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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    On second thought, I am swagging the smaller engine will probably use slightly more than the larger engine. I certainly use the smaller engine more aggressively than the 3.0 L . 100 mph comes up pretty quick on the 3.0L as it lulls one to sleep. On a 2.0 I am whipping its haunches. @ those speeds the engine is SCREAMING. (figuratively of course)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    El Presidentiae just moved on ! link title
  • jpp75jpp75 DenverPosts: 1,418
    I'd give the diesel C class serious consideration for my next ride if they bring it over.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited March 2013
    Since petrol is the equivalent of one cent a US gallon in Caracas when I recently checked, I don't think it's going to get any cheaper. :shades:

    "BNSF Railway Co., one of the country's biggest consumers of diesel fuel, plans this year to test using natural gas to power its locomotives instead."

    Berkshire's BNSF Railway to Test Switch to Natural Gas (WSJ)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    That could have an effect on urea usage. I also read it has to do with how hard you push the engine. Anyway I don't believe it is the cost issue it was made out to be at first. Does VW include it with the service contract like BMW?
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    edited March 2013
    With Chavez dead it may jump up to market price. Depending on what the next greedy dictator decides to do with the oil wealth. They did kick out our diplomats. Another country we are enemies with.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    Yes, I am sure more aggressive rpm does have an effect. I think I will probably use even less (ad blue), once the break in is complete (@30,000 to 60,000 miles)

    I am finding it hard to push the 3.0 engine very hard without using lower gearing, as I did during early break in (under 65 mph). I do let it decelerate as aggressively as I can (or probably more operationally: NTE 4,000 rpm) without being a safety hazard on LONGER downgrades. The "no fuel draw" feature (with no throttle demand) really adds to the mpg. The 8 speed A/T is also VERY robust.

    I think we showed the cost/s. Truly it does not seem to be the issue that some might have feared. In any case I think the supporting data/formulas is/are there for anyone to use as they see fit. I got the Ad blue cheaper than Walmart's prices. It is probably why they include it in the contract !? ;) :shades:
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,555
    The basic Prius isn't terribly expensive, and a VW TDi isn't too upmarket - many 4cyl cars get good mileage too these days. The impacts might not be as great as could be though, for like you say - with rising fuel market prices via no valid market reasons, efficient cars don't help people save, rather just maintain the same expense.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,555
    I would have chosen one instead of an E if it existed here. C250 seems like the optimal choice for me - decent performance and mileage, while still being an actual car.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    To me that is one utility of the VW Jetta TDI. It is NOT upmarket. :surprise: Another is given the fact this 10/11 year old car is getting close to turning 200,000, it is almost NOT a challenge to turn 300,000 miles. 50 mpg driven hard might be another. :shades:
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited March 2013
    Funny how that works. I think I've talked my wife into deferring car shopping for another year. She knows I'm trying to have one car in my life that I put 200k on.

    Not having driven the van for 2 months isn't helping run the miles up though. :shades:

    (and I'd settle for one 30 mpg tank driven easy).
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    The most I have personally put on a vehicle is 107k miles on a 1974 Dodge Van. The engine needed overhaul at 104K. So I had the engine and transmission rebuilt at the same time. It was 1983 and they charged me $1700 total. I drove it about 6 months and traded it on a new Ford Bronco. Most they would give me in trade was $1700. Lesson learned on keeping vehicles too long and spending money on repairs. The 84 Ford Bronco was one of my favorite vehicles.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    As you guys talk it is actually causing me to alter my perspectives a bit.

    I am not sure how CA compares with the audiences in the other 50 states, but I am not eager to spend close to 9% in sales tax every 100,000 miles.

    So folks can easily get a handle on it, PER 10k that is app 900.

    So 20k, 30k , 40k (for a car) can put that @ a + plus $1.8k, 2.7k, 3.6k. It also boosts your car registration to ever increasing new year car registration, which does go down every year after. There is talk of reinstating the 2% declining yearly fee, in lieu of state income tax. This would be in addition to the state sales tax. In other words tax on tax is the concept. The realities are tax on tax on tax, etc. Insurance also spikes and you carry comprehensive and collision insurance almost perpetually.

    To state the obvious, going forward, one will have a hard time buying a $10,900 vehicle. Just the simple fact of unstated inflation boosts the price of a car from year to year app 4%. So really for planning purposes, one is really looking at a $21,800. Again, even that is a moving target.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    Thinking about taxes per mile driven is a REAL cost to drivers. Worrying about the half cent for AdBlue is chump change per year. If you drive your diesel 15,000 miles per year in CA AdBlue is about $75 of your cost per year.
    Your fuel tax on the same miles at 30 MPG will be $397.50. Toss in another $450 per year for state vehicle registration, and you get some serious taxes on driving here.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Indeed I would agree.

