What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

A few of the HUGE (legislative and as a consequence regulatory ) mistakes was when it was decided to remove the lead in leaded gas and not dropping the ppm sulfur of both: now RUG to PUG and ULSD. in the late 70's (app 35 years ago). Even if they didn't do it, they pretty much made biodiesel an uneconomic DOA option. Biodiesel as most know, contains damn near close to ZERO ppm sulfur. However for the sake of discussion, 1 ppm sulfur. So evidently someone is making the decision that RUG used in Prius' @ 30-90 ppm sulfur is "healthy. At the same time ULSD @ 15 ppm while nominall delivered @ 5 yo 7 ppm is NOT. This is obviously a disengenuous disconnect.

larsb

Gary says, "So just because it smells bad is not a measure of its danger."

True, as a philosophy.

But in the case of the older, less carefully filtered diesel trucks, it IS an indicator of it's danger.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/study-links-die.html

A number of adverse short-term health effects have been associated with exposures to diesel exhaust. Occupational exposures to diesel exhaust particles have been associated with significant cross-shift decreases in lung function. Increased cough, labored breathing, chest tightness, and wheezing have been associated with exposure to diesel exhaust in bus garage workers. A significant increase in airway resistance and increases in eye and nasal irritation were observed in human volunteers following one-hour chamber exposure to diesel exhaust. In acute or subchronic animal studies, exposure to diesel exhaust particles induced inflammatory airway changes, lung function changes, and increased the animals' susceptibility to infection.
13.

A number of adverse long-term noncancer effects have been associated with exposure to diesel exhaust. Occupational studies have shown that there may be a greater incidence of cough, phlegm and chronic bronchitis among those exposed to diesel exhaust than among those not exposed. Reductions in pulmonary function have also been reported following occupational exposures in chronic studies. Reduced pulmonary function was noted in monkeys during long-term exposure. Histopathological changes in the lung of diesel-exposed test animals reflect inflammation of the lung tissue. These changes include dose-dependent proliferations of Type II epithelial cells, marked infiltration of macrophages, plasma cells and fibroblasts into the alveolar septa, thickening of the alveolar walls, alveolar proteinosis, and focal fibrosis.

Not to say at all that gasoline exhaust is not deadly - it surely is. They both kill you in their own special way.

stever

Lots of mining for the last 2,000+ years in much of the UP. Mostly copper. Some mines are still operating but the syndicates took much of the ore out in the first half of the 20th Century (so not much resource wealth left). Sure seems clean outside, but like you say, you can't always tell what's in the air just by tasting it.

I can just picture one of Rukings great-great-grandkids - "Remember grandad talking about his grandpop? Drove around in a diesel car and he liked it." :-)

ruking1

Too funny, and unless they go to nuclear powered ships, like our aircraft carriers are powered, they will be using bunker to diesel oil LONG after those great great grandkids are DEAD.

gagrice

Slept for 30 minutes in that car in the garage running.

You were lucky that time. Next time may not be so good for you. Our mechanic was in the shop with the side door wide open and a vehicle running during a tuneup. When he did not answer to a page we went out and he was lying on the floor. We shut off the truck and called the Paramedics. He did not die. He was very fortunate we got to him when we did. The Prius when its engine is running puts out more CO than an equivalent sized diesel engine. I prefer to smell what is going to kill me, than be fooled by an odorless killer.

ruking1

I would agree. I did used to train with/for using SCBA (aka scuba) but really self contained breathing aparatus'es. i.e, rebreathers, air tanks, the like. Part of the training is recognizing your own reactions when you are not receiving enough oxygen and or too much.

samm43

Doesn't a TCH (or any hybrid?) use the engine to power the A/C?

larsb

Sometimes. It will also run under hybrid battery power if the battery level is high enough.

Lots of times stuck in a drive-thru lane or at a stop light I get A/C with engine not running.

