They fought for medical coverage, pensions, sick time, vacations, O/T, decent wage. We have all but destroyed them though many of us have what we have because of them.
These things are not Globally competitive: pensions, sick time, O/T, vacations, health care, along with taking home 75% of your paycheck.
You don't get these from globally competitive companies with Asian factories.
We expect GM to deliver us the Malibu which is on par with the Accord, but then we will not consider it for purchase, we ignore it and make untrue remarks about the mgmt of GM, and we want the demise of the company because we are jealous that a midwesterner is making $75 an hour making cars. Here in the Midwest, we did not create the housing bubble that ruined the entire country and caused a Trillion dollar bailout. To object to the $25 Billion loan to the automakers probably means you are happy with your import and would be willing to see the demise of pensions, O/T and the like. Honda has the right strategy for $4 gas? GM does not? There is plenty of ignorance in that set of statements. Who makes more 30 mpg models? Who makes the vehicles that were used to build the place you live at?
Now if GM will sell Saab and Hummer, and their stake in GMAC ... they won't need the taxpayers help. Cut, cut, cut, and renegotiate all contracts or tell your suppliers and workers there won't be anything to negotiate, if you don't like the reduced terms.
GM also has canceled the lavish, star-studded GM Style event showcasing music, fashion and cars that would have kicked off the North American International Auto Show in Detroit. Last January's show featured Kid Rock, Mary J. Blige and food and drinks galore under a tent outside the convention hall.
So after the Big 3 have spent years living it up wasting money, I'm to feel sorry for them because they are nearly broke now? And they're going to put on a good show now of being sorry. I'm sorry - if my son spends his $100 paycheck on Sat. night, I'm not giving him $ for lunch and gas on Mon. morning!
Unemployment benefits paid out, help no one, they are merely non recoverable govenment expenditures. Batting 1000.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you disagreeing with me? Do you think giving money to pay for all of a company's expenditures, including salaries, is better than paying a very very small percentage of that in unemployment payments?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Nobody else working in this country get those level of benefits either. I am not jealous of some guy making $75/hr in the midwest turning a wrench, it's a private business and what they pay their employees is none of my concern. But because of that high level of bennies and lack of long term product planning is now causing gm to fold and they want MY money to bail them out?
And yes, honda does have the right strategy for high gas prices, in 1973 and in 2008. The question should be framed "who SOLD more 30 mpg vehicles".
I don't know what the contractors drove but I do know caterpillar played a big role in building my house, should I bail them out too if they're in trouble? Come to think of it, they'll probably need a handout as well.
LOL! I applaud the effort, but the sale of 3% of GM's stake in Suzuki for $232 million pays for what, 4 HOURS of GM's cash burn?
I bet they could net more than $1 billion selling Hummer, Saab, and Saturn...let's get to the MEAT, GM! Any bailout that might be coming in the future won't be coming soon enough for you, so the MEAT has to go.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How does this sale affect Suzuki products down the road? Their entire lineup is built on GM platforms and such. Would GM sell the rights to re-badge and sell their product from here on out? If so, that would be a great decision that could add to the 232 million.
$232 million pays for what, 4 HOURS of GM's cash burn?
Based on last quarter's loss, I'd guess about 2+ days. My point isn't that that or any other 1 thing will save GM. The point is that like that sale of Suzuki stock, they can do 100 additional things to sell off, right-size, discontinue losers, and renegotiate contracts now - TO FIX THINGS THEMSELVES (unions, management, board, and suppliers).
Capitalism isn't capitalism without failure, right?
As the shirts say:
The toughest pill to swallow will be giving funds to cowardly irresponsible financiers while the rest of us will be paying for it for generations. But I suppose if war profiteers can reap windfall funds, why not everyone else...
Chrysler is asking the government for a bailout. It's laying off employees and cutting salaries. It's a company in trouble.
Oh yeah, it's also paying $30 million in bonuses to dozens of top executives. ...
In Chrysler's defense, this bonus plan was created in April of 2007. The company had no idea that its industry was headed for collapse, or that the executives it was desperate to keep might have a hard time finding employment at a Jiffy Lube at this point.