    I mean I can understand a non diesel type blowing an intellectual gasket at the thought of ad blue (additional) costs and the extra effort. So for example, if I DIY for the ad blue (given your example plus real costs @ 20 per 15,000 miles), the ad blue costs per mile driven is closer to .00133.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Plus a couple of hours of time (shopping and pouring it in).

    But yeah, guys like me who balk at buying a car that requires premium fuel or having to use synthetic oil don't like the thought of additional maintenance.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,555
    From what I can tell from the adblu tank on my car, it's insanely easy to refill - the tank is in the spare tire well, and the filling hole is right on top. Get a funnel and pour.

    Guys like you aren't going to shop a complex or highline car to begin with ;)
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Nope, and I don't want to fight your traffic to find a jug at Fred Meyers either. :)

    Interesting that you think diesel cars are "complex" though.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    I do not have the specs, but the consumption rates of the MB E350 bluetec are probably not much different from the VW Touareg's. The most complicated procedure I have to do to add adblue is to remove all the junk in the way of the trunk to get to the tanks filling neck. In the Touareg's case a backing and a rug and a catch mat.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,555
    edited March 2013
    Could probably buy it online and have it shipped. Who shops for everything on foot these days? :shades:

    A diesel like mine is a complex car compared to the base Rio that might appeal to a skinflint. The systems will be unfamiliar to the normal gasoline car driver, and finding fuel will worry them. It's probably not for everyone, but could be for many more than it is now.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Well, never having owned one I can't really say, but my guess is that the biggest complexity is finding a mechanic who has diesel training. A good dealership should cover that base.

    And yeah, the USPS woman has been here twice already this week. :-)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Well he has a point---diesels today are very sophisticated in their own right--just because they don't have a normal ignition system doesn't mean they don't have computers, turbos, emissions systems, etc.

    They also run extremely high compression ratios and are fuel-sensitive buggers, so you have to be on your toes to run a diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    The points are well taken. However I think the truth in ANY make (gaser/diesels) are a good mechanic/s, let alone a good SHOP/s are jewels !!The down side of that is not all jewels are TREASURES.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    But yeah, guys like me who balk at buying a car that requires premium fuel or having to use synthetic oil don't like the thought of additional maintenance.

    That is why they make plain vanilla ice cream. I prefer Dulce de leche or better yet a nice Creme Brulee with fresh raspberries on top.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    Further, most all those things are unscheduled maintenance. Most of the scheduled stuff CAN be DYI. Now I personally can do most to all except the 100,000, 120,000 miles timing belt and water pump changes, scheduled major tune, aka diesel related, arguably. Schedule maintenance like oil and filter changes, tire rotation, are really not diesel related, per se. Brake rotors, pads, suspension, parts alignment and tire changing and alignments are others that are not per se diesel related.

    So I just had one of my first diesel related unscheduled maintenance items @ app 179,000 miles. Computer scan indicated an intermittent #3 glow plug check idiot light issue. The $69 glow plug harness was swapped out and just for preventative grins, 4 glow plugs were changed out. Over kill? yes.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,257
    edited March 2013
    Overkill? I'd say that's wise preventative maintenance. It may be premature at 179,000 (my father-in-law's 1997 F350 diesel is having glow plug issues at 350,000 miles, but his truck was used as a pilot vehicle for 300K of those, so there were many miles driven between starts), but bad glow plugs will strand you in the least opportune of places.

    You just reset the clock for the whole system. That's a wise move to prevent down time in the future as they each fail one by one.
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    that F350 couldn't have its original turbo, though right? They were known to be fragile.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Thanks for the heads up. I have always taken the attitude to call em as I see them or when they happen.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I agree, money well spent..plus, leaving them in too long can result in a very complicated issue getting them out. I speak from experience on my old 77 Rabbit.. :sick:
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Boy, that's for sure. Now I can't speak for the new HPFP systems, but the old mechanical injection pumps had tolerances closer than any gas job. In fact, when working on a pump, the tolerances are so close, that if you hold some parts in your hand too long before placing them, the heat from your hand will expand them enough they won't fit and you have to start over. Plus, if ya wanna talk clean?.. when working on pump innards..how about needing to be almost as clean as a manufacturing plant that produces CD's.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I'd probably do more of my own maintenance on a diesel car than on my current MINI, maybe because I understand diesel engines and what they need---but I'd still run into computers and very sensitive fuel delivery systems.

