Didn't. You just said 2 M Prius is nothing compared to the number of diesels sold - so I said the Prius is not for every buyer - so the numbers will NEVER be astronomical.
Well, while you didn't say it directly, I have to applaud you for indicating the hybrid is NOT the answer to peace in our times (emissions, but you get what I mean I hope) .
I read that a (pretty) funny fight is brewing. China is cartelling the market for Prius critical very very very rare (so called "EARF") metals and it is driving costs beyond reason. It makes gold and platinum prices look like costume junk metals. So now Toyota oems want to resurrect a know US very very very rare metals mine in the USA. The evironcons are (predictably) fighting it, toof and nail. :lemon: Go DIESEL, DIESEL, DIESEL.
Obviously, that situation will have to be remedied.
Other products besides "hybrid cars" use those metals too.
Tantalum is used in cell phones, while antimony is a common flame retardant, and indium is part of LCD TVs. These elements along with better-known ones such as copper, zinc, silver, and platinum, are relatively rare in our world, and our high tech gadgets are using them up at alarming rates.
Obviously, that situation will have to be remedied.
That is yet to be seen. Also one hold up with EVs and plug in hybrids will be the fact that Bolivia controls half the Lithium market. Don't forget that Wind generators are also BIG users of "Rare Earths". Our whole scheme to get rid of fossil fuel on the backs of other countries may come crashing down upon US.
UYUNI, Bolivia — In the rush to build the next generation of hybrid or electric cars, a sobering fact confronts both automakers and governments seeking to lower their reliance on foreign oil: almost half of the world's lithium, the mineral needed to power the vehicles, is found here in Bolivia - a country that may not be willing to surrender it so easily.
PS The dictator of Bolivia hates US. We may have to get some dirty air again to feed our habits. Bring on the GTL and diesel from coal. Get your diesel vehicle while the gettin' is good.
My Father-In-Law is a very well respected petroleum engineer with a list of patents that numbers in the many dozens, and he is in the completion stage of codifying a process that provides a means for building what he terms "portable GTL processing facilities".
As I understand it, a typical GTL installation costs about $9 billion to build and bring on line whereas the equipment for his process can be broken down into a dozen or so shipping containers and costs about ten million to buy and set up (which requires about an acre of land). I recently read an article published about him in a periodical from the Ft. Worth area that included a tidbit about the university that was working with him to prove out the process; a university he's worked with in the past on other innovations he's brought to the market place.
I hope for all of our sakes, his process proves out to be commercially viable.
Yes, that was a 9 B deal that ExxonMobil backed out of in Quatar. They did not give a reason. However 10 M vs 9 B ah ... a no brainer here. Wouldn't that be a coincidence if that was the real reason why?
I hope your FIL is successful. That would be a real boon for the USA. With our abundance of NG. I should probably get off the dime and buy some kind of diesel vehicle as a hedge against gas shortages and gouging.
I still have hope for the Algae to biodiesel process. Not sure what the break even price is for those systems.
I'm a big fan of micro-algae sourced biodiesel and believe it is our best and most logical source of long-term renewable energy for all powered vehicles. I mean hey, what's not to like? Bio diesel can use our existing infrastructure for distribution and sale, it can be burned in diesel cars, turbine powered aircraft, can be used to heat homes like mine that burn fuel oil, and is extremely good for the environment (it likes to grow in brackish water and be fed with carbon-dioxide and be fertilized with municipal waste, agricultural run-off). Geez, who needs fossil fuel at all?
Actually your post hits the mark on why it will probably not be adopted on any large scale: it is too damned logical and works superbly in the real world.
The answer to the current wringing of hands, sky is falling to the imported oil issue is actually pretty easy. If D2 offers 20-40% better fuel mileage and bio diesel literally can be grown/harvested locally, a short term goal of 25%passenger car diesels and eventual goal of 50% diesels is the simplist structural way to cut demand. Bio diesel used in large volumes, even has the ability to make us a NNN EXPORTER of oil rather than a NNN IMPORTER of oil. Of course it would help if the powers that be direct the EPA to certify bio diesel burning car engines. Currently there is NO diesel passenger car engine that is certified to run B100 to B25. It probably does not mask the true intention for this policy. There are a number (SMALL SMALL minority) that do run various blends of bio diesel.
I am also. I have stock in two different bio-diesel companies. One is algae based the other waste oil and grease. I also have to think that diesel from coal is an option. The Germans used it in WW2. Not sure what point it will become viable. Of course tearing up paradise to get the coal is an obstacle.
