I am also clueless. the fueleconomy.gov is the US resource, but it is based on a very small population of specific year TDI users.
But then that was what the bru ha ha was about for the 2004 Prius owners. I mean I TOTALLY believe one can get the 60 C and 50 h. But really, what the 2004 Prius owners that threaten the CALS and got the perfectly fine 35 year old EPA test CHANGED was they were only concerned what THEY got and not the theoretical 60/50 mpg.
I guess when I'm on long road trips with my family, reliability & dependability are a more important factor to me than sportier handling. I guess I'll have to sacrifice pulling less G's on the entrance ramps
Published on 4/06/2011 EDITOR WES RAYNAL: I love this engine in this 2011 Volkswagen Touareg TDI. It works really well and has oodles of power and torque for instant thrust. I was also impressed with the way the car “handles,” and yes, I put that in quotes because after all, it weighs 5,000 pounds. But it doesn’t roll nearly as much as other big SUVs, in my opinion. It’s almost sporty for an SUV. The chassis offers good feedback from the road, too. Actually, it’s all a pretty remarkable driving experience, again for a car this big.
The interior is nice, though it doesn’t seem quite as nice as that in the model this replaces. The quality of materials seems to have fallen off a little, but not by much. Also, I miss the big chrome front end on the old model.
Other than that, I loved this diesel Touareg.
EXECUTIVE EDITOR ROGER HART: I’m with Wes on this one--I absolutely love this engine. The 3.0-liter turbocharged diesel V6 is perfectly matched for the size and weight of the Touareg. No gasoline engine in the VW lineup would deliver the kind of oomph this thing delivers. Right now, the Germans are the only ones who are putting diesels in sport-utes, where they really, really make sense. While I only drove it 120 miles during my first go-around, my guess is that the highway range is about 700-plus miles, based on the instant fuel economy I was seeing and the size of the fuel tank, which is just more than 26 gallons. This makes it perfect for any long-distance road trip, or for someone like me who commutes 100-plus miles per day. Once a week fill-ups would be terrific.
And, I must say, I love engines in which the torque figure is higher than the horsepower (406 lb-ft vs. 225 hp).
I have liked the Touareg since it was launched. It’s a fun-to-drive sport-ute that is comfortable and quiet. And while I loved the first-gen car with the V10 diesel, which is sadly no longer sold here, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience in this new one.
I also had a weekend stint in the TDI, logged quite a few more miles and had a chance to fill it up. It returned an average of 26.1 mpg. If I were in the market to buy a sport-ute, this would be high on list.
NEWS EDITOR GREG MIGLIORE: This is a first-class people hauler packing an engine with an attitude and a well-appointed cabin. My main criticism: Would you pay almost $53,000 for a Volkswagen? For that kind of cash, I think you have to get some premium cache. And VW doesn’t carry the reputation of a true luxury brand--at least not a $53,000 luxury brand.
That being said, if the name doesn’t matter to you, this Touareg is seriously loaded. It has everything: great materials that look and feel high-quality, strong seat burners, satellite radio, a rear camera--it’s outfitted to the nines. This panoramic sunroof is a fun feature, too. It lets in more air than a conventional setup and would be a blast in the summer. Heck, I enjoyed it on a 53-degree evening drive home with the heater cranked. The sound system was silky to my ears, too.
The spotlight feature in this ute is the TDI. It’s strong, serves up loads of torque low in the band and launches briskly. Almost anything can be accomplished at 3,500 rpm or less, and this rig really takes off further up in the band. I noticed this engine does have a slow first step. There’s a bit of lag--ever so slightly--upon takeoff. And the throttle is a bit squishy. Perhaps it’s the turbo or maybe it’s that so much power is spinning low in the band, but it is noticeable. The eight-speed transmission is smooth, and that is a premium feature VW deserves props for implementing.
The steering is light off-center at slower speeds but tightens up into turns and at higher rates of travel. There’s a nice level of variance that’s appropriate to whatever the driver is trying to accomplish. Consumers would like the feel, and enthusiasts would appreciate the tuning. The suspension is well-done, cushioning road imperfections with little quarrel. There’s minimal dive during braking, and the vehicle has a controlled feel.
The Touareg TDI in luxury trim is a complete effort and execution by Volkswagen that’s impressive in its scope and attention to detail. Do the math--all of the specs add up to the sticker; no argument there. But this VW ute doesn’t have the intangible quality that makes it stand out at the curb. It’s a birthright for Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Cadillac. It’s a tougher sell for Volkswagen.
By DALE JEWETT on 4/06/2011 Ford has introduced a diesel-powered Focus in Europe, called ECOnetic, that gets a claimed 80 mpg. It uses technology such as engine stop/start, low-rolling-resistance tires, brake regeneration and active grille shutters to get that number.
Under the hood is a turbocharged 1.6-liter diesel, mated to a six-speed manual transmission. The engine is rated at 105 hp.
Of course, there are a few asterisks.
First, that fuel-economy number is calculated using imperial gallons, which are 20 percent larger than U.S. gallons.
And the fuel economy is calculated using the British test standard, which has virtually no relation to the method the EPA uses to calculate mileage for U.S. cars.
If we did run the Focus ECOnetic through the U.S. test, the result would likely be fuel economy in the high 40s or low 50s--about two-thirds the U.K. rating.
And finally, with various costs and taxes, a Focus ECOnetic would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $35,000 here. At that price, there are plenty of hybrids to consider
...."And finally, with various costs and taxes, a Focus ECOnetic would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $35,000 here. At that price, there are plenty of hybrids to consider. "....
At almost 2 x's the price of my "unreliable" 03 TDI @ 159,000 miles it (did has and remains) makes all the sense in the world to....KEEP. (north of 500,000 miles)
So when are we going to get a non German ($$$$$) vehicle that's reasonably priced? It seems insane that of all of the manufacturers except the Germans are dropping the ball on this one.