Since the gas engine of the Toyota Camry Hybrid will shut down at a stop and under some driving conditions, the air-conditioning and power-steering systems are driven electrically and powered off of the vehicle's batteries. This maximizes fuel economy and guarantees that the air-conditioning will continue to operate.

samm43

So in the case of you being in the garage, was the engine running for any part or all of that 30 minutes, and if so, why not have the garage door open all the way? (not that I am advocating that that was, in any way, a good idea if the engine was involved at all)

Sam (recommending getting a generator if the power goes off very often)

larsb

It was in the middle of the night.

Didn't want to make it easy for a burglar to crawl under the door - opened it just enough to vent but not to allow someone to scoot under...

samm43

I wondered if that was your thinking, but most burglars would slip under the door if they wanted to anyway. "Hey Joey, this one's already partly open!"
In any event, wow. Just wow. You were flirting with disaster and the fact that you left the door open a bit, proved you knew the risks! One can hope that you at least had the recirculate HVAC door set on recirculate.

Sam

larsb

Well, the plan was to make the gap small enough to stop that.....Either it worked, or no one tried !!! :shades:

bigmclargehuge

The wikipedia links prove the 'convention exists.'

You are holding to the definitions, and I actually agree with those definitions.

But, a common practice is still to create a term called a 'clutchless manual', or a 'sequential manual' that have no clutch pedal.

Again, agree with where you are coming from, but it's still a common phrase (i.e. convention).

I also appreciate that the motorsports bodies are trying to be more clear. Perhaps someday, all the world will be properly aligned with the use of the term. I predict that as BMW phases out 'sequential manuals' for Dual Clutch Transmissions, their trademark will die along with the use of that style of transmission, and nobody will feel the need to use it whatsoever.

ruking1

I think the graph that you linked is more than an ample demonstration (defacto) how BASACKWARDS they have got the policy !!! Let's see we need to step up our agriculture 157 to 262% to just meet only half of US demand with corn. It also has relatively low yield potential. This is not to even mention the product percentage that literally has been and will continue to be taken from food production. But then maybe from a revenue perspective, why get 20-40% LESS revenue when you can get 20-40 % MORE revenue and get even more (percentage wise) with those that actually use diesel !!!???

On the other hand, we have biodiesel algae which is a NEGATIVE -183 GHG Emiter (produces a LOAD of oxygen and in effect EATS C02. It has a HIGH potential, but low resource use for a energy yield. It will take 1-2% but not take away food producing land (unless one eats algae) to address half of the US demand. It also has the potential for almost SILLY high yields per acre. YET we are STARVING the R& D portion needed to make the necessary break throughs.

YET for the almost boutique quantities of bio diesel on the markets we have expressly prohibited passenger diesel cars that can actually burn UP to B100!!! I am not sure about anybody else, but the messages and signals are chrystal CLEAR.

shipo

Wikipedia is a definitive source of information for... nothing. True their articles and dissertations are more correct than not, they are not a source to be relied upon to proved the last word.

stever

Well, the OP said to look at the links in the Wikipedia story. The articles may be a bit dicey, but you can go to the sources and dig a bit.

This thread reminds me of the super bluegreen algae MLM craze a few years back. Wikipedia talks about several cases of human poisoning from people eating that stuff.

shipo

That's the entire point, virtually all credible sites and resources use the language correctly (i.e. an automated single or dual clutch transmission is either an automatic with a semi-automatic mode, or as in the case of the F1 cars, simply a semi-automatic), that Wikipedia has it wrong on some (but certainly not all) of their pages simply means they've got it wrong and the language has yet to be corrected.

gagrice

The new Audi Q3 is a premium SUV in a compact form. This genuine Audi sets standards in all aspects of engineering - from its body through drivetrains and chassis to its state-of-the-art assistance systems and multimedia systems. The Audi Q3 is a versatile companion for everyday life - with an urbane character.

This compact premium SUV by Audi will roll off the assembly line with three different four-cylinder engines: one TDI and two TFSI units. All three will combine direct injection with turbocharging, and will feature not only an energy recovery system but also a start-stop system. With power outputs ranging from 103 kW (140 hp) to 155 kW (211 hp), these engines will be as efficient as they are powerful. The basic version, the Audi Q3 2.0 TDI, is scheduled to appear a little later and - with 103 kW (140 hp) and front-wheel drive - will average less than 5.2 liters of fuel per 100 kilometers (45.23 US mpg).