Yeah Right. If the company has no idea where it is headed in the next two years, what are these executives paid for? They could plan for their bonuses for the next two years. right :mad:
How does this sale affect Suzuki products down the road? Their entire lineup is built on GM platforms and such
No no, that's not true. Suffice it to say Suzuki will be just fine, in fact much better off for its disassociation from the poisonous influence GM has had on it.
The only product based on GM anything besides the about-to-be-discontinued Reno and Forenza is the XL7. They have already been talking about making changes to the XL7 to bring it more into the Suzuki fold, with proprietary engines and whatnot. I imagine that will happen within the next two years if GM doesn't fold first.
And steve, I said it in a different thread but I will say it here too, Edmunds is wrong-headed on this one. But I will add that it won't matter much in the end, as Ford will make it through regardless and GM won't get loans in time to save them.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thanks for the input. I don't know much about Suzuki, but I thought their portfolio consisted of GMdat stuff. Plus, I thought that new Kashiza, Kasuki, or whatever midsize that made the rounds on the Auto show curcuit was powered by the HF-V6 as well. Wonder how that'll play out since I doubt very much that Suzuki has a competitive V6 in the parts bin. They did have that inline 5 but I remember that thing was not competitive in either power nor fuel economy.
Is a bailout cheaper in the long term versus a GM and other company pension default and all the unemployment benefits the Feds will be paying out? Not to mention the devastation to Michigan and the midwest?
The answer is an emphatic "NO". Please read the previous few hundred posts, which will explain to you why this scenario of doom you are repeating is inaccurate and misleading.
1) If GM goes under, Ford and Chrysler are still in business. Most GM customers would go to similar vehicles from Ford and Chrysler, which will help them.
2) If people are going to buy 12M vehicles in 2009, then 12M vehicles will be sold. It does not matter if GM goes under, as the stakes (gain market-share) are too high for the others to miss those sales. You would see other auto plants in the U.S. increasing production.
3) If you give GM $ now, you will be basically signing on to keeping the same business model now that spends $2B/month than it takes in. No one as eveidenced by the banks and stock-market has any confidence GM will start making $ anytime soon.
4) You don't make a case for why it is a) bailout, or b) total collapse for GM. If GM declares bankruptcy then they can setup a new system for making and selling cars - one that is the right-size and is profitable.
The "devastation to Michigan and the midwest" is nothing more than Bulloney - promoted by those who will GAIN. It is an unrealistic scenario meant to frighten people into supporting a great give away of taxpayer money.
If you or I could get $25B or $50B for our company or union members, what sort of stories do you think we'd create? That's a lot of money not to fib a little? The unions and corporate lobbyists are all looking for a little payback from the election, and this could be it. All a few of the Dem. politicians have to do, is say those fibs and stories are valid, and now they have reason to throw $ back to their "donating friends". :mad:
GM probably won't be able to get financing in Chapter 11. I have heard that nothing as big as GM has ever been allowed to fail by the US government. It may cause a worse descent into recession.
Home based car makers produce higher quality jobs for Americans than the transplants do, and the flow of money back to the mother country is back to the US. Most of the Honda employees in the US will probably be line workers, not the designers/engineers that GM has.
You may want to check on the tax breaks and benefits paid for by the State of Indiana...
Do a google search on the discussion.
I recall when Ford built a plant in Ohio the governor forgave the $500,000 tap in fee for the water system. That cost, of course, was carried by the rest of us in the water district. But that wasn't paid for by the federal government... but it was paid for by the people.
I drove by it on the day they built the first car there. A bailout went to Honda. Honda got to bid for the highest bailout and Indiana won.
Purpose of the plant is to replace only 200,000 of the Civics that Honda currently imports to US annually. In other words, Honda wants to stop paying tarriffs on 200,000 more cars per year. America gets 2000 jobs that do not require college. 790 robots are in the plant. They don't get pensions.