It really irks me that the Feds spend so much on Ethanol and so little on Bio-diesel. What people don't seem to realize is getting people to use E85 is a big winner on Fuel Tax. A new Ford Fusion FFV uses 25% more E85 than RUG. When the dust settles and they have every one addicted to using the lower energy per gallon E85, they will pull the subsidies and we will have an instant tax increase of 25%. Not to mention having to stop every couple hours to fill the tank. yuck :sick:
Make mine diesel, hopefully high quality bio-diesel. :shades:
Hey guy, why should we doubt what you are posting from personal experience with the surrounding data? It is clear and understandable. If I have questions I'd ask. I suspect you would give an honest answer.
..."And my many (twice a year) trips to Texas, involving speed limits from 75-80, give me tanks of 33-37 MPG consistently in a TCH.
When I used to do that same trip in a 2004 HCH, I had tanks of 44-56 MPG.
... That's not to say it's any better at high speeds than a TDI - it's probably NOT."...
Given your quoted stated scenarios,
1. in the 09 TDI (given 75 to 80 mph) the nearest I can figure would be 45 to 47 mpg.
2. Likewise doing the same trip in a 03 Jetta TDI, (75 mph with bursts to 80/85) posts 59 mpg.
Sam, I've only owned a Prius since last summer and I don't know of anyone else who owns one, but the initial battery is never "used up" exactly, since it's always being charged to keep the battery level up to a certain point, but I know what you mean. On totally flat highway you're basically running purely on engine power after a certain amount of miles.
I've been on several long highway drives (around 1000 miles each), but I've never been over 75mph, and that's only when the speed limit was 70mph. I don't like to waste my time looking out for cops, so I rarely go more than 5mph over the speed limit. Plus I normally go just at the speed limit because it really doesn't make that much of a difference in the time it takes to getting to the destination. But at around 70mph average my Prius averages about 50mpg, at 65mph I average about 52mpg and at 60mph (on a long road trip in Canada with 100km strictly enforced speed limt) I was averaging 54mpg.
What you have to remember is that at highway speeds, it's the aerodynamics of a car that really affect MPG, and the Prius is very good in that area. Plus the gas engine of the Prius is very efficient even if there was no hybrid system. One of the main problems with the Volt is that the gas engine by itself isn't very efficient, but that's not an issue with the Prius. That being said, if the Prius didn't have the hybrid system, the gas engine wouldn't be strong enough for a lot of around town driving, where you need the instant power supplied by the battery. But on long highway cruises, once a car is in motion, it takes very little energy to keep it in motion, so the little gas engine is sufficient.
So the answer is that yes, the Prius is very efficient on long highway cruises because it's small engine is enough to keep it moving (see Newton). When you get to hills and mountain areas, then the battery kicks in to give it a boost because again gas engine ensures that the battery is always charged.
I think some of you folks in Texas should just rent a Prius and see for yourself. It would be a simple test to put it on cruise control at 85mph for a several hours and see the results.
Given the "same" aerodynamic coefficient of friction numbers, the slipstream really does not know or care whether a diesel, gasser, gasser hybrid is doing the motivating!!??
Renting a Prius to "see for ourselves" really does not change the dynamic that it is hard to get an straight answer from a Prius owner what they get at more normal (85th percentile) freeway speeds.
Of course those very same "vague" Prius owners will say diesel owners who drive Prius and claim "whatever" mpg probably will have " BIAS" issues.
..."Obviously, that situation will have to be remedied. "...
I think it also might be in ways never intended (law of unintended consequences) . I think the over all trend will be a world wide DECREASE in the future nuclear options (no this did not take rocket science to figure) . It is probably a slam dunk to not rebuild a nuclear power plant near or at the site in Japan. There of course are a whole gambit of reasons. They have existed for a while also. The consequences will be an almost FACTORIALLY and greater increase in fossilized fuels USE on both the production of power side and downstream use.
So for example in watching Japan's earthquake and tsunami news, (American slant) some news networks estimated the NPP being "off line" represents a LOSS of -10% electrical generation/capacity, etc. So now one has to figure what a nuclear power plant displaced in terms of natural gas or coal use to GENERATE that (now) lost -10% of electrical generation/capacity.