The most powerful gasoline engine and diesel engine, respectively, will be paired with quattro permanent all-wheel drive and a seven-speed S tronic, which switches gears at lightning speed.

The Audi Q3 can tow a trailer weighing as much as 2.0 metric tons (4,400 lb).

You read that correctly. An SUV that gets 45 MPG US. May be time to cash in a few Krugerrands.

fintail

In these weird days, a few of those coins, literally.

gagrice

$1566 a piece. I figure about 30 pieces of gold should get one out the door. May have to buy in Utah as they have passed legislation to accept gold as currency.

scwmcan

Actually I think it is just the trucks in general, when I am following a gas power pick up truck I can smell the gas fumes from them and not feel well, I think it is just poor design, same thing happens when following older gas powered cars as well, not to say that older diesels don't smell, cause they do, but it isn't just diesels.
I think it comes down to what you are used to.
Scott

ruking1

I would agree. The municipalities have agreed that roughly 5% of "those types of cars" put out close to 95% of the so called excess pollution , aka gross pollutors". With passenger diesels being an extreme minority and also almost all with mandatory pollution devices, the culprits are mainly NON diesels, aka GASSERS. The very same stuff they want to claim is clean.

This is NOT to say there are not diesels. However LSD is no longer available and ULSD to B5 is mandatory. So even with no mitigation, the most it can pump out is 1 to 7 ppm sulfur. Conversely an unmitigated gasser can pump out 30-90 ppm sulfur. The math here indicates from (standard against standard) gassers being 2 times dirtier. to a more likely 6 to 18 times diriter, to a max of 90 times dirtier.

Now our host has indicated there are folks who are allergic to diesel fumes. While I am not in the allergy business, I am sure there are many more times that figure (whatever it is) allergic to RUG to PUG fumes.

ruking1

Indeed it might be worth the wait, instead of considering the 27 mpg (great already) VW Touraeg. 45 mpg for an SUV !! It almost makes any car that gets less than that.... moot.

samm43

Well, to be fair, the 45 they referred to was the FWD. They went on to say the larger diesel (whatever that means, because the first one claimed 140hp which is what the standard 2.0 TDI with the standard sized injectors has, along with the 236 pounds of torque which is really what will move that almost 2 ton vehicle around, yet claimed the larger diesel also has 140 hp?) So the larger diesel (which happens to also be 2.0) has maybe more torque to move the quattro?

That is why I never hang off magazine articles written by writers who really aren't familiar with what they are writing about. The guy was probably not a diesel fan.

In any event, the 45 should be possible with the diesel quattro anyway. I think the guy confused the turbo gasser (also 2.0, but greater than 140 hp) with the 2.0 TDI which has the 140 hp, but higher torque than the gasser cousin. My guess is they put the gas turbo in the FWD, but if it manages 45, that in itself is quite the accomplishment. It will be on PUG no doubt because low pressure turbos come at the expense of a bit of go and mpg.

I still think though, that when people think SUV, they think AWD capable, so that is the vehicle the comment's fuel mileage should have referred to.

Sam

I just had a discouraging thought that VW is famous for on these shores. Not putting diesels in AWD vehicles. We have seen it for years with Jetta wagons and Vans and other syncros. So maybe the quattro has one of the TSFI engines. What is TSFI? Turbo Sequential Fuel Injection? Very blasé acronym in these days, if so. It must be a direct injection to get the higher power and mpg, but no DI designation?

ruking1

For sure a lot of that needs to settle down. The current VW 09 TDI easily ranges 40 to 47 and I will still be in (perpetual) break in mode to 30,000 to 60,000 actual miles.