The second that there is a non-VW option, I'll buy it.
Right now, the Germans are the only ones who are putting diesels in sport-utes, where they really, really make sense.
The 2011 Touareg TDI is at the top of my current list. My wife wants to give her granddaughter the option to buy our Sequoia. When and if that happens we shall see. I would prefer a bit smaller ute with a 4 cylinder diesel. That does not look like it will happen in my lifetime. So I will go for what is out there. Four good options right now. I like the looks of the Touareg far more than the BMW, MB or Audi offerings. And its first cousin is the $100k Porsche Cayenne. It is a bit pricey but you get what you pay for. A luxury SUV that will get 30 MPG on the highway and is capable of winning the toughest off road race on earth. The Touareg won 1-2-3 at the Dakar this year. Beat out a tough team from BMW and left all the rest in the dust. That included lots of entries from Toyota.
This, we agree on except somewhat predictably (as you guys are getting to know me little by little) bring it without being a hybrid. This is absolutely mandatory to keep costs down and a rein on complexity. This is a must to ensure millions of sales.
Since Ford has kept the date you can actually 'buy a new Focus' so elusive, they should have used "we are putting the finishing touches on the 2.0 turbo diesel that the new 2012 Focus will offer to all of North America" as a worthy excuse. and: "(For real world economy, consumers in cold climates, please completely disregard the corrupted EPA mileage figures that you will read throughout the country and simply consult the internet to learn what the REAL WORLD numbers are. At Ford, we are EXTREMELY confident that those figures will more than justify the slight premium this idiotic nation insists on collusively charging for diesel in the ruse that seems to be being gobbled up by all the hybrid gullys out there. In fact we are SO confident we will offer a money back warranty if a predetermined reasonable MPG figure is not reached. Yes, we are THAT confident.)"
That way they can be the first to put their money where their mouth is and gain sales away from VW in that class of car. It is fairly generally accepted lately that more people perceive the Ford product to be more reliable than VW, so all they would have to do is make the Focus ride as well/quietly as the Cruze, price it 2k less than the TDI, (should be easy enough to do) offer the special return wty (handle it the way Saturn did) and then let word of mouth spread like wildfire.
The bonus to this? They would beat GM to market with the Cruze diesel, and we all know that if you build a good car, the first to market always has the lead. To keep it, all you have to do is keep building a quality product.
Eventually, that word-of-mouth I mentioned will spread to the point that other manufacturers will realize they too have to bring a diesel to NA market. With consumer pressure put on government to quit fudging and make more fairly and honest targets of emission levels with RUG, which will lower the price of diesel (they should make it less than RUG) then eventually NA too will finally get that negative GM Olds diesel rep and your average city bus-induced negative diesel monkey off their backs that is going on THREE! decades old now, once and for all.. And the ney sayers can ninny all they want to. Water, ducks, back. I say; numbers, proof, pudding.
Well I'd be tickled pink to push 1,000,000 miles ! But for the short term 500,000 miles. Just around the "literal" bend is 200,000 miles. After 8 years in the environment 24/7, I had to bite the bullet and buy a new two piece CAR bra. The old one is tearing in STRATEGIC places.
Be careful. Those "car bras" sometimes cause more harm than good especially when people don't remove them often enough to clean under and wax.
Dirt and grit gets under them and when they flap and move around on the road, it's like using sandpaper on the paint. In hot areas they can really build up enough extra heat to damage the paint.
When we took in trades that had bras, we always looked under them.
Thanks for the heads up ! You are absolutely correct.
Collectively I have 255,000 miles and so far so good. I used to wash one in the bath tub every now and again but that became too much like work. (NEVER let the wife see the bath tub after you do this) Now I just make sure I vacuum the flannel liner that faces the paint and it seems to do the trick.
I know this is probably WAY off topic, but the area that is breaking down (vertical areas) seems odd to me, as the horizontal surfaces that would seem to take both environmental and operational damage is just FINE. But then, I am glad for the wear and tear on these barriers than on the front of the cars leading edge surfaces it protects. I am sure it would cost way more to fix, if I didn't have the barriers.
Not to drift even farther afield, but again I think the idea of a long lasting diesel, really has had a domino/trickle down effect on NON diesel issues and parts. To make a long story short, you are replacing much cheaper (than a new car) replacement parts and not paying ( the almost now) 10% taxation on a new and/or used car. (most everybody has paid this already @ least once) New car yearly registration fees are onerously high, and promises to go back to an asset taxation- aka an even MORE onerous level, so is new car insurance, etc, etc. So for example, just the taxation on any new car I would want ,would buy me (literally) a brand new crate TDI engine.
Since I was raised "old school", really I can understand a lot of folks thinking it absolutely CRAZY to do 500,000 miiles to 1 M miles on a PASSENGER CAR!!!! ??? Old school: look for a buyer when your car is putting on 75,000 miles and if you aint got it sold by 100,000 miles, you are now the cinderella/fella !!!
just the taxation on any new car I would want ,would buy me (literally) a brand new crate TDI engine.
That's a great way of thinking that hadn't occurred to me. The replacement new car around here would likely cost $25k so the tax would be around $1,250 I think.
That's a big payment toward a new engine or transmission, not even calculating the insurance and other savings. I'm going to keep that in mind when the time comes. Makes me happy that I spent the $2.50 the other washing the dang thing.
Speaking of stimulate the local economies, I also use local small business's to do the parts replacement. Money spent locally has an 8 to 1 multiplier effect.
Again not to get too far afield, but it is truly amazing how just how far scheduled (unscheduled also) cleaning goes for longevity.
I just lined up a local mechanic earlier this week. He's too backed up to see me for a few weeks though (time to put a bit of new transmission fluid in). This guy doesn't even have a sign on his garage.
