I thought about that and don't know if that's a killer issue. Look at all the sedan transmissions that the automakers seem to put into minivans. Plenty have failed over the years, but not enough to hurt their warranty expenses.
On another subject, relating to diesel hybrids, Juice over in another thread mentioned a potential problem for this application due to lots of start/stop cycles. Cause for concern?
That is what it stands for. The problem with its use is apparent almost right away as the GASSER 1.8 T is actually a TDI. But that is confusing in that TDI has really become short for (what I said in the other post). turbo diesel injection.
The 1.8 should have been called the TGDI, since the TDI diesel came first. But really, VW should have called the first TDI, TDDI. I knew from the first day I read TDI it was going to cause confusion.
The problem with acronyms nowadays is there are just too many. And they are increasing in numbers every year, to the point that there is overlap.
There should be a page that has all the possible ones (related to everything automotive only) all in one place so a person doesn't have to constantly Google them.
Yeah I actually knew it was "technically" incorrect. But the first time you start to really explain, peoples' eyes just glaze over. It really is not a good reason for folks to think: OMG that was ANOTHER reason why I should NOT get a diesel.
Was doing a bit more research on the TDI as potential purchase. I am really on the fence and it is due only to the measures they have taken since creating the Clean Diesels. The after burner tech and even the 2 stage piezo type fuel injectors all add so much cost and complexity. (I might have the names wrong) Even if it works well for a few years, at some point that technology will be subjected to someone's maintenance repair bill. Not too sure if I want it to be mine. How much faith do you have in the tech used now in 2009 and newer TDI's to clean and keep clean the system?
I would like to find a really clean low mileage and cared for 2006 Jetta or Golf Wagon. I guess if I was being even more honest, I would prefer the pre TDI engine. It was slower, not that dirty because it was still very very efficient and the turbo models had enough torque to handle hills, loads, passing and A/C. There was never any need for anything more, IMHO.
Unfortunately though, even if a person were to find one of those old ones preserved away in a dry barn, the new fuel causes the pumps to start leaking by destroying seals.
The good/bad news has always been VW's were meant to be worked on. It is bad if you either mind bringing it to a TDI Guru or don't want to bother with DIY (do it yourself). VW does SEEM to have a higher percentage of those Dr Jekyll/ Mr Hyde issues (what I have come to call it).
There is also no doubt of your observation, the complexity over the complexity has become more... complex. But that is also true for gassers. It also stair steps for hybrids and plug ins.
The goal is (03 TDI) a minimum of 500,000 miles. So far (157,000 miles) the only real issues have been unscheduled maintenance of a mal functioning coolant sensor masquerading as a possible bad thermostat (a common issue it seems) for an $18.00 part and hour of labor. I do run 25,000 miles OCI's oil change intervals. The last one was @ 30,700 miles. It runs like the proverbial top. So in that sense, so far it has been Dr Jekyll.
Now I happen to run a 04 Civic side by side. I think it is fair to say Honda has a over all well deserved excellent reputation. I have to tell you that while I am not in the LEAST dissatified with it, it does have many (and I mean many) more nit picky issues than the VW has ever had . (like miles of course) The VW quality over all is literally heads and shoulders above the Honda.
At what mileage do you think you will be replacing fuel injectors? Certainly before the 500k as you will see FE go down. Torque too. And when you do, they will be a lot more affordable than if you had the new 2 stage type is my guess. I would evaluate them around the near 250/300 k mark. Your oil change intervals give me a bit of pause. I think more so the more miles you accumulate as there is bound to be a greater chance of fuel easing past the rings. And I assume your car gets up to full temperature for a number of miles each time you drive.