Chapter 11 is the only way I see GM doing what is necessary to become profitable. GM needs to start over (cut many jobs, close plants, and consolidate). A bail out will come with restrictions on how many jobs are lost, and how many plants close, which IMO, is a Big Mistake. At GM's current size, they will never sell enough cars to make a profit. Chapter 11 would force a total redo, and renegotiation of all contracts. It's the only way. The Airlines did it, and so can GM. That's how the system works.
I agree that Chapter 11 is the only real option, but I am pretty pessimistic that it would be sucessful.
People won't buy cars from a company in bankruptcy...at least not enough of them to keep the thing afloat. If you think GM had a hard time selling retail cars at respectable prices now, wait until they're trying to sell with a big red "B" on their chest.
Airlines can do it because customers are only risking several hundred dollars on a ticket. Sure, losing it if the company goes belly up would be annoying, but buying a $30k car, and then having no warranty would be a risk most would be unwilling to take.
I'm not a big fan of bailouts, but it seems that bailouts are all too common these days. Obviously the TARP and AIG bailout monies are fresh in our minds, but the feds bailout people all the time, and not just corporations. Whenever FEMA responds to a diaster, it's a bailout of sorts. Earned Income tax credits are bailouts. How about we just let nature take its course.
Limit the salaries of the executives and the UAW workers. The greed of all these people along with poor designs and the US automakers inability to predict the market, or change quickly when the market changes, is what has killed the US car companies.
I live in MI and it would have a HUGE impact on this state if GM went under. So many job shops, suppliers, restaurants, bars and other businesses couldn’t survive without GM. If you think it won’t make an impact on your life if you don’t live in the Midwest then you don’t know much about jobs and the economy.
I haven’t bought a US made vehicle in seven years. I’m so tired of supporting greedy UAW workers who make good money while trying to do the least amount of work. My job has taken me to many plants where I have witnessed first hand how “hard” UAW workers really work. I agree that the executives make waaaaaaay too much money and that should definitely be addressed. I just don’t think a guy running a Hi-lo needs to make $30 an hour and then have the balls to demand more. Unions were created for a very good reason but unfortunately they have been corrupted and are now part of the problem.
WASHINGTON: As top Detroit auto executives prepared to make their most intense plea for aid to Congress on Tuesday, General Motors also pleaded Monday for a billion-euro credit guarantee from the German government to help its Opel subsidiary.
The request, greeted with some skepticism in Germany - Chancellor Angela Merkel promised a reply by Christmas
Why not have the Feds just guarantee auto loans to help the Big 3. They claim they cannot sell cars because of the credit crunch. Make loans available for qualified car buyers. See if there are any around. I cannot believe someone with decent credit cannot get a car loan right now. Some dealers are offering .9% loans.
That was one of the reasons for the bailout to start with. Loosening up credit.
They claim they cannot sell cars because of the credit crunch. Credit crunch doesn't stop people from buying Japanese and German cars. If GM can build something like bmw335i or G37; or may be like FX35 or X6 than I'll be first in the line. Nissan going to sell 370Z pretty soon, any competitors from GM or Ford?
give them the bailout with strings attached. they may turn it down because they want to keep their excessive executive compensation. Chances are they will take the bailout because when your losing billions a month, exec comp is not on the top ten causes list. billions a month vs millions a year is a 1 to a hundred ratio.
Give them the bailout to help get thru the tough times. Now is not the time to kill off an industry that touches 1 in every 10 americans. Three years from now when the real estate thing has blown over then GM can fail.
Notice how wall street waits for an upbeat day to announce bad news they have been sitting on for weeks or months? We need to use the same strategy to get through this recession.
I want my stocks to bounce back. I want my house to appreciate. I want the economy to bustle so my job is secure. I want a job waiting for my son when he graduates college. I want my health to be good. These are more important than wanting a failure of the industry I don't work in.
GM will survive if gas stays at $2, they stay out of bankruptcy, the workers take concessions, the recession is shallow and short, and most important, people try their products and discover how the gap is gone.
Every day there is more breaking news, proof Wall Street's greed is already back to "business as usual" and in denial, grabbing more and more from the new "Bailouts-R-Us" bonanza of free taxpayer cash and credits, like two-year-olds in a toy store at Christmas -- anything to boost earnings, profits and stock prices, and keep those bonuses and salaries flowing, anything to blow a new bubble.
