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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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In recent years, due to our discussions here on these forums, I did MORE research and became even MORE knowledgeable about diesel exhaust ills.
So actually, it's a very educated statement, in fact.
Soot levels ARE reduced by ULSD. But the reduction of harmful compounds is FURTHER reduced by the scrubbing hardware on modern (post-2007) diesel vehicles.
If we could just change to ULSD and have the exhaust be clean as daisy flowers, then no one would need those "retrofit" kits that all these school buses and trucks are using.
I think you might think, I am lying.
Here is the thing there are lots more (unmitigated) products that burn RUG to PUG than passenger diesel cars.
So if RUG to PUG and ULSD are burnt unmitigated and ppm sulfur is 30-90 ppm, 30-90 ppm and 5 ppm respectively, which pollutes more?
Here in New Hampshire our limit is 4000 ppm; we burn through about 2500 gallons of heating oil per year for our family.
The lower the better if they let them use fuel that dirty.
There is not a linear answer to that.
The conclusion and answer is "one fuel contains less sulfur than the other one."
There is MORE to exhaust pollution than MERELY SULFUR CONTENT.
I already told you that last week.
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I tend to lean to the more practical side, do it for all, or do it for none.
Is anyone clamoring for RUG/PUG particulate filters?
Don't you think that would have been regulated already, as for diesel, had it been necessary for health issues?
FWIW, as with many other states in New England, New Hampshire is about to buy into a regional initiative to reduce Home Heating Oil to a sulfur cap of 500 PPM by 2016.
But like I said you and various enviro cons groups want to infer/imply that one half of one percent of passenger vehicle fleet ( the diesel cars and since 2009 diesel cars have DPF and/or UREA,) CAUSE the majority of passenger car emissions. You don't even have to do much analysis to see the sheer numbers and percentages do not support that notion.
HO 5,000 ppm sulfur
Another ref: HO 5000 ppm sulfur
Speaking of gross hypocrisy AND heaven forbid LATE to the PARTAY, NY STATE HO from 2,000 to 15,000 ppm sulfur....
but spin doctored well
First of all, please do not lump me with THIS group, as I am not a member of nor do I promote any "enviro cons" groups.
Second of all, I have NEVER EVER said anything about diesel exhaust being a majority of emissions. That would be dumb, considering the huge number of non-diesel vehicles on the roads.
I would have never, and indeed HAVE never, said or intimated that.
What I want reduced, and YES I'M TELLING YOU THAT YOU ALSO SHOULD WANT THIS. is the number of "dirty diesel" vehicles still making dirty air and continuing soot and PM pollution.
I want all, no ALL, of those sources cleaned up. And so should you, and every human on earth.
And I'd also LOVE to see a PZEV requirement on all gasser whose engines are small enough to be thus equipped.
But again, the carmakers would balk at a regulation like that, just as the diesel carmakers constantly battle for less regulation for their diesel vehicles too.
If you are genuine about your feelings for diesel, you should temper the enthusiasm with a shot or two of "I wish it were even CLEANER" to make your stance more logical.
I wish every car on the road were cleaner - regardless of fuel type.
(OK, maybe not the Honda Civic GX NGV. Don't know how that one could get cleaner. )
With a passenger diesel fleet of 1.272 M, you will literally have to go diesel passenger vehicle to diesel passenger vehicle to do this. So really it is a pointless point, gesture, position , posture. Indeed at the smog only station (where I brought mine when smog station was required) NONE of the diesels so inspected have failed.
The issue is really as you probably know by now is singling out THE extreme minority position ( even less than one half of one percent or 1.272 M (to LESS) passenger diesel vehicles) that were actually exempt from emissions tests because they were in compliance. So naturally when you make it sound like passengers car diesels are the ONLY ones doing the polluting...... nuff said !?
btw, there's an oil tank in my basement that was used after the owners converted from coal and before the converted to natural gas. Is there any market for these things or will I have to pay someone to take it off my hands?
Steely, the stuff you put in your diesel pickup isn't all that different from the heating oil stuff, and it gets mentioned in here a lot as people watch prices.
