In reality it is hard to find an absolute apples to apples hybrid diesel comparo. That will soon be broken when the VW Touareg hybrid shows up in the USA. We shall see if the hybrid version can compete with a comparable diesel. The EPA rates the Touareg hybrid lower than the diesel for mileage. The starting price of the hybrid is a cool $13,000 higher than the diesel. The hybrid version requires premium and has a 100 mile shorter range with the same size gas tank. Being able to go 739+ miles on a tank of diesel is a real plus for me. If the EPA rated it at 28 MPG on the road I would imagine 35 MPG is more than doable. Owners are reporting 25-27 MPG overall. Not bad for a vehicle that is rated to tow 7700 lbs. No hybrid can compare to that.
Well, that's merely a case of "fitting different needs."
If a person needs to TOW 7700 lbs, and wants to deal with a diesel engine, and wants to pay 13K less, then the diesel version fits them.
If a person wants the absolute cleanest emission version of the Toureg, and/or is a hybrid aficionado, and has an extra $13K laying around, then the hybrid is for them. :shades:
P.S. I got 621 miles on my best TCH tank.....just sayin'.......
Well, let's say you are driving an E-class. It needs premium, so you'll be paying like $4.10 then. The 15 cents more is a lot less than the gained efficiency.
Message 2197 compared the civic to TDI, but then the Prius and TDI are more comparable based on interior dimensions, purchase price and MPG. So I didn't ignore message 2197, but it's not applicable.
Also, when looking at costs over 150,000 miles, you have to also look at potential repair costs, and historically VW has been below Ford, Honda & Toyota in that respect. You can't just add up all the cost for recommended maintenance and gas and think that will be the only costs for a car.
Also, I've only owned a prius (used '07) since last summer, so I'm not a "prius lover." I looked at other options and the TDI was on my list but the reliability issues kept me away from VW. Plus the fact that my highway/suburb driving was 50/50 mix and my real-world MPG is close to 50 without any fancy driving habits. If I lived in Europe I'd probably be driving a diesel right now.
I reported the ACTUAL costs. In my case, IF I had to bet (actually I have made TWO bets already, by virtual of owning both) I would say from the numbers, statistics, feeling and etc, the Civic will almost far and away be more costly at "LIKE" miles.
Indeed, if the numbers presented some how are not graphic or folks don't SEE the picture, let me say: I wish the CIVIC was as CHEAP to run (per mile driven) as the DIESEL.
Yes, I do know the Civic is one of the better "economy" cars.
Indeed the formula's really haven't changed much. So do what is more EXPENSIVE!!??
Corner store prices
4.33 ULSD,
RUG 4.03,
PUG 4.23
Just did a Honda Civic fill: 38 mpg/4.03= .1060526 cents per mile driven Just did a 03 Jetta TDI fill: 49/4.33= .0883673 cents per mile driven
In terms of the discussion I only hope to add to it as one point of view (actually several) as there truly is/are a lot of variance/s.
You make a good lead in point in your last sentence/paragraph. One of the (unintended ???!!!) consequences: are replacement parts on longer held vehicles tend to be a better alternative than more LATE model cars to GETTING a more late model car because one is "SCARED". In terms of (scheduled) cycles it becomes pretty easy to manage. I think it is the doubt and fear of the UN scheduled maintenance is really what causes the gaszzzzzz.
are replacement parts on longer held vehicles tend to be a better alternative
I don't think so. Leaving aside "parts is parts", I don't think engineering is going backwards. There may be a lot of pressure on suppliers to make parts cheaper, but there are still warranty costs associated with parts, and even if the manufacturer slides them on to the supplier, it still costs them and the dealers time and hassle dealing with a bad stock of parts. Not to mention damage to reputation.
And don't blast out the Beach Boys and jinx me - going to drive the old van down to Chattanooga this weekend (weather permitting :shades: ).
All one has to do is run the numbers. Anyone can "prove/dis" the case true or false in their case/s. In my 6 cases, I really have to say it has been true in EVERY case. 100% is hard to achieve unless there was NOT a consistent theme going on.