The Big3 issue makes the list at #18, though they don't appear to be in any particular order. I suggest we stop adding to this list, and start removing them. Our information on this bailout issue, is being heavily influenced by some of #22, who pays some of the media lobbyists of #22, to run these expert articles in their publications!
Dave8679 - I wish I were as optimistic as you are, that this will just blow over. I think this coziness between DC and the rich and powerful of this country, has done far more damage then can simply be fixed, as pointed out in the above article.
I see a lot of "Wants" and "If's" there. I don't think a money infusion will help GM for long because they are too far behind to recover quickly. Trust and loyalty have to be earned over time and can't be purchased at any price.
A GM dealer in my area has just thrown in the towel and announced they are closing down for good..... the fallout has already started, and no one knows where rock bottom is at this point.
Any comments? I thought that it was an interesting set of speculations, although by no means the ONLY set of speculations that make sense at this point in time.
One thing that has to be considered is that absent a BK filing by one or more of the detroiters the UAW don't have to do one single thing. It has 3 legally binding contracts that the courts must uphold. That's our system of laws.
Even if the detroiters do get bailout funds the UAW has no legal imperative to do anything more than to show up for work every day, follow the rules of the contract explicitly and do their jobs. Congress cannot put a string attached to the bailout that the UAW must renegotiate. It doesn't have the legal power to cancel a valid contract.
Even if the detroiters do get bailout funds the UAW has no legal imperative to do anything more than to show up for work every day, follow the rules of the contract explicitly and do their jobs.
And does "doing their jobs" include showing up every day to sit around and do nothing if an employee is currently in the Jobs Bank program? Anyone know how many UAW employees today, Nov 18, idling around in Jobs Bank status?
Recall reading an article in WSJ within last couple years about Jobs Bank and was amazed about the largesse of Management. Top Management of Big 3 have been inept in many regards over last 4 decades, including agreeing to ridiculous labor demands. A government bailout, without chapter 11, would apparently allow Jobs Bank to continue.
kdhspyder: Congress cannot put a string attached to the bailout that the UAW must renegotiate. It doesn't have the legal power to cancel a valid contract.
Congress can tell UAW leadership, "Reopen the contract and make concessions or there won't be a bailout package." There is no law saying that the federal government MUST bail out any automaker.
That is what Congress did regarding the original Chrysler bailout.
Sure the union and management can continue to fight each other; fighting over thloot while the ship sinks. The management doesn't have to change their pay or cut divisions, or sell anything. They can choose to do nothing, and kill their business. Or they can get together and make the tough decisions on what gets cut to turn their business around to profitable tomorrow, not next year. They can decide to rip up their old contracts and write new ones today!!
There's nothing stopping them from changing their own rules; but it's easy to keep their rules and ask the taxpayer for help, isn't it? They can save themselves if they want.
The government has to be very careful how much "help" they give to the once big 3 because there are other automakers manufacturing cars in the US now, unlike back when Chrysler got help from the government. It's not like Americans won't have cars to drive tomorrow if any of the big 3 go under.
GM has the power to fix it's own problems and do what should have been done years ago by paring down it's product offerings to be more competitive. There will be some fallout, but it's time for GM to bite the bullet and do what it needs to do for survival instead of begging the government for a handout. GM must now adapt or die.
The following is your typical article covering the talks in DC today. But if I were a reporter I'd like to find out how the management and UAW representatives travelled. Private jet? 1st or Business Class? What hotel and class of room? What's the typical meal they have? I bet it was "above average" of what we'd spend. Of course they can do this; but when you're cutting down the pens in inventory and begging for $25B for this year alone ...
What does anyone guess their travel choices are like? Are they sharing a suite at the Super 8? eating at McD's, and sharing cab rides? Coach flight?
Does anybody out there have any memory of the reason given for the establishment of the DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY during the Carter Administration? Anybody? Anything? No? Didn't think so. Bottom line . . we've spent several hundred billion dollars in support of an agency the reason for which not one person who reads this can remember. Ready? It was very simple, and at the time everybody thought it very appropriate.
