Actually in the sense of I wish gassers were cheaper to run. Diesels even as they have the "rep" of being more expensive, are actually CHEAPER to run. In my case, GASSER (Civic) costs 56% MORE.
Again the real comparison is a VW Jetta TDI vs Camry Hybrid. Be that as it may, I just got the 04 Civic from the shop, but probably more importantly got the bill. :sick: So as you will probably guess (most folks would guess the opposite) LIKE for LIKE miles (120,000) the Civic was $485. MORE than the VW Jetta TDI or 81% more !!!! :surprise: But really no surprise !!!
Like miles (120,000 miles) , the Civic uses 38% more fuel (gals).
Like miles, the Civic costs 123% more for scheduled maintenance and repairs.
I should probably say it but it almost goes without saying: the Honda Civic (gasser) is considered one of the better and inexpensive to run economy cars !!
On the other hand, VW (TDI's) has been vilified almost at every level. :confuse:
Your "LOL" confirms this was meant to be a jab at new Jetta owners. Would it not have been more satisfying then, to have posted it under 2011 Jettas or did you feel you could insult more owners here, thereby making your mission more successful? Either way, IMHO, it wasn't very nice to do, mostly because of the way you did it. I failed to see any humor in it at all.
OK, but any recall is a pain in the rear that not only costs the owner financially (even though the actual recall is 'free) but is time consuming and usually not a fun or humorous event.
Thank you though for trying not to offend, even though you must realize that car ownership is a very personal thing? Off hand I can't think of a single circumstance whereby you could insult a car brand yet not insult that car brand's owner while doing so. Especially with a new car.
While I should express (feign actually) surprise at the almost MASSIVE silent to almost ZERO reaction to the side by side 120,000 miles comparison of a premium gasser economy (Honda Civic) car to a vilified diesel or a TDI, the silence is telling, yet no real surprise.
Like I have said if I had ANY axe to grind, it would be to have the gasser cost less to run.
Now, I look forward to another 120,000 miles (@ a future total 240,000 miles), before all this is due again.
But on the other hand, I expect another 120,000 miles to click away on the diesel (Again @ a future 240,000 total miles), ALBEIT at less cost, in FAVOR of the DIESEL (TDI).
Or the real truth being, not very many cross over the threshold, let alone able to and willing But then you are witnessing the real intent here. :lemon:
Diesel engines are made for the long haul. Everyone knows that.
I don't agree, at least not for passenger vehicles. We can go dig up that link about the million mile Volvo vs some Liberty CRDs that didn't make it to 70k.
The added gas savings would be nice, but my wife just had to increase her asthma meds, so diesel is a non-starter in this household.
In all fairness to the Liberty CRD, it was Chryslers poor attempt at making the Italian diesel engine clean enough for EPA standards. I followed that thread well over a year, and almost all the complaints were emissions equipment related. That and the transmission. I don't have a clue who built that. Those that posted from the EU with the same Liberty CRD were very happy with all aspects. If it can be screwed up our EPA/CARB bunch will get it done. No wonder we lag so far behind the rest of the world on mileage. If given good vehicles with high mileage diesel we could probably cut our imports by at least 25%.
Well, I'm not saying there are not instances of gas engines lasting that long - there obviously is.
With proper care, gasoline engines can go a long time.
I personally got 323,000 miles out of a 1980 Datsun/Nissan 200SX which was my second car. So I know gas engines can go a while - from personal experience.
But diesel engines ARE built with thicker steel, to withstand the higher compression levels.
A quick Google search found this:
Much longer engine life. Why? By it's nature, a diesel engine simply must be built much, much beefier than a gas engine. A gas engine has spark plugs which cause the fuel/air mixture to ignite in the cylinders. A diesel is a compression engine, meaning it squeezes the fuel/air mixture until the mixture builds up enough heat that it ignites on its own, which is a much more powerful explosion inside the cylinder than a gas engine experiences. Hence, in order to handle that extra explosive force, a diesel engine has to be much heavier duty than an equivilant gas engine. This therefore leads to the engine being able to last far longer than a gas engine, assuming proper maintenance is done on it, which of course applies to any engine, regardless of what fuel it uses. As an example, a typical gasser is intended for 200,000 miles of life before it needs any serious engine work. And that's only the more modern gas engine designs in the last 15 years.
Your statement that bigger diesel engines have a better chance of long life than smaller vehicle diesel engines seems to be a good point, from what I have seen.
Yes, I think my comparison (TDI/normally aspirated economy gasser) demonstrates very graphically, there is not "magic." involved. I have also defined some pros and cons and one can infer other pros and cons also. The part that has NOT and EVER changed are proper specific and general care procedures. Some do overlap and are common. One common example is a scheduled/unscheduled (diesel/gasser) engine cleaning/degreasing. A clean engine/transmission area does more to make your mechanic happy than you probably realize. Some can be pretty specific. So for example, you would endeavor not to soak the spark plugs and wires on a gasser. On a diesel, NADA (no spark plugs)!!