Sampler. I just bought front and rear shocks (made for the oem by a recognizable vendor) for 188. shipped. So really it is a oem part made by the vendor under its own BRANDING. I can go to the oe Toyota dealer parts counter and they will tell me, yada,yada, they are HARD to get but it will only set me back $650. I actually am early for the change; at 189,000 miles, the oems are still just fine. I might just suck it up and put it on at 250,000 miles unless any spring a leak or tire wear becomes weird. This sample is going on 18 years old.
So, please explain to me again WHY anyone would want one?
I just filled my PU truck at Shell. RUG was $4.07 and ULSD was $4.25 Premium was $4.27. All the vehicles I would consider today use Premium in their gas version. So buying the diesel version would be a no brainer. Not to mention the superior driving characteristics of diesel vs gas and the much better range.
I don't understand why anyone would buy a gas powered vehicle if there was a diesel option. If Honda would get their act together with their diesel engine and put it in the Pilot I would be a potential customer.
I guess we just feel totally opposite from one another.
Honda doesn't think enough people share your feelings so they don't make diesels. If diesel were priced where it should be as compared to gas, that would probably change.
Car manufactures build cars that they think they can sell lots of.
Well yes. It is just folks that wanting diesel Honda's really do not have an American (Honda) choice.
I would agree that AMERICAN Honda really (probably) doesn't feel it is worth the cost to bring their premier iCTDI diesel to the American market, let alone across the model lines. To a few of us that follow this thread, the ML would benefit almost across the board. I also realize that Honda would also have to severely bit the bullet and spend more for better (beefier) transmissions. Just this alone is HUGE. It also would escalate: for example to better tuned suspension systems. I also have to applaud Honda for doing Civics in the nat gas, hybrid, gas, variants. They SURELY did not sell the hybrid and nat gas variants with ANY volume, let alone at some level of cost effectiveness. I also remember in 2004, they would not come off the hybrid price. The GASSER (Civic) was app 7 to 8k LESS. I am sure the nat gas variant is even more pricey.
Again this is just a swag, but I think Honda got burnt a few too many times. It also does not want to go through the TRASHING Toyota did for being a "good citizen."
On the VW I was hymming and hawing @ a $326.00 ? premium for the 1.9 TDI diesel over 1.8 T VW Jetta's. :confuse:
It's good your're able to average 49mpg in your TDI, but aJetta TDI will cost initially a lot more than a Civic. Every personal case is different.
If I owned a old Toyota Corolla that gave me lots of problems and a old Ford Escort that gave me zero problems, while in my personal case the Escort was more reliable that doesn't change the fact that overall the Corolla was more reliable...just not in my personal case.
If you drove 1000 miles the cost would be: 49mpg tdi $ 88.37 38mpg civic $106.05 51mpg prius $ 79.02
And if you drove a Moped it would cost about $33. I find the comparison between any of the VW TDIs and the Prius impossible to equate. There is no comparison out on the highway or even in town. The Prius has substandard handling, ride, braking and noise levels. The Civic if as bad as the 2010 Accord I spent two weeks driving not worth considering.
To me driving a Prius is barely one step up from a Moped. Take a New Jetta TDI out for a drive in the country with lots of winding roads. You will never be satisfied with a Prius again. You will happily pay the slight difference in fuel cost. And when we get flooded with cheap GTL in this country you will be so happy to have the most economical car available.
Many People would be happy getting 120-200 MPG. Best comparo to the Prius.
Actually Civic Hybrids sell pretty well. When gas prices spike the demand go's nuts. People overreact and don't stop to realize that they would have to drive 150,000 miles or more to break even.
The natural gas Civics don't sell at all, at least in my neck of the woods.
Our store got stuck with one and for all I know, they still have it.
Other than the "artificial" mpg comparison between the Prius and the VW Jetta TDI, the Prius is really a more expensive Toyota Corolla for commuting. As such, I would still get the Corolla (equivalent CIVIC in my case). Neither Prius nor Corolla (Civic, etc) are in the same leaque as a VW Jetta TDI.
Not to question you but the numbers would really help to visualize. Right now RUG prices are "spiking", yet (myswag) Civic Hybrids are not "FLYING" off the lots. Indeed (not to be contrary) but I read in passing they closed the (Japanese) hybrid production line due to low sales volume !? (before the earthquake and tsunami, of course)
I think your larger point is very valid. IF all we do is do a normal commute there is scant need nor compelling reason to "SWITCH". I might be a case in point. There is really no sense in selling the Civic for a diesel unless that (probably used diesel) is cheaper. Then it only made sense if the numbers penciled out. Of course there is a HUGE variance in "normal". However if one has a "clean slate", so to speak to me it really makes no sense to have a gasser when there is a diesel (like model).
