Got a Quick Question for a Car Dealer?

dtownfb

Hard to say if you are being scammed or if this is legit . One call to Capital One by their F&I guy should resolve the situation pretty quickly. I'm sure if he talks to the right person, he can get all the information he needs.

jwilliams2

I would not blame the dealer one bit. Until the money is in their account, they should hold the car. Cap One is known to throw in stipulations which sometimes make it hard for the dealer to collect. Just be patient.

madmanmoo

Not a scam and 100% legit. That money from Capitol One is not certified funds. It is a draft. It has to be cleared and CapOne can cancel the money at any time up to 10 days from initial deposit.

Just be patient. The dealership is covering their tracks in case you don't meet any of CapOne's stipulations.

traindriver

It doesn't sound like it should take "weeks" if the F&I person knows what they are doing. Read the FAQ for "dealer instructions." Draft checks are tricky -- not the same as a personal check or payroll check.
Is the dealers rate so much higher that you are willing to wait? Maybe, maybe not -- do the math.

2. When will the dealer receive payment from Capital One?

Capital One guarantees payment of the Blank Check within one business day of presentment if all dealer requirements have been met and the proper documents have been verified and submitted. Specific dealer requirements will be listed on the “Dealer Instructions” page of the customer’s Blank Check loan package.

golic

What is the difference in rates being offered?

The delay is legit, but I do believe FI is exaggerating on the length to put pressure on you to accept their higher financing.

Don't sign anything, tell them you will wait 72 hours and if funds are not ready, you will cancel and move on.

madmanmoo

Bad advice, Golic. You're going to have this guy bouncing to another dealership only to find that he will go through the same situation.

You want the better rate? Just wait. It isn't like the dealership doesn't want to sell a vehicle. They just want to make sure they have the money.

CapOne has numerous stipulations, especially in regards to used cars. Just wait.

fezo

Have these things changed over the years? I remember buying a Sebring convertible in 2000 with one of those things. I was on my way into the city (Philly) for music and spotted the car on a lot in Cherry Hill. We tried it out, liked it and I offered the check. I'd said I only had 45 minutes and I had to head into Philly. They took the check, thank you very much, here's the keys and the paper tag and I'm fine to stop by on our way back - they'll be closed but I can pick it up which is exactly what happened.

Back in the days when so much of what you could do on-line was all novelty....

madmanmoo

A dealership that likes to make sure they have all the money waits. Dealerships that are very loose with their rules will let it slide. I'm not saying that some dealerships will overlook it, but it is completely reasonable to think that a dealer wants to make sure his check doesn't have funds reversed.

There are some dealerships that allow people to test drive by themselves, but we don't do that. Same way with the CapOne checks.

fezo

I can understand that - just like I can understand not letting a Porsche off the lot without a salesman....

At the time this check was touted as same as cash and for all practical purposes it was at that point. For that particular purchase the ease of it did the deal. then i had to go and decide to have another kid and the Sebring was history....

codemonkey2

2.5% difference in the rate. I think thats worth the wait. Now that I am told that this is common practice I am much more comfortable. Just a little nervous because I don't have that much experience buying cars. Couldn't really think of how they could be scamming me. Only thing I could come up with is that they would drastically reduce the "allowance" they gave me on my trade in when I actually showed up to pick up the car. Forcing me to pay more without much recourse. Because I would have already signed the deal. But that seems a little far fetched.

golic

I was reading this story about the NE auto dealer who took the cars and sold them and was starting to think, how was he able to do this?

Isn't there any sort of UCC fiing by the manufacturer or the bank providing the floor plan financing? I am just wondering how he was able to sells these cars with a clean title??

golic

That is a significant difference in rate, I would wait as well. And moo was right, ignore my prior advice...my thought was not really to walk but to through back his tactic. But you got the deal you wanted...work with them - just don't total your trade in!!!

grandtotal

just don't total your trade in!!!