Check engine lights are the "toll booth" for dealers' $75 diagnostic charges obd hook up charges for the "appliance" type buyers or folks that do not have the correct tools. :lemon: Hopefully one can get that charge complimentaried or waived, since it can benefit both sides of the transaction.
There is almost no doubt in my mind after seeing a (gasser) head gasket job with 200k and hearing folks like isellhondas reactions. Between the two: and after doing the comparison, the gasser WILL have MORE costs for scheduled maintenance and have more of a chance for UNscheduled maintenance. So for example, I would consider a (gasser) head gasket job UNscheduled.
I also know that the 03 VW 1.8T (gasser) almost literally drinks oil (not the cheaper swill either ). @ the rate of 1 L per 1k miles. The TDI, more along the lines of 1/4 to 1/2 qt (8 oz to 16 oz) over 30,000 miles. Synthetic oil is app 5 to 8 per L. Percentage wise, it is way more prone to sludging. Both gasser engines (2.0 normally aspirated) have factorially more electrical issues over the TDI also.
Totally apples to oranges, the Honda Civic currently "sips" @ app 1/2 qt @ app 15,000 miles.
You or Larsb should go dig out some fleet records somewhere. Maybe there's a UK rental agency with diesel and gasser cars in their fleet with maintenance records.
114% of every Chevy truck ever made is still on the road, right?
If Honda or Toyota would make a diesel, then I'd consider it. VW has never been been at the top of the quality/reliability charts as compared to Honda/Toyota. Granted the regular maintenance might be cheaper with the diesel, but I doubt most people will have fewer repair costs with the Jetta diesel as compared to any Honda or Toyota.
I went to cars.com to compare the Prius and Jetta. As you can see, they're both about the same in price and interior specs (legroom, headroom, shoulder room), but the Prius has a little more cargo space and better MPG. You could spend a couple thousand more and get the TDI wagon to bump up the cargo space to 32CuFt. Cars.com shows the same MPG for the TDI sedan and TDI wagon, although I'm not sure if that's correct. I'd think the MPG would be less for the TDI wagon due to weight and aerodynamics. So I'd say based on this the more comparable comparison would be the Jetta and Prius, not the Jetta and Camry.
As far as repair costs, even if you had to change some battery cells on the Prius at 150,000 miles, I think that the overall better quality/reliability of the Prius will mean less repair cost compared to the Jetta in the long run. And the average MPG of the Prius is about 15mpg better than the Jetta. That doesn't even factor in the extra cost (about 7% on average) of paying for diesel fuel vs regular gas.
Prius II Jetta TDI 4dr sedan $23,560 $23,580 51 mpg 30 mpg City 48 mpg 41 mpg HWY 42.5 " 41.2 " Front legroom 36.0 " 35.4 " Rear legroom 38.6 " 38.5 " Front headroom 37.6 " 37.2 " Rear headroom 54.9 " 54.8 " Front shoulder room 53.1 " 53.1 " Rear shoulder room 21.6 16.0 cu.ft. Luggage volume
The only way I'd go for the Jetta TDI Wagon would be if the 21CuFt of cargo space wasn't enough in the Prius as compared to the 32CuFt in the TDI Wagon; however, once the Prius V comes to the market with it's 35CuFt of cargo space and 40MPG average, then that will eliminate that advantage of the TDI wagon.
Lots of big truck manufacturers offer longer factory warranties for their diesel rigs vs the gas equivalents.
I don't think the warranty on the Jetta is any different based on engine choice.
But if VW or some other make wanted to promote diesels, offering a longer engine warranty would be a good way of getting the word out. Assuming that they do last longer. :shades:
The thing is that while a diesel engine may last longer, what about all of the other components to the car other than the actual engine. I have yet to have a car with actual engine problems. I've had repairs for AC compressor, water pumps, starters, transmission issues, power steering, anti-lock braking system, various electrical modules, etc...but not any engine problems. It's all the other stuff that I'd worry about in a VW, not the actual engine.
Actually I used to run a small fleet. (100 or so). Most were Dodge gassers. Perhaps they hated us. Or probably they gave the lowest bid with the lowest quality?. We used to run flightline trucks that of 21 to 24 hours per day of operation/s saw 18 to 20 of those hours in IDLE mode for radio's heat and or A/C, shoot wrap your BBQ in foil and 9-12 hours later high grill heat cook em and oh YUM. APU's were actually...diesel.
US translations do not always make a good transition (vice versa goes without saying) .
After having a more late model Honda gasser (US of course) product, and for 120,000 miles, I think I would have some concerns, I would NOT have with VW's, IF Honda put out a US market diesel model. The concerns should be evident if you had been following my Civic gasser vs VW TDI comparison. You of course already know they do have a cracker jack European diesel. Unfortunately, the Honda (European) diesel does NOT sell well in the European markets!!?? The iCDI was put on the market in 2004 MY ? So it has been selling for @ least 8 MY's.