Have no idea if anyone here works on passenger diesels; not a lot of shops around.
With that kind of a backlog, he's probably a good guy.
Hopefully he has all of the expensive tools and equipment it takes to work on today's cars. A lot of good shops throw in the towel when faced with advancing technology and cars that are miserable to work on.
That could be an issue. He's a younger guy so probably scanner savvy, but all the rigs around here are Detroit iron. But even Detroit iron has computers these days. My friend with a newer Pilot has to drive a ways for dealer service.
"DIESEL" Shop wise, it is far and few in between. It right now is more of a word of mouth kind of thing. VW dealers are almost looked upon with close to total derision. There are a smaller number of VW diesel owners who do get togethers for more specific diesel issues (TB/WP changes etc. ), and or visit ACE VW diesel mechanics, aka guru's.
But then on the other hand, almost the same thing can be said for gassers, as you are also indicating. I just recently did a "major tune" on a Civic gasser (some details in other threads)
I probably did an inordinate amount of research to find an independent to do a timing belt and water pump change and valve adjustment. This is a tad more technical, time consuming and arcane. However, it is very important to smooth running and longevity. I was lucky to find one literally within walking distance to my home.
Almost any other shop to DIY can do the tire rotation, oil and filter swap, ATF swap, brake pads and rotors changes, coolant and thermostat swap, spark plugs swap, etc., etc.
There is a peace of mind bringing it to the shop and person's one trusts. More importantly they will do a GREAT (overall) job and probably at lower prices.
You ask why anyone would want a diesel car when diesel fuel is 4.25 and gas is 3.90 or whatever.
One answer is that some people use arithmetic to see which is the better bargain and/or fuel cost per mile for the cars they have or the cars they are comparing: D=Diesel price G=Gasoline price (for me, 87 octane usually, but 91 all summer)) MPGD=mpg of diesel car you are comparing MPGG=mpg of gasoline car you are comparing
To see which is more cost effective, consider to look at cost to drive 1000 miles, from NYC to Orlando FL let's say:
1000*(D/MPGD) = 1000*4.15/44 = $94 to drive my diesel to FL 1000*(G/MPGG) = 1000*3.99/21 = $190 to drive my gasser to FL
To see the future (next month?) , we can maybe add a few dollars to both G & D prices and watch the fuel-cost-gap widen, depending whichever cars you are comparing.
Enjoy the comparison fuel-cost-shopping, former honda seller. I like hondas - I owned a few honda civics before they blimped out and became bigger than Accords. For my next car i'm comparing chevy cruze diesel, chevy cruze eco, and chevy volt! Also maybe Chevy Sonic & VW Polo Diesel... Working the Volt's electricity cost into the cost formula is less obvious. Also one might be interested to compare total cost per 1000 miles as well as fuel cost per 1000 miles, and compare those numbers. l - see Edmunds total cost of ownership info, divide by 100 and that will resemble the cost per 1000 miles.
(my home state state has the highest electricity cost in USA, last time I looked, so it's not looking so good for volt.)
the touareg v6 tdi is an attractive vehicle to me too , senor ga-gri-ce.
for the same $ as VW TDI 2-rag you can get into an actual Porsche Cayenne if you chill on the options, and maybe can get a stickshift too. That might be worth driving a gasser, eh? Hypothetically. (Seems like stickshift cayennes aren't actually available/orderable in USA?) :shades:
commuting in rush-hour barely counts as driving. But that's where prius shines - in stop & go traffic. Prius is at its best when it's stopped. This is a hint that it may not be optimized to be much of a *CAR*.
I suppose i would consider Prius for commuting in awful rush-hour traffic. I do enjoy generating electricity and regen brakes and all sorts of nifty technology, and find civic hybrid and prius fun for those thngs But for actually enjoying *driving*, Prius is especially ruled out - it's absolutely horrid as a 'drivers car', at least for my kind of driver.
Porsche could conceivably offer the TDI in their Cayenne. The extra cost to get the Porsche version would be justified. I am guessing based on actual mileage of diesel vehicles I have looked into, the Touareg TDI should easily top 30 MPG out on the open road. That would be close to twice what I can get with a decent sized gas SUV. I would have a hard time giving up my Sequoia for any gasser right now. Most I would consider require Premium which in my part of CA sells for the same price as diesel. Though I would enjoy driving the Cayenne gasser except the extra times I had to stop for gas. If it handles better than the BMW X5D I took for a test drive, it must be one heck of an SUV.
One 2011 Touareg TDI owner has entered his mileage on fuel economy website. He claims 27 MPG overall. Not bad for an SUV rated to tow 7700 lbs of trailer with 400+ ft lbs of torque.
I doubt the Touareg hybrid that should be available soon, will get better than 21-22 MPG over all on premium. Not interested in the least.
CA snow driving rules are a bit skitzoid. The long story short, a lot of CA drivers really do not know how to drive in snow, or more particularly in the mountains. Basically lack of knowledge and experiences can result in getting stuck, freezing to death or weather related accidents. So as a result in everything but category one conditions, SUV's are allowed without snow chains. Conditionally, (aka chain controls to signs) cars are required to don snow chains, even if they have so called snow to winter tires. I know that you personally understand the ramifications and or the rules or both, but if others don't, just fire away.
So on the one hand, SUV's are vilified, but for winter driving even some LEO's use em.
On an anecdotal note, I spent the better part of a week in South Lake Tahoe (Heavenly Valley) CA. We were trying to cherry pick ski days. We heard through the grape vine just before the day we arrived they had 77 mph winds resulting in MISERABLE conditions and ski chair shut downs. The first leg we went up and back in a Acura MDX. I basically found it requires premium. The driver said it was posting 21 mpg in the mountains, even as the round trip posted 23 mpg. The second leg we went up and back in a 03 TDI Jetta. It posted 48 mpg. As Elias has said, anyone should do the math here to see cost per mile drive fuel. Yes ULSD is more expensive than either RUG or PUG.