That is what insurance is for. I've been in that very situation (not at fault) and it all worked out fine.

volvomax

The MSO's or titles don't show any lien's on them.
When a dealer sells a car, they report the sale to the flooring bank.
The dealer then pays off the car w/ the bank.
It's not unusual for a dealer to wait several days after selling a car before reporting the sale to the flooring bank.
Usually, they want to make sure the deal clears and they are funded either by the customer or the bank assuming the loan or lease.
The flooring bank usually only undertakes a physical inventory once a quarter or so.

golic

so eventually the auction houses and dealers who bought these vehicles who have discovered they just paid for something without a clean title.

How did this group think they could get away with this??

jayrider

You could figure out the difference in interest paid on the entire loan and offer the dealer his rate if he improves your deal accordingly. If you have good credit, then you both win. You get essentially the better finance rate and he benefits by referring a good loan.

golic

2.5% is a hard number to over come.

For example I just ran some numbers - $25,000 loan, 60 mos at 4% and 6.5%

Difference in monthly payment is $28.74. Overall interest is $1,724.40. I doubt the dealer would drop the price by $1,724.40 just to get a finance fee.

If it was an 1/8th or 1/4 point, then it would make sense for the instant gratification.

explorerx4

you need to see what the late payment consequences are.
you might save 2.5%, but they probably 'lose' one of your payments and you will end up getting bent over.
that company has a horrible reputation.

snakeweasel

Difference in monthly payment is $28.74. Overall interest is $1,724.40. I doubt the dealer would drop the price by $1,724.40 just to get a finance fee.

In your example the price would have to drop by only $1,468.90 for the 6.5% loan to match the 4% loan, still well over 5% of the price.

traindriver

The MSO's or titles don't show any lien's on them.

Are MSO's on file at the dealer or is this something they obtain after a car is sold?

Is it unreasonable to ask for the MSO at delivery?
(think out of state, unknown dealer reputation/financial standing, I will do my own DMV work locally)

If I bought out of town/state, I would like to get everything in hand when I drive away. I'd hate to take delivery and find out days or weeks later that my dealership closed the day after I bought (what happened to my deposit, was the floor planner paid off, did the loan get processed, will the DMV paperwork be sent in, is the car really mine yet, etc.)

I dang sure don't want to get stuck with a car loan in my name that the floor planning bank wants to repossess because they have not been paid!

snakeweasel

I dang sure don't want to get stuck with a car loan in my name that the floor planning bank wants to repossess because they have not been paid!

There are laws that protect consumers in that situation. As long as you legally bought the car the floor planning bank cannot repossess the car if they don't get paid.

jwilliams2

MSO's are on file at the dealer. They are usually sent by the mfg. as the cars are shipped. Most dealers will not deliver a car on the MSO, unless you are a new car dealer. Some will make an exception, but only if you pay cash.

If you finance, the bank is going to require the dealer to register it, for obvious reasons.

If you are out of state, they may put you on a temp or transit tag until they finalize the registration and secure the tags.

The state will then send the title to the lien holder.

At least that's how its worked for me.

traindriver

Thank you snake and jwilliams for your info. I suppose the next question is if you can't get all of the documentation in hand at delivery, is there any way to avoid problems if the dealer goes out of business? I had hoped that by doing it myself, I would be the most reliable one to see that it is properly finalized.

I was thinking that on out of state purchases, they would simply hand you the paperwork and let you get the DMV work processed on your own. I am aware that some use titling services but I did not realize that they would be required to process it for you if there was a loan involved. I can see where that would present a problem for the lender if they never got recorded as the lienholder; I don't think like a crook so I didn't see that one coming.

volvomax

A lot depends on the laws of the state the dealer is in.
In AZ, we cannot give a customer an MSO.
We have to provide an AZ title. Unless you have a dealers license.

richz

Are there any MB dealers here willing to help me out? I'm looking for the trunk money on '09 S550 4Matics and any lease incentives on this car.

Thanks.

Kirstie_H

I don't think we have any MB dealers who participate, but did you check our rebates & incentives page?
http://www.edmunds.com/incentives/step1.jsp

tapes

Hello All,

I am a new member who is purchasing a BMW for the first time (Northeast part of the US). I have enjoyed reading everyone’s posts, and have gained some valuable insight throughout my research. Hopefully, some of you could provide me with a little guidance with the whole price negotiation thing since I do not have much experience in car buying.