Again not that Honda would have a difficult time with 110,000 miles (1 "major" maintenance cycle). The longer, 2nd multiple cycles is what I would be concern about. Again there is no doubt in my mind (SWAG really as I have NOT hit the 2nd cycle ( 110,000-120,000 miles) yet (240,000 total miles) ). The Civic will follow its first cycle and again cost more the 2,3,4,th, etc. cycles over the VW TDI.
Right. But you were the one who mentioned Honda (Toyota) specifically. So unless you want to change the topic and now talk about the broad category of Japanese cars in Europe, it does not change my response. Indeed being a long time Toyota owner also , I can also say pretty much the same for Toyota passenger cars. I would say that the two Honda car products I have had were of higher quality, reliability, and durability than of Toyota car products.
The only thing it would take me to buy a diesel car or smaller pickup is increased availability in the U.S. Thanks to CARB though, we're getting stuck with weaker, higher maintenance, and over the long-haul, more environmentally degrading hybrids instead. Just take the new Subaru diesels for example- they're not being imported because they can't meet California's emission requirements without a urea injector and Subaru won't offer anything it can't sell in all 50 states. Couple this with the fact that only their 6 speed manual can handle the torque and most Americans can't or won't drive a stick and we'll probably be offered gas/hamster/electric hybrid models instead. Those poor hamsters.
I own both a Honda and Toyota (past cars also include Ford & Mazda), but I was just pointing out that in general, Japanese cars cost more in relation to European models. In America, Audi & BMW are more costly than Honda or Toyota, but in Europe you can get Audi/BMW for less than some Honda's or Toyota. That's all I was trying to say. Plus in Europe there are a lot of other small cars from a variety of European countries that are all a lot cheaper than a comparable Honda or Toyota.
I like Honda too, but wish they had a hybrid version of the Fit in the USA.
I think if there is a chink in the armor of the "global" village, it is demonstrated in spades with this diesel car/emissions issue. It is really more like you could drive a semi through it.
Again it gets back to msg #2221 ..."US translations do not always make a good transition (vice versa goes without saying) ". ...
Here is an easy one. The 03 TDI comes with a 5 speed manual with 90 hp/155# ft of torque. It hit the states with an epa of 42/49 mpg. With almost no hyper miling techniques, it can get a range of 44 to 62 mpg.
Now in Europe that "same" 03 TDI comes with a 6 speed manual with 100/110 hp and 177# ft of torque. (bigger injectors) This converts to something like +10 to +20 hp and +22 ft #'s of torque !!! This is absolutely HUGE !!Now here it get a bit tricky, for it is not EPA rated in Europe BUT all wish to know what the est fuel projections would be. Be that as it may, you can really add +2 mpg !!!!????
In the context of less dependence on foreign oil, "more mpg is better than LESS mpg", local conservation and do more with less and do less with far less, why would you want to have a car that gets LESS mpg when you can have more mpg???? Not only that, the emissions were on PAR with the Toyota Camry. Camry of course is one of the ubiquitious family economy cars ! The stated reasoning for the difference at the time was they were "AFRAID" of the much greater hp????????
OK.... Let's see,... what does a Corvete ZR-1 have for hp? 500+ ?????? !!!! Some of this stuff is TOTALLY ridiculous. Almost EVERYTHING had greater hp than a 90/100/110 hp 03 TDI !!!??? I dare say without looking, a 03 Civic had great hp ratings !!!
As old and probably as ODD as this concept is in reality a Honda Civic turbo diesel getting 52+ mpg for example would almost totally redefine the so called economy compact segment.
The bottom line. If the Government was AT ALL interested in cutting imported oil, they would have adopted ULSD when the Europeans did. They would have worked with them on emissions so the automakers would be able to sell one size fits all. We had plenty of diesel options in 1980 during that oil crisis. The savings in fuel was more than double with those dandy little diesel PU trucks and cars. That probably did not sit well with those running the show. Even with all the advances in gas engines they cannot match a diesel engine on any level except emissions.
Actually a very key 40+ year old point !!! If they had actually implemented a low (ULSD actually) sulfur mandate when they pulled the LEAD out of regular in what 1980 ?(31 years ago) it would have certainly affected the current landscape FAR FAR FAR differently.
There is a element of truth to your assertion, ..."You can't FORCE the American buyers to buy diesel cars by just putting them on the lot."...
However they can and DID exclude them from the market so you can NOT buy diesels in any (meaningful) percentage of the passenger car population.
What is difficult to resolve that only LESS than one half of 1 percent of the passenger vehicle fleet are diesel passenger cars ?????? This is AFTER 40+ years of "GROWTH"??? The sound of the other side is literally THUNDEROUS @ 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet being GASSERS (2008 .gov figures of 258.4 M vehicles!!!??? Anyway you slice it, the numbers overwhelmingly confirm they were ULTRA successful in the "EXCLUSION".