When I asked about HPFP issues, the dealership I was at last week said there is no HPFP since 2009. I couldn't believe my ears. When he saw my expression, he then said well there is but blah blah and I did not follow his explanation. Except for that, I was most impressed with the dealership. They have an open door policy in the shop at all times. That is very rare nowadays. I asked the same question at a GM dealer a few days later and their response was more of a relenting squirm. He said they would let you in the shop, but then escort you back out so the mechanic could work. He will never know how poorly that sat with me and had me thinking VW even if I bought the gas. I don't believe in being in the way or bombarding the mech with questions, but I do like the idea of being able to see the level of care and competence when they are working on my wheels. I don't expect him to be as detailed as I am, but I appreciate things like seeing a guy untorque a rocker cover or water pump housing a little at a time in the same reverse sequence as installing it and using a torque wrench on my rims. Things like that.
My arbitrary figures are what you have said, 250,000 to 300,000 miles. I am a bit conflicted in that I am looking forward to putting in bigger injectors. (.205 vs .184 stock) adding 25 hp and 40# ft. @ 300,000 + miles a TB/WP change will also be due.
I might have spoken 83,000 mile too early about the Honda Civic. I just walked back from the local independent Honda vendor that I use. I brought the 04 Civic in for a tire rotation, automatic transmission fluid change and get a TB/WP change estimate, BUT really to check brake pads and rotors, as Mr Hyde only comes out for my wife for the brake issue. He has a 200k + miles 2002 Civic in for a BLOWN headgasket. The mechanic mentioned in passing that will give $500 in change to a 2,000 bill. I just hope the 04 do not catch what the 02 had!!??
It might have been overheated one day. All it takes is plastic shopping bag to blow up and plant itself on the grill or rad. If I see a bag blow up on the highway, I look for it to come out the back. If I don't see it I'm looking for a shoulder to pull over onto right away.
Very few. The lack of exposure would be my guess. Someone not familiar with diesel cars should NOT buy one. You have to be careful not to put gas in the tank. I would never loan out a diesel vehicle to anyone.
I would say a lot more people know about hybrids than diesel cars. They have had a LOT more exposure in the media.
I went back again to the shop, to check up on the brake issue on the 04 Civic. It did need new front rotors and pads. They also gave a very competitive estimate on the TB/WP change. Since the Honda technician's time was/is a clicking, I went (as well) to do some of the stuff I was extending: the spark plugs and " computer tune up", valve check and adjust, coolant and thermostat (they had to drop the old stuff anyway for another procedure), automatic transmission fluid changed.
There are those that might ask what the H--- does this have to do with diesels? Since I have a Jetta TDI and Civic side by side, it is a comparison. I can tell you without getting to the point of TMI, the Civic (GASSER, in LIKE miles) has cost a minimum of $800. MORE, for scheduled/ UN scheduled maintenance than the Jetta DIESEL.
I was also surprised to discover, the labor portion for the TB/WP change is/was app 2 times longer than the Jetta TDI's. Procedurally it is a lot more lengthy (not more complicated) as there seemed to be many more fasteners/parts that had to be R/R'd. However in the process of providing a competitive bid, this is actually the same price as the VW Jetta TDI. Even as VW has many more parts that are required to be replaced.
One teaser: I wonder how many folks who buy "economy" seemingly "appliance" cars like this, really know or probably more importantly, CARE about some of its technical aspects? After a while, the technician started lobbing HORROR stories @ me.
There are a few more back stories for those more tech inclined. :shades:
You must admit, if you are being honest, that your case is an EXCEPTION to the Honda versus VW experience that most people have.
In almost every owner-inspired survey, Hondas in general have a higher reliability factor than VW.
The TDIs are "more reliable" perhaps in areas where the "engine" is the area of comparison. Everyone knows diesel engines are built to last - they have stronger components, they have to support higher compression ratios, etc. It's a "by design" thing.
But if you consider "non engine-related" components, almost NO Jettas are scoring higher than Civics.
Your point is made; but don't compare apples to oranges trying to make your point.
I do not think either or both is/are the exception/s. The only thing common to both might be our ownership and set of drivers, etc. Now I grant you that what might be AN/THE exception is THAT combination of vehicles owned. So most folks who own a Honda (Civic), probably do NOT own a TDI (Jetta in my case) : and vice versa.