But yeah, we can get back to cars.
the 09 VW Jetta TDI throws down these numbers: ( per mile driven) ULSD/40.2 mpg=.10 cents,
09 Toyota Camry Hybrid RUG/36.6 mpg = .102459 cents
09 Toyta Camry RUG/26.3 mpg= .1425855 cents.
2011 Toyota Camry Hybrid is $4,085 more than 2011 Camry, which is $3,680 more than the 2011 VW Jetta TDI. 2011 Camry is -405 cheaper than the 2011 VW Jetta TDI.
.2011 Toyota Camry Hybrid is $4,085 more than the 2011 Camry.
Not comparably equipped, no.
If you go to Toyota.com and "Build Your Toyota" - go to the compare page and compare an XLE and a Hybrid and an LE side-by-side, you shall see that the XLE and the Hybrid have 12 common features standard (therefore are similar) and the LE only has 9 features in common with the Hybrid.
There are 20 optional/standard features/specs that are standard or optional on the Hybrid that are NOT EVEN AVAILABLE on the LE. They are not even anywhere near similarly equipped.
Looking at the individual features, you can't get an LE comparably equipped for anywhere near the price of a Hybrid. You can get a base XLE, which is VERY similarly configured to the Hybrid, for $325 less than a Hybrid.
This argument is very old....and stale.
The Jetta is a good value for the money, but if you look at the reliability history of the Camry relative to the VW, it's a no contest.
So, to summarize...This is what you might have said instead of the line I quoted:
2011 Toyota Camry Hybrid is $325 more than a similarly equipped 2011 Camry XLE
Yes, I know that heating oil is close to diesel, it's just that , as a native Houstonian, I read all of these heating oil discussions with a little (dark) humour............
Back on topic, I would really, really like to see more diesels PERIOD in cars , small and midsize pickups, and SUV's.......
I would buy a midsize SUV or Pickup in a heartbeat if a diesel (heaven, forbid!) were ever offered..........
I know I saw diesel Toyota 4Runners, Mitsubishi Monteros, etc, all over France during our travel there........
What are our diesel choices over here in the USA?.... Let's see, there is the VW Jetta, Golf (?), and (formerly) the Tiguan..........
Or you can plop down north of $60K and get yourself a MB or BMW diesel....
There may or may not be a diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee available ( MB supplied the engine)............
Finally, you can impress your whole neighborhood with a diesel behemoth pickup from Ford, Chevy, or Dodge Ram........
Pitiful, pitiful that we as a country seem hellbent on eliminating diesel power as an economical choice for smaller pickups and SUV's.....period........
Peugeot just introduced a diesel HYBRID for their home (French) market, so our curious American aversion to things diesel is frankly, laughable..........but we love ourselves some Quarter Pounders w/cheese........and you can Supersize that, please................. :sick:
LOL, you're cruel. Next time the power goes off down there and it's 90 with 90% humidity, I'll know where to find you (in your car with the AC on max
Peugeot makes some interesting cars but they sure made a bad impression in the US back in the late 80s/early 90s (?) with the mechanical issues. Really too bad for those of us who like funky looking rides.
TDI Clean Diesel models represented 19.6 percent of overall sales for the brand. More than 57 percent of Golf vehicles sold in February were TDI models; a record high diesel mix for the Golf.
Audi seems to be doing well with their diesel offerings.
Consumers continue to demand clean diesel vehicles; sales mix hit 47.67% for the Audi A3 TDI and 46.23% for the Q7 TDI
VW names sound like reptiles from the late Jurassic period....
BUT..........I still maintain there are few , few choices for diesels out there these days.................It's either German or a work pickup.............
That's 23 out of 585 vehicles found on the list.
There's 41 hybrids to choose from and 5 electric vehicles. One Civic equipped for natural gas is available.
The Car Finder results will let you play with other criteria. Like, 3 of the diesel rigs cost under $25k, 4 of the hybrids do.
And if you limit diesel options to those with mpg over 20, you wind up with 13 diesel options. 32 of the 41 hybrids get 30 or better.
So while we can actually cut imported oil (not a bad thing, but by those who would and do HATE us) by 35%, there are a myriad of barriers. Two germane to this thread: 1. need the diesel passenger cars population to go to 26+ percent of the population 2. Need domestic refiners to actually sell their domestic D2 products DOMESTICALLY.
http://www.edmunds.com/finder/car-finder-results.html#finder_q=type%3ADiesel%3B
Sam
Try starting at the beginning:
Car Finder
It is interesting there are 585 models to choice from.
I notice the url is shorter but the page itself is the same.