Gary - that's-a-crazy. (spoken in a broken Italian accent)
When I ended up with that POC Honda Accord in 1979 it was because the VW diesels were in such great demand it took over a year to get one. A guy I worked with in Alaska ordered a Dasher Diesel and when it came into the dealership they offered him $1000 to give it up to another customer. Which he did. There was plenty of demand. Part of the reason for the lack of demand is VW has had some reliability issues that haunt them. Add the fact that diesel is more expensive than RUG. And the EPA estimates are faulty on diesel vehicles across the board. Of course not everyone is interested in a $50k German diesel. I think sales of the VW Sportswagen at 85% being diesel says a lot about demand. I sure as anything would never consider a VW gasser.
Well no, as I have said, it is in the numbers. It is really not in my head at all. In terms of my own cars, diesels are 33%. I actually wish it was higher or closer to 100%.
Scared ? No, it is really an economic blockade. Part of the tools to effect an economic blockade are the emissions issues. We already know that Europe has half (50% plus) its passenger car fleet diesel; and GROWING. Their fleet is slightly larger than ours @ app 270.5 M vehicles.
So as I have posted earlier, JD Powers came out with a (an industry oem, oem suppliers, aftermarket, etc. ) prediction that the passenger diesel fleet would reach 12% by 2018.
So evidently there are some REAL dynamics. They also wish to explain after you buy their services on some level.
So in the context of what was considered RAPID growth in the SUV segment to 12% of the population in 30+ years from 1/2% of the population 12% of the fleet in 7/8 MY's is HOT news.
I think there are a lot of things that end up not being correct/right, etc. eh?
I crashed "the diesel as more expensive myth" (the truth being GASSERS were more expensive!!!!!!!) and maybe one person woke up from a narcotized nap !!! I almos agree with your semtiment. ....So what? :confuse: :lemon:
Why don't people by diesels: 1. Sub-par VW quality/reliability compared with Ford, Honda, & Toyota 2. Higher price of diesel fuel 3. While some folks exceed 50mpg on the highway in a diesel, overall average mpg for a diesel in a variety of driving conditions (highway, city, suburb) after you factor in the higher cost of diesel is only in the low 30's MPG.
VW has one that gets 235 MPG. It came out in 2009 at various car shows. I doubt the L1 will ever come to the USA. By the time the EPA & CARB got done with it the weight and economy would be killed. Emissions are less than half the Prius. At 36G/KM of CO2 nothing except pure EV comes close. And it is a two seater like the old Honda Insight.
Sub-par VW quality/reliability compared with Ford, Honda, & Toyota
I think the myriad of recalls on Toyota of late give VW a bye on that statement. VW has had some reliability issues for sure. The quality far surpasses most cars in their classes. Ride and handling is far superior in the VW automobiles to any of the above. I know you are a died in the wool Prius fan. I have even recommended them on rare occasions to friends that do mostly city driving. Though I would never want one for myself. They are crude riding and handling. Not even a chance I would take the Prius over a Sportswagen TDI. If I was buying a VW today it would be the Touareg TDI.
Indeed the real competition for the Prius is a Corolla/Civic, etc. Even at that, the costs documented @ 120,000 miles are probably far higher for the Prius (etc) than the Corolla/Civic, but lower over all than the Prius. The Civic's costs are certainly higher than the VW TDI Jetta.
As for the lower VW quality? The 2 "lower quality" VW's are indeed head and shoulders ABOVE the Prius/Corolla and Civic. As most would understand me to say, I am in no way disappointed with the Civic gasser. It has performed as advertised.
The more "like for like" competition for the VW Jetta TDI is the Camry Hybrid. As such, the Camry Hybrid costs thousands more. VW Jetta gets app 11% better fuel mileage.
So while I respect Bob3's to exercise his opinions in the marketplace, mine are partially based on the numbers that are important to me as expressed in a summary in MSG #2197. . low per mile driven costs. Hands down the VW Jetta TDI has performed better and in an apples to oranges comparison than the Civic. I would project that would be true for the Camry Hybrid also. So while I am just fine with people like Bob3 ignoring or glossing over MSG#2197, it is hard for me to do so as I "HAVE to" pay for the "driven" results !!!???
ruking1 says, "The more "like for like" competition for the VW Jetta TDI is the Camry Hybrid. As such, the Camry Hybrid costs thousands more. VW Jetta gets app 11% better fuel mileage."
I know you LOVE to say that, because it gives you (in your mind) an indisputable *WIN* for the TDI.
Unfortunately, the rest of the world does not agree with you.
Search Google for:
"Jetta camry hybrid" = 1,090,000 hits
Search Google for:
"Jetta Prius" = 5,170,000 hits
Many sites call the TDI the "Prius Killer"
Can't find one that calls the TDI the "Camry Killer" though.
The TDI and the Prius are both "high mileage" cars.
The Camry Hybrid is without a doubt DEFINITELY NOT a "High Mileage" car.
For me, it is hardly a win, as I still have to pay for it. CHEAPER per mile driven is where it is at for me. Again I have said this all along, so it is hardly a secret. You really should NOT ignore the fact that I actually am and have been saying I am happy with the CIVIC. You and others might dislike the truth, ..... the Civic costs more to operate !!!! Actually I dislike it.