I test drove the MDX back in 2007. I did not like the seats at all. Felt like I was sitting on hard cardboard. If they offered it in diesel I would give it another look see. The X5 I drove did not have seats that compared with the Mercedes or my Sequoia. My criteria is in this order. Comfort Ride Handling Range at least 600 miles mileage safety not an issue as big brother controls that.
At this time the VW Touareg is on top for range with 739 miles highway according to the EPA. I would say 800 miles on a tank is well within the vehicles capability. YMMV. I cannot give an opinion on comfort ride or handling. It does sound like the pros are very impressed.
Yes, I have been rethinking a TDI Touareg for a while now. It is my opinion the redesigned 2011 makes improvements to an already great design. Basically for me getting one would be a 15+ year decision.
While I do like the 94/96 TLC's, I really have always wanted them as TDI's. To boot, given the skitzoid rules, cars are really no longer spec'ed for real snow chains. Just one "malfunction" with even whimpy cable "chains" can literally cost 100's if not 1,000's of dollars in repairs.
While I imagine some folks need snow chains, I just avoid places they are trying to force their use. I spent 37 years in AK driving on every kind of nasty snow and ice you can imagine and only once wished I had chains. Most of that time I had two wheel drive vehicles. Common sense driving will get you through more times than chains.
Another plus for the Touareg. I did not realize it beat out the other SUVs in the sector.
The 2011 Volkswagen Touareg ranks 1 out of 16 Luxury Midsize SUVs. This ranking is based on our analysis of 11 published reviews and test drives of the Volkswagen Touareg, and our analysis of reliability and safety data.
Prius is at its best when it's stopped. This is a hint that it may not be optimized to be much of a *CAR*.
Couldn't have said it any better myself. Well done.
The Pious is for those who prefer making lifestyle statements, preferably while not moving. Actual driving is a necessary evil in their world, and enjoying it is even worse.
Indeed the Prius' "advantage" is being "off" 20% of the time (due to hybrid) . It is the perfect choice should one only operate the majority of the miles where only the hybrid is on. So for example, in relation to a real competitor; such as Corolla/Civic, which my 04 Civic gets 38-42 mpg, a 20% advantage would mean the 04 Prius would get 45.6 to 50.4 mpg. This is starkly in the ballpark of what folks have reported on fuel economy.gov One real practical question: it worth the 7,000 to 12,0000 + premium over the Corolla/Civic ? Another; when is a reasonable B/E? That math over 120,000 miles indicates app 526 gals saved. Even at todays' prices RUG 4.15 that is 2,182 dollars "saved". So the earliest quick and dirty BE is 384,968 miles. In my case, that is 683,923 miles.
You left out the extra expense for paying more for a diesel car in the first place. Add the odors, lack of diesel in a lot of areas and the possible difficulty of finding someone capable or willing to work on one jsut doesn't add up...to ME.
I suppose the diesel fans can find a lot of ways to justify their feelings and in some cases, I'm sure they make sense...to THEM!
I probably did as much, no actually more, if not more due diligence finding a good independent shop to do a Honda Civic's T/B W/P change, valve adjust and timing, than I did with the Jetta TDI. Interestingly enough while the price was very similar, the Civic timing belt and water pump procedure took far longer than the TDI's. It certainly looked more complicated than the TDI's procedure, and I observed easily 15 TB/WP changes, and 90,000 miles before needing mine.
Indeed not many independent shops want or can service or are equipped to handle the Prius. While I have been doing business with and trust my local Toyota dealer for app 24 years, I have read in passing many others have poor experiences with THEIR local dealerships. I am sure the cost to service Prius are much higher than for example, the Corolla.
It's a conspiracy. The fact is there is a shortage of high tech mechanics. My understanding is the dealers get into bidding wars over the good ones. Why work in an indy when you can make $100k plus in a dealership with all the latest technology?
The advantage is that you can work for yourself and sleep well at night knowing you were able to treat your customers right without a bean counter telling you what you can't do for the customer.
A Prius (2004 or 2011) has much more interior people and cargo space than a Civic/Corolla...about the same as a Accord/Camry, so that are closer vehicles to compare. Considering a Prius will cost no more than an Accord/Camry, I don't see any "hybrid premium."
Also, according to fueleconomy.gov that you mentioned, the average MPG for a 2004 Corolla/Civic is about 33mpg, not 38-42mpg. Maybe you're only looking at the highway figure.
That is if you are a one man indy shop. If you are good and honest you will be swamped with work. Then you will need to hire and that is where the rub comes. unskilled mechanics (oil changers) are a dime a dozen. With all the hassles in having employees you need a big shop to justify all the government regulations. Workman's Comp, taxes, SS, Medicare. That means you need a bean counter and soon you are back looking like a big dealer. The reason I mention that is my favorite shop here in San Diego, back in the early 1980s, was a two stall father and son operation. Now it is 10 big bays and rip-off prices with sometimes sub standard workmanship.
In fairness back in the 1980s you did not need $1000s of high tech diagnostic equipment. It is a conspiracy by the automakers & dealers to squeeze out the indy shops. We are the losers.
And diesel shops are even more scarce at least around here. Best bet is to get a 7 year Bumper to bumper warranty and get rid of the vehicle before the warranty expires.
I had two good indys' in Anchorage. One shut down because he could never take off work, even though he paced his customers. The other guy just bailed to Seattle. There's two small shops with good reputations near me now; one solo, and the other guy has a helper/gofer and maybe another mechanic. Haven't asked but he does advertise that he works on trucks so he may do diesel (yeah, he actually has a sign on his shop. )
Today's cars have to run clean and produce good gas mileage while protecting their occupants from harm.