The Department of Energy was instituted 8-04-1977 TO LESSEN OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL. HEY, PRETTY EFFICIENT, HUH?
AND NOW IT'S 2008, 31 YEARS LATER, AND THE BUDGET FOR THIS NECESSARY DEPARTMENT IS AT $24.2 BILLION A YEAR, THEY HAVE 16,000 FEDERAL EMPLOYEES, AND APPROXIMATELY 100,000 CONTRACT EMPLOYEES AND LOOK AT THE JOB THEY HAVE DONE!
THIS IS WHERE YOU SLAP YOUR FOREHEAD AND SAY 'WHAT WAS I THINKING?' Ah yes, good ole bureaucracy. And now we are going to turn the Banking system & the Little Three auto makers over to them? God Help us. :sick:
Once we had cheap oil again, no American cared, Joe Six Pack likes his F150. Don't pin this one on the government. Americans like cheap gas, they don't like gas taxes. Chickens are coming home to roost.
Americans like cheap gas, they don't like gas taxes.
Absolutely true. Especially, given the fact that we've bailed some oil producing nations out of the deep end of the pool (Kuwait, Iraq come immediately to mind.
While there's plenty of blame to go around (UAW and the Big 3 went hand in hand down this road), the current issues have little to do with oil. If that were the case, Escalades should be selling like crazy right now.
Car companies, and the consumers, got used to "EZ credit". It ain't so easy now. Thus, no one's buying....even if they wanted to.
How crazy would you all think I am if I was to tell you that I think if the bail out was approved that Ford would decline it? Then go on to say the only reason they are on the hill right now is to support GM because Ford understands they need GM to stay afloat.
If they were able to do that imagine the positive spin it would put on the Motor Company.
We have cash, we have a huge line of credit taken out a few years ago we have not touched and as good of product in all segments as any one, with better product right around the corner.
Just imagine the truck loads of crow I could bring here for allot of you to eat
I remember the DOE. They funneled a lot of money to Alaska when I lived there (some was Exxon overcharge settlement money). They subsidized an energy audit, furnace upgrade, caulk and insulation for me. The window retrofit didn't pan out so I didn't go there.
I owned a house in Anchorage for about 15 years and my electric and gas bill was lower when I sold it than it was when I moved in. A friend of mine just got a house up there and his energy audit is scheduled for later this month, so I guess the DOE funding is still out there.
Comments
We have all but destroyed them though many of us have what we have because of them.
These things are not Globally competitive: pensions, sick time, O/T, vacations, health care, along with taking home 75% of your paycheck.
You don't get these from globally competitive companies with Asian factories.
We expect GM to deliver us the Malibu which is on par with the Accord, but then we will not consider it for purchase, we ignore it and make untrue remarks about the mgmt of GM, and we want the demise of the company because we are jealous that a midwesterner is making $75 an hour making cars. Here in the Midwest, we did not create the housing bubble that ruined the entire country and caused a Trillion dollar bailout. To object to the $25 Billion loan to the automakers probably means you are happy with your import and would be willing to see the demise of pensions, O/T and the like. Honda has the right strategy for $4 gas? GM does not? There is plenty of ignorance in that set of statements. Who makes more 30 mpg models? Who makes the vehicles that were used to build the place you live at?
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/GM-sell-3-Suzuki-stake/story.aspx?guid=%7B- A81BE283%2DA227%2D4B24%2D92B4%2DF7D021CF09AE%7D
Now if GM will sell Saab and Hummer, and their stake in GMAC ... they won't need the taxpayers help. Cut, cut, cut, and renegotiate all contracts or tell your suppliers and workers there won't be anything to negotiate, if you don't like the reduced terms.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-11-16-gm-cuts-expenses-bailout_N.htm
So after the Big 3 have spent years living it up wasting money, I'm to feel sorry for them because they are nearly broke now? And they're going to put on a good show now of being sorry. I'm sorry - if my son spends his $100 paycheck on Sat. night, I'm not giving him $ for lunch and gas on Mon. morning!
Actually, that was me.