As for the rest of the world disagreeing with me, THAT is HARDLY the case. Again, over half of the European passenger vehicle fleet of 270.5 M vehicles are passenger car diesels. I have already presented the US ( diesel car numbers) on this and other diesel threads. ( US passenger fleet l257.4 M, 2008
I'm not saying the world disagrees with you about diesels. I'm saying the world doesn't think the TCH and the Jetta TDI is an apples-to-apples comparo.
There is no doubt that almost EVERY car mag pundit has jumped on the band wagon of Prius vs TDI based SOLELY on the neck and neck mpg comparisons.
Indeed that was the bru ha ha for the 2004 Prius for the 60 C/ 50 H epa mpg ratings. A lot of Prius OWNERS got PO'd because it got no where NEAR that mpg in DAH real world. I was NEVER among them. Just glad I was able to dodge the bullet. A lot of these NEW Toyota Prius owners were NOT the religious faithful. They probably bought (my swag) based on the mpg figures. You could get not a straight answer from Prius Advocates. The PO'd Prius owners told you pretty straight. The issue became a political hot potato for the government in that the government put forth hybrid as part of the policy, where Toyota was a hybrid pioneer. They as a concession to Toyota, changed a 40+ year old EPA tests to favor hybrids. Diesel mpg's now are incredibly under rated. But then again as a longer time poster, you know that.
So while I understand the (low volume) 03 Prius are doing pretty good, there is not a lot of fan fare for the 200,000,300,000 400,000 miles results. Now you probably would not believe it, but I am actually interested in that.
So while I understand the (low volume) 03 Prius are doing pretty good, there is not a lot of fan fare for the 200,000,300,000 400,000 miles results
Other than you, I don't know a lot of people driving 20 plus thousand miles a year, much less 40,000.
Even when we lived out of our van that year and drove all over NA, we only put about 32,000 miles on it. Fast forward from '99 to now, and the van still only has 150,000 miles.
And even if the engines and battery packs are bullet proof, most of the other stuff isn't.
Comments
Again the real comparison is a VW Jetta TDI vs Camry Hybrid. Be that as it may, I just got the 04 Civic from the shop, but probably more importantly got the bill. :sick: So as you will probably guess (most folks would guess the opposite) LIKE for LIKE miles (120,000) the Civic was $485. MORE than the VW Jetta TDI or 81% more !!!! :surprise: But really no surprise !!!
Like miles (120,000 miles) , the Civic uses 38% more fuel (gals).
Like miles, the Civic costs 123% more for scheduled maintenance and repairs.
I should probably say it but it almost goes without saying: the Honda Civic (gasser) is considered one of the better and inexpensive to run economy cars !!
On the other hand, VW (TDI's) has been vilified almost at every level. :confuse:
Don't Honk That Jetta !!!
My guess would be that the horn hardware is the same in the gasser and the diesel....
Would it not have been more satisfying then, to have posted it under 2011 Jettas or did you feel you could insult more owners here, thereby making your mission more successful? Either way, IMHO, it wasn't very nice to do, mostly because of the way you did it. I failed to see any humor in it at all.
Sam
It's not an insult to own a car which has been recalled.
Millions of cars get recalled every year.
If anyone felt " personally insulted" that was not the intent.
If there was mocking going on, it was toward VW not the owners.
I thought it was pretty comical to have a recall that involved the horn shutting off the engine.....thus the LOL.
Thank you though for trying not to offend, even though you must realize that car ownership is a very personal thing? Off hand I can't think of a single circumstance whereby you could insult a car brand yet not insult that car brand's owner while doing so. Especially with a new car.
Sam
I see from your profile you have not been around here very long.
This sort of jabbing is common and accepted on these forums.
Everyone knows not to personally attack any individual forum contributor, as that is forbidden by the forum's rules.
But criticizing or teasing a car company for a recall? 100% acceptable practice.
Taking a light-hearted jab at a car company you have personal experience with or a beef with, or a grudge agasint? 100% acceptable practice.
Take a look at some of the Toyota boards in regard to their recalls from 2010 to see the kinds of things that go on......... :lemon:
Hope to see you around the forums....you'll desensitize soon enough....
Like I have said if I had ANY axe to grind, it would be to have the gasser cost less to run.
Now, I look forward to another 120,000 miles (@ a future total 240,000 miles), before all this is due again.
But on the other hand, I expect another 120,000 miles to click away on the diesel (Again @ a future 240,000 total miles), ALBEIT at less cost, in FAVOR of the DIESEL (TDI).
You are arguing into the mirror.
No one here thinks/thought/has ever said that a Civic gas engine will do better over 120K miles than a diesel engine.
Diesel engines are made for the long haul. Everyone knows that.
It doesn't mean VW is better than Honda. It just means a diesel engine does well over time - a fact everyone knows already.