I think I was pretty clear in saying that from the start. So, ... I make no apologies. The snap shots are snap shots. It is really one balance sheet against another, doing LIKE work: 110,000 120,000 miles to 110,00 120,000 miles. From a cost point of view, I am actually BIASED in FAVOR of the Civic doing BETTER than the TDI !!?? Does that make any sense? AGAIN, please understand that I am pleased as punch about the Civic.
If anything, the Jetta TDI "apples to apples" comparison is the Toyota Camry Hybrid. As such it (also) beats its direct competitor.
I would definitely have bought it again. There was no acceptable other option at the time (June 2006).
If I were buying TODAY? Hmmmmmm. I love the EV options right now. I drove the Leaf during their "World Tour" and the kids an I loved it.
If I could lease a Leaf for $350 (about what my TCH is costing me per month) I might be very tempted
I could rent a car twice a year for my vacations.
But the Volt has no mileage limitations, so I wouldn't have to rent cars. Overall, a Volt would cost me less to own per year than a Leaf.
There is no diesel I would buy right now, because my mileage is about 90% City driving. That's why I would LOVE to have the option to buy a diesel hybrid - I could get the benefit of electric drive in town and the benefit of diesel mileage on the highway.
My goal is to keep the TCH until June 2012 and see what happens then.
Basically for my mileage, (given your 350 per mo) cost per mile ownership would be .21 cents.
For me, it is another reason for longer term ownership of a gasser but ultimately (on topic) the diesel. Cost of depreciation/owership for the Civic is slighly higher per mile driven (.052 cents vs .05 cents). I ultimately would consider selling either/both when the cost per mile drive depreciation is lower (hits .03 to .025 cents per mile driven). Fuel mileage is 37% better and operations costs cheaper even as the Jetta diesel weighs 400 to 500#'s more.
You have lofty aspirations for the life of your VW and I hope your dreams come true. all of my experience (considerable) with VW products has been anything but stellar!
200,000 miles is just around the corner for both/either: 43k 83k respectively. My friend, that is the sound of one hand clapping ??!!! But thank you for the half wish The lead in to this thread is the 120,000 miles TB/WP etc to a Civic gasser. I am planning on getting the next done @ 250,000 miles. In fact my goal for the Civic is 4 TB/WP cycles !!! I already know the (GASSER) Civic is going to cost WAY more. My SWAG is a min of (800 x 4) $3,200. (the greater operating cost/s we have gone over)
Thank you. I am sure those mileages are WAY past what the oems really wish for. The upside if the odds can be over come is indirect marketing for the survivior oem.
Evidently Honda (the oem) ALSO expects the head gasket to last longer than 200,000 miles. (as witnessed by the TB/WP replacement cycle). You really do not want to have the innards ordered about on a working surface too many times.
And correct you are about the timing belt. The real issues are now WHEN the part (chain drive) will fail. I am fairly certain they did NOT make the engine NON interference ( from interference) when they made the conversion from belt to chain. So if one goes to the "upper" mileages, then at some point, one has to do/get an inspection and/or educated guess on if and when to change the chain. Of course, it is almost a total non issue if the engine IS non interference. It is also likely the cost to R/R th chain will be higher and or exceeds that of TB/WP replacement. So another issue: did the water pump replacement cycle change also, i.e., can it run say 2 cycles of the (old cycles) or 220k to 250k miles? Third issue is if you have to replace the water pump at a similar cycle then it is likely to cost the SAME.
Timing chains rarely fail so that is a non issue unless we are talking about some car with 500,000 miles and by that point, who cares? You would have warning because a failing timing chain would make a lot of noise. I have NEVER heard of one needing to be replaced.
As far as the water pumps, on cars with timing belts it is reccommended that the pump be replaced at the time the timing belt is since it's exposed and easy to change. I took a look at a 150,000 mile water pump off an Accord once and it looked nad felt about the same as the new one that was installed.
As far as head gaskets, on Hondas they typically last the life of the engine but they CAN fail and were I the owner of a 200K Honda I certainly wouldn't feel that I had somehow been wronged if my head gasket were to fail. Would you?