So for example, the host posted that I am one of the few examples he knows that does 20k a year let alone any one who does more!?.
You have to remember I lived the life for 14 years before I retired in May so I do kinda know what I'm talking about and I'm still in fairly constant contact with several of my co workers.
That having been said....Different cars sell better in different parts of the country. Here in Seattle we have a lot of (being nice here) people who like to make a statement about their commitment to the earth.
Hybrids always sold in spurts it seemed and when gas hits 3.50 plus for a gallon it seems every other phone call is about a hybrid.
Honda tried selling Accord V-6 hybrids and they were a dismal flop for several reasons.
We also sold a lot of fleet cars to goverment agencies and they too, wanted to make a statement by buying hybrids.
I think he raised a fairly good point(s) actually. They went beyond just handling corners. Even if the only two turns you make on your commute, is out of your driveway and into your place of work, most would appreciate the more peaceful interior of the TDI. Or its ability to accelerate with aggression if wanted, especially if driving for a full car load. And I could go on and on but it is not my intention to pummel you.
Curve handling is "fun" but not a requirement for a car.
I was in the (South Lake Tahoe, CA, 6,225 ft) mountains all last week, app 7,500 ft. marked on some roads. In a very real sense, the VW Jetta TDI really excels in the higher altitudes. There is almost the FULL gambit of roads and road conditions and the conditions and road conditions can change in literally a FLASH. It is WAY more fun in the Jetta TDI than the Civic gasser.
Perhaps I have not outgrown it. If it is a choice between a car that handles well and not (all things being equal) I rather have a HANDLING car ! Yes, the South Lake Tahoe Mountains CAN be a roller coast.
Gary, your affinity for "winding country roads" is to be proud of.
If I was so unfortunate as to live in a city where all the streets are run North /South or East/West and no hills then I would probably be satisfied with a skate board or bicycle. Or even ride the bus. The road I drive is 2.5 mile to town it is just such a windy road that would be best driven with a Porsche. My wife says no to that. So a German engineered car from VW with a diesel engine would be a good compromise.
I think I need to elaborate in order to ensure we are on the same page if we are going to disagree. From what you have said, I have gotten the impression that you correlate handling with speed, and to be fair that is not entirely the case. An easy example anyone can get their head around would be to drive a predetermined 20 mile stretch of road with many turns of varying angularity at a very sedate speed. Can we agree that Deals Gap in the Rocky Mountains of the TN and NC border would be a good test road? Emphasis on sedate in order to respect your wanting to enjoy a slower pace than in your clubbing years. We will use 2 non-biased vehicles so that they don't resemble either a Prius or the TDI. I will assume you would be ok with 2 minivans as an example? Take two, any brand you wish, new or used it makes no difference other than if both are new it is a more fair test> Now let's get the family and dog and gear and load them up identically. On one we will leave it box stock OEM. On the other we will remove both the shock absorbers front and rear, but also the anti-sway bars which are used to help resist body roll. We will also remove half of the sound insulation so that you can really get a back to nature feel for the road. Now we will drive a very leisurely sedate drive through that beautiful area. At the risk of irritating some of the local Miata and motorbike riders, lets not go above 20 mph anywhere and some corners we will only go about 5 mph. So no one could accuse us of racing around or practicing anywhere near any unsafe speeds on that route. So which vehicle do you think would be the least stressful to drive? I suggest that in the new stocker you and your family would arrived at the other end of that short 20 mile drive refreshed and all smiles at what a nice drive it was. Now that, compared to the exhausted, brain-frazzled mess you would be trying to control the other identical van with some crucial bits removed.
Which one would be your choice to turn around and head back the other way on the same route?
Now granted, in my one example I have used the extreme measure of removing some crucial running gear bits that assist in the handling and driving dynamic and basic comfort level, but I did so only as an example that hopefully all could grasp that there are varying ways of suspending a vehicle. They all do much the same thing in that they help control the shock of bumps and isolate the occupants in a good way, support the vehicle's mass with confidence during maneuvers, help control unsprung weight, resist torque steer on FWD's, and brake the vehicle with assurance and predictability etc etc. The thing is though, even though they both might do the same thing, there are different ways of achieving that same goal and you don't have to be a racer or even just a spirited driver in order to appreciate these differences.