Unemployment benefits paid out, help no one, they are merely non recoverable govenment expenditures. Batting 1000.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you disagreeing with me? Do you think giving money to pay for all of a company's expenditures, including salaries, is better than paying a very very small percentage of that in unemployment payments?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And yes, honda does have the right strategy for high gas prices, in 1973 and in 2008. The question should be framed "who SOLD more 30 mpg vehicles".
I don't know what the contractors drove but I do know caterpillar played a big role in building my house, should I bail them out too if they're in trouble? Come to think of it, they'll probably need a handout as well.
The market place punishes bad decisions.
Socialism punishes hard work, thrift and entrepreneurship.
Some might say that the economic resources will be reallocated to their most effective use if we let the market work.
I bet they could net more than $1 billion selling Hummer, Saab, and Saturn...let's get to the MEAT, GM! Any bailout that might be coming in the future won't be coming soon enough for you, so the MEAT has to go.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It did for me when I bought distressed businesses during my productive years.
All of the purchases were managed into profitability & large bonuses were issued accordingly.
The threat of a government bailout is what deters letting the market work. Business buzards can't compete with the taxpayers backed bailout.
Let the market work w/o any bailouts! :mad:
Based on last quarter's loss, I'd guess about 2+ days. My point isn't that that or any other 1 thing will save GM. The point is that like that sale of Suzuki stock, they can do 100 additional things to sell off, right-size, discontinue losers, and renegotiate contracts now - TO FIX THINGS THEMSELVES (unions, management, board, and suppliers).
As the shirts say:
The toughest pill to swallow will be giving funds to cowardly irresponsible financiers while the rest of us will be paying for it for generations. But I suppose if war profiteers can reap windfall funds, why not everyone else...
Oh yeah, it's also paying $30 million in bonuses to dozens of top executives.
...
In Chrysler's defense, this bonus plan was created in April of 2007. The company had no idea that its industry was headed for collapse, or that the executives it was desperate to keep might have a hard time finding employment at a Jiffy Lube at this point.
link title
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Yeah Right. If the company has no idea where it is headed in the next two years, what are these executives paid for? They could plan for their bonuses for the next two years. right :mad:
Congress: Vote Yes on Automaker Loans (AutoObserver)
No no, that's not true. Suffice it to say Suzuki will be just fine, in fact much better off for its disassociation from the poisonous influence GM has had on it.
The only product based on GM anything besides the about-to-be-discontinued Reno and Forenza is the XL7. They have already been talking about making changes to the XL7 to bring it more into the Suzuki fold, with proprietary engines and whatnot. I imagine that will happen within the next two years if GM doesn't fold first.
And steve, I said it in a different thread but I will say it here too, Edmunds is wrong-headed on this one. But I will add that it won't matter much in the end, as Ford will make it through regardless and GM won't get loans in time to save them.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Oh, this is gonna be even more interesting than it's been so far.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
1) If GM goes under, Ford and Chrysler are still in business. Most GM customers would go to similar vehicles from Ford and Chrysler, which will help them.
2) If people are going to buy 12M vehicles in 2009, then 12M vehicles will be sold. It does not matter if GM goes under, as the stakes (gain market-share) are too high for the others to miss those sales. You would see other auto plants in the U.S. increasing production.
3) If you give GM $ now, you will be basically signing on to keeping the same business model now that spends $2B/month than it takes in. No one as eveidenced by the banks and stock-market has any confidence GM will start making $ anytime soon.
4) You don't make a case for why it is a) bailout, or b) total collapse for GM. If GM declares bankruptcy then they can setup a new system for making and selling cars - one that is the right-size and is profitable.
The "devastation to Michigan and the midwest" is nothing more than Bulloney - promoted by those who will GAIN. It is an unrealistic scenario meant to frighten people into supporting a great give away of taxpayer money.
If you or I could get $25B or $50B for our company or union members, what sort of stories do you think we'd create? That's a lot of money not to fib a little? The unions and corporate lobbyists are all looking for a little payback from the election, and this could be it. All a few of the Dem. politicians have to do, is say those fibs and stories are valid, and now they have reason to throw $ back to their "donating friends". :mad:
They will be building the Honda Civic in Indiana.