Anymore if you are a fan of "a brand" even water pumps have their nuances.
On the subject of head gaskets, yes there was a time in my car ownership life where I would have toughed it out and just say luck of the draw. That was a time in the "old school" mentality. One example would be: once upon a time expecting 20,000 miles from shocks was PUSHING IT! Now, a head gasket failing @ 200,000 miles, .... that would put a serious dent in my notion of a brands reliability and durability, that is for sure.
Again not to get even more TMI than ALREADY tmi, but I think it would be easy to conclude from my "experiences," that (gasser) Toyota AND Honda are ANYTHING BUT "plug and play (old school) MAYTAG" appliances, aka economy cars.
These (oem required GASSER) tune UP cycles have actually verfied how I cared for it and also gave me strong hints as to what I can actually delay. AND NOT !!
(the usual warnings: don't try this at home)
Onward and upward to the next cycle !! (250,000 miles)
Now as a nexus to "DIESEL"s there is literally a small laundry list of things that do NOT have to be done by virtue of the diesel differences aka _$'s cheaper.
Granted. It is no longer 1965 when cars were lucky to go 100,000 miles without a major engine overhaul including a rebore etc.
However, it almost sounds like you expect cars to last forever. If you thin k it's unreasnoble to expect a head gasket to fail after a whopping 200,000 miles then we really don't have anything else to talk about.
I jus think you have set unrealistic expectations for the lifetime of a diesel especially in a Volkswagen product.
There are a few assumptions. One germane assumption: almost ANY car (gasser or diesel ) is made and engineered to go a minimum of 100,000 to 150,000 miles.
Then, ... various recommendations are called for. (Hopefully I have described a few in past posts) After that it is just cycle repetition.
No, not at all, forever might be an exageration.
Technically, Honda says a TB/WP is recommended @ 110,000 miles, so 4 cycles are 440,000 miles. In real world expectation/s, (since I did the TB/WP @ app 120 k) 480,000 miles. It is easy to infer that Honda wants between 110,000 miles and 120,000 miles to be the "major" tune up interval. Similarly for the TDI. There are "fudge" factors.
This is almost kept better than a state secret, but the design life for a (VW) TDI used in the 03 Jetta is 25,000 hours @ 80% load. ( 1.9/2.0 TDI has generator applications)
The side bar here is Honda is muter than mute on this subject, even as both oem's do generator applications.
Passenger car operation is no where NEAR 80% load. So given the average mph of between 40-50 mph, 1 M to 1.25 M miles.
You would probably point out there are literally a plethora of things that get in the way. Indeed, I would not disagree. My job is to neutralize as many as possible. However the job is not as onerous as it might look in print.
If you thin k it's unreasnoble to expect a head gasket to fail after a whopping 200,000 miles then we really don't have anything else to talk about.
I bought a brand new Subaru in 1973. One head gasket failed at 3000 miles. The Anchorage dealer was behind 9 weeks on warranty work so I had to have it done out of pocket, including parts. Within a week of replacing the one side the other went out. Needless to say I would not even think about Subaru for 20 years. It was also horrible in snow over 3 inches deep.
Indeed I would label neither example an "economy" car. (Subaru or that 02 Civic I posted earlier about) What is ECONOMICAL about a $1200 to $1500 head gasket job that should be ZERO? Like you (about the Subaru) it is a major reason I have not bought a Toyota Camry (4 cylinder especially) in 26 years. In a lot of ways, I was nervous about the 04 Civic and its 4 cylinder.
What am I missing here? One more time....Civics haven't used timing belts since 2005 so why keep bringing this up?? Accords last used timing belts in 2001 !!.
Well for sure if one is going to buy a new car every year or don't go much beyond 100,000 miles, most to all this discussion is pretty useless. Heck I know one year old Porsche owners who want to sell their machines because a 10 qt oil change is due. More on point you seem genuine upset, since 2005 they went to the timing chain.