To continue the hills application, I just filled after the second trip up and back in the mountains. It filled for 48 mpg (455 miles/9.379 gal). I wonder what a Prius would have done.? I do know that if I drove the Prius like I did the TDI it would return far LESS than 48 mpg. If I drove the TDI like you have to do to get higher mileage in the Prius, I would have gotten even better mileage than 48 and certainly more than the Prius.
I found a few studies that show "handling" is NOT a prime or top 5 desire for MOST new car buyers.
I am sure it is not until they wallow into an accident that could have been avoided with a vehicle decently suspended. How many times have you had to swerve hard when some yokel turns left when you have the green light? Maybe not often. When it happens you need as good of a suspension as you can afford.
We know you don't leave the flat land of roaring Interstates, so windy roads are not an issue with you.
No bragging here. Evidently a lot of folks do not act on it, despite knowledge. Essentially I am looking for a number # difference that can be converted to a percentage difference for the same trip/work. I am swagging that mountain driving is way better in a TDI Jetta than a Prius. I certainly know it is over a Civic.
Essentially, I know the differences are far greater.
You can see it in the fuel economy.gov. A 2004 Prius had a 60 city/50 highway EPA rating. The average as reported is between 45 to 47.5 mpg. A 2003 TDI Jetta had a 42 city /49 EPA rating. The average reported is betwen 43 to 46.5 mpg. That is probably why a lot of Prius owners really don't want to do an A/B test, even as if they want to tell you that they can get better mpg than a diesel.
If my brain was sucked out of my head, Then I still would not switch to diesel fuel. It is a stinky, noisy, foul, choice for fuel. It still comes from the same place that gasoline comes from so what advantage could there be. The only other choice for an option should be solar. But the energy companies would have to figure out a way to make a continual profit from it. So I guess were just screwed.
If my brain was sucked out of my head, Then I still would not switch to diesel fuel.
I tell you what, you hold your head over a bucket of regular gas and I will hold my head over a bucket of diesel. We can see which of us passes out first. Gasoline is the odorless killer. And breathing gas exhasust is even more dangerous than exhaust from a diesel. CO (carbon monoxide) is much higher from gasoline. Something the EPA does not worry about it seems. Take the BMW 335D or X5D out for a spin and tell us what you think of diesel power.
There is absolutely nothing holding you and like minded folks back from offering your solar alternative to the market, at non profit or at a loss. We have a solar panel plant in the next city that got $935 M in direct Fed Subsidies. This is not to mention State, County and Local subsidies. It is not on track to make money any time soon, nor in the foreseeable future. President Obama even came by for photo and press release ops. You are not screwed at all.
Consumer Reports give the same low ratings, which is why I wouldn't buy a Jetta, especially for the long term. I don't want to deal with a problem vehicle regardless of MPG.
I'm sure some owners will be able to drive a million miles on their Jetta TDI with zero problems, but I'm not going to buy one based on a unique experience like that.
Compare this to a 2006 Prius getting 4-5 circles for Dependability and listed by JD Powers as "Most Dependable Compact Car"
So even if a Jetta or Golf TDI can get similar average MPG as a Prius (which is unlikely on average, maybe highway driving, but not overall avearage, especially considering diesel costs more), based on reliability and dependability data I still wouldn't want one.
Really I have no issues with either. Someone has to buy Prius'. They only hit 2 M units not too long ago and that is world wide and after what 10 years?
One should always go into ANY transaction, let alone the modern day equivalent of "horse trading" with that latin saying "Buyer BEWARE".
But then on the other hand it really makes you wonder why Toyota diesels do not sell well in Europe. Again, not that it matters here.
based on reliability and dependability data I still wouldn't want one.
I feel the same way about the Prius. When you consider lousy handling, noisy, rough riding to go along with the decent mileage, the reliability means little to me. I would not want one. I may as well take the bus and save a ton of money. At my age comfort, handling, safety, ease of getting in and out, trump mileage. Only a masochist would get in a Prius and try to break the Jetta TDI mileage record. Be sure and post when a Prius or any other vehicle breaks that record.