Actually I've driven all over the country and 85mph isn't the "normal" highway speed that's I've seen except around big cities during rush hour in specific states (and I try to avoid driving in big cities during rush hour on my road trips). Most traffic goes between the speed limit and 10mph above it in my experience. I guess if you live in a 75mph max speed state then 85mph is more "normal" than if you live in a 65mph max speed state. And any car will get better MPG at 55, which will get less and less as you increase speed due to aerodynamics.
But your right, aerodynamics is aerodynamics regardless of the engine type. If a TDI was more aerodynamic it would get even better highway MPG. And I'm not sure how my previous post was "vague." It seemed pretty specific to me. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Like I said, just rent a Prius for a day, drive several hours at 85mph on cruise control and see for yourself. It's not that complicated. That's a smart thing to do especially if you're in the market for a new car.
I don't drive at 85mph (my state has a 65mph max speed), but considering I was getting 2mpg less as I went from 60mph to 75mph, I'd estimate that at 85mph I'd get about 46mpg. If you can get better than that with a TDI and most of your driving is at that speed and you're not concerned with potential repair issues, then get a TDI. Again, it's not so complicated or controversial...we're just talking about cars :P
what would it take to colonize that country? About a week?
While I am not adverse to that thinking. You have to look at the big picture. Bolivia's dictator is very close to Venezuela's dictator. They in turn are making alliances with Russia and China. So to do what you suggest we would probably have to take on China and Russia. Which may be more than a week of fighting. Several European countries are also trying to make deals with the Bolivians for their natural resource wealth. Not quite as easy as it was 100 years ago to take over a country we wanted to exploit. Oh and Bolivia is still hurting as a result of Enron screwing them over on some kind of water project. Our enemies could be a big factor in our quest for energy independence. We better open up some of the lands the liberals have closed to extraction of natural resources. Like the 2 million acres of Utah that Robert Redford convinced Clinton to close.
The truth is as it has been said before. Almost EVERY model in the world wide markets has a diesel option. So for example my 04 Civic would have most certainly been a TDI, IF they had let it in. While 38-42 mpg in a gasser is very good, 52-56 is 37% to 33% BETTER. This is also not to mention the upgrades to the drive train and probably suspension that would have to go along with the increased torque in a Civic.
One thing to remember is that MPG estimates for European cars can't be translated into American MPG estimates. Not only is the imperial gallon different, but the methods for estimating MPG in Europe is different, so you can't just convert liters to gallons and km to miles and think that's what you'll get in America. Plus there are different emission requirements, which affect the MPG in America making them lower. That's one of the reasons European models look so efficient. A "75mpg diesel Golf" in Europe might translate to only 45mpg in America after the emissions are upgraded, measurements are converted and USA MPG testing is done.
There were no claims that 85 mph is the defacto normal speed across the country.
I do have to say that during the day (non rush hours) I am in the SLOW lane #4/4 lanes doing 80-85 mph and almost everyone else is passing me. As you can see that does not even begin to approach the 85th percentile. Now I do pass fully loaded tractors and two trailers full of earth. However that is usually only because of the sand blasting my front end and windshield will get if I stay behind them !!!?? This is not to even mention the increase chances of a stone shot.
Why is it so hard for environ cons to admit they like to burn more, while advocating using less? :P Please stop it, you want to make it sound that Europe has NO emissions controls., nor are they remotely concerned with mpg. As you probably will say, European fuel is way more per gal than the USA's as expensive as that has lately become. Actually it is only lately the US standards have caught up to the Europeans'. Not that I would necessarily want those standards imposed here. Needless to say average real cars that actually get higher mpg are much more than the US's
If where you live the normal highway speeds are such that the slow lane is going 80-85mph and if you're going that speed you get blasted full of sand, then I'd be driving at least 90mph in something other than the slow lane and accept whatever MPG I get! I'm glad I don't live there and that most of the country doesn't live in those circumstances
And I don't consider myself part of any "green" movement. I bought the Prius last summer because I knew gas prices were going to go up, I didn't need the larger car I was previously driving (Ford Freestyle), the reliability of the Prius is great so I bought a used one and my wife liked the car. Those were my reasons. My main "green" reason was to save me money in gas and having lower future repair costs.
That is almost undeniable. However what is also undeniable is what I said about the Civic gasser vs TDI. So as you say the walking is matching the talking. Burning more is the talk and the walk (38-42) vs 52 to 56 mph. where the talk of burning less does not match the walk.