The discussion is really aimed to some of the averages. So for example, the average age of the vehicle fleet is app 9 to 9.5 years. The miles for the AVERAGE US driver is 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year. So as you can see, we are talking about a range of 108,000 miles to 142,500 miles. So 7 MY's have pasted since 2004 on the Honda Civic. The average miles can range between 84,000 to 105,000 miles.
So part of this discussion is the longevity of the diesel. As a comparison with the right types of care with no manufacturers durability issues; gassers can also go the distance, albeit more costly; even as you point out that 200k mileage expectation for a (GASSER) head gasket issue might be unreasonable.
Yes, as I had been alluding to, which you also confirm (actually me but you concur) that some of the realities vs illusions are not what one actually thinks.
Diesel engines also use head gaskets that can fail too. So can other parts that can be expensive to fix and a lot of shops won't even work on diesels.
I don't question there may be some advantages but to me, there really are no clear cut advantages especially with diesel fuel now selling for more than gasoline.
And, you're right. the majority of people don't drive that much or tire of their cars well before their normal life span.
I have known this for a while, but am getting a real world/ time reminder: but really you have to be VERY careful even with a Honda Civic, something considered an "appliance", to whom and which shop/shops you bring it to.
..."Oil prices would have to rise from less than $100 a barrel now to between $171 and $254 to make the Volt as economical, even after factoring in thousands of dollars in government incentives. "...
Sorry for the delay. Re: the dealer, sorry but I really don't remember which one it was. At that time I was going back and forth from Arkansas to the Florida panhandle and/or Southern Alabama. I think I had the service (100,000miles) done when I was in Arkansas, but I know I had several VW dealers from Arkansas to Florida try to resolve the problems during that time frame, including a few specialized diesel pump "specialists" that were sure they could fix it. After several months and $$$$$ more than I could afford, I sold it, told the guy that bought it what-all was involved and he wanted it anyway. So he got it. I really loved that little rabbit anyway up to that point. van
Well for sure one has to deal with a head gasket failure TDI/gasser. I have heard of FEW head gasket failures on TDI's. For me it was instructive to see a gasser head gasket failure laid out on work tables.
Sans the head gasket failure. Like for like miles, the GASSER ( Civic) is working out to be much more costly than the TDI on the " OEM's scheduled maintenance " basis. I also am having more "unscheduled" (Civic) issues than the VW.
So like I said on a comparison basis the illusions do not fit the realities and vice versa. I also have no issues about gasser owners paying more to upkeep and operate their gassers.
I also know that there are not many folks who own (pretty close to like for like gassers AND TDI's) SIDE by SIDE. You have probably read the post where I have been accused of being biased in FAVOR of diesel/s. But indeed I am actually biased in favor of gassers. It is that comparatively the TDI has cut the mustard better than the gasser.
And my question at this second is what the hell is wrong (or something you need to apologize for) with being biased toward diesels? The vast majority of the population in the USA is biased toward gassers. Are we sending people to the stake for that??? I am biased in favor of diesels but two of my three vehicles are gassers.
Comments
On another subject, relating to diesel hybrids, Juice over in another thread mentioned a potential problem for this application due to lots of start/stop cycles. Cause for concern?
ateixeira, "Car Commercials The good, the bad, and the annoying!" #4266, 8 Mar 2011 1:04 pm
I have read in passing the diesels (non hybrid combo) on the European market have the on/off option and so far it is going just fine.
TMI= too much information. = NRDA (no real diesel application) :P
TDI= turbo diesel injection.
of late you see a lot of CR (fuel ) injection
CR= common rail
(Will it sell in Peoria?)
The problem with acronyms nowadays is there are just too many. And they are increasing in numbers every year, to the point that there is overlap.
There should be a page that has all the possible ones (related to everything automotive only) all in one place so a person doesn't have to constantly Google them.
Sam
I would like to find a really clean low mileage and cared for 2006 Jetta or Golf Wagon. I guess if I was being even more honest, I would prefer the pre TDI engine. It was slower, not that dirty because it was still very very efficient and the turbo models had enough torque to handle hills, loads, passing and A/C. There was never any need for anything more, IMHO.