I don't agree, at least not for passenger vehicles. We can go dig up that link about the million mile Volvo vs some Liberty CRDs that didn't make it to 70k.
The added gas savings would be nice, but my wife just had to increase her asthma meds, so diesel is a non-starter in this household.
With proper care, gasoline engines can go a long time.
I personally got 323,000 miles out of a 1980 Datsun/Nissan 200SX which was my second car. So I know gas engines can go a while - from personal experience.
But diesel engines ARE built with thicker steel, to withstand the higher compression levels.
A quick Google search found this:
Much longer engine life. Why? By it's nature, a diesel engine simply must be built much, much beefier than a gas engine. A gas engine has spark plugs which cause the fuel/air mixture to ignite in the cylinders. A diesel is a compression engine, meaning it squeezes the fuel/air mixture until the mixture builds up enough heat that it ignites on its own, which is a much more powerful explosion inside the cylinder than a gas engine experiences. Hence, in order to handle that extra explosive force, a diesel engine has to be much heavier duty than an equivilant gas engine. This therefore leads to the engine being able to last far longer than a gas engine, assuming proper maintenance is done on it, which of course applies to any engine, regardless of what fuel it uses. As an example, a typical gasser is intended for 200,000 miles of life before it needs any serious engine work. And that's only the more modern gas engine designs in the last 15 years.
Your statement that bigger diesel engines have a better chance of long life than smaller vehicle diesel engines seems to be a good point, from what I have seen.
There aren't many problem posts over in the BMW X5 Diesel Reliability discussion - just a few people with check engine light issues.
Check engine lights are the "toll booth" for dealers' $75 diagnostic charges obd hook up charges for the "appliance" type buyers or folks that do not have the correct tools. :lemon: Hopefully one can get that charge complimentaried or waived, since it can benefit both sides of the transaction.
But riddle me this:
Do you think there are more gas Jettas over 300K, or more TDI Jettas over 300K still on the road?
I also know that the 03 VW 1.8T (gasser) almost literally drinks oil (not the cheaper swill either
Totally apples to oranges, the Honda Civic currently "sips" @ app 1/2 qt @ app 15,000 miles.
114% of every Chevy truck ever made is still on the road, right?
I went to cars.com to compare the Prius and Jetta. As you can see, they're both about the same in price and interior specs (legroom, headroom, shoulder room), but the Prius has a little more cargo space and better MPG. You could spend a couple thousand more and get the TDI wagon to bump up the cargo space to 32CuFt. Cars.com shows the same MPG for the TDI sedan and TDI wagon, although I'm not sure if that's correct. I'd think the MPG would be less for the TDI wagon due to weight and aerodynamics. So I'd say based on this the more comparable comparison would be the Jetta and Prius, not the Jetta and Camry.
As far as repair costs, even if you had to change some battery cells on the Prius at 150,000 miles, I think that the overall better quality/reliability of the Prius will mean less repair cost compared to the Jetta in the long run. And the average MPG of the Prius is about 15mpg better than the Jetta. That doesn't even factor in the extra cost (about 7% on average) of paying for diesel fuel vs regular gas.
http://www.cars.com/go/compare/trimCompare.jsp?acodes=USC00TOC161A0,USC00VWC033D- - - - 0
Prius II Jetta TDI 4dr sedan
$23,560 $23,580
51 mpg 30 mpg City
48 mpg 41 mpg HWY
42.5 " 41.2 " Front legroom
36.0 " 35.4 " Rear legroom
38.6 " 38.5 " Front headroom
37.6 " 37.2 " Rear headroom
54.9 " 54.8 " Front shoulder room
53.1 " 53.1 " Rear shoulder room
21.6 16.0 cu.ft. Luggage volume
The only way I'd go for the Jetta TDI Wagon would be if the 21CuFt of cargo space wasn't enough in the Prius as compared to the 32CuFt in the TDI Wagon; however, once the Prius V comes to the market with it's 35CuFt of cargo space and 40MPG average, then that will eliminate that advantage of the TDI wagon.
I don't think the warranty on the Jetta is any different based on engine choice.
But if VW or some other make wanted to promote diesels, offering a longer engine warranty would be a good way of getting the word out. Assuming that they do last longer. :shades:
A semi tractor's engine commonly weighs 2500-3000 lb and maybe turning 1500rpm or less at highway speed.
After having a more late model Honda gasser (US of course) product, and for 120,000 miles, I think I would have some concerns, I would NOT have with VW's, IF Honda put out a US market diesel model. The concerns should be evident if you had been following my Civic gasser vs VW TDI comparison. You of course already know they do have a cracker jack European diesel. Unfortunately, the Honda (European) diesel does NOT sell well in the European markets!!?? The iCDI was put on the market in 2004 MY ? So it has been selling for @ least 8 MY's.