I agree with you there. A TDI Golf gets better MPG than a Civic gasser. But I think in the long run most folks will have more repair costs for the Golf as compared to the Civic...not everyone, but most folks.
For me, I'd rather have a highly reliable used Prius than either a new Golf or new Civic and get better average MPG than either based on my driving conditions.
The thing is that there's no "right" car for every situation.
I think that you 're ignoring the like for like model costs for a Civic gasser/iCTDI. It is way apparent the oem's are not. Trend wise I think the iCTDI's costs would probably be less than the gassers. Indeed my Jetta TDI's cost of operation was less than the Civic gassers', at like miles (120,000 miles). Now I admit from the get go that is "anecdotal" as I had to pay them BOTH.
So for example if the Civic (iCTDI) got 52-56 mpg, the mpg Prius figures are rendered moot. Then it is still a matter of whether or not one wants to buy the complex (albeit costly) technology for complex technology's (and goes without saying costly's) sake. If over 2 M units was passed not long ago world wide and over 10 years, it does not take an analyst to guess where that TREND woud be heading.
You are absolutely correct, but so what? There are INXS of 500+ models per year (according to an Edmunds.com unofficial but official figures, while growing the diesel options are literally an extreme minority group.
Cost of operation is completetly different than repair cost and overall reliability. A Jetta may have lower operating costs but the higher failure rates and repair costs will be more significant in the long run than a few less oil changes.
and what is an iCTDI??? Is that something available in the USA?
You might want to google Honda's iCTDI for the full monte on the concept to market Honda diesel offering. I think it is at least a decade old and been on the world wide markets at least 8 years. This was spear headed by the head engineer who gave the world the Honda V-TEC engine. Before he headed the diesel project he was rumored to have said he would NEVER do/design a diesel.
If one defines a solution in terms of no solution, why is it surprising when there is no ....SOLUTION ??? !!! :P
But being as how we are on a diesel thread and some folks might perceive an inherent dislike of Prius's, let me say this, about that. I have absolutely nothing against Prius's. In fact, I often wonder what a Prius would do with a diesel engine. Mpg wise it is a no brainer to say, mpg would be better in a TDI. I envision a low torque 3 cylinder diesel option, the (5) current options and a higher torque 4 cylinder option.
We can get to the Lithium by throwing money at it.
I think we are, as half the price of an EV or Volt is the cost of the Batteries. The idiocy this country does to avoid the obvious best choice in Fuel. None of the other options come close to diesel on a logical economic basis.
One thing to remember is that MPG estimates for European cars can't be translated into American MPG estimates.
You can thank the Idiots at CARB/EPA for that mess. If we had made an effort to bring economical vehicles that had common emissions and fuel requirements to the USA, we would be on a level playing field with the rest of the World. Instead we regulate every aspect of the automobile making it cost much more with negligible if any gains from a safety or environmental standpoint.
Indeed as further evidence to my point, the US is THE market of choice (almost bar NONE) for almost EVERY oem's gass guzzlers !!!!!!!????? Any body who has not noticed that in the last 50 years + is playing ostrich and monkey see, hear, and talk no evil.
Indeed in 45 years I have NEVER needed fuel to be $4.50 per gal (I paiid 4.45 per gal this morning) to drive a 75 mpg car !!! All I needed was the choice or exemption to actually run one in these here US's. I was already there when fuel was .25 to .29 cents a gal and they gave away steak knives as a kicker.
As you said, there are decade's old technology out there for high MPG diesels, but I try to focus on what's available in today's American market. I think someone else also mentioned it, but if I could go out and compare a Corolla wagon diesel to a Prius, then I might be driving a diesel right now. But my choices are limited as to what I can buy.
Well thanks for the advice, but there are too many wannabe alzheimmers patients practicing for old age (that I am assuming) behind the wheels, judging by behaviors. Actually I am sure alzheimmers patients do drive.
Your advice might be an inadvertent reason to drive a diesel. I actually get 50 mpg at a steady 90 mph. I am aided somewhat by those very same tractors with 2 trailers loaded with earth, as a fair percentage use THEIR FAST lane, aka #3 of 4 lanes. When they do that they are effective blockers. I mean really how many folks will cruise to get into an accident with 2 trailer loads of dirt!? Shoot after the fatality you could bury em. :lemon: If they are in a smart car, dont even need to spring for a casket.
All joking aside, I, like almost everyone else has seen these on the freeways (what the hell are they doing in the fast lane?) My first impression: GOLF cart lost on its way from the portapotty after the 9th hole.