Together, the Taylors own nearly 40 world records for fuel economy, and this month they added to their tally by breaking the mileage record for driving the 48 contiguous United States. Their mark: 67.9 miles per gallon, achieved over 19 days and some 9,500 miles in a 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI.
Yeah I got burned wih A Toyota Camry. You name it, it had an issue. Now keep in mind MULTIPLE consumer magazines and publications gave it a GREAT rating. I did luck out in that since it DID (probably still does) have a great rating, I got top CASH dollar when I sold it. Again percentage wise it was a much greater loss/depreciation than the VW Jetta TDI. I was never so relieved to sell any one car !!???
The best I have ever got in a 03 TDI has been 62 mpg. I personally just don't like to do what has to be done to get 62 mpg and PLUS (go -5 to -10 below the speed limit, which I assume is 65 mph) . Road hypnosis is a greater issue during those times.
Since I have done this multiple times, I know it is not a flute. All I need do to get 59 mpg (road trip) is to go 75 mph with bursts of 80/85 mph, and mre importantly,.... stay awake.
I will consider the GY Fuel Savers, for the next set of tires. However the "crappy" oem tires are on track to to 100,000 miles. So it will not be for a while. The oem GY LSH's got 112,300 miles, before a got a little antsy to put on the new set. I had bought the new set 2/3 years too early and the 6 year shelf life for "rubber" was a ticking.
My co-worker has a fairly new 2011 Prius, and does not use hypermiling techniques, and is averaging about 57 MPG for his regular driving. Highest tank 60 and lowest 54.
Not many people in a city commute are getting 57 out of a TDI.
I am glad Prius is finally living up to its EPA ratings As you know and can verify, the 2004 Prius had EPA's of 60 C and 50 H. Essentially, it took them 7 model years to figure it out.
While I haven't put a 2004 or 2011 Prius in this commute (known destination A to , the ranges are as follows: 40-47 mpg- 09 TDI, 48-52 mpg-03 TDI, 38-42 mpg- 04 Civic. I was told by a friend that had a similar commute and with a 2004 Prius that cost him 29,000 at the time, he got 42-46 mpg. Again what it is in a 2011, I do not know.
Not that this matters much to a 2011 Prius owner, but the 105 ft#'s of torque (Edmunds.com specifications page) is almost totally underwhelming in comparison to 2009/2011 VW's TDI's of 236ft #'s. In fact the torque on a TDI is 224% greater! As a side bar this is one reason why I say the Toyota Camry Hybrid is really the competition to the Jetta TDI. Another is the mpg is close to the Jetta TDI's with Jetta's happening to be app 11% better. As a comparison a 1.2 L 3 cylinder TDI makes more torque than the Prius' 104 # ft and posts more like 75 mpg. Of course you are winding up the Prius like flogging a yelping dog to get it, @ 4,000 rpm. Max torque delivered for the TDI is @ 1,750 to 2,500 rpm.
If I had that commute, my current 21 mixed mpg would double with the Civic or your friend's Prius. I'd be so thrilled I wouldn't care if I gave away 10 mpg. :-)
Torque is nice. The van has 200 ft. pounds for those times I want to squeal away from the stop sign.
Comments
If a person needs to TOW 7700 lbs, and wants to deal with a diesel engine, and wants to pay 13K less, then the diesel version fits them.
If a person wants the absolute cleanest emission version of the Toureg, and/or is a hybrid aficionado, and has an extra $13K laying around, then the hybrid is for them. :shades:
P.S. I got 621 miles on my best TCH tank.....just sayin'.......
They were selling diesel for a whopping 4.25 a gallon.
So, please explain to me again WHY anyone would want one?
For some cars it works.
Also, when looking at costs over 150,000 miles, you have to also look at potential repair costs, and historically VW has been below Ford, Honda & Toyota in that respect. You can't just add up all the cost for recommended maintenance and gas and think that will be the only costs for a car.
Also, I've only owned a prius (used '07) since last summer, so I'm not a "prius lover." I looked at other options and the TDI was on my list but the reliability issues kept me away from VW. Plus the fact that my highway/suburb driving was 50/50 mix and my real-world MPG is close to 50 without any fancy driving habits. If I lived in Europe I'd probably be driving a diesel right now.
I'm sure I misunderstood you on THAT one!