Unfortunately though, even if a person were to find one of those old ones preserved away in a dry barn, the new fuel causes the pumps to start leaking by destroying seals.
Sam
There is also no doubt of your observation, the complexity over the complexity has become more... complex. But that is also true for gassers. It also stair steps for hybrids and plug ins.
The goal is (03 TDI) a minimum of 500,000 miles. So far (157,000 miles) the only real issues have been unscheduled maintenance of a mal functioning coolant sensor masquerading as a possible bad thermostat (a common issue it seems) for an $18.00 part and hour of labor. I do run 25,000 miles OCI's oil change intervals. The last one was @ 30,700 miles. It runs like the proverbial top. So in that sense, so far it has been Dr Jekyll.
Now I happen to run a 04 Civic side by side. I think it is fair to say Honda has a over all well deserved excellent reputation. I have to tell you that while I am not in the LEAST dissatified with it, it does have many (and I mean many) more nit picky issues than the VW has ever had . (like miles of course) The VW quality over all is literally heads and shoulders above the Honda.
When I asked about HPFP issues, the dealership I was at last week said there is no HPFP since 2009. I couldn't believe my ears. When he saw my expression, he then said well there is but blah blah and I did not follow his explanation. Except for that, I was most impressed with the dealership. They have an open door policy in the shop at all times. That is very rare nowadays. I asked the same question at a GM dealer a few days later and their response was more of a relenting squirm. He said they would let you in the shop, but then escort you back out so the mechanic could work. He will never know how poorly that sat with me and had me thinking VW even if I bought the gas. I don't believe in being in the way or bombarding the mech with questions, but I do like the idea of being able to see the level of care and competence when they are working on my wheels. I don't expect him to be as detailed as I am, but I appreciate things like seeing a guy untorque a rocker cover or water pump housing a little at a time in the same reverse sequence as installing it and using a torque wrench on my rims. Things like that.
Sam
I am a bit conflicted in that I am looking forward to putting in bigger injectors. (.205 vs .184 stock) adding 25 hp and 40# ft. @ 300,000 + miles a TB/WP change will also be due.
I might have spoken 83,000 mile too early about the Honda Civic. I just walked back from the local independent Honda vendor that I use. I brought the 04 Civic in for a tire rotation, automatic transmission fluid change and get a TB/WP change estimate, BUT really to check brake pads and rotors, as Mr Hyde only comes out for my wife for the brake issue. He has a 200k + miles 2002 Civic in for a BLOWN headgasket. The mechanic mentioned in passing that will give $500 in change to a 2,000 bill. I just hope the 04 do not catch what the 02 had!!??
Sam
So while that may have well have happened, my take: other issues might be more likely.
Which begs the question, how many Americans know anything about passenger diesels?
I would say a lot more people know about hybrids than diesel cars. They have had a LOT more exposure in the media.
There are those that might ask what the H--- does this have to do with diesels? Since I have a Jetta TDI and Civic side by side, it is a comparison. I can tell you without getting to the point of TMI, the Civic (GASSER, in LIKE miles) has cost a minimum of $800. MORE, for scheduled/ UN scheduled maintenance than the Jetta DIESEL.
I was also surprised to discover, the labor portion for the TB/WP change is/was app 2 times longer than the Jetta TDI's. Procedurally it is a lot more lengthy (not more complicated) as there seemed to be many more fasteners/parts that had to be R/R'd. However in the process of providing a competitive bid, this is actually the same price as the VW Jetta TDI. Even as VW has many more parts that are required to be replaced.
One teaser: I wonder how many folks who buy "economy" seemingly "appliance" cars like this, really know or probably more importantly, CARE about some of its technical aspects? After a while, the technician started lobbing HORROR stories @ me.
There are a few more back stories for those more tech inclined. :shades:
In almost every owner-inspired survey, Hondas in general have a higher reliability factor than VW.