Then I looked at it closely in a parking lot one night. GEEZZ there is absolutely no room for golf CLUBS !!!!!!!???? Boy was I wrong here !
Then I heard the other news. It gets only 37mpg and on PREMIUM?
But the test is manipulated a bit because you can see the concrete barrier was at an angle (driver side hits first) which helped being able to have the passenger side door still operable. Still, the cage area of the occupant compartment stood up pretty well for a 70 mph hit. It actually slides the 20 ton barrier a few feet, but it was raining so it wasn't as planted as if it had been on dry ground, but still.
The only engine to have in those cars was the 3 cylinder turbo diesel. Why they never made it to USA is one of life's greater mysteries. ULSD strikes again probably. They were rated for high 70's mpg. Totally realistic. But the smart ball was dropped there. The rest of the package left a lot to be desired, although it was a rear wheel drive car so would have those handling attributes, and I hear that it was quite good in snow with the engine weight being over the drive wheels like the old VW bug.
If the 3 cylinder TDI gets high 70's that is ( a min of) double 35-37 mpg? (75 mpg as a mid point)
I am not sure why ULSD would be the target or reason? RUG to PUG is FAR dirtier (30-90 ppm) than ULSD, nominally delivered @ the pump 5 to 10 ppm . The minimum factor (standard to standard 200% dirtier to a more real life of 18 times dirtier than ULSD. If the engine was actually specified to run on biodiesel, the numbers would be absolutely ridiculous. BUT for discussion purposes 1 ppm vs 30 to 90 ppm sulfur. So RUG to PUG is 30 to 90 TIMES dirtier than biodiesel.
Just looked it up. In Canada, in 2005 it was rated for 61 city, 74 highway. Was only a 6 speed auto though so would be able to do better with a proper manual. The smaller the engine (only 800 cc) the bigger the difference a manual makes. And that gallon is 20% larger than US, so it still was rated for 62 highway.
When you think about it, comparing it to a real car in the Golf TDI Wagon ( a roomy for passengers and cargo car) it is incredible how impressive the TDI is. Plus it would absolutely annihilate that Smart in a race. I'll bet you could load a Smart on a trailer and tow it behind the TDI in a race, and still blow the doors off it.
Right. So 90 miles per IMP gal (mp(I)g) converts to app 75 mpg US.? No issues to me personally. However, I find it almost paramont to always refer to one measurement protocol/ standard, since the audience can be world wide. Once that is known folks can do their own conversions. When you add to that that most NON diesel owners think diesel owners routinely lie about their mpg, even more so.
TDI's are rather predictable in that the max torque rpm are pretty close to the "most efficient range" (actually overlayed might be a better graphic) so really all one needs to do is to figure out the min and max torque rpm for both the speeds and most efficient fuel mpg.
I have to admit, the 90 sounds like a bit of an exaggeration, but closer than the 74 sounded like. That 90 converted to US would put it right at 75 mpg. I believe it, especially if it was hooked to a stick. Probably optimistic though if driven much over 60 mph.
Since I have not seen the technical information page on either's owners manual, TDI Smart car/VW Polo TDI, nexus here 3 cylinder TDI's, I think that would really depend on where the oem's optimized the max torque with the gearing (4,5,6 gears).
In any case, minus -1 cylinder would give app 25% better fuel efficiency. So for example, if I can go 75 mph (4 cylinder TDI) with bursts to 80/85 and post 59 mpg, (5 speed manual) I think 25% better than that (73.75) can almost be COMPLETELY reasonable in a 3 cylinder TDI and a 6 speed manual. Not to mention going 15 mph SLOWER.
Comments
But no one, including Toyota, ever said the Prius was the car for EVERY need.
No car fits that bill.
But ditto, 135 M diesels vehicles on the way to even ... more ??!!
I read that a (pretty) funny fight is brewing. China is cartelling the market for Prius critical very very very rare (so called "EARF") metals and it is driving costs beyond reason. It makes gold and platinum prices look like costume junk metals. So now Toyota oems want to resurrect a know US very very very rare metals mine in the USA. The evironcons are (predictably) fighting it, toof and nail. :lemon: Go DIESEL, DIESEL, DIESEL.
Other products besides "hybrid cars" use those metals too.
Tantalum is used in cell phones, while antimony is a common flame retardant, and indium is part of LCD TVs. These elements along with better-known ones such as copper, zinc, silver, and platinum, are relatively rare in our world, and our high tech gadgets are using them up at alarming rates.