All of these government mandated and customer demanded items add nothing but complexity to today's cars.
If you ask any mechanic/technician on the verge of retiring if he would reccommend becoming a mechanic/technician today that person would soend an hour trying to talk you into doing something else.
The shortage of qualified technicians will only continue to increase.
Considering a Prius will cost no more than an Accord/Camry, I don't see any "hybrid premium."
That is not true at all. A base Camry automatic has a TMV in So CA of $20,043 and there are 191 to choose from. The base Prius is $22,880 and only 2 available in all of So CA. With sales tax on the difference it is a $3113 premium. That is a lot of extra gas and way more comfortable car.
For a few dollars more you can get a real car like the VW Sportswagen TDI and get the highest mileage car on the road by actual verification.
The shortage of qualified technicians will only continue to increase.
Isn't that exactly what I said???? The conspiracy was tongue in cheek for Steve's benefit. I don't think a small indy shop can survive with the new complex vehicles.
It is a rarity to see a Prius commute car use that interior people and cargo space. Indeed our 2/3 person commute (Civic) is VERY rare. There is not doubt that one of the major reasons (around here) is the stickered Prius can use the commute lane solo. This is FAR from the spirit and intent of why the so called"commute" lanes were formed and justified in the first place. What the so called commuter lanes have morfed into are voluntary toll lanes for less than 2 folks.
No, I am just reporting what a 04 Civic gets in the real world, mind numbing slogging commute. If I got what you said, I would no longer consider it an economy car, or there was some serious degradation going on.
Since we are talking diesel, the 03 TDI gets 48-52 mpg in the exact same destination A to B. or 26.3% to 23.8% more. Again keep in mind the comparisons between a Civic and Jetta are apples to oranges. A like for like model comparison 03 TDI, 1.8T and 2.0 is the real apples to apples comparison.
Indeed what you are saying is almost absolutely true. It is almost like the Obama adminiistation's call for MORE small business (jobs) is really a GUTTING of small businesses. They of course gave (Fed State, County and probably local) gave a $ 935 M subsidy (yes folks just shy of a BILLION dollars) to a larger ( located ... locally) business that has almost no light at the end of the tunnel, in terms of profitability. !!! Now what have they done for small businesses? Ah, well ...they form "blue ribbon" committees that will essentially after YEARS more of study, will come to the conclusion they should roll back some to all of the (thousand slashes) legislation, rules and regulations that drove them out in the first place !!! Now the odds of getting those recommendations passed are slim to none.
This is odd in that there are even more space of ALL stripes to START a small business or a large one for that matter.
More to the point, the folks around here are very lucky in that there are literally one to two dozen really top notched independent shops. Of course there are "specialists", which can narrow the focus'es a bit more. We actually have the two dealerships in town that just happen to represent the two cars that I have. However the good news is one that I am very familar with has a couple mechanics that really do ALL makes. (Presumably to service their used car inventory)
The independent diesel shop is actually in another town, but is directly on a light rail corridor, so I can take that to drop off and pick up IF I have to. Again another reason to keep a DIESEL car multiple 100,000 miles, even a Honda Civic gasser. Luckily the parts that require so called "diesel" expertise are at the 100,000 to 120,000 miles marker. To me a 120,000 miles "major" tune on the 04 Civic shows almost any car is designed to go 120,000+ miles. It just takes a bit of renewal for the NEXT 120,000 miles (240,000 to 250,000 miles. The new ones have way too many barriers: costly, and complex technology, copyrights, etc, last far too short and are of little real benefit and costs many more cents per mile driven.
Comments
In that context, I can see and understand where (my) 50-62 mpg sounds like utter and complete.... BS.
But then that was what the bru ha ha was about for the 2004 Prius owners. I mean I TOTALLY believe one can get the 60 C and 50 h. But really, what the 2004 Prius owners that threaten the CALS and got the perfectly fine 35 year old EPA test CHANGED was they were only concerned what THEY got and not the theoretical 60/50 mpg.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110406/CARREVIEWS/110409939
Published on 4/06/2011
EDITOR WES RAYNAL: I love this engine in this 2011 Volkswagen Touareg TDI. It works really well and has oodles of power and torque for instant thrust. I was also impressed with the way the car “handles,” and yes, I put that in quotes because after all, it weighs 5,000 pounds. But it doesn’t roll nearly as much as other big SUVs, in my opinion. It’s almost sporty for an SUV. The chassis offers good feedback from the road, too. Actually, it’s all a pretty remarkable driving experience, again for a car this big.
The interior is nice, though it doesn’t seem quite as nice as that in the model this replaces. The quality of materials seems to have fallen off a little, but not by much. Also, I miss the big chrome front end on the old model.
Other than that, I loved this diesel Touareg.
EXECUTIVE EDITOR ROGER HART: I’m with Wes on this one--I absolutely love this engine. The 3.0-liter turbocharged diesel V6 is perfectly matched for the size and weight of the Touareg. No gasoline engine in the VW lineup would deliver the kind of oomph this thing delivers. Right now, the Germans are the only ones who are putting diesels in sport-utes, where they really, really make sense. While I only drove it 120 miles during my first go-around, my guess is that the highway range is about 700-plus miles, based on the instant fuel economy I was seeing and the size of the fuel tank, which is just more than 26 gallons. This makes it perfect for any long-distance road trip, or for someone like me who commutes 100-plus miles per day. Once a week fill-ups would be terrific.
And, I must say, I love engines in which the torque figure is higher than the horsepower (406 lb-ft vs. 225 hp).
I have liked the Touareg since it was launched. It’s a fun-to-drive sport-ute that is comfortable and quiet. And while I loved the first-gen car with the V10 diesel, which is sadly no longer sold here, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience in this new one.