    I'd still be tempted to consider a diesel as my next car. I can't imagine getting a 2013 hybrid repaired once it's out of warranty.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    I think the mention of the DIESEL's HPFP issues (while absolutely TRUE) can be woefully UN balanced, until one mentions that the GASSERS in the US markets are experiencing it in far greater volume and percentage than ... diesels, given the gassers are 95% of the passenger vehicle fleet, defacto diesels are 5%.

    Here is merely one OEM example.

    GASSER hpfp issues

    Why the leap was made to the hpfp being a diesel issue "ONLY" defies the LOGIC and the facts.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think it's because diesel fuel can get pretty wonky---it can gel, it requires excellent filtration, etc. Also diesels are often associated with VW, and that somewhat tarnishes their reputation.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    Nowhere did I say, or even allude to HPFP having issues..
    Or were you referring to a post somewhere 6 months ago?
    I was simply expressing that diesels can be still quite a complicated IC engine.

    As for potential issues, they have their own set of rules (compared to gas IC) with broad boundaries. I am reminded of one of the brands..I think was VW, who had a recall for the injector lines breaking at or near the fuel injectors, posing a fire hazard. It was determined that the break was from vibration due to the incredibly high power pulses of having exceptionally high inline pressures, combined with the high CR shake that a diesel exhibits. Very few design engineers could have predicted this.....well wait...that isn't what I meant to say...rather..they did have vibration handling design built in to the original line rack mounting areas...but it wasn't until more miles were racked up by the buying public that the design weakness revealed it wasn't up to snuff.
    VW stepped up of course.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    My response was in response to Shiftright's post, and not to you or yours. That should also answer your second question.

    I also am not sure where later model diesels got the reputation of being uncomplicated. Later models have never been. Just as later model gassers have not been. I think the "last uncomplicated "GASSER that I can remember was my 1970 VW Beetle bought in 1971 USED. That was of course 43 years ago.

    On the hpfp vibration issue, the 2009 Jetta TDI (one of the ones I would be concerned with) was brought into the local VW dealer (2011 ish?) for the #2 fuel injection line "resonance issue" TSB,: SR 23J9/V5. The fear here was the natural resonance would create stress and degrade the #2 fuel line over time. This increases the chances of fuel leaks over a very small number of parts: fire basically: NHTSA C ID# 11V490000.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    ..."I think it's because diesel fuel can get pretty wonky---it can gel, it requires excellent filtration, etc. Also diesels are often associated with VW, and that somewhat tarnishes their reputation."...

    RUG/PUG vs D2 really have different ways they can get wonky. In that sense, both HPFP's require "excellent" filtration.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    True, true, but diesel fuel has more problems to deal with--it is inherently unstable, and is also subject to bio-growth, mold, wax build up, etc. It's definitely more of a pain than the usual gasoline issues.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,257
    Original as far as I know. It only had about 55,000 miles on it when I finished the drive from Alaska to Oregon with it back in October 2007, and the only non-fluid related work on it was the replacement of a fuel line that burst just before we left on the trip (fantastic timing on that one!).

    My FIL said that the had replaced some wear components in the suspension, engine hoses, and something about the injectors (which was the biggest issue he had with the truck prior to the glow plugs going south). So, overall it's been extremely reliable given the miles on it now. But, those 300K miles were put on it in three years (2008-2010)!

    They weren't getting consistent enough work in piloting to make ends meet, so they went a different direction and started driving the trucks instead of piloting them. Now, they rarely need to drive a passenger vehicle (pickups included).
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    Regular old RUG has a much better shelf life than the current E10 RUG we are forced to put in our Gas Tanks. With diesel there are additives to prevent diesel from getting wonky. I don't think there is much you can do with E10 to prevent problems with it sitting for long periods. I know it screws up my chipper and weed whacker.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    My response was in response to Shiftright's post, and not to you or yours. That should also answer your second question.


    I didn't see shifty say anything about HPFP systems having issues either..

    Relax, ruking, breathe ;) ..not everyone is here to jump on anything diesel negative..certainly not me..
    Send that defense mode off for a nap ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    ..."and very sensitive fuel delivery systems. "...

    "I didn't see shifty say anything about HPFP systems having issues either.. "

    I guess that would really depend on what he meant about "very sensitive fuel delivery systems", eh?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    Well, the old fairy tale starts off with: once upon a time when I lived in the north east with homes using close to bunker home heating oil, heating water for steam (radiator) heating..., I do not recall the landlord doing anything to the periodic fuel oil delivery systems.