That is yet to be seen. Also one hold up with EVs and plug in hybrids will be the fact that Bolivia controls half the Lithium market. Don't forget that Wind generators are also BIG users of "Rare Earths". Our whole scheme to get rid of fossil fuel on the backs of other countries may come crashing down upon US.
UYUNI, Bolivia — In the rush to build the next generation of hybrid or electric cars, a sobering fact confronts both automakers and governments seeking to lower their reliance on foreign oil: almost half of the world's lithium, the mineral needed to power the vehicles, is found here in Bolivia - a country that may not be willing to surrender it so easily.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/world/americas/02iht-lithium.4.19877751.html
PS
The dictator of Bolivia hates US. We may have to get some dirty air again to feed our habits. Bring on the GTL and diesel from coal. Get your diesel vehicle while the gettin' is good.
My Father-In-Law is a very well respected petroleum engineer with a list of patents that numbers in the many dozens, and he is in the completion stage of codifying a process that provides a means for building what he terms "portable GTL processing facilities".
As I understand it, a typical GTL installation costs about $9 billion to build and bring on line whereas the equipment for his process can be broken down into a dozen or so shipping containers and costs about ten million to buy and set up (which requires about an acre of land). I recently read an article published about him in a periodical from the Ft. Worth area that included a tidbit about the university that was working with him to prove out the process; a university he's worked with in the past on other innovations he's brought to the market place.
I hope for all of our sakes, his process proves out to be commercially viable.
I still have hope for the Algae to biodiesel process. Not sure what the break even price is for those systems.
The answer to the current wringing of hands, sky is falling to the imported oil issue is actually pretty easy. If D2 offers 20-40% better fuel mileage and bio diesel literally can be grown/harvested locally, a short term goal of 25%passenger car diesels and eventual goal of 50% diesels is the simplist structural way to cut demand. Bio diesel used in large volumes, even has the ability to make us a NNN EXPORTER of oil rather than a NNN IMPORTER of oil. Of course it would help if the powers that be direct the EPA to certify bio diesel burning car engines. Currently there is NO diesel passenger car engine that is certified to run B100 to B25. It probably does not mask the true intention for this policy. There are a number (SMALL SMALL minority) that do run various blends of bio diesel.
I am also. I have stock in two different bio-diesel companies. One is algae based the other waste oil and grease. I also have to think that diesel from coal is an option. The Germans used it in WW2. Not sure what point it will become viable. Of course tearing up paradise to get the coal is an obstacle.
It really irks me that the Feds spend so much on Ethanol and so little on Bio-diesel. What people don't seem to realize is getting people to use E85 is a big winner on Fuel Tax. A new Ford Fusion FFV uses 25% more E85 than RUG. When the dust settles and they have every one addicted to using the lower energy per gallon E85, they will pull the subsidies and we will have an instant tax increase of 25%. Not to mention having to stop every couple hours to fill the tank. yuck :sick:
Make mine diesel, hopefully high quality bio-diesel. :shades:
..."And my many (twice a year) trips to Texas, involving speed limits from 75-80, give me tanks of 33-37 MPG consistently in a TCH.
When I used to do that same trip in a 2004 HCH, I had tanks of 44-56 MPG.
...
That's not to say it's any better at high speeds than a TDI - it's probably NOT."...
Given your quoted stated scenarios,
1. in the 09 TDI (given 75 to 80 mph) the nearest I can figure would be 45 to 47 mpg.
2. Likewise doing the same trip in a 03 Jetta TDI, (75 mph with bursts to 80/85) posts 59 mpg.
I've been on several long highway drives (around 1000 miles each), but I've never been over 75mph, and that's only when the speed limit was 70mph. I don't like to waste my time looking out for cops, so I rarely go more than 5mph over the speed limit. Plus I normally go just at the speed limit because it really doesn't make that much of a difference in the time it takes to getting to the destination. But at around 70mph average my Prius averages about 50mpg, at 65mph I average about 52mpg and at 60mph (on a long road trip in Canada with 100km strictly enforced speed limt) I was averaging 54mpg.