I also had a weekend stint in the TDI, logged quite a few more miles and had a chance to fill it up. It returned an average of 26.1 mpg. If I were in the market to buy a sport-ute, this would be high on list.
NEWS EDITOR GREG MIGLIORE: This is a first-class people hauler packing an engine with an attitude and a well-appointed cabin. My main criticism: Would you pay almost $53,000 for a Volkswagen? For that kind of cash, I think you have to get some premium cache. And VW doesn’t carry the reputation of a true luxury brand--at least not a $53,000 luxury brand.
That being said, if the name doesn’t matter to you, this Touareg is seriously loaded. It has everything: great materials that look and feel high-quality, strong seat burners, satellite radio, a rear camera--it’s outfitted to the nines. This panoramic sunroof is a fun feature, too. It lets in more air than a conventional setup and would be a blast in the summer. Heck, I enjoyed it on a 53-degree evening drive home with the heater cranked. The sound system was silky to my ears, too.
The spotlight feature in this ute is the TDI. It’s strong, serves up loads of torque low in the band and launches briskly. Almost anything can be accomplished at 3,500 rpm or less, and this rig really takes off further up in the band. I noticed this engine does have a slow first step. There’s a bit of lag--ever so slightly--upon takeoff. And the throttle is a bit squishy. Perhaps it’s the turbo or maybe it’s that so much power is spinning low in the band, but it is noticeable. The eight-speed transmission is smooth, and that is a premium feature VW deserves props for implementing.
The steering is light off-center at slower speeds but tightens up into turns and at higher rates of travel. There’s a nice level of variance that’s appropriate to whatever the driver is trying to accomplish. Consumers would like the feel, and enthusiasts would appreciate the tuning. The suspension is well-done, cushioning road imperfections with little quarrel. There’s minimal dive during braking, and the vehicle has a controlled feel.
The Touareg TDI in luxury trim is a complete effort and execution by Volkswagen that’s impressive in its scope and attention to detail. Do the math--all of the specs add up to the sticker; no argument there. But this VW ute doesn’t have the intangible quality that makes it stand out at the curb. It’s a birthright for Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Cadillac. It’s a tougher sell for Volkswagen.
2011 Volkswagen Touareg TDI Lux
Base Price: $52,620
As-Tested Price: $52,620
Drivetrain: 3.0-liter turbocharged diesel V6; AWD, eight-speed automatic
Output: 225 hp @ 3,500-4,000 rpm, 406 lb-ft @ 1,750-2,250 rpm
Curb Weight: 4,974 lb
Fuel Economy (EPA/AW): 22/26.1 mpg
Options: None
Stupid, Ford !!!!
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110406/GREEN/110409933
By DALE JEWETT on 4/06/2011
Ford has introduced a diesel-powered Focus in Europe, called ECOnetic, that gets a claimed 80 mpg. It uses technology such as engine stop/start, low-rolling-resistance tires, brake regeneration and active grille shutters to get that number.
Under the hood is a turbocharged 1.6-liter diesel, mated to a six-speed manual transmission. The engine is rated at 105 hp.
Of course, there are a few asterisks.
First, that fuel-economy number is calculated using imperial gallons, which are 20 percent larger than U.S. gallons.
And the fuel economy is calculated using the British test standard, which has virtually no relation to the method the EPA uses to calculate mileage for U.S. cars.
If we did run the Focus ECOnetic through the U.S. test, the result would likely be fuel economy in the high 40s or low 50s--about two-thirds the U.K. rating.
And finally, with various costs and taxes, a Focus ECOnetic would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $35,000 here. At that price, there are plenty of hybrids to consider
At almost 2 x's the price of my "unreliable" 03 TDI @ 159,000 miles it (did has and remains) makes all the sense in the world to....KEEP. (north of 500,000 miles)
The second that there is a non-VW option, I'll buy it.
The 2011 Touareg TDI is at the top of my current list. My wife wants to give her granddaughter the option to buy our Sequoia. When and if that happens we shall see. I would prefer a bit smaller ute with a 4 cylinder diesel. That does not look like it will happen in my lifetime. So I will go for what is out there. Four good options right now. I like the looks of the Touareg far more than the BMW, MB or Audi offerings. And its first cousin is the $100k Porsche Cayenne. It is a bit pricey but you get what you pay for. A luxury SUV that will get 30 MPG on the highway and is capable of winning the toughest off road race on earth. The Touareg won 1-2-3 at the Dakar this year. Beat out a tough team from BMW and left all the rest in the dust. That included lots of entries from Toyota.
http://www.dakar.com/dakar/2011/us/stage-13/rankings/overall-cars-page-1.html#an- cre
Since Ford has kept the date you can actually 'buy a new Focus' so elusive, they should have used "we are putting the finishing touches on the 2.0 turbo diesel that the new 2012 Focus will offer to all of North America" as a worthy excuse. and:
"(For real world economy, consumers in cold climates, please completely disregard the corrupted EPA mileage figures that you will read throughout the country and simply consult the internet to learn what the REAL WORLD numbers are. At Ford, we are EXTREMELY confident that those figures will more than justify the slight premium this idiotic nation insists on collusively charging for diesel in the ruse that seems to be being gobbled up by all the hybrid gullys out there. In fact we are SO confident we will offer a money back warranty if a predetermined reasonable MPG figure is not reached. Yes, we are THAT confident.)"
That way they can be the first to put their money where their mouth is and gain sales away from VW in that class of car. It is fairly generally accepted lately that more people perceive the Ford product to be more reliable than VW, so all they would have to do is make the Focus ride as well/quietly as the Cruze, price it 2k less than the TDI, (should be easy enough to do) offer the special return wty (handle it the way Saturn did) and then let word of mouth spread like wildfire.