Here’s the low-down. I am between the following two vehicles and would like to know if my offer prices are aggressive enough to achieve a great deal for me, while ensuring that the dealership gets their fair share as well. I want to be a considerate, low-maintenance buyer who can provide the dealership with a seamless and quick transaction for a spectacular deal. Certainly, I would want to develop a good relationship with a dealer to whom I could do future business and provide referrals.

However, I want to make sure my expectations are reasonable before I discuss price. See below and let me know what you think. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

2006 BMW 325i (Sedan)
Certified Pre Owned
Premium Package
Sport Package
Steptronic
Leather
25,000 Miles
Offer Price: $21,500

2006 BMW 325xi (Sedan)
Certified Pre Ownned
Premium Package
Sport Package
Cold Package
Leather
Xenon
34,000 Miles
Offer Price: $23,500

Thanks for the Help!

Mr_Shiftright

I'm an appraiser not a dealer so these offers look like about fair market retail to me, neither particularly high nor low. In other words, a price you should be able to find anytime.

madmanmoo

The offers seem low to me. The cheapest certified 325i I could find was 25k more miles and still listed $1,500 above what you are offering. I think you ought to raise your sights a bit.

boomchek

Although your offers might reflect certain "book" values, they might not reflect actual market conditions, or the margins a dealer has in those cars. What were the asking prices for them?

oregonboy

If the sales guy says they are a bit low, and Shiftright says they are market correct, I would be inclined to drop them a bit farther. You KNOW that the seller will "bump" your offer, so you need to allow some room to give.

UNLESS.... you are using the bobst method. :shades:

boomchek

If they're into those cars for more than he's offering then they'll pass the offers on without a counteroffer, and wait for another buyer.

oregonboy

Absolutely true. That's the beauty of the bobst method... simplicity!

madmanmoo

That's cute. Let's give him some advice that makes certain he is never going to buy a car. I have no vested interest in this and am just trying to help the guy.

I did a 100 mile radius search of the 325i coupes in my area. The majority were listed in the mid to high $20k's. Most of them had much higher miles. I'm not aware of many dealers leaving tons of margin in their used vehicles because of the market conditions. They are normally priced to sell.

The 25k mile '06 that he found sounds like a nice vehicle and it is certified. I think that the car is worth more and he should raise his offer by at least $1k in anticipation of a bump.

oregonboy

Well, he did say that he wanted the dealer to make some money on the sale.... so why not.

boomchek

I think people shouldn't worry about if and what the dealer is going to make on the sale. The dealer will take care of that and look after it's own profit. If a customer truly is concerned about a dealer making profit, then they should pay sticker price.

Every customer I had that was concerned about being "fair" and making sure we make profit, always offered crazy lowballe and pitted 10 dealers aginast each other to fight for the sale.

I will say it is a nice gesture on the buyer's part though to be concerned about the dealer's profit.

We'd need to know the asking prices of these two cars to get a sense if the deal is doable.

explorerx4

since i live in the northeast, i will chime in here.
if you can afford some fuel mileage penalty, i would ultimately focus on the xi.
if you can stay home in bad weather, maybe not so much.
the awd and heated seats are required for a vehicle like what you are looking for, if you need to commute every day.
i would also check the tires. you will probably need to replace those earlier on the xi, since it has an extra 10k or so, on it.
is offer price 'theirs' or 'yours'?

tapes

Thanks for the response, Host. I was thinking that those offers were"fair". However, I am quickly finding out that "fair" is extremely relative!

Mr_Shiftright

Well you have to start somewhere. What I MEANT (ahem, ahaw) was that the offer you are making would be exactly the same offer I would personally throw out to the dealer.

Look, let's face it-- you cannot negotiate if you cannot leave the table, right?

Perhaps the numbers you came up with are NOT the "line drawn in the sand" over which you will not cross---but you should figure out what that line is, and if you are presented with the prospect of walking over that line by the dealer, you can leave the table.