AWD (for my op/ed) is almost total overkill. I would not opt for it, almost under any circumstances. Optioned or not one major issue (not under my control) is if it will pass the CA (mountain) chain control points. I guess as I get closer to the pull the trigger phase I should phone the CHP/CA Trans chain control gurus to get a REAL reading.

Indeed if the 45 mpg is a gasser, it sets up a whole new set of filters. Easily one of the major draws to a Touraeg is the 400+ # ft of torque and the TDI's almost perfect match to CA roads. Not to mention it would get easily 4-6 mpg better than a similar gasser.

samm43

I forgot you live out west. Just check the resale value of any used 2 WD SUV in the east and you will see that AWD is the way most are sold.

stever

Rarely do I have to roll up the windows if I'm idling in traffic at lights, etc. If a diesel truck pulls up I do.

But it's not only the fumes - the rattling of the engine drowns out the radio.

ruking1

Thanks for the heads up. I will have to adjust the filters somewhat (as a minimum). Practically, I am already at the 45 mpg marks, and with the non AWD to boot. In the worst case, all I really need here are so called "winter tires" and ski racks. (right now I just drop one portion of the rear seat and I am good to go for up to 3 people) I think I'd get far more change from a 40,000+ dollar bill. I am at least 10 years beyond the "have to have a new car" phase. The state also keeps reminding me the new car tax (up to 10%) is one, one "volunteers" to pay. So at least two reasons to .... NOT.

I do have to say I sometimes wax nostalgic for going skiing with 7/8 folks in the SUV with full gear. The kids now do it a lot with up to 6 (college friends) in the SUV and with full gear- 2/2/2 seating positions)

fintail

From what I can see and smell in visible particulates, many modern commercial rigs put out more stink than any passenger car - an ill maintained 1978 300D just wishes it could cloud up the sky like some of the box trucks I see around here. Sounds like a subsidy of sorts.

stever

True, but you usually don't share your commute with the box trucks or big rigs. It's rare that I've been stuck on the interstate behind or next to them.

fintail

I see plenty of ill maintained box trucks here - I am pretty sure some kind of legislation exempts them from any kind of emissions standards. Not all traffic is during commutes. But I think there has been a movement to clean them up.

ruking1

link title

bigmclargehuge

A conventional term is something that people commonly use.

Has nothing to do with what the official regulations call it.

It's like all the unofficial nicknames for certain equipment in the military. Everything from 'walkie talkie' to 'the BUFF' become common names for things that have separate, official names.

They are commonly used terms and that is how Wiki picks up on them. Wiki is not official regs and nobody said they were. It is a collection of information that is typically cited elsewhere. So if they follow their own process, they can't technically be 'wrong.' They are usually pretty good about citing sources.

shipo

Sorry, not buying. Just because folks are ignorant enough to use a term incorrectly doesn't in any way make it a convention.

[Deleted User]

They might be "automatic," but to simply call a dual clutch transmission an automatic transmission (which does not have single or dual clutches) merely confuses the situation. For example, VW's six speed "shiftable" automatic is a very different beast from the DSG six speed transmission. To call a DSG a semi-automatic does not describe it either. How is it any less automatic in operation than a conventional automatic? Both viscous coupling transmissions and dual clutch transmissions can shift completely automatically, and both allow you to more or less run through the gears if you choose. Neither lets you actually operate a clutch...but one does have a clutch. "Automatic manual" sounds dumb, but it does recognize that the DSG has mechanisms more in common with a six speed manual than a six speed automatic. Since I didn't read this entire thead, I don't even know why this is an issue, but sometimes I just poke my head in to see if it gets cut off. :P

shipo

Bit by bit:

They might be "automatic," but to simply call a dual clutch transmission an automatic transmission (which does not have single or dual clutches) merely confuses the situation.

What does the number of clutches have to do with whether a transmission is an "Automatic" or not? Answer: Nothing.

For example, VW's six speed "shiftable" automatic is a very different beast from the DSG six speed transmission.

So? Both transmissions in your "example" are "Automatic" transmissions.

To call a DSG a semi-automatic does not describe it either.