Both are fun places to visit, and if you go north, you can get diesel in Bodega Bay on the way. Watch out for the birds.
Sam
You may need to tweak your Java settings or install that program for your browser.
Sometimes clearing your cookies and cache helps (how to do that is also browser dependent but you can search on the specific steps).
What browsers are best for viewing Edmunds.com?
Oh well misery loves company they say.
I did try to clear cookies etc which has you sign in again but didn't seem to affect it.
Sam
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-clean-diesel-sales-dashboard/february-2011.html- -
February 2011
2.35% market share, 42,726 hybrids
0.04% market share, 756 plug-in EVs including Volt
0.64% market share, 12,578 diesels
Going back to the start of this thread, the systems engineering approach is to first ask, "What are the requirements?" and then see how the diesel matches. Instead, we're seeing a lot of diesel to other car attributes without thinking about the customer first . . . Let me give an example, somewhat extreme but common enough.
You are an older couple with no live-in dependents and own your home, debt free. You are still working and bringing in over $100k per year. Your home is your office so you drive 5,000 miles or less each year. What car do you buy?
Any that feels good or none at all and call a cab. Mileage doesn't matter. Price doesn't matter. So get whatever you want and consider all forms of transportation ... airplane for speed, boat for a hole to dump excesses of money into, a really nice motorcycle, huge SUV, a limo . . . it doesn't matter because it is a 'toy' or 'style'. Style is what CNW Marketing claimed the Prius was in their 2006 "Dust-to-Dust" report but then they weren't really too interested in accuracy. So here is another case.
Someone just got out of the service and are trying to establish a career. The wife is expecting another child and the family lives in an apartment. Given the likely financial situation and absence of self-maintenance resources, get a previously owned but warranty still in effect, reliable, affordable car . . . Ford Focus or Kia class.
Really, it comes down to the owner's requirements as we remember that dogmatic thinking that 'you can have any color as long as it is black' is how Ford gave up market share to GM. To paraphrase the original question, 'You can have any car you want as long as YOU must buy a diesel' begs the question, "For what requirements?"
Bob Wilson
'You can have any car you want as long as YOU must buy a diesel' begs the question, "For what requirements?"
Long range, great torque enhances the driving experience and class leading mileage especially out on the hwy. For city driving a hybrid is probably fine. I have not found one I like. Or one that penciled out on the extra cost.
Not necessarily. The current rise is merely a symptom of VW finally making enough TDIs available.
Clean diesels rose because there were more available than before - os obviously the sales will grow - we all knew there was a little bit of pent-up market begging for cars.
Check those stats when all the people who wanted a TDI finally get one.
You said those exact words when hybrid sales flattened out (due to the ECONOMY, nothing more) so now you get them backatcha.
If there were the same 18 cars available in diesel versions as there are in hybrid versions, we'd have a race.
But diesel cars will NEVER overtake hybrids until Hon-Yota-Bishi-Dai-San start offering some tasty, affordable, clean diesel sedans.
Again the latest figures are: 2008 257.494 M registerd passenger vehicles.
You are really one of the EXTREME extreme minority that says it needs to be applied to diesels, especially if one uses 5,000 miles per year as a yardstick. If all I had to do was 5,000 miles per year, I would keep the least valuable and best fuel mileage one and cheapest insurance, etc etc.
But then on the other hand, if you operate a business from your house auto expenses are almost fully deductible. In fact certain vehicles can be up to fully expensed, the year they are put into service.
The diesel of course is considered "dirtier" ????
Fiat Punto Evo 94.2 MPG hwy UK
No it won't be. The headline is:
"Geneva 2011: 2012 Kia Rio EcoDynamics will be UK's Lowest Emission Car"
It's obviously not "dirtier" since it has lower emissions. It's 3.4% lower than the Prius. That makes it cleaner.
Hate on things non-diesel all you want, but don't try to twist things that are not bad and make them into something bad.
Because USA buyers have shown no inclination to buy them in droves.
People aren't camping out at VW dealerships begging for more Jetta TDIs.
You already know the dilemma.
It's just idiotic that we don't have more diesel choices here.
You say it is the buyers. I say it is government regulations. If CA can block the very clean Honda diesel they can block many others. I have to agree with Honda, it is not worth the hassle to make them CARB compliant. Easier to just sell all they can make in the EU and elsewhere.