Again not that Honda would have a difficult time with 110,000 miles (1 "major" maintenance cycle). The longer, 2nd multiple cycles is what I would be concern about. Again there is no doubt in my mind (SWAG really as I have NOT hit the 2nd cycle ( 110,000-120,000 miles) yet (240,000 total miles) ). The Civic will follow its first cycle and again cost more the 2,3,4,th, etc. cycles over the VW TDI.
Thanks to CARB though, we're getting stuck with weaker, higher maintenance, and over the long-haul, more environmentally degrading hybrids instead. Just take the new Subaru diesels for example- they're not being imported because they can't meet California's emission requirements without a urea injector and Subaru won't offer anything it can't sell in all 50 states. Couple this with the fact that only their 6 speed manual can handle the torque and most Americans can't or won't drive a stick and we'll probably be offered gas/hamster/electric hybrid models instead. Those poor hamsters.
I like Honda too, but wish they had a hybrid version of the Fit in the USA.
Again it gets back to msg #2221 ..."US translations do not always make a good transition (vice versa goes without saying) ". ...
Here is an easy one. The 03 TDI comes with a 5 speed manual with 90 hp/155# ft of torque. It hit the states with an epa of 42/49 mpg. With almost no hyper miling techniques, it can get a range of 44 to 62 mpg.
Now in Europe that "same" 03 TDI comes with a 6 speed manual with 100/110 hp and 177# ft of torque. (bigger injectors) This converts to something like +10 to +20 hp and +22 ft #'s of torque !!! This is absolutely HUGE !!Now here it get a bit tricky, for it is not EPA rated in Europe BUT all wish to know what the est fuel projections would be. Be that as it may, you can really add +2 mpg !!!!????
In the context of less dependence on foreign oil, "more mpg is better than LESS mpg", local conservation and do more with less and do less with far less, why would you want to have a car that gets LESS mpg when you can have more mpg???? Not only that, the emissions were on PAR with the Toyota Camry. Camry of course is one of the ubiquitious family economy cars ! The stated reasoning for the difference at the time was they were "AFRAID" of the much greater hp????????
OK.... Let's see,... what does a Corvete ZR-1 have for hp? 500+ ?????? !!!! Some of this stuff is TOTALLY ridiculous. Almost EVERYTHING had greater hp than a 90/100/110 hp 03 TDI !!!??? I dare say without looking, a 03 Civic had great hp ratings !!!
As old and probably as ODD as this concept is in reality a Honda Civic turbo diesel getting 52+ mpg for example would almost totally redefine the so called economy compact segment.
You can't FORCE the American buyers to buy diesel cars by just putting them on the lot.
The buying public has proven so far that they DON'T want them, at least the current crop.
Once you get the few hundred thousand TDIs sold, there is no market left.
The same problem the carmakers are having selling smaller cars unless gas hovers around $3.50 - people want their big cars.
Dumb, I know, but the reality right now.
I'd love to see 25-30 diesel sedan options in the USA.
Appears that it will take a few more years to get that done, unfortunately.
However they can and DID exclude them from the market so you can NOT buy diesels in any (meaningful) percentage of the passenger car population.
What is difficult to resolve that only LESS than one half of 1 percent of the passenger vehicle fleet are diesel passenger cars ?????? This is AFTER 40+ years of "GROWTH"??? The sound of the other side is literally THUNDEROUS @ 98% of the passenger vehicle fleet being GASSERS (2008 .gov figures of 258.4 M vehicles!!!??? Anyway you slice it, the numbers overwhelmingly confirm they were ULTRA successful in the "EXCLUSION".
When I ended up with that POC Honda Accord in 1979 it was because the VW diesels were in such great demand it took over a year to get one. A guy I worked with in Alaska ordered a Dasher Diesel and when it came into the dealership they offered him $1000 to give it up to another customer. Which he did. There was plenty of demand. Part of the reason for the lack of demand is VW has had some reliability issues that haunt them. Add the fact that diesel is more expensive than RUG. And the EPA estimates are faulty on diesel vehicles across the board. Of course not everyone is interested in a $50k German diesel. I think sales of the VW Sportswagen at 85% being diesel says a lot about demand. I sure as anything would never consider a VW gasser.
But, sadly, it ain't true......
It's a "chicken and egg" situation: What comes first?
1. Availability of diesel sedans from multiple automakers?
OR
2. Desire from the American car buyer to have a choice of many diesels?
That alone, and nothing else, is the #1 reason we don't have more.
Plain and simple: the automakers are scared to offer them here, and spend the dozens of millions of dollars promoting the new cars, etc.
It's NOT a matter of just saying, "lets American-ize one of these Euro diesels, plop it on a lot, and see what happens, UmKay?"
Scared ? No, it is really an economic blockade. Part of the tools to effect an economic blockade are the emissions issues. We already know that Europe has half (50% plus) its passenger car fleet diesel; and GROWING. Their fleet is slightly larger than ours @ app 270.5 M vehicles.
So as I have posted earlier, JD Powers came out with a (an industry oem, oem suppliers, aftermarket, etc. ) prediction that the passenger diesel fleet would reach 12% by 2018.