I don't believe I ever referred to a DSG as a "Semi-Automatic" transmissions, and if I did, I was mistaken. The linguistically correct way to refer to a DSG is to call it an "Automatic" transmission with a "Semi-Automatic" mode.

How is it any less automatic in operation than a conventional automatic?

It isn't, both DSG and conventional hydraulic torque converter equipped transmissions are by definition "Automatic" transmissions.

Both viscous coupling transmissions and dual clutch transmissions can shift completely automatically, and both allow you to more or less run through the gears if you choose.

True; hence the fact that they are both "Automatic" transmissions.

Neither lets you actually operate a clutch...but one does have a clutch.

Incorrect, both transmission styles have clutches.

"Automatic manual" sounds dumb, but it does recognize that the DSG has mechanisms more in common with a six speed manual than a six speed automatic.

Not only does it sound dumb, it is dumb; this construct is a complete contradiction and as such, incorrect usage of our language. That and it does nothing to recognize the mechanical similarities between a true manual and the DSG. One possible (and correct) construct from a language perspective would be an "Automatic Mechanical" gearbox. I'm sure there are others.

Since I didn't read this entire thead, I don't even know why this is an issue, but sometimes I just poke my head in to see if it gets cut off. :P

All I'm trying to do here is to help anyone and everyone interested in speaking correctly to use proper language (from a linguistic perspective) to describe automated mechanical gearboxes. The sooner folks adopt correct language, the sooner things like "Automatic Manual" will be dropped from our lexicon.

plekto

The exact term he's looking for is "Sequential Manual Transmission". That's the only actual non-automatic transmission that doesn't have a clutch pedal. Almost everything else is some form of an automatic, as you noted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_manual_transmission
This is most often seen on motorcycles. It allows the removal of a clutch pedal (or lever) from the equation. IIRC, a few cars use a SMT gearbox, though. (literally less than half a dozen in production today, all very expensive exotics)

http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/maintenance/hydrak.htm
This is the other version of a clutch-less manual that's still a manual. VW and a few others used similar technologies to get rid of the clutch pedal while retaining a manual transmission. Nobody uses such a system now.

The rest is all some form of automatic. (hence the reason the word "Manual" is missing from their official names)

bigmclargehuge

Sorry, not buying. Just because folks are ignorant enough to use a term incorrectly doesn't in any way make it a convention.

Except by definition.... No offense, but you're in danger of mis-using a term... about mis-used terms.

[Deleted User]

Wow. I can see this matter is really important to you for some reason.

"Automatic" transmission with a "Semi-Automatic" mode? Good luck with getting the world to go with that, or with "Automatic Mechanical." I suspect that "automatic manual" will not be "dropped from our lexicon" any more quickly than "four door coupe" will.

It seems to me that any time we try to pin language down within certain parameters, the language goes ahead and changes again. People are both creative and prone to bending rules. We will always have to contend with such things as idioms, regionalisms, patois, and social dialects, not to mention common words that "literally" make no sense.

I look forward to your next dissection of my message. This is fun!

shipo

"Automated Manual" is okay for folks whom are okay with "on(ed) off", "whited black", "gooded bad", "colded hot", "one(ed) zero",...

You get the idea. As you can tell I'm not "okay" with a term like that.

Long story short, the DSG is an Automatic Transmission; if one wants to qualify it as a mechanical drive coupling versus an hydraulic one, no problem.

ruking1

While an interesting discussion, I think what might get lost is the reasoning for (the DSG- direct shift gearbox) it.

Basically one advantage a DSG offers a- step up in mpg over a conventional "slush box" automatic. It is @ the same "higher cost" (option). Since it is seeing application in the VW line, it might be useful to point out that a lot of VW "slushbox" automatics were problematic (higher % wise) and consumed close to 7 mpg more than a manual transmission. FF to today ,...much is made of the SIMILAR if not the same EPA ratings between a DSG and 6 speed manual.