In today's economy, it is my humble opinion that a dealer will certainly "entertain" the numbers you have posted.

"Asking prices are the exercise of your First Amendment Rights, nothing more" (Shiftright, quoted in various obscure websites)

If a dealer cannot make a profit on the numbers you posted, then I think they're in a little deep on those CPOs---but they sure have a right to hold out for more $$$.

Do what madman did, good idea. Go to autotrader, plug in "advanced search" and scoop up 40-50 local cars with similar miles, then use Autotrader "average price" and see what you get. Keep in mind that these "average" prices are average asking prices.

You know, salesmen and appraiser are different. I'm crueler, because I'm theoretically "disinterested" in every car I look at. I don't need my price to reflect any kind of "profit".

So that's why you're seeing "relative" opinions. We are both right in the sense that we are not exactly talking about the same thing.

richz

Thanks, I did check there. Unfortunately, I have found in the past with BMW that the Edmunds rebates & incentives page doesn't always list all the current incentives. I heard some things through the grape vine that MB did have some kind of marketing support on the S550 4Matic but I don't see it on the Edmunds rebates & incentives page so I'd like to confirm with a friendly dealer.

tapes

Well played, boomchek! You called me out, and you are partially correct.

I want to educate myself before I engage in negotiations, so I can present an intelligent, well-informed, offer that is one degree above a low-ball offer :-).

All joking aside, I am pretty naive to this whole thing, but I do not see any reason to pit 10 dealers against each other. The dealerships and professional salespeople have grossly more resources and expertise than I do. So I would much rather have honest and open dialogue with one dealership, and build a long term business relationship with them. In return, I would seek reciprocal honest and open dialogue.

The asking prices of the dealers is really where I having difficulty comprehending. I am looking at asking prices of $31K for the 325xi and $26K for the other.

Even if the dealer would like to make 5K net profit on the vehicles, does that mean that the dealer already has $26K and $21K in to those CPO's respectively? If so, is that in line with current market conditions?

boomchek

2006 BMW 325i (Sedan)
Asking $26,000
Your Offer Price: $21,500

2006 BMW 325xi (Sedan)
Asking $31,000
Offer Price: $23,500

Based on their asking prices, I very highly doubt they'd accept any of your offers. If they're asking $31k for the xi, then chances are they're in it for well over $25k. Very likely as much as $27-$28k. There's no way they'll take $23.5k because a "book" says it's fair.

You might have better luck with the the 325i. If it has been sitting on the lot for over 90 days, and it stands them close to what you're offering them, then maybe they'll bump you $1k and do the deal.

Every one of us salespeople keep saying, that books are just guides, and dealers are not obligated to go by them. It's also good that you're educated, but sometimes books can lead you astray and you might pass on good deals. Sometimes customers that do that, end up with lower quality vehicles because they looked at price only and not quality. And by lower quality, I mean same make/models they wanted but with detrimental accident history, unsolved warranty issues, and higher levels of wear and tear, or higher mileage.

If you don't want to go over your budget then you should look at older or more milead up versions of these cars.

Now you wanted to go and make the offer to them. Have you been at the dealership in person? Have you looked at the cars, test driven them, and finalized your decision on one of the two, or are you looking at others as well?

Mr_Shiftright

Okay I did a BIG search of 2006 325i, certified, low mileage cars and came up with AVG ASKING of $24771 (California area, which I'd guess is one of the highest in the country?)

So if asking is $24771, let's presume they'd bargain 7%, ('they" meaning all the other dealers in the universe who think $24771 is enough)---- so roughly $23,000.

So you're $1,500 light in terms of what others seem to be selling comparable CPOs for. (by "comparable" I mean as far as we can tell on paper).

So offer $21.5K, if they say no, bump to $23K after whining how broke you are (what's car buying without some drama, right?) and if they still say no, I'd say you keep shopping around, because there are others just like it out.

HOWEVER, if it's the perfect car in the perfect color with every option you ever wanted and you love this dealer and you never saw a nicer one and you're feet are tired---well then, pay what you need to get your hearts' desire is my advice.