So evidently there are some REAL dynamics. They also wish to explain after you buy their services on some level.
So in the context of what was considered RAPID growth in the SUV segment to 12% of the population in 30+ years from 1/2% of the population 12% of the fleet in 7/8 MY's is HOT news.
How do we get from < 2% to 12% in 7 years?
The *ONLY* way is for ToyMitHyunFordGMSubaHonSan to start selling 5-passenger diesels ASAP.
It will NEVER go higher than 2-3% unless THAT happens.
I crashed "the diesel as more expensive myth" (the truth being GASSERS were more expensive!!!!!!!) and maybe one person woke up from a narcotized nap !!! I almos agree with your semtiment. ....So what? :confuse:
1. Sub-par VW quality/reliability compared with Ford, Honda, & Toyota
2. Higher price of diesel fuel
3. While some folks exceed 50mpg on the highway in a diesel, overall average mpg for a diesel in a variety of driving conditions (highway, city, suburb) after you factor in the higher cost of diesel is only in the low 30's MPG.
How about a diesel hybrid?
VW has one that gets 235 MPG. It came out in 2009 at various car shows. I doubt the L1 will ever come to the USA. By the time the EPA & CARB got done with it the weight and economy would be killed. Emissions are less than half the Prius. At 36G/KM of CO2 nothing except pure EV comes close. And it is a two seater like the old Honda Insight.
Sub-par VW quality/reliability compared with Ford, Honda, & Toyota
I think the myriad of recalls on Toyota of late give VW a bye on that statement. VW has had some reliability issues for sure. The quality far surpasses most cars in their classes. Ride and handling is far superior in the VW automobiles to any of the above. I know you are a died in the wool Prius fan. I have even recommended them on rare occasions to friends that do mostly city driving. Though I would never want one for myself. They are crude riding and handling. Not even a chance I would take the Prius over a Sportswagen TDI. If I was buying a VW today it would be the Touareg TDI.
As for the lower VW quality? The 2 "lower quality" VW's are indeed head and shoulders ABOVE the Prius/Corolla and Civic. As most would understand me to say, I am in no way disappointed with the Civic gasser. It has performed as advertised.
The more "like for like" competition for the VW Jetta TDI is the Camry Hybrid. As such, the Camry Hybrid costs thousands more. VW Jetta gets app 11% better fuel mileage.
So while I respect Bob3's to exercise his opinions in the marketplace, mine are partially based on the numbers that are important to me as expressed in a summary in MSG #2197. . low per mile driven costs. Hands down the VW Jetta TDI has performed better and in an apples to oranges comparison than the Civic. I would project that would be true for the Camry Hybrid also. So while I am just fine with people like Bob3 ignoring or glossing over MSG#2197, it is hard for me to do so as I "HAVE to" pay for the "driven" results !!!???
I know you LOVE to say that, because it gives you (in your mind) an indisputable *WIN* for the TDI.
Unfortunately, the rest of the world does not agree with you.
Search Google for:
"Jetta camry hybrid" = 1,090,000 hits
Search Google for:
"Jetta Prius" = 5,170,000 hits
Many sites call the TDI the "Prius Killer"
Can't find one that calls the TDI the "Camry Killer" though.
The TDI and the Prius are both "high mileage" cars.
The Camry Hybrid is without a doubt DEFINITELY NOT a "High Mileage" car.
As for the rest of the world disagreeing with me, THAT is HARDLY the case. Again, over half of the European passenger vehicle fleet of 270.5 M vehicles are passenger car diesels. I have already presented the US ( diesel car numbers) on this and other diesel threads. ( US passenger fleet l257.4 M, 2008
I'm saying the world doesn't think the TCH and the Jetta TDI is an apples-to-apples comparo.
Indeed that was the bru ha ha for the 2004 Prius for the 60 C/ 50 H epa mpg ratings. A lot of Prius OWNERS got PO'd because it got no where NEAR that mpg in DAH real world. I was NEVER among them. Just glad I was able to dodge the bullet. A lot of these NEW Toyota Prius owners were NOT the religious faithful. They probably bought (my swag) based on the mpg figures. You could get not a straight answer from Prius Advocates. The PO'd Prius owners told you pretty straight. The issue became a political hot potato for the government in that the government put forth hybrid as part of the policy, where Toyota was a hybrid pioneer. They as a concession to Toyota, changed a 40+ year old EPA tests to favor hybrids. Diesel mpg's now are incredibly under rated. But then again as a longer time poster, you know that.
So while I understand the (low volume) 03 Prius are doing pretty good, there is not a lot of fan fare for the 200,000,300,000 400,000 miles results. Now you probably would not believe it, but I am actually interested in that.
Other than you, I don't know a lot of people driving 20 plus thousand miles a year, much less 40,000.
Even when we lived out of our van that year and drove all over NA, we only put about 32,000 miles on it. Fast forward from '99 to now, and the van still only has 150,000 miles.
And even if the engines and battery packs are bullet proof, most of the other stuff isn't.