spend on attorney fees, they could probably refund us all!
I do think the timeliness had a lot to do with it as well. It started looking hopeless and I just wanted to get something going before WG's accounts were frozen or whatever.
I do have to say that it does seem some cc companies will go the distance and others don't want to be hassled or whatever. It's really weird. Once GM card contacted me about illicit charges and cleaned the whole thing up before the next statement. It's cool they could sniff out the fraud so fast - and I've traveled the globe and that never tripped anything. They probably saw multiple charges from all over simultaneously. In short, GM card has impressed me a lot.
Anyway, today I got a form letter from these morons. They say "it was not clear from your inquiry the type of adjustment which you request". And they want me to send copies of my statements and a bunch of other paperwork.
The thing is, in my initial request to get the chargeback I sent all this stuff. Copies of my statements with the charges marked as to what they were for. A copy of my contract. A copy of my cancellation and a letter from WG indicating that the contract was basically null & void and they would not be paying refunds until the NWIG matter was settled. And probably other things too.
After quite some time, 6-8 weeks I think, and not hearing from them, I sent a follow-up letter. It just amazes me how in this day and age companies are getting atrocious in handling customer matters. Customer Service, across the board, had really gone down hill in the last decade.
quigonjohn - Not sure about the interest having to be paid, but with my CC I was told I could not close the account with an open dispute - not sure if that is true since they spout things as gospel when I have since learned isn't always true - and I get different answers from diff reps.
As for the time it takes CC companies to deal with disputes I have read there are tons of disputes and billing errors and I guess the small dept can only handle so much at a time (or bother actually reading them entirely) which causes delays detrimental to my case as it should have been resolved whether in my favor or not BEFORE the Nov bankruptcy. So because of their errors it has dragged on for months now WITH the bankruptcy a factor. And I have had to re-send the SAME information several times now, too so I know how it goes. Conspiracy theories LOL - did they deliberately delay my dispute until after the official announcement of bankrutpcy to make it easy and not be able to do anything? Don't know. Is it Incompetence? Overworked employees? Deliberate? They had no legitimate answer for the Extreme Delay (approx 2 MONTHS) other than "We're sorry..."
I wonder if I had never contacted them if my chargeback would have been permanent since they didn't reverse it until my Second inquiry - or were they waiting for the dispute ending date to pass and then reverse it? How would I prove I never received the Response (they never sent) since they use regular mail? Thankfully the reps I have spoke to on the phone have been honest in telling me nothing was ever sent to me - but I know what is said verbally means nothing.
And do they investigate disputes? From what I was told - NO. When I explained WG breeching contracts, etc. has been all over TV, newspaper, and the internet, it doesn't matter. It's more of a "I say/They Say" dispute with each defending WHY. If neither side backs down, or if the CC company thinks they will lose, they will no longer fight, or, I was told it could go to arbitration with Mastercard. So when I send documents from WG "spinning" the problems with NWIC are causing them to NOT pay claims, or stating my contract is being rejected by the courts per WG, it doesn't mean a thing. My contract is VALID cause WG says so.
And garnes, when you say some cc companies will go the distance and others don't want to be bothered - ITA. I'm just one of probably thousands of disputes, I wasn't taken seriously, they didn't contact me AT ALL about WG fighting me, and they then accepted WG's Response as the truth without question, despite having contradicting documentation I sent. I can only speculate on what or why they did what they did, but I am not happy, still awaiting word of the official closing of my dispute that I should have received two weeks ago according to them. I'm trying to get my dispute "escalated" so I'll see where that gets me.
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/ is the Texas Attorney General
http://www.centraltx.bbb.org/ Is Austin BBB
Go to the Kansas Attorney General and Insurance Commissioner of Kansas and file complaints. Also, I am going to try and get WG stopped from doing business in Kansas. Most likely it won't do any good, but maybe I will feel better. I live in the state capital and retired from the state so I know my way around the capital area. Also, we all can do the same in Texas via snail mail. That is file a complaint with the Attorney General and BBB of Austin. These guys should not be allowed to go on with business as usual. Something is wrong with this system. I have to pay my bills or lose my house and car. Lets use every option available to let Texas and our own state we are mad and document so others will know.
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/ is the Texas Attorney General
http://www.centraltx.bbb.org/ Is Austin BBB
Now Great American wants to sell me a policy, I think I have had enough.