What you have to remember is that at highway speeds, it's the aerodynamics of a car that really affect MPG, and the Prius is very good in that area. Plus the gas engine of the Prius is very efficient even if there was no hybrid system. One of the main problems with the Volt is that the gas engine by itself isn't very efficient, but that's not an issue with the Prius. That being said, if the Prius didn't have the hybrid system, the gas engine wouldn't be strong enough for a lot of around town driving, where you need the instant power supplied by the battery. But on long highway cruises, once a car is in motion, it takes very little energy to keep it in motion, so the little gas engine is sufficient.
So the answer is that yes, the Prius is very efficient on long highway cruises because it's small engine is enough to keep it moving (see Newton). When you get to hills and mountain areas, then the battery kicks in to give it a boost because again gas engine ensures that the battery is always charged.
I think some of you folks in Texas should just rent a Prius and see for yourself. It would be a simple test to put it on cruise control at 85mph for a several hours and see the results.
Renting a Prius to "see for ourselves" really does not change the dynamic that it is hard to get an straight answer from a Prius owner what they get at more normal (85th percentile) freeway speeds.
Of course those very same "vague" Prius owners will say diesel owners who drive Prius and claim "whatever" mpg probably will have " BIAS" issues.
I think it also might be in ways never intended (law of unintended consequences) . I think the over all trend will be a world wide DECREASE in the future nuclear options (no this did not take rocket science to figure) . It is probably a slam dunk to not rebuild a nuclear power plant near or at the site in Japan. There of course are a whole gambit of reasons. They have existed for a while also. The consequences will be an almost FACTORIALLY and greater increase in fossilized fuels USE on both the production of power side and downstream use.
So for example in watching Japan's earthquake and tsunami news, (American slant) some news networks estimated the NPP being "off line" represents a LOSS of -10% electrical generation/capacity, etc. So now one has to figure what a nuclear power plant displaced in terms of natural gas or coal use to GENERATE that (now) lost -10% of electrical generation/capacity.
I'd love to if I had some better choices. :shades:
In regards to the Bolivia thing, heck, if we need it that bad, what would it take to colonize that country? About a week?
But your right, aerodynamics is aerodynamics regardless of the engine type. If a TDI was more aerodynamic it would get even better highway MPG. And I'm not sure how my previous post was "vague." It seemed pretty specific to me. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Like I said, just rent a Prius for a day, drive several hours at 85mph on cruise control and see for yourself. It's not that complicated. That's a smart thing to do especially if you're in the market for a new car.
I don't drive at 85mph (my state has a 65mph max speed), but considering I was getting 2mpg less as I went from 60mph to 75mph, I'd estimate that at 85mph I'd get about 46mpg. If you can get better than that with a TDI and most of your driving is at that speed and you're not concerned with potential repair issues, then get a TDI. Again, it's not so complicated or controversial...we're just talking about cars :P
While I am not adverse to that thinking. You have to look at the big picture. Bolivia's dictator is very close to Venezuela's dictator. They in turn are making alliances with Russia and China. So to do what you suggest we would probably have to take on China and Russia. Which may be more than a week of fighting. Several European countries are also trying to make deals with the Bolivians for their natural resource wealth. Not quite as easy as it was 100 years ago to take over a country we wanted to exploit. Oh and Bolivia is still hurting as a result of Enron screwing them over on some kind of water project. Our enemies could be a big factor in our quest for energy independence. We better open up some of the lands the liberals have closed to extraction of natural resources. Like the 2 million acres of Utah that Robert Redford convinced Clinton to close.
We can get to the Lithium by throwing money at it.
I do have to say that during the day (non rush hours) I am in the SLOW lane #4/4 lanes doing 80-85 mph and almost everyone else is passing me. As you can see that does not even begin to approach the 85th percentile. Now I do pass fully loaded tractors and two trailers full of earth. However that is usually only because of the sand blasting my front end and windshield will get if I stay behind them !!!?? This is not to even mention the increase chances of a stone shot.
If you took a poll of people who consider themselves a part of the "green" movement, MOST of them are walking their talk.
Just because AlGore and his ilk are hypocrites does not make everyone else who likes to reuse, recycle, and conserve also hypocrites.
And I don't consider myself part of any "green" movement. I bought the Prius last summer because I knew gas prices were going to go up, I didn't need the larger car I was previously driving (Ford Freestyle), the reliability of the Prius is great so I bought a used one and my wife liked the car. Those were my reasons. My main "green" reason was to save me money in gas and having lower future repair costs.
For me, I'd rather have a highly reliable used Prius than either a new Golf or new Civic and get better average MPG than either based on my driving conditions.
The thing is that there's no "right" car for every situation.