Indeed, if the numbers presented some how are not graphic or folks don't SEE the picture, let me say: I wish the CIVIC was as CHEAP to run (per mile driven) as the DIESEL.
Yes, I do know the Civic is one of the better "economy" cars.
Indeed the formula's really haven't changed much. So do what is more EXPENSIVE!!??
Corner store prices
4.33 ULSD,
RUG 4.03,
PUG 4.23
Just did a Honda Civic fill: 38 mpg/4.03= .1060526 cents per mile driven
Just did a 03 Jetta TDI fill: 49/4.33= .0883673 cents per mile driven
Per mile driven, the Civic costs 20% more to run.
You make a good lead in point in your last sentence/paragraph. One of the (unintended ???!!!) consequences: are replacement parts on longer held vehicles tend to be a better alternative than more LATE model cars to GETTING a more late model car because one is "SCARED". In terms of (scheduled) cycles it becomes pretty easy to manage. I think it is the doubt and fear of the UN scheduled maintenance is really what causes the gaszzzzzz.
I don't think so. Leaving aside "parts is parts", I don't think engineering is going backwards. There may be a lot of pressure on suppliers to make parts cheaper, but there are still warranty costs associated with parts, and even if the manufacturer slides them on to the supplier, it still costs them and the dealers time and hassle dealing with a bad stock of parts. Not to mention damage to reputation.
And don't blast out the Beach Boys and jinx me - going to drive the old van down to Chattanooga this weekend (weather permitting :shades: ).
Sampler. I just bought front and rear shocks (made for the oem by a recognizable vendor) for 188. shipped. So really it is a oem part made by the vendor under its own BRANDING. I can go to the oe Toyota dealer parts counter and they will tell me, yada,yada, they are HARD to get but it will only set me back $650. I actually am early for the change; at 189,000 miles, the oems are still just fine. I might just suck it up and put it on at 250,000 miles unless any spring a leak or tire wear becomes weird. This sample is going on 18 years old.
I just filled my PU truck at Shell. RUG was $4.07 and ULSD was $4.25 Premium was $4.27. All the vehicles I would consider today use Premium in their gas version. So buying the diesel version would be a no brainer. Not to mention the superior driving characteristics of diesel vs gas and the much better range.
I don't understand why anyone would buy a gas powered vehicle if there was a diesel option. If Honda would get their act together with their diesel engine and put it in the Pilot I would be a potential customer.
Honda doesn't think enough people share your feelings so they don't make diesels. If diesel were priced where it should be as compared to gas, that would probably change.
Car manufactures build cars that they think they can sell lots of.
I would agree that AMERICAN Honda really (probably) doesn't feel it is worth the cost to bring their premier iCTDI diesel to the American market, let alone across the model lines. To a few of us that follow this thread, the ML would benefit almost across the board. I also realize that Honda would also have to severely bit the bullet and spend more for better (beefier) transmissions. Just this alone is HUGE. It also would escalate: for example to better tuned suspension systems. I also have to applaud Honda for doing Civics in the nat gas, hybrid, gas, variants. They SURELY did not sell the hybrid and nat gas variants with ANY volume, let alone at some level of cost effectiveness. I also remember in 2004, they would not come off the hybrid price. The GASSER (Civic) was app 7 to 8k LESS. I am sure the nat gas variant is even more pricey.
Again this is just a swag, but I think Honda got burnt a few too many times. It also does not want to go through the TRASHING Toyota did for being a "good citizen."
On the VW I was hymming and hawing @ a $326.00 ? premium for the 1.9 TDI diesel over 1.8 T VW Jetta's. :confuse:
49mpg tdi $ 88.37
38mpg civic $106.05
51mpg prius $ 79.02
From cars.com:
http://www.cars.com/go/compare/trimCompare.jsp?acodes=USC00VWC022B0,USC00HOC021E- - 0,USC00TOC161A0
Golf TDI/Civic/Prius
Cost: $22,760/$19,455/$22,800
MPG City: 30/26/51
Hwy: 41/34/48
It's good your're able to average 49mpg in your TDI, but aJetta TDI will cost initially a lot more than a Civic. Every personal case is different.
If I owned a old Toyota Corolla that gave me lots of problems and a old Ford Escort that gave me zero problems, while in my personal case the Escort was more reliable that doesn't change the fact that overall the Corolla was more reliable...just not in my personal case.