PS: Do you really need AWD? Why are you shopping 2WD and AWD together?

verdugo

Okay I did a BIG search of 2006 325i,

Just wanted to say how cool is it that the regulars here are always willing to help.

:shades:

tapes

Awesome advice. You should get some sort of retainer for this!

I completely agree that the books seem to be a very general guide. Similarly, I view the list price on these vehicles as a very general guide as well. Neither the salesperson nor the buyer is obligated to consider either value as an absolute. This is why I posted to this board- it's all very confusing to me.

Two questions-

1.) Is it a fair assumption that a dealer's list price is generally 4k over what they have into it? If that's the case, then they're in the 325i CPOed @ 22K and the 325xi CPO'd @ 27K.

2.)Is dealer's above investments in these two vehicles higher or lower than what the market currently dictates?

Mr. Shiftright- To answer your question, I would like the AWD but it's not a necessity. I am trying to keep my criteria relatively flexible in order to get a better value. I have not finalized my decision yet, nor have I contacted any dealership. The goals are to purchase a car by the end of this month, visit only one dealer, and have the deal done in one visit.

Or continue looking for a "fair" deal until I re-adjust my perception of fair!

Thanks again guys for the insight. Much appreciated!

golic

The part that is confusing me is that you have not contacted any dealers. Are these CPO's in such abundance that you can find them at any dealership?

Wouldn't your dealer options be "very" limited by who has in inventory the 2 cars you have mentioned with that mileage?

I understand wanting to build a relationship, but I don't think dealers "trade" used cars and it would appear to me you choices will be limited to who has what in stock??

madmanmoo

1.) Is it a fair assumption that a dealer's list price is generally 4k over what they have into it? If that's the case, then they're in the 325i CPOed 22K and the 325xi CPO'd 27K.

That might be correct, but as I mentioned before, most dealerships are pricing their vehicles aggressively to move out inventory quickly. Whether or not this dealership is one of them, you won't know until you ask.

2.)Is dealer's above investments in these two vehicles higher or lower than what the market currently dictates?

I don't know what market you are in, but it seems they might be in them for just a bit higher than normal. However, the mileage is very good on the 325i and perhaps the overall condition is as well.

As I said before, I think you are a bit low on your offers. I would aim for about $2-3k off their asking price as your target goal. My AutoTrader search was for the East coast and mid to high $20k's was the average asking price. I think you can safely assume that they are not going to fund their next vacation off you when you make these offers.

Good luck!

wd1811

So, I want a RAV4, but one with sort of an unusual combination of options. I put a spec sheet together using Toyota's online configuration tool, so I believe what I want is valid. However, I've exchanged email with a couple of dealers and they keep steering me to pick one from the available pool of RAV4s already in my region, telling me its impossible, etc.

So my questions are: is there actually a procedure to go about getting a RAV 4 configured exactly as I want it? Is it just too cumbersome a process, and that's why the folks I've talked to seem reluctant to do it? Or am I really stuck with the ones preconfigured and shipped to the area (I know they can do little thing like replacing a CD player or whatever, but can I get one configured exactly?)

Thanks...Bill.

kyfdx

A lot of good advice on this subject.... but...

I wouldn't let the asking price affect what I offer... Many BMW dealers are notorious for holding on to a "wishful" price for months and months, then knocking $4K off it at one time... A relatively high asking price might clue you in that they might not give very good deals at that dealership, but it sure isn't a sign that you should offer more...

Look around for asking prices on non-CPO models at other dealers... You'll likely get a better idea of a true market value... then add about $2500 for CPO on a nice unit at your BMW dealer.. If your local dealer has a $5K-$6K spread over a comparable non-CPO, then you'll know you have a lot more room to work.

Or...start from the ground up, and find out the current Manheim Market Value... and go from there...

regards,
kyfdx
visiting host

fezo

Yeah, I was seeing mid to high $20s for similar within a 200 mile radius of me in NJ.

There were 138 of them so there was no shortage.