The TDIs are "more reliable" perhaps in areas where the "engine" is the area of comparison. Everyone knows diesel engines are built to last - they have stronger components, they have to support higher compression ratios, etc. It's a "by design" thing.
But if you consider "non engine-related" components, almost NO Jettas are scoring higher than Civics.
Your point is made; but don't compare apples to oranges trying to make your point.
I think I was pretty clear in saying that from the start. So, ... I make no apologies. The snap shots are snap shots. It is really one balance sheet against another, doing LIKE work: 110,000 120,000 miles to 110,00 120,000 miles. From a cost point of view, I am actually BIASED in FAVOR of the Civic doing BETTER than the TDI !!?? Does that make any sense? AGAIN, please understand that I am pleased as punch about the Civic.
If anything, the Jetta TDI "apples to apples" comparison is the Toyota Camry Hybrid. As such it (also) beats its direct competitor.
As owner of a TCH, I can honestly say:
In MPG and longevity the TDI wins hands down.
Every other category? Not sure it's a win for the TDI in any others.
Well I think I am being careful in commenting on two that I actually LIVE with AND for like miles!!??
Question? Knowing what you know now, would you buy another Camry hybrid? If not, why not?
If I were buying TODAY? Hmmmmmm. I love the EV options right now. I drove the Leaf during their "World Tour" and the kids an I loved it.
If I could lease a Leaf for $350 (about what my TCH is costing me per month) I might be very tempted
I could rent a car twice a year for my vacations.
But the Volt has no mileage limitations, so I wouldn't have to rent cars. Overall, a Volt would cost me less to own per year than a Leaf.
There is no diesel I would buy right now, because my mileage is about 90% City driving. That's why I would LOVE to have the option to buy a diesel hybrid - I could get the benefit of electric drive in town and the benefit of diesel mileage on the highway.
My goal is to keep the TCH until June 2012 and see what happens then.
For me, it is another reason for longer term ownership of a gasser but ultimately (on topic) the diesel. Cost of depreciation/owership for the Civic is slighly higher per mile driven (.052 cents vs .05 cents). I ultimately would consider selling either/both when the cost per mile drive depreciation is lower (hits .03 to .025 cents per mile driven). Fuel mileage is 37% better and operations costs cheaper even as the Jetta diesel weighs 400 to 500#'s more.
You have lofty aspirations for the life of your VW and I hope your dreams come true. all of my experience (considerable) with VW products has been anything but stellar!
I do wish you well!
Yeah, like 200,000 miles!!
How long do you expect a head gasket to last?
Oh, and Civics haven't used timing belts since 2005 so that's an expense that no longer applies to the newer models.
Evidently Honda (the oem) ALSO expects the head gasket to last longer than 200,000 miles. (as witnessed by the TB/WP replacement cycle). You really do not want to have the innards ordered about on a working surface too many times.
And correct you are about the timing belt. The real issues are now WHEN the part (chain drive) will fail. I am fairly certain they did NOT make the engine NON interference ( from interference) when they made the conversion from belt to chain. So if one goes to the "upper" mileages, then at some point, one has to do/get an inspection and/or educated guess on if and when to change the chain. Of course, it is almost a total non issue if the engine IS non interference. It is also likely the cost to R/R th chain will be higher and or exceeds that of TB/WP replacement. So another issue: did the water pump replacement cycle change also, i.e., can it run say 2 cycles of the (old cycles) or 220k to 250k miles? Third issue is if you have to replace the water pump at a similar cycle then it is likely to cost the SAME.
As far as the water pumps, on cars with timing belts it is reccommended that the pump be replaced at the time the timing belt is since it's exposed and easy to change. I took a look at a 150,000 mile water pump off an Accord once and it looked nad felt about the same as the new one that was installed.
As far as head gaskets, on Hondas they typically last the life of the engine but they CAN fail and were I the owner of a 200K Honda I certainly wouldn't feel that I had somehow been wronged if my head gasket were to fail. Would you?