The bonus to this? They would beat GM to market with the Cruze diesel, and we all know that if you build a good car, the first to market always has the lead. To keep it, all you have to do is keep building a quality product.
Eventually, that word-of-mouth I mentioned will spread to the point that other manufacturers will realize they too have to bring a diesel to NA market. With consumer pressure put on government to quit fudging and make more fairly and honest targets of emission levels with RUG, which will lower the price of diesel (they should make it less than RUG) then eventually NA too will finally get that negative GM Olds diesel rep and your average city bus-induced negative diesel monkey off their backs that is going on THREE! decades old now, once and for all..
And the ney sayers can ninny all they want to.
Water, ducks, back.
I say; numbers, proof, pudding.
Sam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBmDH1sON3o
Dirt and grit gets under them and when they flap and move around on the road, it's like using sandpaper on the paint. In hot areas they can really build up enough extra heat to damage the paint.
When we took in trades that had bras, we always looked under them.
Collectively I have 255,000 miles and so far so good. I used to wash one in the bath tub every now and again but that became too much like work. (NEVER let the wife see the bath tub after you do this) Now I just make sure I vacuum the flannel liner that faces the paint and it seems to do the trick.
Not to drift even farther afield, but again I think the idea of a long lasting diesel, really has had a domino/trickle down effect on NON diesel issues and parts. To make a long story short, you are replacing much cheaper (than a new car) replacement parts and not paying ( the almost now) 10% taxation on a new and/or used car. (most everybody has paid this already @ least once) New car yearly registration fees are onerously high, and promises to go back to an asset taxation- aka an even MORE onerous level, so is new car insurance, etc, etc. So for example, just the taxation on any new car I would want ,would buy me (literally) a brand new crate TDI engine.
Since I was raised "old school", really I can understand a lot of folks thinking it absolutely CRAZY to do 500,000 miiles to 1 M miles on a PASSENGER CAR!!!! ??? Old school: look for a buyer when your car is putting on 75,000 miles and if you aint got it sold by 100,000 miles, you are now the cinderella/fella !!!
That's a great way of thinking that hadn't occurred to me. The replacement new car around here would likely cost $25k so the tax would be around $1,250 I think.
That's a big payment toward a new engine or transmission, not even calculating the insurance and other savings. I'm going to keep that in mind when the time comes. Makes me happy that I spent the $2.50 the other washing the dang thing.
Again not to get too far afield, but it is truly amazing how just how far scheduled (unscheduled also) cleaning goes for longevity.
Have no idea if anyone here works on passenger diesels; not a lot of shops around.
Hopefully he has all of the expensive tools and equipment it takes to work on today's cars. A lot of good shops throw in the towel when faced with advancing technology and cars that are miserable to work on.
But then on the other hand, almost the same thing can be said for gassers, as you are also indicating. I just recently did a "major tune" on a Civic gasser (some details in other threads)
I probably did an inordinate amount of research to find an independent to do a timing belt and water pump change and valve adjustment. This is a tad more technical, time consuming and arcane. However, it is very important to smooth running and longevity. I was lucky to find one literally within walking distance to my home.
Almost any other shop to DIY can do the tire rotation, oil and filter swap, ATF swap, brake pads and rotors changes, coolant and thermostat swap, spark plugs swap, etc., etc.
There is a peace of mind bringing it to the shop and person's one trusts. More importantly they will do a GREAT (overall) job and probably at lower prices.
You ask why anyone would want a diesel car when diesel fuel is 4.25 and gas is 3.90 or whatever.
One answer is that some people use arithmetic to see which is the better bargain and/or fuel cost per mile for the cars they have or the cars they are comparing:
D=Diesel price
G=Gasoline price (for me, 87 octane usually, but 91 all summer))
MPGD=mpg of diesel car you are comparing
MPGG=mpg of gasoline car you are comparing
To see which is more cost effective, consider to look at cost to drive 1000 miles, from NYC to Orlando FL let's say:
1000*(D/MPGD) = 1000*4.15/44 = $94 to drive my diesel to FL
1000*(G/MPGG) = 1000*3.99/21 = $190 to drive my gasser to FL
To see the future (next month?) , we can maybe add a few dollars to both G & D prices and watch the fuel-cost-gap widen, depending whichever cars you are comparing.
Enjoy the comparison fuel-cost-shopping, former honda seller. I like hondas - I owned a few honda civics before they blimped out and became bigger than Accords.
For my next car i'm comparing chevy cruze diesel, chevy cruze eco, and chevy volt!
Also maybe Chevy Sonic & VW Polo Diesel...
Working the Volt's electricity cost into the cost formula is less obvious.
Also one might be interested to compare total cost per 1000 miles as well as fuel cost per 1000 miles, and compare those numbers. l - see Edmunds total cost of ownership info, divide by 100 and that will resemble the cost per 1000 miles.
(my home state state has the highest electricity cost in USA, last time I looked, so it's not looking so good for volt.)
for the same $ as VW TDI 2-rag you can get into an actual Porsche Cayenne if you chill on the options, and maybe can get a stickshift too.
That might be worth driving a gasser, eh? Hypothetically.
(Seems like stickshift cayennes aren't actually available/orderable in USA?)
:shades:
But that's where prius shines - in stop & go traffic.
Prius is at its best when it's stopped.
This is a hint that it may not be optimized to be much of a *CAR*.
I suppose i would consider Prius for commuting in awful rush-hour traffic.
I do enjoy generating electricity and regen brakes and all sorts of nifty technology, and find civic hybrid and prius fun for those thngs
But for actually enjoying *driving*, Prius is especially ruled out - it's absolutely horrid as a 'drivers car', at least for my kind of driver.
One 2011 Touareg TDI owner has entered his mileage on fuel economy website. He claims 27 MPG overall. Not bad for an SUV rated to tow 7700 lbs of trailer with 400+ ft lbs of torque.