Now I would swag the 6 speed manual probably has a better RANGE of mpg. In my op/ed, a 6 speed manual transmission is probably still the best pairing.

stever

"For clean-diesel engines such as those found in some Audi and Volkswagen models, fuel prices and availability -- factors largely out of the control of vehicle manufacturers -- have long been impediments to acceptance of the technology. Furthermore, negative perceptions of older diesel-powered vehicles continue to affect perceptions of clean diesel vehicles, as concerns about emissions and exhaust odor are mentioned frequently. "Advocates of clean-diesel engines tend to be some of the most vocal among consumers who tout the benefits of their chosen technology," VanNieuwkuyk said. "However, this consumer group is relatively small. Clean-diesel technology continues to struggle not only against concerns about cost and perceived fuel availability, but also against the lingering perception that diesel is 'dirty.' "

Dismal Alt Fuel Market Ahead Says JD Power Study (AutoObserver)

ruking1

Then I think that realistically the "anti" diesel forces have been successful in making the RUG to PUG set the dominate "single fuel" if you will. Again 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet is RUG to PUG with PUG being app 9%.

Keep also in mind that diesel used to be @ 3%. Meaning it went from 3% to 2% a 33.3% DECLINE. The good news is that ULSD is NOT going away.

stever

I don't think there's really all that much of an anti-diesel crowd other than me and maybe the American Lung Association. You're really fighting old perceptions, which is practically an invisible target. Those are hard to fight.

ruking1

Evidently the American Lung Association is just fine with higher levels of ppm sulfur (higher pollution levels) for world wide shipping and cruise ships and airplanes, unmitigated farming, construction and recreational emissions. Bunker oil is just fine at over 20,000 ppm sulfur. Bunker oil is used for shipping and cruise ships.

To me it shows that despite all this conservation talk low per gal prices, etc that it is just that TALK. They are uninterested in saving/conserving ANY fuel, let alone the like for like diesel models that save anywhere from 20-40%. So that is fine. The policy really hasn't changed. Now they have ALWAYS been serious about raising the price of RUG to PUG. They have achieved that in a full depression. Yet now they are looking for the scapegoats to take the blame for the achievements they have worked so hard for. So now in effect they will enforce both higher prices and @ record consumption. Or was that record consumption @ higher prices? In addition, the ppm sulfur is factorially higher for RUG to PUG (30-90 ppm sulfur) than ULSD 15 ppm sulfur nominally delivered 5 to 7 ppm and bio diesel @ less than 1 ppm sulfur..

stever

Don't really know; haven't explored their site much. Doubt they are "just fine" with it however.

US consumption is dropping. 1.6% decline recently. (WSJ). But other countries are increasing their demand for oil, so it's not going to help our prices much, if at all.

ruking1

Well yes in addtion if growth year over year is 4% (104%) then MINUS-1.6 % is still 102.4%.

So now China's middle class will be the new market for American and European gas guzzlers? I have read in passing that China's middle class is 300 M PLUS. and growing. What is the US's total population 307 M?

gagrice

I don't think there's really all that much of an anti-diesel crowd other than me and maybe the American Lung Association.

Is the American Lung Assoc. as verbal about pets causing asthma as they are about diesel? This book I am reading about dust deals a lot with the rapid increase in asthma. People that study it say pets are likely one of the major causes. As diesel gets cleaner, asthma increases. Kind of takes the bite out of your argument against diesel and asthma.

stever

Like I said, I'm not up on much about the Lung Association's various positions; just read their diesel blurb ("Protecting Yourself From Diesel is Nearly Impossible"). Note that they really focus a lot on buses and trucks.

My wife has no fur allergy but diesel fumes bother her. Different coughs for different folks.

What's that book again? Keep meaning to put it on my list (part of me is afraid to read it!).

Ruking1, the US population is around 312 million. In addition to Chinese demand, oil demand is growing fast in India, Brazil and Saudi Arabia.

gagrice

"The Secret Life of Dust" by Hannah Holmes. It is to the air we breath what the Omnivore's Dilemma is to the food we eat. I disagree with some of her theories. But the evidence from noted scientists on the various types of dust we breath every day is enlightening.