    Now that is not to say there are not some folks who for whatever reason like to store up to 55 gal plastic drums of bio diesel in their garages !!!!! ??????? :confuse: :sick: :lemon:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Well your furnace doesn't have to operate at 75 mph in the rain and snow and wild temperature variations, and, in fact, has its own built in fuel-warmer!

    Maybe you should have this discussion with some truckers, because they meet issues with diesel fuel all the time and they know what's up like nobody else does, including me.

    I've owned diesel cars and diesel boats, so I'm just conveying what I had to deal with. I did lots of filter changes, bio-cide, cetane additives, water traps, injector additives and fresh fuel changes, and I had pretty trouble-free performance. :)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited January 2013
    Again..you're seeing something I'm not I guess..
    I did see this: "They also run extremely high compression ratios and are fuel-sensitive buggers" though..
    You just added the "delivery systems" to support your reply..instead of sending that defensiveness off for a nap like I suggested!! ;) :P
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    It sure does :( And using a product like Stabil, doesn't seem to create miracles on the storage shelf off season either. I have a number of gasoline and diesel engines in my fleet. The small engined seasonal ones are the most fussy. I think because of their small capacity..chainsaws and weed eaters/blowers all have super small tanks. So I have a regime here now...I literally go around every two months or so and replace the gas in those rarely used items with new gas. eg. gas coming out of my generators gets used in something else with bigger capacity and used more often.

    And coincidently, I thought I had this issue sorted, and even with these efforts, I still had to tear down the carb on my Yammy generator just yesterday..the knees are still screwed..
    I think I forgot to syphon and refreshen the gas in it once a year ago, and that was all it took to screw it up. i HATE ethanol :mad:

    Speaking of which..any electrical engineers here? My 2400 watt'r is defaulting into "overload" cycle (which requires shutting the engine off to reset) when attempting to power a 14 amp Skil saw. I can't even get it to stay by pressing the saw power button momentarily a number of times letting it build revs progressively, thinking that that would address the electric motor surge on start up. It will still run an electric heater, which I think is a 1200 or even 1500 watt. It'll easily power up two 5 amp electric drills powered on at same time..so I wonder what is up with the saw? Any ideas? It's a fairly fancy 2400 watt generator..uses inverter tech, very PC friendly and super quiet. It's been my standby for all things 'light' when the power goes out..TV, PC, fridge/freezers etc.
    And it still will run all these things fine, but recently started to balk at anything with a draw of more than about 700 watt. Asking it to start that saw is not outta line at all I wouldn't think..it is a 2400 watt, limme check the amp rating..16.7. Just went and got my old Makita saw which is 13 amp. It used to start it fine. But not this 14 amp Mastercraft, even...like I say.. switching the on/off momentarily a number of times letting it build revs progressively. Ya, the 13 amp tried to snuff it but didn't. Maybe the extra 1 amp is the issue after all. But something else and this one I am not sure if I bought it new this way..the 12 voltput says 19.96 volt and still 16.9 volt when powering an old 12 volt headlight beam. I wonder if there is a voltage reg that works on both sides of AC and DC? (it says to never run DC at same time, but don't know why..I always assumed this was idiot-proofing wording so someone doesn't try to run full 6.5 amp 12 DC and 16.7 amp 120 v AC at same time). 120 side is 124.8 volt under no load.

    I thought this was because of a dirty carb..(it is how I found out it was gummed a bit) cuz for the past few years all it ever did was light duty. But one day I tried to plug in a 700 watt heater and it snuffed the engine and threw the overload light on. After cleaning the carb..I just went and tried it on that same heater and it is fine now.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    I just merely lifted/repeated the quote. I didn't ADD anything.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    For me anyway the BIGGEST potential issue is the much larger current draw during winter. But the funny thing has been in 10 seasons of literal instant start during winter (snow). My batteries (3) have crapped out in perfectly warm and seemingly unstressed weather periods. :confuse: Two crapped out after I parked in the garage.

    I have never had bad D2( in 255k miles). On the other side, (255k or 510k total miles) I have never had bad RUG/PUG. If I did for EITHER, it did NOT affect running.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    yeah you did...you translated "fuel-sensitive" into "fuel pump" :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited March 2013
    ;) So if you are saying the fuel pump is not sensitive?.... what is the fuss about ?????? :surprise:
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    The fuss is.. that you are not quoting accurately, then feebly try to defend it!

    I am quite confident that shifty would not concede that the fuel pump is not sensitive to the fuel that's intro'd to it.. AND YOU KNOW THAT! Quit trying to have to be right all the time! We're all friends here, especially those who support diesel on this forum..quit trying to have to constantly feel you gotta defend! Sheeshh..
This discussion has been closed.