49mpg tdi $ 88.37
38mpg civic $106.05
51mpg prius $ 79.02
And if you drove a Moped it would cost about $33. I find the comparison between any of the VW TDIs and the Prius impossible to equate. There is no comparison out on the highway or even in town. The Prius has substandard handling, ride, braking and noise levels. The Civic if as bad as the 2010 Accord I spent two weeks driving not worth considering.
To me driving a Prius is barely one step up from a Moped. Take a New Jetta TDI out for a drive in the country with lots of winding roads. You will never be satisfied with a Prius again. You will happily pay the slight difference in fuel cost. And when we get flooded with cheap GTL in this country you will be so happy to have the most economical car available.
Many People would be happy getting 120-200 MPG. Best comparo to the Prius.
The natural gas Civics don't sell at all, at least in my neck of the woods.
Our store got stuck with one and for all I know, they still have it.
But c'mon - most people don't drive a road like that on their commute. Some do, but most do not.
Curve handling is "fun" but not a requirement for a car.
So for example, the host posted that I am one of the few examples he knows that does 20k a year let alone any one who does more!?.
That having been said....Different cars sell better in different parts of the country. Here in Seattle we have a lot of (being nice here) people who like to make a statement about their commitment to the earth.
Hybrids always sold in spurts it seemed and when gas hits 3.50 plus for a gallon it seems every other phone call is about a hybrid.
Honda tried selling Accord V-6 hybrids and they were a dismal flop for several reasons.
We also sold a lot of fleet cars to goverment agencies and they too, wanted to make a statement by buying hybrids.
Posted over in the How does gas at $4 and higher impact you? discussion seeking more data points. Nippononly is another high miles roller as I recall.
Curve handling is "fun" but not a requirement for a car.
As is milk being optional with your corn flakes.
Sam
But really - Gary and I have gone on about this for years, with both of our stubborn selves unrelenting.
I found a few studies that show "handling" is NOT a prime or top 5 desire for MOST new car buyers.
There are a certain group of people who get the centrifugal JOY from taking a corner fast.
I kinda outgrew that about the same time I outgrew clubbing.
I say go ride a roller coaster if you want that feeling.
If I was so unfortunate as to live in a city where all the streets are run North /South or East/West and no hills then I would probably be satisfied with a skate board or bicycle. Or even ride the bus. The road I drive is 2.5 mile to town it is just such a windy road that would be best driven with a Porsche. My wife says no to that. So a German engineered car from VW with a diesel engine would be a good compromise.
Which one would be your choice to turn around and head back the other way on the same route?
Now granted, in my one example I have used the extreme measure of removing some crucial running gear bits that assist in the handling and driving dynamic and basic comfort level, but I did so only as an example that hopefully all could grasp that there are varying ways of suspending a vehicle. They all do much the same thing in that they help control the shock of bumps and isolate the occupants in a good way, support the vehicle's mass with confidence during maneuvers, help control unsprung weight, resist torque steer on FWD's, and brake the vehicle with assurance and predictability etc etc. The thing is though, even though they both might do the same thing, there are different ways of achieving that same goal and you don't have to be a racer or even just a spirited driver in order to appreciate these differences.
Sam
End of story. No need to brag. :shades:
I am sure it is not until they wallow into an accident that could have been avoided with a vehicle decently suspended. How many times have you had to swerve hard when some yokel turns left when you have the green light? Maybe not often. When it happens you need as good of a suspension as you can afford.
We know you don't leave the flat land of roaring Interstates, so windy roads are not an issue with you.
"Handling and Suspension" is about 20 on my list of things I care about in a car.
You just have it higher on the list than I do, as does Gary.
What is your guess on how many accidents are "HYPOTHETICALLY avoidable" with better suspension?
5%? 8%? Certainly not much higher, if even that high.
Here are the REAL reasons people have car wrecks:
http://top-10-list.org/2010/10/09/top-ten-car-accident-causes/
http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/05/07/20/the-6-most-common-causes-of-automobi- le-crashes.htm
This list has "Deadly Curves" at #20.
http://seriousaccidents.com/legal-advice/top-causes-of-car-accidents/
Essentially, I know the differences are far greater.