I doubt the Touareg hybrid that should be available soon, will get better than 21-22 MPG over all on premium. Not interested in the least.
So on the one hand, SUV's are vilified, but for winter driving even some LEO's use em.
On an anecdotal note, I spent the better part of a week in South Lake Tahoe (Heavenly Valley) CA. We were trying to cherry pick ski days. We heard through the grape vine just before the day we arrived they had 77 mph winds resulting in MISERABLE conditions and ski chair shut downs. The first leg we went up and back in a Acura MDX. I basically found it requires premium. The driver said it was posting 21 mpg in the mountains, even as the round trip posted 23 mpg. The second leg we went up and back in a 03 TDI Jetta. It posted 48 mpg. As Elias has said, anyone should do the math here to see cost per mile drive fuel. Yes ULSD is more expensive than either RUG or PUG.
I test drove the MDX back in 2007. I did not like the seats at all. Felt like I was sitting on hard cardboard. If they offered it in diesel I would give it another look see. The X5 I drove did not have seats that compared with the Mercedes or my Sequoia. My criteria is in this order.
Comfort
Ride
Handling
Range at least 600 miles
mileage
safety not an issue as big brother controls that.
At this time the VW Touareg is on top for range with 739 miles highway according to the EPA. I would say 800 miles on a tank is well within the vehicles capability. YMMV. I cannot give an opinion on comfort ride or handling. It does sound like the pros are very impressed.
While I do like the 94/96 TLC's, I really have always wanted them as TDI's. To boot, given the skitzoid rules, cars are really no longer spec'ed for real snow chains. Just one "malfunction" with even whimpy cable "chains" can literally cost 100's if not 1,000's of dollars in repairs.
The 2011 Volkswagen Touareg ranks 1 out of 16 Luxury Midsize SUVs. This ranking is based on our analysis of 11 published reviews and test drives of the Volkswagen Touareg, and our analysis of reliability and safety data.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/rankings/Luxury-Midsize-SUVs/gr- id/overall/
This is a hint that it may not be optimized to be much of a *CAR*.
Couldn't have said it any better myself. Well done.
The Pious is for those who prefer making lifestyle statements, preferably while not moving. Actual driving is a necessary evil in their world, and enjoying it is even worse.
Just lie there and tolerate it.
You left out the extra expense for paying more for a diesel car in the first place. Add the odors, lack of diesel in a lot of areas and the possible difficulty of finding someone capable or willing to work on one jsut doesn't add up...to ME.
I suppose the diesel fans can find a lot of ways to justify their feelings and in some cases, I'm sure they make sense...to THEM!
Indeed not many independent shops want or can service or are equipped to handle the Prius. While I have been doing business with and trust my local Toyota dealer for app 24 years, I have read in passing many others have poor experiences with THEIR local dealerships. I am sure the cost to service Prius are much higher than for example, the Corolla.
Also, according to fueleconomy.gov that you mentioned, the average MPG for a 2004 Corolla/Civic is about 33mpg, not 38-42mpg. Maybe you're only looking at the highway figure.
In fairness back in the 1980s you did not need $1000s of high tech diagnostic equipment. It is a conspiracy by the automakers & dealers to squeeze out the indy shops. We are the losers.
And diesel shops are even more scarce at least around here. Best bet is to get a 7 year Bumper to bumper warranty and get rid of the vehicle before the warranty expires.
Last time I was at a dealer was around 1991.
Oh, give me a break!
Today's cars have to run clean and produce good gas mileage while protecting their occupants from harm.
All of these government mandated and customer demanded items add nothing but complexity to today's cars.
If you ask any mechanic/technician on the verge of retiring if he would reccommend becoming a mechanic/technician today that person would soend an hour trying to talk you into doing something else.
The shortage of qualified technicians will only continue to increase.
That is not true at all. A base Camry automatic has a TMV in So CA of $20,043 and there are 191 to choose from. The base Prius is $22,880 and only 2 available in all of So CA. With sales tax on the difference it is a $3113 premium. That is a lot of extra gas and way more comfortable car.
For a few dollars more you can get a real car like the VW Sportswagen TDI and get the highest mileage car on the road by actual verification.
Isn't that exactly what I said????
No, I am just reporting what a 04 Civic gets in the real world, mind numbing slogging commute. If I got what you said, I would no longer consider it an economy car, or there was some serious degradation going on.
Since we are talking diesel, the 03 TDI gets 48-52 mpg in the exact same destination A to B. or 26.3% to 23.8% more. Again keep in mind the comparisons between a Civic and Jetta are apples to oranges. A like for like model comparison 03 TDI, 1.8T and 2.0 is the real apples to apples comparison.
This is odd in that there are even more space of ALL stripes to START a small business or a large one for that matter.
More to the point, the folks around here are very lucky in that there are literally one to two dozen really top notched independent shops. Of course there are "specialists", which can narrow the focus'es a bit more. We actually have the two dealerships in town that just happen to represent the two cars that I have. However the good news is one that I am very familar with has a couple mechanics that really do ALL makes. (Presumably to service their used car inventory)
The independent diesel shop is actually in another town, but is directly on a light rail corridor, so I can take that to drop off and pick up IF I have to. Again another reason to keep a DIESEL car multiple 100,000 miles, even a Honda Civic gasser. Luckily the parts that require so called "diesel" expertise are at the 100,000 to 120,000 miles marker. To me a 120,000 miles "major" tune on the 04 Civic shows almost any car is designed to go 120,000+ miles. It just takes a bit of renewal for the NEXT 120,000 miles (240,000 to 250,000 miles. The new ones have way too many barriers: costly, and complex technology, copyrights, etc, last far too short and are of little real benefit and costs many more cents per mile driven.