How is this fair to Honda and anyone else looking to build in the US when they have to go up against a subsidized competitor?
this makes me want to buy Honda and not GM
You may want to check on the tax breaks and benefits paid for by the State of Indiana...
Do a google search on the discussion.
I recall when Ford built a plant in Ohio the governor forgave the $500,000 tap in fee for the water system. That cost, of course, was carried by the rest of us in the water district. But that wasn't paid for by the federal government... but it was paid for by the people.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Purpose of the plant is to replace only 200,000 of the Civics that Honda currently imports to US annually. In other words, Honda wants to stop paying tarriffs on 200,000 more cars per year. America gets 2000 jobs that do not require college. 790 robots are in the plant. They don't get pensions.
People won't buy cars from a company in bankruptcy...at least not enough of them to keep the thing afloat. If you think GM had a hard time selling retail cars at respectable prices now, wait until they're trying to sell with a big red "B" on their chest.
Airlines can do it because customers are only risking several hundred dollars on a ticket. Sure, losing it if the company goes belly up would be annoying, but buying a $30k car, and then having no warranty would be a risk most would be unwilling to take.
I'm not a big fan of bailouts, but it seems that bailouts are all too common these days. Obviously the TARP and AIG bailout monies are fresh in our minds, but the feds bailout people all the time, and not just corporations. Whenever FEMA responds to a diaster, it's a bailout of sorts. Earned Income tax credits are bailouts. How about we just let nature take its course.
All that, and I'm actually a loyal GM customer.
I live in MI and it would have a HUGE impact on this state if GM went under. So many job shops, suppliers, restaurants, bars and other businesses couldn’t survive without GM. If you think it won’t make an impact on your life if you don’t live in the Midwest then you don’t know much about jobs and the economy.
I haven’t bought a US made vehicle in seven years. I’m so tired of supporting greedy UAW workers who make good money while trying to do the least amount of work. My job has taken me to many plants where I have witnessed first hand how “hard” UAW workers really work. I agree that the executives make waaaaaaay too much money and that should definitely be addressed. I just don’t think a guy running a Hi-lo needs to make $30 an hour and then have the balls to demand more. Unions were created for a very good reason but unfortunately they have been corrupted and are now part of the problem.
We need government intervention and oversight.
It's called adapting to change, which happens in everyone's life....adapt or die.
FAIL.
WASHINGTON: As top Detroit auto executives prepared to make their most intense plea for aid to Congress on Tuesday, General Motors also pleaded Monday for a billion-euro credit guarantee from the German government to help its Opel subsidiary.
The request, greeted with some skepticism in Germany - Chancellor Angela Merkel promised a reply by Christmas
That was one of the reasons for the bailout to start with. Loosening up credit.
Give them the bailout to help get thru the tough times. Now is not the time to kill off an industry that touches 1 in every 10 americans. Three years from now when the real estate thing has blown over then GM can fail.
Notice how wall street waits for an upbeat day to announce bad news they have been sitting on for weeks or months? We need to use the same strategy to get through this recession.
I want my stocks to bounce back. I want my house to appreciate. I want the economy to bustle so my job is secure. I want a job waiting for my son when he graduates college. I want my health to be good. These are more important than wanting a failure of the industry I don't work in.
GM will survive if gas stays at $2, they stay out of bankruptcy, the workers take concessions, the recession is shallow and short, and most important, people try their products and discover how the gap is gone.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Well-Great-Depression-2-2011/story.aspx?gu- - - - - id=%7BB28B49B5%2DEFD1%2D4941%2DB57E%2DA2BA1545BA09%7D
The Big3 issue makes the list at #18, though they don't appear to be in any particular order. I suggest we stop adding to this list, and start removing them. Our information on this bailout issue, is being heavily influenced by some of #22, who pays some of the media lobbyists of #22, to run these expert articles in their publications!
Dave8679 - I wish I were as optimistic as you are, that this will just blow over. I think this coziness between DC and the rich and powerful of this country, has done far more damage then can simply be fixed, as pointed out in the above article.