On the subject of head gaskets, yes there was a time in my car ownership life where I would have toughed it out and just say luck of the draw. That was a time in the "old school" mentality. One example would be: once upon a time expecting 20,000 miles from shocks was PUSHING IT! Now, a head gasket failing @ 200,000 miles, .... that would put a serious dent in my notion of a brands reliability and durability, that is for sure.
These (oem required GASSER) tune UP cycles have actually verfied how I cared for it and also gave me strong hints as to what I can actually delay.
(the usual warnings: don't try this at home)
Onward and upward to the next cycle !! (250,000 miles)
Now as a nexus to "DIESEL"s there is literally a small laundry list of things that do NOT have to be done by virtue of the diesel differences aka _$'s cheaper.
However, it almost sounds like you expect cars to last forever. If you thin k it's unreasnoble to expect a head gasket to fail after a whopping 200,000 miles then we really don't have anything else to talk about.
I jus think you have set unrealistic expectations for the lifetime of a diesel especially in a Volkswagen product.
But, I suppose time will tell?
Then, ... various recommendations are called for. (Hopefully I have described a few in past posts) After that it is just cycle repetition.
No, not at all, forever might be an exageration.
Technically, Honda says a TB/WP is recommended @ 110,000 miles, so 4 cycles are 440,000 miles. In real world expectation/s, (since I did the TB/WP @ app 120 k) 480,000 miles. It is easy to infer that Honda wants between 110,000 miles and 120,000 miles to be the "major" tune up interval. Similarly for the TDI. There are "fudge" factors.
This is almost kept better than a state secret, but the design life for a (VW) TDI used in the 03 Jetta is 25,000 hours @ 80% load. ( 1.9/2.0 TDI has generator applications)
The side bar here is Honda is muter than mute on this subject, even as both oem's do generator applications.
Passenger car operation is no where NEAR 80% load. So given the average mph of between 40-50 mph, 1 M to 1.25 M miles.
You would probably point out there are literally a plethora of things that get in the way. Indeed, I would not disagree. My job is to neutralize as many as possible. However the job is not as onerous as it might look in print.
I bought a brand new Subaru in 1973. One head gasket failed at 3000 miles. The Anchorage dealer was behind 9 weeks on warranty work so I had to have it done out of pocket, including parts. Within a week of replacing the one side the other went out. Needless to say I would not even think about Subaru for 20 years. It was also horrible in snow over 3 inches deep.
The discussion is really aimed to some of the averages. So for example, the average age of the vehicle fleet is app 9 to 9.5 years. The miles for the AVERAGE US driver is 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year. So as you can see, we are talking about a range of 108,000 miles to 142,500 miles. So 7 MY's have pasted since 2004 on the Honda Civic. The average miles can range between 84,000 to 105,000 miles.
So part of this discussion is the longevity of the diesel. As a comparison with the right types of care with no manufacturers durability issues; gassers can also go the distance, albeit more costly; even as you point out that 200k mileage expectation for a (GASSER) head gasket issue might be unreasonable.
I don't question there may be some advantages but to me, there really are no clear cut advantages especially with diesel fuel now selling for more than gasoline.
And, you're right. the majority of people don't drive that much or tire of their cars well before their normal life span.
"CALIFORNIA utility rates might make electric cars a costly choice" Tiffany Hsu LA Times
COSTLIER
..."Oil prices would have to rise from less than $100 a barrel now to between $171 and $254 to make the Volt as economical, even after factoring in thousands of dollars in government incentives. "...
van
Sans the head gasket failure. Like for like miles, the GASSER ( Civic) is working out to be much more costly than the TDI on the " OEM's scheduled maintenance " basis. I also am having more "unscheduled" (Civic) issues than the VW.
So like I said on a comparison basis the illusions do not fit the realities and vice versa. I also have no issues about gasser owners paying more to upkeep and operate their gassers.
I also know that there are not many folks who own (pretty close to like for like gassers AND TDI's) SIDE by SIDE. You have probably read the post where I have been accused of being biased in FAVOR of diesel/s. But indeed I am actually biased in favor of gassers. It is that comparatively the TDI has cut the mustard better than the gasser.