You can see it in the fuel economy.gov. A 2004 Prius had a 60 city/50 highway EPA rating. The average as reported is between 45 to 47.5 mpg. A 2003 TDI Jetta had a 42 city /49 EPA rating. The average reported is betwen 43 to 46.5 mpg. That is probably why a lot of Prius owners really don't want to do an A/B test, even as if they want to tell you that they can get better mpg than a diesel.
I tell you what, you hold your head over a bucket of regular gas and I will hold my head over a bucket of diesel. We can see which of us passes out first. Gasoline is the odorless killer. And breathing gas exhasust is even more dangerous than exhaust from a diesel. CO (carbon monoxide) is much higher from gasoline. Something the EPA does not worry about it seems. Take the BMW 335D or X5D out for a spin and tell us what you think of diesel power.
Welcome to the forum. :shades:
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-category/compact-car/
Consumer Reports give the same low ratings, which is why I wouldn't buy a Jetta, especially for the long term. I don't want to deal with a problem vehicle regardless of MPG.
Specifically for the 2003 Jetta, the Dependability ratings are all the lowest at 2 circles out of 5.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Volkswagen/Jetta/2003/Sedan/ratings/
I'm sure some owners will be able to drive a million miles on their Jetta TDI with zero problems, but I'm not going to buy one based on a unique experience like that.
Compare this to a 2006 Prius getting 4-5 circles for Dependability and listed by JD Powers as "Most Dependable Compact Car"
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Toyota/Prius/2006/Hatchback/ratings/
So even if a Jetta or Golf TDI can get similar average MPG as a Prius (which is unlikely on average, maybe highway driving, but not overall avearage, especially considering diesel costs more), based on reliability and dependability data I still wouldn't want one.
"LIKE"
One should always go into ANY transaction, let alone the modern day equivalent of "horse trading" with that latin saying "Buyer BEWARE".
But then on the other hand it really makes you wonder why Toyota diesels do not sell well in Europe. Again, not that it matters here.
I feel the same way about the Prius. When you consider lousy handling, noisy, rough riding to go along with the decent mileage, the reliability means little to me. I would not want one. I may as well take the bus and save a ton of money. At my age comfort, handling, safety, ease of getting in and out, trump mileage. Only a masochist would get in a Prius and try to break the Jetta TDI mileage record. Be sure and post when a Prius or any other vehicle breaks that record.
Together, the Taylors own nearly 40 world records for fuel economy, and this month they added to their tally by breaking the mileage record for driving the 48 contiguous United States. Their mark: 67.9 miles per gallon, achieved over 19 days and some 9,500 miles in a 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/mileage-champs-break-another-record-i- n-vw-jetta-tdi/
The best I have ever got in a 03 TDI has been 62 mpg. I personally just don't like to do what has to be done to get 62 mpg and PLUS (go -5 to -10 below the speed limit, which I assume is 65 mph) . Road hypnosis is a greater issue during those times.
Since I have done this multiple times, I know it is not a flute. All I need do to get 59 mpg (road trip) is to go 75 mph with bursts of 80/85 mph, and mre importantly,.... stay awake.
I will consider the GY Fuel Savers, for the next set of tires. However the "crappy" oem tires are on track to to 100,000 miles. So it will not be for a while. The oem GY LSH's got 112,300 miles, before a got a little antsy to put on the new set. I had bought the new set 2/3 years too early and the 6 year shelf life for "rubber" was a ticking.
Not many people in a city commute are getting 57 out of a TDI.
Not that this matters much to a 2011 Prius owner, but the 105 ft#'s of torque (Edmunds.com specifications page) is almost totally underwhelming in comparison to 2009/2011 VW's TDI's of 236ft #'s. In fact the torque on a TDI is 224% greater! As a side bar this is one reason why I say the Toyota Camry Hybrid is really the competition to the Jetta TDI. Another is the mpg is close to the Jetta TDI's with Jetta's happening to be app 11% better. As a comparison a 1.2 L 3 cylinder TDI makes more torque than the Prius' 104 # ft and posts more like 75 mpg. Of course you are winding up the Prius like flogging a yelping dog to get it, @ 4,000 rpm. Max torque delivered for the TDI is @ 1,750 to 2,500 rpm.
Torque is nice. The van has 200 ft. pounds for those times I want to squeal away from the stop sign.