A GM dealer in my area has just thrown in the towel and announced they are closing down for good..... the fallout has already started, and no one knows where rock bottom is at this point.
We Are All Flint Michigan Now
Any comments? I thought that it was an interesting set of speculations, although by no means the ONLY set of speculations that make sense at this point in time.
Even if the detroiters do get bailout funds the UAW has no legal imperative to do anything more than to show up for work every day, follow the rules of the contract explicitly and do their jobs. Congress cannot put a string attached to the bailout that the UAW must renegotiate. It doesn't have the legal power to cancel a valid contract.
And does "doing their jobs" include showing up every day to sit around and do nothing if an employee is currently in the Jobs Bank program? Anyone know how many UAW employees today, Nov 18, idling around in Jobs Bank status?
Recall reading an article in WSJ within last couple years about Jobs Bank and was amazed about the largesse of Management. Top Management of Big 3 have been inept in many regards over last 4 decades, including agreeing to ridiculous labor demands. A government bailout, without chapter 11, would apparently allow Jobs Bank to continue.
Congress can tell UAW leadership, "Reopen the contract and make concessions or there won't be a bailout package." There is no law saying that the federal government MUST bail out any automaker.
That is what Congress did regarding the original Chrysler bailout.
Sure the union and management can continue to fight each other; fighting over thloot while the ship sinks. The management doesn't have to change their pay or cut divisions, or sell anything. They can choose to do nothing, and kill their business. Or they can get together and make the tough decisions on what gets cut to turn their business around to profitable tomorrow, not next year. They can decide to rip up their old contracts and write new ones today!!
There's nothing stopping them from changing their own rules; but it's easy to keep their rules and ask the taxpayer for help, isn't it? They can save themselves if they want.
GM has the power to fix it's own problems and do what should have been done years ago by paring down it's product offerings to be more competitive. There will be some fallout, but it's time for GM to bite the bullet and do what it needs to do for survival instead of begging the government for a handout. GM must now adapt or die.
What does anyone guess their travel choices are like? Are they sharing a suite at the Super 8? eating at McD's, and sharing cab rides? Coach flight?
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-11-17-automakers-bailout-impact_N.htm
for the establishment of the DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY during the
Carter Administration? Anybody? Anything? No?
Didn't think so.
Bottom line . . we've spent several hundred billion
dollars in support of an agency the reason for which not one
person who reads this can remember.
Ready? It was very simple, and at the time everybody
thought it very appropriate.
The Department of Energy was instituted 8-04-1977 TO LESSEN
OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL. HEY, PRETTY EFFICIENT, HUH?
AND NOW IT'S 2008, 31 YEARS LATER, AND THE BUDGET FOR
THIS NECESSARY DEPARTMENT IS AT $24.2 BILLION A YEAR, THEY
HAVE 16,000 FEDERAL EMPLOYEES, AND APPROXIMATELY 100,000
CONTRACT EMPLOYEES AND LOOK AT THE JOB THEY HAVE DONE!
THIS IS WHERE YOU SLAP YOUR FOREHEAD AND SAY 'WHAT WAS I THINKING?'
Ah yes, good ole bureaucracy. And now we are going to turn the Banking system & the Little Three auto makers over to them? God Help us. :sick:
Absolutely true. Especially, given the fact that we've bailed some oil producing nations out of the deep end of the pool (Kuwait, Iraq come immediately to mind.
While there's plenty of blame to go around (UAW and the Big 3 went hand in hand down this road), the current issues have little to do with oil. If that were the case, Escalades should be selling like crazy right now.
Car companies, and the consumers, got used to "EZ credit". It ain't so easy now. Thus, no one's buying....even if they wanted to.
If they were able to do that imagine the positive spin it would put on the Motor Company.
We have cash, we have a huge line of credit taken out a few years ago we have not touched and as good of product in all segments as any one, with better product right around the corner.
Just imagine the truck loads of crow I could bring here for allot of you to eat
I owned a house in Anchorage for about 15 years and my electric and gas bill was lower when I sold it than it was when I moved in. A friend of mine just got a house up there and his energy audit is scheduled for later this month, so I guess the DOE funding is still out there.