So for example if the Civic (iCTDI) got 52-56 mpg, the mpg Prius figures are rendered moot. Then it is still a matter of whether or not one wants to buy the complex (albeit costly) technology for complex technology's (and goes without saying costly's) sake. If over 2 M units was passed not long ago world wide and over 10 years, it does not take an analyst to guess where that TREND woud be heading.
You are absolutely correct, but so what? There are INXS of 500+ models per year (according to an Edmunds.com unofficial but official figures, while growing the diesel options are literally an extreme minority group.
and what is an iCTDI??? Is that something available in the USA?
But being as how we are on a diesel thread and some folks might perceive an inherent dislike of Prius's, let me say this, about that. I have absolutely nothing against Prius's. In fact, I often wonder what a Prius would do with a diesel engine. Mpg wise it is a no brainer to say, mpg would be better in a TDI. I envision a low torque 3 cylinder diesel option, the (5) current options and a higher torque 4 cylinder option.
I think we are, as half the price of an EV or Volt is the cost of the Batteries. The idiocy this country does to avoid the obvious best choice in Fuel. None of the other options come close to diesel on a logical economic basis.
You can thank the Idiots at CARB/EPA for that mess. If we had made an effort to bring economical vehicles that had common emissions and fuel requirements to the USA, we would be on a level playing field with the rest of the World. Instead we regulate every aspect of the automobile making it cost much more with negligible if any gains from a safety or environmental standpoint.
Indeed in 45 years I have NEVER needed fuel to be $4.50 per gal (I paiid 4.45 per gal this morning) to drive a 75 mpg car !!! All I needed was the choice or exemption to actually run one in these here US's. I was already there when fuel was .25 to .29 cents a gal and they gave away steak knives as a kicker.
Your advice might be an inadvertent reason to drive a diesel. I actually get 50 mpg at a steady 90 mph.
Smarts have a bird's eye maple trim option now? Cool!
Sam
Then I looked at it closely in a parking lot one night. GEEZZ there is absolutely no room for golf CLUBS !!!!!!!???? Boy was I wrong here !
Then I heard the other news. It gets only 37mpg and on PREMIUM?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJHpUO-S0i8
But the test is manipulated a bit because you can see the concrete barrier was at an angle (driver side hits first) which helped being able to have the passenger side door still operable. Still, the cage area of the occupant compartment stood up pretty well for a 70 mph hit. It actually slides the 20 ton barrier a few feet, but it was raining so it wasn't as planted as if it had been on dry ground, but still.
The only engine to have in those cars was the 3 cylinder turbo diesel. Why they never made it to USA is one of life's greater mysteries. ULSD strikes again probably. They were rated for high 70's mpg. Totally realistic. But the smart ball was dropped there. The rest of the package left a lot to be desired, although it was a rear wheel drive car so would have those handling attributes, and I hear that it was quite good in snow with the engine weight being over the drive wheels like the old VW bug.
Sam
I am not sure why ULSD would be the target or reason? RUG to PUG is FAR dirtier (30-90 ppm) than ULSD, nominally delivered @ the pump 5 to 10 ppm . The minimum factor (standard to standard 200% dirtier to a more real life of 18 times dirtier than ULSD. If the engine was actually specified to run on biodiesel, the numbers would be absolutely ridiculous. BUT for discussion purposes 1 ppm vs 30 to 90 ppm sulfur. So RUG to PUG is 30 to 90 TIMES dirtier than biodiesel.
And that gallon is 20% larger than US, so it still was rated for 62 highway.
When you think about it, comparing it to a real car in the Golf TDI Wagon ( a roomy for passengers and cargo car) it is incredible how impressive the TDI is. Plus it would absolutely annihilate that Smart in a race. I'll bet you could load a Smart on a trailer and tow it behind the TDI in a race, and still blow the doors off it.
Sam
TDI's are rather predictable in that the max torque rpm are pretty close to the "most efficient range" (actually overlayed might be a better graphic) so really all one needs to do is to figure out the min and max torque rpm for both the speeds and most efficient fuel mpg.
In any case, minus -1 cylinder would give app 25% better fuel efficiency. So for example, if I can go 75 mph (4 cylinder TDI) with bursts to 80/85 and post 59 mpg, (5 speed manual) I think 25% better than that (73.75) can almost be COMPLETELY reasonable in a 3 cylinder TDI and a 6 speed manual. Not to mention going 15 mph SLOWER.